Critical Duty 9mm


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beeb173
April 20, 2012, 02:31 PM
should i be worried that these rounds wont expand from the 3" barrel of a Kel Tec PF9? I'd rather not go to a +p round.

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Loosedhorse
April 20, 2012, 02:41 PM
They're brand-new--I just got some to try last week--so I don't think anyone's done a lot of gel tests for us yet. What Hornady says:these loads are NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handgunsSounds like they're suggesting you stick with Critical Defense for pocket guns.

bigfatdave
April 20, 2012, 03:16 PM
the only way to find out would be to test some

rcmodel
April 20, 2012, 03:24 PM
The new Critical Duty is designed for law enforcement use.

To be used in service size handguns, and shoot through car doors and auto glass.

It would be a poor choice for a PF-9.

Critical Defense is what you should have bought.

rc

Armedleprechaun
April 20, 2012, 05:57 PM
And... That ladies and gentlemen is why I carry Gold Dot short barrel rounds.

dprice3844444
April 20, 2012, 06:05 PM
still got my black talons

joecil
April 20, 2012, 06:07 PM
I also use Speer Gold Dot short barrel in my 9mm and 45 acp for SD ammo. It just plain works.

beeb173
April 20, 2012, 06:37 PM
i would like to see a test. am i making a wrong assumption that this (or any) bullet is designed to "work" at 50 yards therefore at < 20 yards it would "work" even out of a shorter barrel?

bigfatdave
April 20, 2012, 08:09 PM
still got my black talons HA!
If you need a round to generate a media frenzy and actually do nothing special, that should do it!

NWcityguy2
April 20, 2012, 08:16 PM
i would like to see a test.

Do a test then. I'm sure plenty of other people want to see a test too.

rswartsell
April 20, 2012, 08:37 PM
joecil, works for .38 spl. and .357 also. Gold Dot SB for me please.

fastbolt
April 20, 2012, 09:38 PM
When the manufacturer clearly states a particular ammunition line is NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns, I'd think that's a pretty obvious hint. http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

Besides, until such time as this new design/load has been subjected to rigorous outside testing, and has actually acquired a history of successful application as a working service load, I'd not be ready to discontinue my use of other modern, well-developed and established defensive hollowpoint loads. That's just me, though.

beeb173
April 21, 2012, 08:06 AM
Do a test then. I'm sure plenty of other people want to see a test too.
I've never done one so the results would be pretty unreliable.

kokapelli
April 22, 2012, 10:16 AM
I don't have any experience with it, but you might want to checkout this article.http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

beeb173
April 22, 2012, 12:04 PM
I don't have any experience with it, but you might want to checkout this article.http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
are you referring to the top article cause that's about critical defense not critical duty.

19-3Ben
April 22, 2012, 12:17 PM
still got my black talons

And what does the old Black Talon load will do that modern ammunition won't do as well or better?

kokapelli
April 22, 2012, 12:21 PM
are you referring to the top article cause that's about critical defense not critical duty.
I just put that in because rcmodel mentioned Critical Defense.

cluznar
April 24, 2012, 07:10 AM
I use Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr in my Ruger SR9c for carry.

smalls
April 24, 2012, 08:56 AM
Which is a completely different round than the Critical Duty.

Critical Duty was supposed to address the shortcomings of the Critical Defense. IE; the light bullets, under penetration, and not being able to go through glass and car doors. It was meant for duty work, out of duty sized guns.

Sig Bill
April 29, 2012, 10:57 PM
Try the Winchester Personal Defense 147 gr HPs. It's what I carried when I had my PF9. They loses less velocity than the lighter bullets from a short barrel. Sometimes I carried Win PDX1 124 +Ps instead of the 147s.

I'm a member on KTOG and some reported that they can't shoot 147s out of their PF9s so you'll have to test yours.

dubya450
April 29, 2012, 11:15 PM
Stick with critical defense or similar, the critical duty is loaded for "duty" sized pistols. For short barrel concealed carry ammo i like the speer gold dot short barrel loads.

ohwell
April 29, 2012, 11:42 PM
I've shot both the 9mm and 40 out of my Rugers SR9C and SR40C, they shoot just fine those are 3 1/2 inch barrel guns. I didnt do expansion tests but there are one or 2 on youtube. I wouldnt be afraid of using them at all. A lot of what is said is for marketing, people use a lot of ammo for self defense marketed as Law Enforcement Ammunition. They run out and buy it just because it is designated for Law Enforcement. Smart advertising.

B!ngo
April 30, 2012, 12:28 AM
So, just looking for a point of edification. Most of my handguns have barrels ranging from 4.1-4.25 (one is 3.6). For the longer ones, should the Defense round still be used? Or is the Duty round 'better'. Or is it just that the 'Defense' round won't work properly in shorter-barreled weapons?
That is, for longer barrels, does one have the luxury of choice, based on likely use (not liking how this is worded but you get the point I presume)? Accepting that my likely, no uniform use is shooting paper where I use FMJ's.
B

AdamSean
April 30, 2012, 12:10 PM
I don't feel bad about using them in a barrel 3.5" or longer. But I don't think you will get the same data from a barrel less than that such as my Beretta Nano, a Ruger LCP or a Kel Tec PF-9. I would use thebCritical Defense or other ammunition designed for short barrels. I still like a heavy 147 gr in 9mm so I am usingbthe Hornady TAP FPD. Still looking for some Gold Dots though.

M1key
April 30, 2012, 04:32 PM
And what does the old Black Talon load will do that modern ammunition won't do as well or better?
What will "new" ammo do that older proven ammo won't do? There ain't no magic bullet. They must still penetrate deep enough and hit the "kill switch".

Some good ones here courtesy of Dr Gary Roberts:

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)



M

ohwell
April 30, 2012, 07:04 PM
I do think the Critical Defense would be more appropriate for self defense use as you would have a hard time proving you couldnt retreat in most cases when shooting through car doors or glass .

smalls
April 30, 2012, 07:53 PM
It was designed to reliably expand with the velocity it gets out of a "duty sized" barrel. I don't know what they consider duty sized, but I can bet it's not 3.5". It might expand, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, when there's so many other ammo choices available. Especially when some of those are designed for short barrel velocities.

beeb173
May 1, 2012, 04:43 PM
critical duty comes in boxes of 25 instead of 20 for my +p winchester rounds i usually carry. so the reason i asked was because its a non +p round thats less expensive (or the same price for 5 extra rounds). the short barrel specific ammo that i've seen is all +p. i guess until someone does a test out of a PF9 into gel or wet news paper, i wont know for sure.

smalls
May 1, 2012, 06:43 PM
You could do a test. Save up them milk jugs!

Shawn Dodson
May 1, 2012, 08:04 PM
critical duty comes in boxes of 25 instead of 20 for my +p winchester rounds i usually carry. so the reason i asked was because its a non +p round thats less expensive (or the same price for 5 extra rounds). the short barrel specific ammo that i've seen is all +p. i guess until someone does a test out of a PF9 into gel or wet news paper, i wont know for sure.

Federal 147gr HST (standard pressure) performs well out of short barrels. Bonus is you can purchase 50 rounds for $27 (plus shipping) from Streicher's Police Supply - http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-9HST

Skylerbone
May 1, 2012, 08:38 PM
It's the complete burn of powder that makes the biggest difference with longer barrels but that is dependent on the propellent used. Different barrels will also perform differently depending on slight variations in diameter.

If the bullet itself is a proven design, say a Gold Dot, a simple chronograph check through the specific pistol will tell you what you need to know. If the test velocities are listed they can be verified.

kokapelli
May 1, 2012, 08:45 PM
I don't care how fast the bullet is, how heavy it is or how much energy it has.

The only thing I care about it is how it performs in gelatin and how it works in my pistols.

Skylerbone
May 1, 2012, 10:50 PM
If you know Gold Dots for example, have been tested and at what velocity they performed at properly then the reasonable expectation is that they will perform similarly in your pistol if your specific pistol shoots them at the tested velocity.

In the case of testing any pre-packaged ammo velocity is the only portion of testing that matters. A Glock with 200,000 rounds through the barrel won't shoot the same as a brand new custom 15" test barrel. If velocity is stated, you need only know what your pistol's velocity is with the same ammo. Let the big companies buy gelatin, buy a chrony and reload your own loads for pennies not dollars. It will pay for itself. My preferred load is the XTP at around $23/100 in 9mm, $26/100 in .45ACP

abq87120
May 1, 2012, 11:57 PM
You can shoot an M79 40mm through a 3" barrel. It's not likely to develop enough muzzle velocity to do a whole lot of damage. I got the Critical Defense for my wife's LCP in the summer. She practices head shots mostly with it. At ten feet. During the winter, I load FMJ to make sure the bullet will make it through a coat. Like stabbing them with an ice pick as I read in another thread.

bigfatdave
May 3, 2012, 09:10 AM
It put a huge hole through my test target which means it put a lot of energy into the target and had to spread a good bit to produce a hole like that.are you claiming that the Critical Duty round expands while in transit to the target?

TarDevil
May 3, 2012, 09:33 AM
*It put a huge hole through my test target
What was your test target? This ammo shouldn't expand in anything but hydraulic medium, so if your target was something other, I wouldn't be impressed with your results

Skylerbone
May 3, 2012, 03:26 PM
Too many people conceptualize a paper target and a 2-D hole vs. something like a wound cavity or a block of wood with a small entry hole and a large exit hole.

bigfatdave
May 3, 2012, 04:26 PM
two things
1 - You might want to specify when your target is something other than paper, particularly when you're shooting through it. And what are you using? Thin sheet steel or lightweight angle iron? (I use cast-off pots and pans from Goodwill, I'm aware of semi-disposable metallic targets, I just don't generally test defensive ammo on them, as water jugs are more fun)

2 - Expansion on contact with a hard barrier actually doesn't have much to do with expansion through hydraulic pressure while a round travels through meat, although it is interesting to a degree ... have any pictures of the .40S&W critical duty holes in your steel target? A comparison picture of FMJ vs critical duty would be especially interesting.

PT92
May 3, 2012, 11:33 PM
should i be worried that these rounds wont expand from the 3" barrel of a Kel Tec PF9? I'd rather not go to a +p round.
I would like to see a gelatin test that proves this?

-Cheers

Sig Bill
May 4, 2012, 11:29 PM
Long ago I thought hollow points expanded when it left the barrel. You can blame tv for that, seeing the guys get knocked down on their asses. :rolleyes:

Skylerbone
May 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
Gee I've never seen anyone talk about how a bullet expands through a piece of paper. Can you cite a reference?

I was explaining that you weren't shooting at paper for those who missed it. Nowhere in my posting did I claim you were shooting at paper, it was in response to BFD's post. Good to see your comprehension was as acute there as it was when you read the forum rules.

PS: I can see by your general attitude you'll not be my future reference for biblical enlightenment.

kokapelli
May 5, 2012, 10:45 AM
This thread is exactly why Gelatin is the only legitimate medium for testing bullet performance.

With gelatin you can see exactly what the bullet does at every depth and it also shows that without exception bullets do not expand in air.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE=fastbolt;8115086]When the manufacturer clearly states a particular ammunition line is NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns, I'd think that's a pretty obvious hint. http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense../QUOTE]

Or could it be that the company might want to continue/perpetuate sales/profits in both lines of ammo (Defense&Duty?). Hornady also clearly states that the Duty line will fire fine in ALL handguns but we do need to see tests for Duty from compact pistols pertaining to expansion (many other SD loads from other vendors as well). Worse case and you have the misfortune of a perp attack today using 9mm Duty in say, your P11, chances are the bad guy won't complain;).

-Cheers

smalls
May 5, 2012, 11:17 AM
Worse case and you have the misfortune of a perp attack today using 9mm Duty in say, your P11, chances are the bad guy won't complain.

No, worst case is that it acts like a FMJ, because it doesn't expand. It goes through the attacker (which was a non fatal, non stopping hit) and he continues his assault, and the round hits an innocent bystander.

There's a reason we expect a hollow point to expand.

Hornady also clearly states that the Duty line will fire fine in ALL handguns

Sure, it'll fire. But will it reliably expand? See above.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 11:45 AM
No, worst case is that it acts like a FMJ, because it doesn't expand. It goes through the attacker (which was a non fatal, non stopping hit) and he continues his assault, and the round hits an innocent bystander...

Agreed-but you, me, him, her etc... it's all conjecture untill we see tests. We don't know what will happen until such time that the data materializes.

FYI (and note that I do not agree with it) but in a court of law you will have a better chance defending yourself in a shooting with FMJ than you will with a so-called 'mechanically-engineered' load designed to do maximum damage to a human being. To reiterate, I think that is ridiculous but it's food for thought in the ever-increasing leftist judicial system we are seeing.

I think I should be able to use any load I see fit but good luck telling a court that.

smalls
May 5, 2012, 11:59 AM
FYI (and note that I do not agree with it) but in a court of law you will have a better chance defending yourself in a shooting with FMJ....

You've been reading too much internet myth. Please cite a legitimate reference where what kind of bullet used in a self defense shooting landed someone in prison.

If you go on trial for a self defense shooting, the prosecution thinks you are in the wrong. They will try to portray you as a murderer, by saying that you used killer bullets, and that you carry a gun to kill innocent children, etc. Your (and your attorney's) job is to prove that what you did was to save your life. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you used, or what kind of ammo it was loaded with. That's ridiculous.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 12:03 PM
You've been reading too much internet myth. Please cite a legitimate reference where what kind of bullet used in a self defense shooting landed someone in prison.

If you go on trial for a self defense shooting, the prosecution thinks you are in the wrong. They will try to portray you as a murderer, by saying that you used killer bullets, and that you carry a gun to kill innocent children, etc. Your (and your attorney's) job is to prove that what you did was to save your life. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you used, or what kind of ammo it was loaded with. That's ridiculous.

Cite a case/reference where over-penetration from a civilian likewise resulted in prosecution as that is where your concern is...?

smalls
May 5, 2012, 12:12 PM
1) 1989, Philadelphia cop is killed by .38 slugs from police passing through
a felony suspect;
2) 1990, Univ. of Arizona campus, officer A fires at suspect and bullet passes
through suspect's ARM and goes on to kill officer B;
3) 1990, So. Cal., L.A. sheriffs "became embroiled in a shootout with an armed
robber". Badguy ran into the doorway of a mom 'n pop convenience store. Mom
was behind the badguy when police fired, bullet passed through the badguy,
mom died, badguy lived.

Those are just a quick search, and are police shoots.

Obviously, though, over penetration is a concern.

You honestly don't think that if one of your bullets that leaves your gun over penetrates your target, and hits an innocent bystander, you're not going to suffer the consequences?

NYPD has paid out on several lawsuits in the past, because they didn't want to change from FMJ to JHP's, and innocent people were struck by interpenetrating rounds.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 01:09 PM
1) 1989, Philadelphia cop is killed by .38 slugs from police passing through
a felony suspect;
2) 1990, Univ. of Arizona campus, officer A fires at suspect and bullet passes
through suspect's ARM and goes on to kill officer B;
3) 1990, So. Cal., L.A. sheriffs "became embroiled in a shootout with an armed
robber". Badguy ran into the doorway of a mom 'n pop convenience store. Mom
was behind the badguy when police fired, bullet passed through the badguy,
mom died, badguy lived.

Those are just a quick search, and are police shoots.

Obviously, though, over penetration is a concern.

You honestly don't think that if one of your bullets that leaves your gun over penetrates your target, and hits an innocent bystander, you're not going to suffer the consequences?

NYPD has paid out on several lawsuits in the past, because they didn't want to change from FMJ to JHP's, and innocent people were struck by interpenetrating rounds.

Small,

I'm confused, here's your quote:


You've been reading too much internet myth. Please cite a legitimate reference where what kind of bullet used in a self defense shooting landed someone in prison.

followed by:


You honestly don't think that if one of your bullets that leaves your gun over penetrates your target, and hits an innocent bystander, you're not going to suffer the consequences?


So which is it according to you, we should or should not be concerned about "what bullet leaves our gun" as you say...:confused:.

Please clarify.

-Cheers

smalls
May 5, 2012, 01:49 PM
If they decide to try and scrutinize your choice of bullet, they will lose that argument in court.

But you will be charged with the accidental killing, if you over penetrate and hit someone else. Yes, even if you use a JHP and it fails to expand, causing it to act like a FMJ and over penetrate.

By your way of thinking, why don't police use FMJ's?










(Answer- Over penetration issues ;))

smalls
May 5, 2012, 01:54 PM
So, do you have any references?

Skylerbone
May 5, 2012, 01:55 PM
Clearly as it pertains to the intended target. In those cases it was a matter of collateral damage to other than intended that was the key. Yes over-penetration occurs, another basic safety rule we are taught about what lies beyond your target. Another reason to train and prepare for that scenario. That includes expanding hollow points in some cases but again, we do not have the leisure of assumption when there are bystanders in the line of fire-the call is no shot. It's an assessment.

To reiterate, no one, save a single sarcastic post, claimed bullets expand in flight or after hitting a paper target. To say gelatin is the only valid test medium is short-sighted. How about a pig carcass or a body? If Hornady performs their tests with a valid medium eg. gelatin but does not include the velocity achieved then the test isn't valid as it pertains to your firearm. If they provide velocity then you must ascertain the velocity of your pistol with a chronograph to be certain the load will perform as stated. Whose to say the powder used isn't a slow-burning one optimized for a carbine and that a carbine wasn't the test gun? I could care less about a .45 ACP load whose bullet expands reliably at 1200 FPS if I'm only attaining 900. If no velocity is stated for testing then yes, gelatin and your pistol will achieve meaningful results.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 01:58 PM
If they decide to try and scrutinize your choice of bullet, they will lose that argument in court.

But you will be charged with the accidental killing, if you over penetrate and hit someone else. Yes, even if you use a JHP and it fails to expand, causing it to act like a FMJ and over penetrate.

By your way of thinking, why don't police use FMJ's?

(Answer- Over penetration issues ;))
Which leads me back to the caveat of which I thought I had clearly stated--we need tests to determine if, in fact, Critical Duty ammo does or does not over-penetrate out of a short barrel pistol (I have yet to find a text or video report speaking to such). Until such time, it's all conjecture.

-Cheers

smalls
May 5, 2012, 02:05 PM
Yes, it needs to be thoroughly tested. Like more than a box through a reliable media.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 02:21 PM
More than likely most of you have seen this Critical Duty Test but just in case (at least it's entertaining/interesting/thought-provoking if nothing else):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZFZFmBKa0

-Cheers

PabloJ
May 5, 2012, 02:52 PM
should i be worried that these rounds wont expand from the 3" barrel of a Kel Tec PF9? I'd rather not go to a +p round.
I will stick with the Gold Dot.

skt239
May 5, 2012, 03:22 PM
I do think the Critical Defense would be more appropriate for self defense use as you would have a hard time proving you couldnt retreat in most cases when shooting through car doors or glass .

Someone has to bring up the legal implications in any thread about ammo. So, because someone carries a bonded bullet or anything else designed to penetrate barriers, means they will automatically start shooting at car doors? I don't understand how that's relevant here.

Buy a box of critical defense to carry and save the duty as a back up or use it for practice. Problem solved.

ohwell
May 5, 2012, 07:16 PM
Someone has to bring up the legal implications in any thread about ammo. So, because someone carries a bonded bullet or anything else designed to penetrate barriers, means they will automatically start shooting at car doors? I don't understand how that's relevant here.
Its not meant to imply they will automatically use it to shoot through car doors. Its just meant to say some people wont buy ammo unless it can shoot through car doors even though it may be overkill. I'd worry more about overpenetration and whats beyond your target. The Op asked if he should be worried if this ammo will expand out of a 3 inch barrel. If something doesnt expand it normally overpenetrates.

PT92
May 5, 2012, 08:17 PM
Please post if anyone finds data resulting from a Critical Duty ballistics test via a compact CCW platform (I'm stating the obvious but I'm just sayin'). Man how I wish I lived in a rural area!

-Cheers

beeb173
May 6, 2012, 06:05 PM
how about this, i'll mail a 20 dollar gander mountain coupon to the FIRST High Roader that LEAGALLY shoots a wild hog (alive or dead) out of a PF9 or PF11 with NON +P Critical Duty 9mm and recovers the bullet AND posts it on You Tube? that has to be easy enough, right?

wristtwister
May 6, 2012, 06:09 PM
I find it interesting that everybody was calling our shop to see when we would get this ammo in, but now that we have it, nobody's buying it. Go figure...

WT

Shawn Dodson
May 7, 2012, 11:58 AM
Want to see if it expands when fired from YOUR pistol? Shoot it into water. See - http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1159342&postcount=9

In regard to "overpenetration" - anecdotal reports almost always fail to describe the wound path of the bullet through the body. Many hits aren't "center mass" in which the bullet has a long penetration path. Many hits are along the periphery of the body in which the bullet has a short penetration path - thus a bullet that normally penetrates 8" can eaily "overpenetrate" too.

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