Is the tide turning against 2nd Amendment rights?


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usmarine0352_2005
April 22, 2012, 03:49 AM
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Here is a recent story of Castle Doctrine out of Wisconsin. Legislatures in Wisconsin have been attempting to repeal Castle Doctrine there. However, I think Castle Doctrine worked exactly as it should in this case. The home owner encounters an intruder in his house, it's not his job to ask, 'Are you a murderer, rapist, only here to rob me and beat me up?'

The home owner has the right to defend himself, his family and his home. However, a lot of anti-2nd Amendment folks don't feel that way.


There have been many pro-2nd Amendment wins lately, but now, after the Treyvon Martin shooting has the tide turned?



http://www.startribune.com/local/148402995.html


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Echoes of Trayvon in Wisconsin shooting

Article by: RICHARD MERYHEW , Star Tribune

Updated: April 21, 2012 - 10:33 PM

Six days after 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch coordinator in Florida, a young man in Wisconsin sneaked into a stranger's house to hide from police after partying next door.


"What you are doing here is you are now absolving people of responsibility, of saying to themselves: 'Am I truly in danger here or is this a drunk who came home to the wrong apartment?'" said Brian Austin, a Madison police detective and a former prosecutor. "I really think it's terrible public policy to reduce the thresholds where people don't have to do any decisionmaking in regards to pulling that trigger."

"If I have to fight on this for two years or 10 years, I'm going to do that," Larson said. "I'm going to make sure we get rid of this backwards law."
.



Wisconsin made big strides with their enactment of CCW this year. However that was January and that was well before the Treyvon Martin shooting. It is most likely too soon to tell, but this is what is currently happening.



What we have seen recently are:


1.) Diane Feinstein stifles the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act (H.R. 822, S. 2188 and S. 2213)


2.) Scrutiny and attempts to repeal Stand Your Ground laws.


3.) Scrutiny and attempts to repeal Castle Doctrine laws.





So, do you think the tide has turned against 2nd Amendment rights?


.

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12131
April 22, 2012, 04:04 AM
It's a constant and eternal battle, back and forth, as far as I'm concerned.The commie gun grabbers will always attempt to capitalize on gun related deaths, whether justified or not, to advance their agenda. It is our duty to meet them head on every step of the way to preserve our 2nd Amendment right.

The Lone Haranguer
April 22, 2012, 08:15 AM
There is a big difference between the tide turning and the battle ongoing.

12131
April 22, 2012, 08:23 AM
"Has the tide turned?"
Have we lost any grounds? No.

husbandofaromanian
April 22, 2012, 08:31 AM
I am still feeling cozy and comfortable due to Heller & McDonald. It's like Roe V. Wade, they will never go away. I also live in a good state for guns (TN). One last thing that makes me comfortable is Bill Clinton lecturing that Democrats lost the Congress due to the Assault Weapons Ban.

Politicians are learning that gun people become single issue voters when we feel we may loose our gun rights. We put everything else on the back burner and vote pro gun. This makes us a political power.

I have always been afraid that if we push the 2nd too hard we will cause a constitutional convention and get the 2nd watered down.

These are good times to be a firearms enthusiast. My only real complaint with the firearm laws is silencers being an NFA controlled device. Hearing loss with shooters is a very real public safety issue. I own two silencers and I would never consider taking my children shooting without them (I make them wear hearing protection also).

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 22, 2012, 08:35 AM
I am still feeling cozy and comfortable due to Heller & McDonald. It's like Roe V. Wade, they will never go away.

Like Plessy v. Ferguson?

Give the Left a few more Supreme Court seats, and you'll be a lot less comfortable.

fxstchewy
April 22, 2012, 08:39 AM
1.) Diane Feinstein stifles the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act (H.R. 822, S. 2188 and S. 2213)

Shes always going against 2A, nothing new with that.

357 Terms
April 22, 2012, 08:49 AM
There have been many pro-2nd Amendment wins lately, but now, after the Treyvon Martin shooting has the tide turned?

I am confused; I agree with the first part of the sentence, but I have seen nothing involving the Martin case that has influenced any legislation at all.

As to Wisconsin; there are many rsidents there dancing in the streets as to their expanded 2nd amnd. rights.

Pilot
April 22, 2012, 08:58 AM
The media, and the liberals continue to use events they determine newsworthy (like Trayvon Martin) to promote more gun control laws. However, I think the general public is seeing through these attempts as there are more and more first time gun buyers and women are buying guns and shooting.

husbandofaromanian
April 22, 2012, 09:11 AM
I am waiting for for liberals (true, conscientiousness liberals) and the ACLU to accept the 2nd as a basic civil right just like the rest of the bill of rights. I'm am not being sarcastic. I believe that this change of heart will happen.

Can you only imagine how the political landscape would change if the left accepted the 2nd?

Milamber
April 22, 2012, 09:14 AM
Our whole legal system needs a redo. We have laws that overlap and turn simple misdemeanors into felony's. We have laws that are redundant and nonsensical.

Two quotes one by my favorite judge come to mind.

The House of Commons starts its proceedings with a prayer. The chaplain looks at the assembled members with their varied intelligence and then prays for the country.

-- Lord Denning

Law is a bottomless pit, it is a cormorant, a harpy, that devours
everything.
(John Arbuthbit (1667-1735) Law is a Bottomless Pit, 1712)

Elkins45
April 22, 2012, 09:15 AM
As others have said, media attempts to vilify 2A are part of the same tide we've been facing since before I was born. This has just given them another perceived wedge issue. Whether this wedge will have any lasting consequence remains to be seen.

Part of the recent increased drum beat may be a backlash to Heller and also an attempt to provide a distraction to draw the focus away from the lack of economic recovery as the November election nears.

303tom
April 22, 2012, 09:25 AM
"Has the tide turned ?"
NO, but it`s going to get worst if we don`t get shed of Obama in Nov...............

CajunBass
April 22, 2012, 09:25 AM
You weren't around in 1968 were you? You want to talk about things looking bleak? Those days were BLEAK.

beatledog7
April 22, 2012, 09:42 AM
Antis have an advantage in that when somebody gets shot, it can be made into big news, and the "big" media are all about helping the anti agenda along. There simply is nothing "newsworthy" in the fact that hundreds of thousands of American civilians carry regularly without incident and that by doing so--or even by potentially doing so--they are helping to deter crime.

It doesn't matter to the antis that 99+% of the people who have legally acquired one or more handguns will never shoot anyone. To them, a shooting happens only because the laws make it too easy for a person to get or use a handgun; every shooting becomes fuel for their engine.

Case in point: since the Martin shooting (which most of us wouldn't even know about if not for the supposed racial angle that's been brought into play), the pressure is on to reexamine stand your ground laws, even though it isn't at all clear whether SYG even applies. If SYG can be made to look like vigilante justice, think the antis, we can make it go away.

Law-abiding handgun owners must be diligent. We are all potential ambassadors the the RKBA; therefore, we must be mindful of our words and actions, because the antis won't rest until it is impossible for the average American citizen to carry or even own a handgun.

jon_in_wv
April 22, 2012, 09:48 AM
The only way the tide is going to truly turn in favor of our 2nd amendment rights is when we as a people make it a true priority. Everyone is rallying behind Romney, who is really weak on the 2nd amendment, and some people are even supporting Obama because he hasn't done anything YET. If Obama gives us 2 or 3 more liberal Supreme Court judges like the ones he gave us already you can kiss your rights goodbye.

Plan2Live
April 22, 2012, 09:57 AM
In my opinion we have passed the tipping point on Second Amendment rights as well as other important political and social issues. The game is over and we lost. It's only a matter of time before we are given our new reality all around.

Carl N. Brown
April 22, 2012, 10:25 AM
after the Treyvon Martin shooting has the tide turned?

This much is true: after the Treyvon Martin shooting attempts have been made to turn the tide. As more facts come out, the initial story sold by the ambulance-chasers has been shown false. Tide is turning, but is it turning against Martin. The Tide has crested and started to ebb.

"Lawyers for Travyon's family have insisted that Zimmerman tracked down and killed the Miami Gardens teenager because he was black." (Orlando Sentinel). It was described as a cold-blooded murder motivated by racial hatred. Photos of a 12 yearold Trayvon were shown, along side a 2005 photo of Zimmerman in an orange jump suit. Outrage was carefully orchestrated, as with the Tawana Brawley and Duke Lacrosse rape allegations. Then at the peak, bothersome facts began to creep into the debate when and where debate was allowed, like a wet blanket on fiery feelings.

Trayvon was not the 12 year old kid in the pictures, but a 17 yr old, 6'1", 150 lbs, suspended from high school for having a baggie with pot residue and a pipe in his book bag, who presented himself as a gangsta wannabe on Twit; photos emerged of Zimmerman's bloody head taken by a neighbor 3 minutes after the shooting before Zimmerman was cleaned up by rescue squad medics, details came out that Zimmerman's 2005 arrest was for intervening against two plainsclothes alcohol beverage control officers on behalf of a friend who was pinned against the wall, an obstructing officer offense hardly the potential cop killing blown up by the media. Even Nancy Grace started to back off Friday.

My question is, is the Trayvon-Zimmerman hulabalu the last gasp of the anti-2A, anti-SD movement? According to Gallup Polls, in the 1950's there was 75% support for banning handguns, today it is 25%. I suspect the opposite side is desperate. They cannot win by thinking on facts, so they hope to win by playing on emotions. It is a last desperate flailing about for a rabble rousing cause.

DammitBoy
April 22, 2012, 10:38 AM
Two or three? We lose one conservative supreme court judge and we are truly in a heap of trouble.

If re-elected, Obama may just have the opportunity to replace another justice on the court...

Prince Yamato
April 22, 2012, 10:52 AM
In my opinion we have passed the tipping point on Second Amendment rights as well as other important political and social issues. The game is over and we lost. It's only a matter of time before we are given our new reality all around.

Umm... No. We have more ground than ever. We have near nationwide ccw and ability to own silencers. I consider that significant progress.

I think once this current generation of politicians passes (the 60+ y/o block who is in part responsible for the most heinous of gun control laws), it will be pretty smooth sailing.

beatledog7
April 22, 2012, 11:02 AM
In my opinion we have passed the tipping point on Second Amendment rights as well as other important political and social issues. The game is over and we lost. It's only a matter of time before we are given our new reality all around.

I take it then you're ready to sell your guns to whomever still believes the RKBA will not go down to defeat? That way you won't be caught out when the Federal thugs come around for them all.

Animal Mother
April 22, 2012, 11:08 AM
I think its too early to tell if the tide is turning against the 2A. You often see a media uproar after unfortunate events (i.e. Giffords shooting, VA Tech shooting, Columbine shooting), but ultimately at the national level, the situation returns to the status quo. Undoubtedly, we'll see some new anti-CCW legislation introduced at the state level by liberal lawmakers in safe districts, they will want to grab some headlines. However, the true test will be to see if those bills pass and if it becomes a trend nationwide.

I tend to doubt that the tide has turned, and as posters above have pointed out, even if the pendulum began swinging in the opposite direction, we have made such monumental strides that we could lose a lot of ground and still be in a much better place politically than we were in 1968 or 1994. Of course, that doesn't mean that we can afford to be complacent, I will be sending some extra cash to the NRA and my state's CCW org, because we will need to fight the anti-CCW push that is coming, but if we defeat this initial wave that is coming, I believe the anti-2A gains will be minimal.

FROGO207
April 22, 2012, 11:20 AM
If you look at all the NEW firearms owners that have just recently purchased those said firearms my belief is the tide is turning FOR 2nd Amendment acceptance by more mainstream citizens. There are more instances that play out needing to protect oneself from harm so the common sense thing to do is learn how to protect yourself. Also ownership of firearms go hand in hand with that basic premise. So more taxpayers are waking up to the facts that the local/federal authorities are not bound by law to continuously protect you the individual citizen, therefore personal safety is indeed the responsibility of the individual.

Old krow
April 22, 2012, 11:59 AM
I don't know that the tide has turned or it hasn't. We've gained a lot of ground in some areas, but it also appears that we're losing ground in some areas as well.

I live in a very gun friendly state, CCs are Shall Issue, there's the Castle Doctrine, and I can have a suppressor. In that sense of it I think that we're gaining ground.

Where I think that we're losing ground is that the 2nd is becoming more and more of a partisan issue. There is very little "middle ground" left for someone that is a moderate (of any kind really) or someone who is, say, a social liberal and fiscal conservative. This is easily seen in polls where slightly over 20% of the people polled did not believe that the 2nd applies to civilians or think that civilian ownership should be restricted, yet they're still getting enough votes to push, or attempt to push, these laws and remain in power.

For the most part what is happening is the 2nd is being tied to issues like marital rights, marijuana, corporate taxes, foreign policy, and health care. Until that trend is reversed I believe that we're losing ground in that aspect.

Independents typically choose the POTUS and it seems like we're making it awful hard for an Independent to vote pro-gun without disregarding a handful of other Rights.

Kleanbore
April 22, 2012, 12:12 PM
Do not confuse 2A issues--which pertain to the right to keep and bear arms--with laws concerning the use of force.

"Castle doctrine" laws come into play whetter a resident kills or injures a criminal intruder with a firearm, a kitchen knife, a nine iron, or, as in the case of a famous home invasion case in Massachusetts, a gum ball machine.

When the framers of the Constitution drafted the Bill of Rights, a man's home was his castle, but the duty to retreat in the out of doors, when retreat was safely possible, existed in all of the first thirteen states.

Neverwinter
April 22, 2012, 02:00 PM
Case in point: since the Martin shooting (which most of us wouldn't even know about if not for the supposed racial angle that's been brought into play), the pressure is on to reexamine stand your ground laws, even though it isn't at all clear whether SYG even applies. If SYG can be made to look like vigilante justice, think the antis, we can make it go away.
As long as Zimmerman doesn't get off due to SYG, then the rest of us should be safe. Otherwise, the desire to remove SYG as an enabler of vigilante justice will be there.

Nushif
April 22, 2012, 02:03 PM
I don't think it's indicative of anything in the grand scheme of things, but where I live gun culture has been flourishing, with people of all stripes getting into either shooting or gun ownership and even staunch "scaredycats" (not antis) wanting to at least *try* even the scariest of full autos and big caliber guns.

Guns are losing their mystique around these parts, at least. And that enables more and more lenient laws, I'd like to think.

DesertFox
April 22, 2012, 02:06 PM
Looks like if you owe back taxes, castle doctrine could be the least of one's worries.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/2044/875/Bill_Gives_The_IRS_Power_To:_Authorize_The_Removal_Of_The_Right_To_Own_A_Firearm_-_Video.html

Yikes...

CajunBass
April 22, 2012, 02:29 PM
In my opinion we have passed the tipping point on Second Amendment rights as well as other important political and social issues. The game is over and we lost. It's only a matter of time before we are given our new reality all around.

Since you're already surrendered, would you please just get out of the way, and give those of us still in the fight more room to maneuver.

It's not so much that we mind carrying you, it's prying your fingers off everything you grab trying to hold us back that hurts.

Tomcat47
April 22, 2012, 02:35 PM
I do not think the Tide has Turned on 2A! And I believe it is actually becoming stronger......

However, the MEDIA is definitely ensuring that the perception that The 2A Is losing support is front and center!

Plan2Live
April 22, 2012, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan2Live
In my opinion we have passed the tipping point on Second Amendment rights as well as other important political and social issues. The game is over and we lost. It's only a matter of time before we are given our new reality all around.

I take it then you're ready to sell your guns to whomever still believes the RKBA will not go down to defeat? That way you won't be caught out when the Federal thugs come around for them all.
Nope, not at all. First of all, all of my previously owned weapons were lost in a boating accident so I don't have any for the Federal Thugs to take.:neener: Second, I still strongly support Second Amendment rights. However, for the most part we have lost the PR battle. Guns are viewed by the mainstream media and schools as horrible things. Hearing that message repeated over and over eventually turns the middle-grounders towards the anti-gun side just like any other well orchestrated propaganda campaign. I hope I'm wrong but based on what I see and hear on a daily basis we have lost the PR campaign. Look at California, you call that winning?

JLDickmon
April 22, 2012, 08:52 PM
The Feds will get wise to the "boating accident" after about the third guy..

SabbathWolf
April 22, 2012, 09:42 PM
Do not confuse 2A issues--which pertain to the right to keep and bear arms--with laws concerning the use of force.

"Castle doctrine" laws come into play whetter a resident kills or injures a criminal intruder with a firearm, a kitchen knife, a nine iron, or, as in the case of a famous home invasion case in Massachusetts, a gum ball machine.

When the framers of the Constitution drafted the Bill of Rights, a man's home was his castle, but the duty to retreat in the out of doors, when retreat was safely possible, existed in all of the first thirteen states.


It did?
Do you have a link to that or something?
Sounds interesting, and something I admittedly never knew about.

awgrizzly
April 23, 2012, 02:22 AM
I do not think the Tide has Turned on 2A! And I believe it is actually becoming stronger......

However, the MEDIA is definitely ensuring that the perception that The 2A Is losing support is front and center!

That's correct and that's the point. Those who would undermine the second amendment can only do so with perception, because perception can be manipulated to replace reality. Eventually it will become accepted by the majority that the second amendment is a bad thing protecting bad people who want to own bad guns. Left unchecked, over time the campaign of misinformation and division will succeed and we will appear to be the aggressors.

Neverwinter
April 23, 2012, 03:22 AM
Eventually it will become accepted by the majority that the second amendment is a bad thing protecting bad people who want to own bad guns. Left unchecked, over time the campaign of misinformation and division will succeed and we will appear to be the aggressors.
And yet some try to use the 2nd amendment in that way to protect aggressors. They are selling the rest of us out.

JustinJ
April 23, 2012, 10:21 AM
Most gun people will be voting for a candidate who signed an assault weapons ban for his state as governor. The other candidate's AG has stated the administration supports a permament nation wide assault weapons ban. That has me concerned.

Sniper66
April 23, 2012, 10:32 AM
Disappointing yet not surprising that such articles "report" on events they believe point to the misuse of home protection laws, but breathe nary a word about similar events that have saved the home owners life. Nor do they bother to mention the millions of gun owners who move through the days, months and years without harming a soul, but feel better for having the privilege. We must and will continue to fight for our right to keep and use firearms and protect ourselves.

mljdeckard
April 23, 2012, 10:42 AM
Keep in mind, we have passed a lot of these laws in a lot of these states with most people being completely oblivious. We used the opposition's tactics against them, passing laws in times and places that they weren't all that concerned about at the time. One prosecutor in WI complaining about it because of one case really doesn't raise my eyebrows much.

But what does concern me is the possibility of a slow news summer. If there is nothing else to talk about for the next few months, a lot of people who wouldn't have cared heretfore will be out signing petitions and such about these laws. I would be highly surprised if any SYG or castle laws get changed, but a lot of people who previously had no idea about them might have found a reason to oppose them.

Coop45
April 23, 2012, 01:52 PM
LOL!! We can all sit around and be afraid of the monsters under the bed. Boo!! Did I scare you?

Romeo 33 Delta
April 23, 2012, 02:30 PM
In Wisconsin, you have to understand that the Democrats (Larson is but one) are "all in" with the attempted recall of Gov. Walker. It's a alliance of National Democrat politics and Big Labor, spending 10s of millions of dollars to remove Walker and certain members of the Legislature because they managed to get public sector unions under control and thereby let local school boards and municipalities control their costs. Personally, I think the Dems are going to ultimately be BIG losers in this. I don't see any circumstances where either our Concealed Carry or Castle Doctrine are in any danger. The Dems and media tried to make this referenced case into a cause celeb, painting the dead perp and some sort of angelic personage ... but nobody's particularly buying that. His record was not spotless and he did break into an enclosed, locked porch in the middle of the night and the homeowner did challenge him. Rather than coming out of hiding with his hands raised, he reacted in a manner that the shooter deemed threatening and it was ruled a justifiable shooting. Again, it's just the typical, whining, Liberals and anti-gun crowd making noise because that's all they have!

I have to add that you've all read that Wisconsin has just issued it's 100,000th Concealed Carry permit. To the best of my knowledge, since CC went into effect this past November, we have had 2 CC-related shootings. The first was in a supermarket in Milwaukee, JUSTIFIABLE and the other the above case in Slinger, also JUSTIFIABLE. I'd say that's a darned good start and it sure isn't Dodge City ... just decent folks protecting themselves from bad guys!

Moderators, the only reason I injected "politics" into this post is a result of "politics" being the sole reason for this dust up in the first place.

gc70
April 23, 2012, 03:40 PM
Is the tide turning against 2nd Amendment rights?

Maybe we should differentiate the reported tide from the actual tide.

The media keeps reporting that gun ownership is declining. Anti-gun reporting was new and fashionable many years ago, but such reports later became standardized in much of the media. Today, a lot of anti-gun reporting is simply a "safe" and lazy way for the media to use an established 'template' to fill print space or broadcast time.

NICS checks show that firearms sales have been increasing for years and have recently been increasing at record rates. Anecdotally, there are many posts on this and other gun forums about the flood of new gun owners. Personally, I have not been to a gun store in months when the counters were not lined with newbies shopping for guns.

As long as Zimmerman doesn't get off due to SYG, then the rest of us should be safe. Otherwise, the desire to remove SYG as an enabler of vigilante justice will be there.

The current noise about SYG laws may not be what it seems.

The NAACP is against SYG laws (http://www.naacp.org/news/entry/statement-by-the-naacp-on-charges-filed-against-george-zimmerman): "In the months ahead the NAACP and our allies in the civil rights community will continue to take these issues on as well as the urgent need to repeal stand your ground laws."

Or the NAACP is for SYG laws (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-04-21/story/naacp-weighs-what-they-say-stand-your-ground-case-against-jacksonville-0): "The NAACPs Jacksonville chapter has thrown its support behind a woman who will be sentenced Monday in a shooting where she claimed self-defense against an abusive husband under the states Stand Your Ground law."

It appears that the NAACP may be less concerned with the SYG laws than with who benefits from them in specific cases.

JustinJ
April 23, 2012, 05:43 PM
The media keeps reporting that gun ownership is declining.

I've read this claim on some gun blogs but have failed to see a mainstream media article about it. However, the gun blogs claiming gun ownership is increasing reference total NICs checks which proves nothing but that more guns are buying purchased with no differentiation between first gun purchasers and gun owners.

Skribs
April 23, 2012, 05:47 PM
I'm guessing that those reports of NICS checks include new names on the checks and old names. Pretty sure they keep records of who's had a check performed.

Millwright
April 23, 2012, 05:55 PM
A most cogent comment Kleanbore ! >MW

Art Eatman
April 23, 2012, 06:36 PM
As a generality, the mediahcrities are anti-gun. It's worse now than during the Bush years, given the position of the present administration.

However, as pointed out many times in references to NICS checks, there are more guns being sold, more new owners in evidence and more CHLs issued as well as a growth in firearms trainers and students. The demands on Ruger have had them shut off taking new orders for a while.

While the media can affect some people's views, they don't actually represent any sort of anti-gun groundswell on the part of the public at large.

And so enough of this for now...

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