CCW gun too accurate?


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M-Cameron
April 20, 2012, 05:59 PM
first let me start off by saying that i am just thinking out loud, and am not preaching anything here, so bear that in mind before you post.


so i was at the range the other day, shooting one of my CCW weapons( Radom P64)......and i got some surprisingly accurate results, all of my shots were landing more or less right on top of eachother

now at first i was quite pleased....but then on the ride home i got to thinking, what if I was forced to use my weapon, and what if i did get similar performance in that situation......

you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.

so i got to thinking that it might be better to have a less accurate gun, which would pattern my shots over more of the target, rather than through the same hole.


now obviously this isnt taking into account shooting under stress, and obviously you are never going to shoot as well in an actual encounter as you would target shooting.........

but am i on to something, or have i just taken one to many hits to the head?

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Chopdoktor
April 20, 2012, 06:03 PM
I'm going with your 'too many hits to the head' theory. Unless you are the Terminator, you are going to be all over the place when shooting under stress. Even a stone-cold veteran operator isn't going to be stacking bullets in a wound channel- remember, even if you aren't moving, your target will be.

HGUNHNTR
April 20, 2012, 06:03 PM
Nice groups, and no way would I want to play the accuracy lottery just to have the potential for more wound channels. What about that first shot..even close it ain't easy under stress. If you're worried about numbers of wound channels simply aim at different spots or get a shotgun.

Way to shoot, and provocative question.

Kleanbore
April 20, 2012, 06:11 PM
Posted by M-Cameron: ....all of my shots were landing more or less right on top of eachother... what if I was forced to use my weapon, and what if i did get similar performance in that situation....you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all....so i was got to thinking that it might be better to have a less accurate gun, which would pattern my shots over more of the target, rather than through the same hole.If you train the way you practice at the range, your problem is more likely to be one of being taken out before you can get off a shot. If you are shooting slowly enough to get most of your shots in the same hole, you are most likely not shooting fast enough to react effectively in a self defense situation. A violent criminal actor who forces you to shoot in self defense will not be standing still. You will have NO CHANCE of putting all of your shots through the same wound channel.

Look in ST&T for some sources of training, and avail yourself of it.

In the interim, find a rang where rapid fire is permitted, shoot as fast as you can while keeping all of your shots on a paper pie plate at seven yards, and keep working on increasing your speed.

Owen Sparks
April 20, 2012, 06:15 PM
When people get shot at they tend to move. If they get hit they tend to move. No way will you hit the same spot twice unless he is dead. Real fights are dynamic.

Blackstone
April 20, 2012, 06:17 PM
Yeah interesting thought in theory, in practice though, pretty impractical

Paris
April 20, 2012, 06:21 PM
The target is moving. You are moving. If you DO get two hits, good for you, most people don't. They won't be in the same spot and if they are, start playing the lottery and talking to women in bars! :)

allaroundhunter
April 20, 2012, 06:26 PM
I'm with Kleanbore. If you can put two shots on top of each other like that, you aren't shooting fast enough to actually be training for a defensive encounter.

If my double-taps are under 3" inside of 10 yards during self-defense drills, I know that I am taking too long between shots (unless I get lucky).

buck460XVR
April 20, 2012, 06:37 PM
I'm going with your 'too many hits to the head' theory. Unless you are the Terminator, you are going to be all over the place when shooting under stress. Even a stone-cold veteran operator isn't going to be stacking bullets in a wound channel- remember, even if you aren't moving, your target will be.


That and the target will be in 3 dimension and not just 2 as in a piece of paper. Even if the entrance wound is the same, odds are the wound channel will be different because of even the slightest amount of angle change.

Millwright
April 20, 2012, 07:13 PM
If you can duplicate your range performance under "combat" conditions, I'll kiss your a** on national TV and give you six weeks to raise the crowd !

IMNSHO, "range performance" and "real world, when bullets are hitting near you and you're scared, (most likely to have defecated/pissed yourself), and its dark and unfamiliar with your adrenaline up to max, isn't going to happen ! >MW

banek
April 20, 2012, 07:16 PM
What I'm thinking is "Am I training to kill some one." Its what a lawyer will ask at a hearing.
If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?
I asked a cop friend of mine and he said "Empty your gun like you were scared to death and shooting at anything." After you kill the scumbag!

allaroundhunter
April 20, 2012, 07:24 PM
What I'm thinking is "Am I training to kill some one." Its what a lawyer will ask at a hearing.

I am training to defend myself, my family, and/or my friends.

Sam1911
April 20, 2012, 07:39 PM
There's a very important balance in "practical" defensive type shooting. You want to place every shot exactly where you intend it to go. However, generally an "ok" shot FAST (especially 2, 3, six, etc. "ok" shots) is much better than a "perfect" shot eventually. If every shot is a perfect hit, you're going WAAAAAY too slow. Your skill level is wherever that balance is between acceptable accuracy and speed.

Gun games are not gun fights and competition is not training, however some of the systems of scoring that are used by sports like USPSA and IDPA can give you cues about how to evaluate your practical shooting ability. They are all scored based on time, with deductions for shots that fall outside of a fairly broad hit zone. (Anything inside an 8" circle is a perfect "Down Zero" shot in IDPA.)

If you're accurate, work on FAST. If you push so hard you begin to lose shots into the periphery of a defensive target, there's the edge of your skill. Work on improving speed without sacrificing much accuracy.

banek
April 20, 2012, 07:41 PM
Yes I am training to defend myself and all the others.That's why I go to the range as much as I can. You must have missed the part about killing the scumbag.

allaroundhunter
April 20, 2012, 07:44 PM
Yes I am training to defend myself and all the others.That's why I go to the range as much as I can. You must have missed the part about killing the scumbag.

To be honest, I didn't understand the whole post.

Sauer Grapes
April 20, 2012, 07:58 PM
I see guys practicing at 5-10 yds at the club all the time. They are all wayyyy to methodical trying to shoot 2'' groups.
Practicing fundementals is fine, but at some point you have to shoot for speed and accuracy.
Good luck, keep shooting!

Sam1911
April 20, 2012, 08:02 PM
What I'm thinking is "Am I training to kill some one." Its what a lawyer will ask at a hearing.
If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?
I asked a cop friend of mine and he said "Empty your gun like you were scared to death and shooting at anything." After you kill the scumbag!

Dumping your mag into the surroundings after the threat has ceased is not a sound strategy for successfully negotiating the investigation and possible trial.

I do understand that there are police officers who make ... inadvisable ... statements frequently. He who gets legal and/or self-defense advice from a law enforcement officer might as well seek the same in fortune cookies.

The Lone Haranguer
April 20, 2012, 08:37 PM
Tight grouping tells you that you and the gun (mostly you) are consistent in placing your shots where you want them to go. :) Use these abilities to your advantage. For example, increased accuracy might make the difference between scoring or missing with a critical shot. Many people struggle to keep any shots on the target.

you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.

I don't entirely buy into this. First, it is unlikely that your shot is going to go through the exact same hole. Second, there is nothing wrong with multiple hits in a vital organ such as the heart. To use an analogy, consider that the devastating wounds inflicted by shotguns are an effect of the pellets being closer together. This is why you see extra-tight-patterning chokes in specialized turkey shotguns, for example.

igousigloo
April 20, 2012, 10:15 PM
sounds like someone is dreaming in color!

hso
April 20, 2012, 10:52 PM
you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.

Stationary paper POI isn't going to be the same as moving target POI so you don't have to worry about it.

bhesler
April 20, 2012, 10:53 PM
... If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?


Not necessarily. A CWP holder in PA was convicted of reckless endangerment after returning fire and sending a bullet through the window of a daycare center. He was sentenced to 1-2 years. Can't find anything on his appeal. Also, he may not have been a choir boy, and the circumstances leading up to the shootout were questionable.

FlyinBryan
April 20, 2012, 11:11 PM
you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.

he's probably going to be wearing kevlar, and ive seen ballistics testing on body armor where the vest would stop a single round, but repeated impacts to the same point result in the armor failing , even to lower powered rounds.

armed with this information, if he stands still enough for you to hit the exact same spot it should work to your advantage.

Risky
April 21, 2012, 12:38 AM
This thread is a perfect example of how thinking too much can get you into trouble.

Certaindeaf
April 21, 2012, 12:49 AM
You could always get one of those .410 wheelguns like everyone else. lolz

JohnKSa
April 21, 2012, 12:53 AM
I doubt you'll be stacking them all in the same hole when you're trying to hit a moving target with someone shooting back at you.

...but, you find you actually ARE putting them all in the same hole in a self-defense encounter, then try shooting a little faster. Once you get up around 5 or 6 shots a second your groups will open up a little bit--I promise! ;)

we are not amused
April 21, 2012, 12:13 PM
This thread is a perfect example of how thinking too much can get you into trouble.

My first response was "I not sure thinking is what is going on here", but perhaps you're right.;)

M-Cameron
April 21, 2012, 01:27 PM
I am going to say that i do agree with what most everyone else has said....and i have no plans of switching my CCW guns to anything less accurate, nor do i recommend anyone else does either...


I was taught that when it comes to shooting, you should question everything, no matter how common place or well accepted it may be....otherwise you end up in a place where you blindly follow advice(good or bad) with no real understanding as to why......this was just one of those topics that came up, and i felt like asking.


now to address some of the things that have come up....

this target i shot was one of the rare occurrences that i decided to practice aimed fire. most of my defensive 'practice' is more or less point-shooting at distances ranging from 10-30'.

Claude Clay
April 21, 2012, 01:31 PM
all fire is aimed....even if only that i am looking at where i want the bullet to go

and to draw, double tap 3 targets in under 2 seconds and have all shots COM
is my goal when practicing SD shooting. age and arthritis has my time to 1st shot
taking a little longer but has not affected accuracy.

though till you have been tested, one can not 100% know how they will respond in a real
situation with regards to IDPA...even a rated MM is no guarentee of actions off the playing field.

thump_rrr
April 21, 2012, 05:16 PM
Do the F.A.S.T test and come back and tell us your results.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/1205

fastbolt
April 21, 2012, 05:27 PM
I suspect you're over-thinking things a bit. Not uncommon. We've all indulged in it at one time or another.

You were probably using a specific aiming point when you were target shooting, right? Meaning you were "following the hole" after the first shot in each target area? Hang up an old T-shirt on your target and see how things may change when the "hole" isn't nicely punched and clearly visible through paper.

Also, you were probably standing comfortably, shooting at whatever rate-of-fire is comfortable for you, right? 1 or 2 handed? Even, or least consistent, weight distribution?

Shooting situations tend to happen unexpectedly, and are usually referred to as dynamic, chaotic, rapidly evolving events that more often than not involve reduced light conditions. Elevated heart rate from the hormonal fear response (meaning not just from some simple physical exertion) can start to adversely affect things, too.

I remember one study by a major state agency which found that over the course of many years, reportedly upwards of almost 65% of both the officers and their attackers had been in motion throughout the shooting incidents.

cambeul41
April 21, 2012, 05:41 PM
At least one Hong Kong movie informs us that a double tap involves placing two shots in the same hole, so it must be possible since Chinese films are so realistic.

Double Tap (The Film)

 Rick熱衷於射擊和鎗械,視重案組的苗為對手。在一次比賽中,Rick一嘗殺人的快感。三年後,他成為一手段利落的冷血殺手,與苗再續三年前未分勝負的生死戰。

  Outside the courthouse, the key witness of a famous trial and six cops are assassinated. Each is hit twice at the same spot in the head. Miu knows Rick is back. Several years ago in a shooting contest, Rick and Miu knew they were borne to be the sworn enemies. Two top gunners now face their final battle. This is the gunfight of all gunfights.

RickMD
April 21, 2012, 06:37 PM
If you're that good of a shot you won't need any follow up shots. One centered in the sternum or between the eyes generally settles the issue quite promptly.

Madcap_Magician
April 21, 2012, 06:41 PM
Don't think too much.

M-Cameron
April 21, 2012, 08:03 PM
For those that were curious.....and mainly because i was curious myself, i went to the range and did 2 straight "mag-dumps" as fast as possible W/out using sights at ~20'.

....i must say im pretty happy with the results.

i do like the suggestion earlier about hanging a T-shirt over the target so that i dont get feedback from seeing the holes, i think ill have to try that next time i go out.

x_wrench
April 21, 2012, 10:38 PM
IF you were able to shoot that well in a real defense situation. just AIM an inch off the first hole for each following shot. or better yet, shoot out one eye, then the other. personally, i would aim for center of mass, and hope that i could hit somewhere in the vicinity. in a real "you or them" situation, i do not know about you, but i am certain i would not be calm, cool, and collected. i have thought late in the night when i have trouble sleeping sometimes about a hostage situation. if i would take a chance on shooting a b.g. behind another living human being. that is a tough one, and it usually makes me not able to go back to sleep at all. if that is not a worse case scenario, it has to be a very close second.

mmitch
April 21, 2012, 11:18 PM
Mozambique Drill...

Mike

Snowdog
April 22, 2012, 02:03 AM
Not to ignore the fundamental question of the thread, but I'd like to add that the P64 is indeed an exceptionally accurate little pistol. Its accuracy took me by surprise as well. Probably a combination of the incredibly short/light SA trigger, fixed barrel and the expectation of ho-hum accuracy from such a small pistol.

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 22, 2012, 08:23 AM
You'll be lucky if you even hit the bad guy at all with more than half of your rounds. Just like the rest of us. Combat throws accuracy out the window.

Hacker15E
April 22, 2012, 10:58 AM
If your aim is that good under stress, and you're concerned about it, then just move your POA.

What's more likely is that, as others have said, it will be a non-issue in real world conditions.

needmorecowbell
April 22, 2012, 11:16 AM
Aim in different spots.

Coop45
April 23, 2012, 02:07 PM
You could shut your eyes and...........

Certaindeaf
April 23, 2012, 02:10 PM
There is no such thing as too accurate. DVC though.

Humakavula
April 23, 2012, 02:18 PM
your breathing alone will change the placement of your shots. his movement is not like that of a piece of paper either.

Certaindeaf
April 23, 2012, 02:20 PM
I don't think you said but what distance was that first target shot at and with what cadence?

M-Cameron
April 23, 2012, 09:54 PM
The first target was at ~ 20-25 feet, shooting approx. 1 round per 1-2 seconds.

The second target was also shot at ~ 20-25 feet, shooting as fast as possible " point shooting"

zoom6zoom
April 23, 2012, 11:39 PM
If all your "training" involves standing still on a square range, I'm sorry, but you're probably NOT prepared for a real self defense situation.

I highly recommend taking a training class where you can move and shoot. It will be a real eye opener. Or at the very least shoot some IDPA. As far as the gun being too accurate, no. That's merely removing one randomizing factor from the equation.

sgtstryker
April 24, 2012, 10:41 PM
Wow. I have read this thread through about three times. I have never thought of this possibility before. I believe the OP is sincere in his question, and there have been some serious answers/observations. IF I ever have to defend myself and put two rounds into the same hole, I'm gonna see if I can make it a three fer.

Dean1818
April 25, 2012, 08:36 AM
Nice groups

If you can do anything close to that while you are moving and a target is moving
You are doing very very well.

After seeing some research, i would be somewhat worried about the actual bullet performance and expansion. Some of the tests showed that the limited quality JHP
Available just didnt do so well on ballistic media. In some cases the JHP didnt expand at
All when shot through 4 layers of blue jean matierial.

I absolutely loved shooting a Cz82..... What a great gun. I have also heard the p64 is incredibly accurate in SA.

Shot placement is king, but dont overlook the bullet performance for your gun.

For me the options at 9mm and 45 are immense, and the bullet manufacturers have developed some great options.

Lastly, i am suprised how much ammo in 9 mak has gone up in price. In many places its at or only slightly better than 9mm.

It used to be half or 3/4 of the 9...... Not so much anymore

Dean1818
April 25, 2012, 08:38 AM
Nice groups

If you can do anything close to that while you are moving and a target is moving
You are doing very very well.

After seeing some research, i would be somewhat worried about the actual bullet performance and expansion. Some of the tests showed that the limited quality JHP
Available just didnt do so well on ballistic media. In some cases the JHP didnt expand at
All when shot through 4 layers of blue jean matierial.

I absolutely loved shooting a Cz82..... What a great gun. I have also heard the p64 is incredibly accurate in SA.

Shot placement is king, but dont overlook the bullet performance for your gun.

For me the options at 9mm and 45 are immense, and the bullet manufacturers have developed some great options.

Lastly, i am suprised how much ammo in 9 mak has gone up in price. In many places its at or only slightly better than 9mm.

It used to be half or 3/4 of the 9...... Not so much anymore

Matthew Courtney
April 25, 2012, 08:49 AM
In addition to what Kleanbore and Sam have written, I will add that the original post reflects a dangerous mindset in that there is an underlying assumption that both the OP and the target are standing still. People shouldn't stand still in deadly force situations unless they are in formidable barricade situations and predatory criminals rarely assail those in formidable barricade situations.

An appropriate mindset is more important than either top notch equipment or a high level shooting skill set because if we fail to correct the cranial/rectal inversion, we will never have an opportunity to bring the other things to bear. Quality training is about so much more than shooting. I suggest you find some.

Dean1818
April 25, 2012, 09:48 AM
Duplicate post

GEM
April 25, 2012, 12:52 PM
When I was taking my TX CHL test, a guy wandered over and told me I shot too accurately. Thus, in court - I would be questioned as why I didn't shoot a BG in the knees. He knew this as he was a trained sniper.

:eek:

I have since remedied my accuracy problem. :(

However, why is that the SO doesnt see that that round went through the same hole and mark me down 5 points?

Actually, I once did that on a close target. I shot - double tap. Looked at it - one hole. Bang again - still one hole. SO is laughing - went through the same hole (close up). Like a hole in one in golf - never again. :D

Hacker15E
April 25, 2012, 05:31 PM
told me I shot too accurately. Thus, in court - I would be questioned as why I didn't shoot a BG in the knees.

Pretty sure that there's nothing in Texas self-defense laws that say you have to shoot-to-wound if you're capable of doing it.

Dean1818
April 25, 2012, 07:54 PM
Pretty sure that there's nothing in Texas self-defense laws that say you have to shoot-to-wound if you're capable of doing it.
I think there is some sarcasm there my friend.

dubya450
April 25, 2012, 08:15 PM
Too many hits in the head! :) I'm sure hitting the exact same spot at the exact same angle in a SD situation is near impossible.

Black Knight
April 25, 2012, 08:30 PM
Too accurate? Not on your life, there is no such thing. While it is true that in a self defense situation you and the BG may be moving being able to put shots where they count is what its all about. Your groups show that you can do so when stationary. Also for head shots, when I went through the police academy in 1995 we had a hostage target. The scenario was that this BG had taken this person hostage. This is not something any officer wants to confront. We were each armed with a 4" S&W 686 firing 38 Special +P ammo. We could choose to shoot or not to shoot. I initially chose not to shoot because of the hostage. The academy instructor then changed the scenario to the BG having a knife and was drawing it across the hostage's throat. I told I had no choice now and took the shot. The shot went between the nose and right eye of the BG. If I or my partner had missed and hit the hostage we would have had to repeat that part of the course. Fortunately we both made our shots. Head shots are difficult but sometimes necessary. Keep training and if possible add some movement to your train regimine.

Flopsweat
April 26, 2012, 09:36 AM
Well, there's your answer. It's time to start practicing shooting while moving. Just be careful and start slow.

gym
April 26, 2012, 01:05 PM
People move targets don't

GEM
April 26, 2012, 01:12 PM
Well, some setups have moving targets. I've shot them (or at them - :D) in matches and training. It's fun and informative.

Jefpainthorse
April 26, 2012, 02:21 PM
If your not moving in a defensive encounter you need to be reloading, communicating and moving some more.

I shoot IDPA too... and have to remind myself the "cardboard" is not trying to not get shot.

My defensive guns hardly ever get shot in any "classic" or methodical style other than a sight in and function test. It's nice to know a pistol can cut one-ragged-hole at 15 or 20 yards... most will.... it's all the other stuff that matters.

Trebor
April 26, 2012, 11:06 PM
You are overthinking to the point where now you are worried about the wrong kind of stuff.

Take a good training class, see what you learn, and then think about that stuff for awhile. That will be a better use of your gray matter.

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