[smalls]

I keep seeing that IDPA has a group together to go over and revise the rulebook. I've seen speculations on what they might be changing, adding, or subtracting, but I've yet to see anything confirmed.

Has anything been confirmed? Or any news on when they should be done?

I currently can't shoot IDPA, because my bull barrel is 4.25 inches. I've seen a lot of complaints about this, and a couple people speculating on a change to this rule.

What else is most likeley to be changed in the rulebook?

[ny32182]

The only external messaging that you should put any faith in today should come from either Joyce Wilson or Terry Burba, and they are saying virtually nothing definitive at this time.

Best thing to do is just wait for the new rulebook to come out. Speculation prior to that is what it is: speculation.

[jmorris]

They are telling clubs to cancel any new SO classes until next year. No telling what they intent to change drastically enough to curtail new recruit training.

Also be interesting to see if they want all of the current SOs out of the 50,000+ members to take another class. One thing is likely, another boost in USPSA membership, much like the last rule book. Not to mention the unprinted rules they made up and posted on the internet.

I'll have to give them the thumbs down on following their "stability of rules" over the last 10 years.

[smalls]

Jmorris, do you have a link to any of those unprinted rules? I don't think I saw any of those.

[waktasz]

The IDPA forum has a rule clarification section now.

USPSA has unprinted rules interpretations on their website too guys. IDPA isn't perfect and I like USPSA better too but no need to bash it.

[jmorris]

Jmorris, do you have a link to any of those unprinted rules? I don't think I saw any of those.


I guess not only did they not add them to the rule book and print them out, they are also not on idpa.com; however, if you go to the site there is a link to the idpa forum where you can read them. Look for this...

We have created an addendum to the IDPA rule book. These rule addendums are an important part in clarifying the rule book and help in keeping IDPA headed in the right direction. Some of what is listed is simple clarifications but there are several rule changes as well. Most of these items will be of real benefit to our members such as increased weight limits for CDP and additions to the inclusive list of permitted modifications. The addendum can be found below or on the new forum.

[smalls]

Thanks, I forgot they had a forum.

[jmorris]

IDPA isn't perfect and I like USPSA better too but no need to bash it. . IDPA is my game of choice at this time. No bashing, just don't like the plan of action.

[waktasz]

The addendum IS on IDPA.com.

I have found that the rules clarifications are just clarifying my already correct interpretations of the rules that other people seem to not understand.

[smalls]

So is there an expected time frame they should be done with what they're doing?

[ny32182]

No.

[tarakian]

My understanding is that they expect to have completed the new rules by September.

[jmorris]

There must be another location for other rules they changed than just in the addendum. Like the lowering of the power factor in SSR to 105,000.

One thing will be nice is all of the rules in one place. The book they currently send out is from '05.

[Andrew Wyatt]

it would be great if they dumped the reload with retention rules.

[ForumSurfer]

it would be great if they dumped the reload with retention rules.

Amen.

I'd also like to see XD pistols eligible for SSP.

[ny32182]

!SPECULATION ALERT!

One thing they will not do is turn it into "IPSC with fishing vests"... the regular speed reload will never be adopted by IDPA.

It would not surprise me if they revamp the divisions to put all the plastic striker guns together.

[ForumSurfer]

It would not surprise me if they revamp the divisions to put all the plastic striker guns together.

I'm ok with that....and I run one.

If it gets too "gameish," I'll quit. As it is, I like being able to run my carry gear and use it as a learning experience. I realize I'll never see 1st by name, but so be it.

[bfunk]

I think that glocks and XD's and similar guns need to be in the same division, a glock 17 and an XDm are very similar guns, I can't really figure out why they don't compete against each other.

I'm also pretty sick of guys that blast away early in a stage just to get a reload in to engage a series of targets without having to reload in the middle, at a bad time, counting shots before hand to set themselves up. This is gaming it, they should have to take the highest score plus 10 seconds of their classification. Or a straight up 20 seconds. I've seen guys take a 3 second procedural stage after stage just for this purpose.

[MrBorland]

This is gaming it,


<psssst....bfunk....don't know if ya' heard....IDPA is a game.> :cool:


Welcome to THR, btw!

[jmorris]

I'm also pretty sick of guys that blast away early in a stage just to get a reload in to engage a series of targets without having to reload in the middle, at a bad time, counting shots before hand to set themselves up. Thisis gaming it, they should have to take the highest score plus 10 seconds of their classification. Or a straight up 20 seconds. I've seen guys take a 3 second procedural stage after stage just for this purpose. . Round dumping for a better reload spot can be call for a 20 second FTDR. You have to be a mind reader to prove the shooter was not just "making up" shots though. If the shooter let's you know before he shoots that he's going to take the PE, that would be a certain FTDR.

[Sam1911]

Round dumping is a seriously troublesome penalty. I've participated in discussions with other MDs (and ACs...) who pretty much consider that FTDR to be a "Master-only" penalty. In other words, if you're shooting with the Masters you know you're doing it and WE know you know you're doing it. (A good "tell" is a quote-unquote "made up" shot that's just another "0".) No qualms about handing that to anyone with higher than "EX" on their score card. But...pretty much, everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt.

Even so, I've only seen it given out a bare handful of times.

(Once when a team was heard discussing the strategy before they shot ... and all shot the same "make-up" shot before the reload! Doh! Obvious gamer is obvious! :))

[ny32182]

It is the worst rule in the sport and I really hope they... dump it.

[9mmepiphany]

I think the worst rule is the "No Reloads" in the open...so if you run dry while moving, you have to get to cover before you can start your reload.

I understand the original concern and what they were trying to prevent, but it also prevents a common sense, perfectly viable, tactic

[ny32182]

I would make two points about that:

1) That rule is fairly straighforward to enforce; no more subjectivity than cover or any other positioning rule.

2) You can still pull new mag on the way to cover; just can't drop the old one, so realistically it costs very little time assuming your next shot will have to be taken from cover regardless.

[ForumSurfer]

I think the worst rule is the "No Reloads" in the open...so if you run dry while moving, you have to get to cover before you can start your reload.


I positively hate that rule. I got dinged for that one several times on my first outing.

[David E]

I ran a State Match for two years. Without going into detail, a shooter did something that was brought to my attention as Match Director. I couldn't find anything in the rule book prohibiting his action, so no penalty was assessed.

One of the shooters later brought the shooters actions to the attention of Ken Hackathorn, then a sitting and active Founding Board member. After the incident was disclosed, instead of citing a rule against the action, he asked: "What Class was he?"

Why should it matter? If its wrong, it should be wrong for everybody.....but that has proven not to be the case.

[ny32182]

No qualms about handing that to anyone with higher than "EX" on their score card. But...pretty much, everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt.

I respect Sam but cannot say I respect this enforcement philosophy.

A penalty is a penalty, regardless of classification. If it can't be enforced the same way across the board, it is a bad rule, and guess what... round dumping cannot be fairly enforced.

Even IF you could read minds and hand it out "fairly", it would STILL be a bad rule. If Joe Blow takes a true "make-up" shot that happens to give him a better reload, should be he rewarded for screwing up? He only had to take the make up because he made a bad shot in the first place. There is no competitive angle where this rule should be acceptable.

The only "exceptions" I personally give on penalties is for rank newbies (first IDPA match) who have never had the finer points of a cover or reload rule explained to them. After the initial explanation, usually brought on by their initial violation of the rule, I start dinging them. Otherwise they will just take longer to learn.

[Sam1911]

I respect Sam but cannot say I respect this enforcement philosophy.


Which is exactly why I called it troublesome, and I doubt any match official is perfectly comfortable with it.

I'll admit that the round-dumping FTDR has NEVER been "awarded" in any of my matches. I can't see how to apply it fairly, either.

If it goes to "intent" -- and, as in the case of the team discussing it and coaching each other when to do it, intent is clearly present -- then I see it as a willful violation of the rules of the game. In any case of that extra round simply being fired as "make-up" or safety shot and happening to work out well for the shooter? What was the intent of that shot? No way I can judge that against someone. If the stage isn't "Limited" then shoot 'till you're happy, as they say. :)

[9mmepiphany]

2) You can still pull new mag on the way to cover; just can't drop the old one, so realistically it costs very little time assuming your next shot will have to be taken from cover regardless.
If I'm moving between points and my gun runs to slidelock...
1. What logic would there be to not dropping the empty magazine, reloading and continuing to shoot...it is what I would do in the real world?
2. What benefit could there be to leaving an empty magazine in your gun?
3. If I could reload while still moving to cover, why would I not start shooting again?

[David E]

Depending on the level of match, I'll do whatever is smart in real life and let the penalties fall where they may.

[jmorris]

2) You can still pull new mag on the way to cover; just can't drop the old one,

Not legally. You must be behind cover to start a reload and drawing a mag from the pouch is a "start". What you can do is leave cover with a mag in your hand as long as the gun is charged with a mag seated.

No qualms about handing that to anyone with higher than "EX" on their score card. But...pretty much, everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt.

That says a lot about you as an SO, if I am reading that correctly, it's ok to cheat without penality as long as your slow.?

FWIW I am a 5 gun master and have never had an FTDR given to me. Did see Dave S. make up/dump along with the rest of the "super squad", not one FTDR.

The FTDR is a crummy band-aid for rules made up just to be different.

[bfunk]

The round dumping I am talking about went like this:

From a prone position, at the start engage target one. You then had to move to another position to engage T2, 3 and 4.. A revolver shooter chose to dump all 6 rounds from 3 feet into the down 0 zone, reload and then engage the next three with a full cylinder. He figured that a reload from the start would likely be the fastest, so he shot 6 as fast as he could, reloaded, moved and engaged the next three targets, which were considerably farther away than T1. If you can't tell you have two shots in the down 0 zone from 3 feet, then you shouldn't be shooting.

He was obviously gaming it and was frequently "air pistoling" each stage at the walk through, even after having been told not to. No penalty was ever assessed and he was advanced a class after the match for doing well.

Regardless of class, I believe this should be penalized.

[Sam1911]

That says a lot about you as an SO, if I am reading that correctly, it's ok to cheat without penality as long as your slow.?


Nope, 'cause as I said, I've never given one! ;) (And none of my SO's have given one out at my matches, either.)

I understand the reasoning behind the statement -- if you've attained Master classification you know better and your "make up" shots are less belivable. If you're still kicking along in Marksman or Sharpshooter class, you probably shoot a lot of perfectly legitimate "make up" shots and are less likely to be gaming the game.

And I understand why the MDs discussing it promote that rule-of-thumb.

Having said I understand it, I do not apply that standard myself, and have yet to see an open-and-shut case of HAVING to give that penalty on my range.

[jmorris]

Nope, 'cause as I said, I've never given one! (And none of my SO's have given one out at my matches, either.) In the hundreds of matches I have been to I have yet to see one given out, in person, myself. I can tell you I shoot as sloppy as a master as I did as a SS, just a lot faster;)

[David E]

revolver shooter chose to dump all 6 rounds from 3 feet into the down 0 zone, reload.....

Couldn't all revolver shooters do the same thing?

If you can't tell you're hitting the Down 0 zone from 3 feet, then you shouldn't be shooting.

In real life, which many IDPA participants think these matches are preparing you for, wouldn't you fire at least 6 shots into a deadly threat that close?

He was obviously gaming it .....

Was it specified that only two shots could be fired at that target? Couldn't every revolver shooter do the same thing? If so, then what advantage did this guy gain against the other revolver shooters?

[Sam1911]

Was it specified that only two shots could be fired at that target? Couldn't every revolver shooter do the same thing? If so, then what advantage did this guy gain against the other revolver shooters?

Not sure whether you're arguing against the rule itself, or the application of it here.

I'd say that would be a pretty clear case for the round dumping call -- textbook, really: firing essentially FOUR extra shots to immediately realize a favorable reload.

If the stage wasn't Limited, obviously there is no direct prohibition against firing extra shots under the scoring rules, but if the rules say...

Intentional “round dumping” to gain a competitive advantage will result in a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty. A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload at a more advantageous time.

... then the shooter's actions clearly do violate that rule.

As for the value of the rule itself, no disagreement.

Honestly, in a real-world fight, if I DIDN'T fire all six, I'd most likely reload as fast as possible and sure wouldn't be picking out the empties from the live rounds to save... :rolleyes: But in a real fight I'd take the 3-second ding for dropping live rounds! ;)

[9mmepiphany]

Honestly, in a real-world fight, if I DIDN'T fire all six, I'd most likely reload as fast as possible and sure wouldn't be picking out the empties from the live rounds to save... But in a real fight I'd take the 3-second ding for dropping live rounds!
That's what I would have done too...regardless of the rule, doing this is just tactically correct

[David E]

The rules, as written, require the SO to divine the true intentions of the shooter....and that divination often includes the shooters classification to determine the shooters intent.

I called IDPA to find out about affiliating my newly formed club with them. During the call, I asked a question I already knew the answer to, just to confirm it. To my surprise, he said I was mistaken, so I read the specific rule to him. He said, "I know what it says, but that's not what they meant."

I decided I could not affiliate with IDPA, because I refuse to say to a shooter, "I know that's what they wrote, but that's not what they meant."

So I formed my own Carrygun Match!

[waktasz]

What was the question you asked?

[David E]

About speedloader holders. Rule book says they have to cover the "diameter" of the loader. I asked, "so if they cover just before 9 o'clock to just past 3 o'clock, it's good, right?"

"No, they must cover from 12 to 12 o'clock."

"That's circumference. The rule book says 'diameter.'"

"I know what it says, but they meant circumference."

"Then why didn't they write what they meant?"

"I don't know, but they meant circumference."

"But they have an arrow on the loader showing what they mean by diameter!"

"Yes, but they meant circumference."

[waktasz]

I see what you mean, although the diagrams in the rulebook make it pretty clear what they mean even if the wording is terrible.

I'm sure your little carrygun match is super awesome though. Have fun with that.

[9mmepiphany]

I see what you mean, although the diagrams in the rulebook make it pretty clear what they mean even if the wording is terrible.
I don't know, that picture with the arrows delineating Body and Diameter doesn't look like any description of circumference I've ever seen.

What is interesting is the picture of the speedloader holder they label as Not Legal being opposite a picture of an almost identical moonclip holder which is labeled Legal

[MrBorland]

So I formed my own Carrygun Match!

How 'bout Pocket Carry Competition (PCCA) (http://caswellranch.com/pocket-carry-competition-association/), then?

[David E]

I don't know, that picture with the arrows delineating Body and Diameter doesn't look like any description of circumference I've ever seen.

Bingo!

[David E]

How 'bout Pocket Carry Competition (PCCA) (http://caswellranch.com/pocket-carry-competition-association/), then?

Except that it doesn't look fun.

At least it looks like they now allow drawing from the pocket! Earlier, they did not.

[smalls]

Maybe they should just make an educational video, explaining all the rules, and acting it out, instead of diagrams.

I hope it doesn't become more "gamey". It'll turn me off from it.

[David E]

Heres a rule question:

Let's say you're behind a solid wall between two windows 12 feet apart. At the signal, you go to either window, slice the pie and properly engage 3 targets with two rounds each. As you go to the other window, you perform a proper tactical reload behind the cover of the wall, never exposing yourself to any target. At the second window, you properly engage the remaining targets. End of stage.

What's the penalty?

[Jim Watson]

I don't see the gotcha. Looks good to me.

[Sam1911]

David, I don't see any penalty there. As long as the entire wall is cover, you're totally in the clear. I've seen some cases where a wall running front-to-back down range couldn't be used that way because you were considered to be advancing from a position of cover, not under cover the whole time (even if you weren't technically exposed to any targets).

But that's not how I'm reading your scenario.

[jmorris]

I always use the shoot house stage at IDPA Nationals as my example (last time it was held in OK).

You had to clear each room using cover. Once you neutralized all targets in the room you could enter the room AND perform an IDPA legal reload. So you have to looks at it as, you are not exposed to threat targets once you have neutralized them or slicing the pie doesn't even make sense. Once we understand that we can move on to "reposed in the open". The reason we are in the "open" is because we don't have a half million dollar shoot house. More often than not sections of stages could be looked at as "rooms".

From the above it is ok to reload in a room where there are targets that you just shot as long as you were loaded before you entered the room.

[David E]

The penalty in my example stage is a Procedural, because you left the first position before reloading.

What's that? It's not in the Rule Book?

No, it isn't, but this is the exact stage Founding member and then-active Board Member, Walt Rauch wrote about in an issue of Handguns magazine.

As I read his stage description, I, like you, saw nothing wrong with doing a tactical reload while moving behind the wall....but Walt did, calling it "nothing more than a gamer's gimmick" or some such....even tho it wasn't prohibited in the Rule Book.

If you never read that article, you'd never know or think the shooters actions rated a penalty. But since some folks did read it, they'd assess penalties all day even tho they couldn't back it up it in the Rule Book.

The result was/is, calls being made that weren't in the Rules.

At one of the early IDPA Nationals, you had to declare your mag capacity on the stage scoresheets.....even tho that rule was nowhere to be found in the Rule Book. At least they fixed that one.

As I recall the Shoot House stages both years in Tulsa, WE were told we had to do our reloads behind cover before moving forward. IE; no reloads in "view" of the targets, neutralized or not.

[Sam1911]

No question that some bad calls have been made and some poor opinions have been written over the years (do you remember what year that article came out?). No real excuse for it, but I don't know of any other sport of similar scope that hasn't faced issues like that. Walt is/was an authority figure and should have been more thoughtful, but he's still just a man with his own opinions and prejudices. If what he thought wasn't considered canonical enough to end up in the Rule Book, that says something.

I doubt anyone would call a penalty like that (at least at a Sanctioned match) these days, but you never know. Always good to ask the SO ahead of time how s/he will call that one.

The way I've heard this explained (in the current interpretation) is that the shooter should not leave a "position of cover" with an empty gun. Pie-ing the corner to take out 3 targets does neutralize them, but it would be tactically unsound to then step out into that space beyond the corner with an empty gun -- on the basis of the fact that you can't be sure (at least in "real" life) that there is NO other threat waiting that you didn't see or that has entered the space after you shot. I can see the logic behind this. Advancing into the next room/area means you are leaving a space of relative safety -- possibly exposing yourself to other targets and opening yourself up to ambush. Get the gun charged up before you move into that space.

With the horizontal wall scenario, though, the entire area behind the wall is one continual "position of cover" and as long as you remain behind it, you are still in that position of cover -- even if it's 10 yards wide.

Of course there are huge grey areas an infinite possibilities, and that's why you should always ask how it will be called.

[David E]

Walt's take on that call had nothing to do about it being "canonical" enough to be in the rule book....

HE thought the call was OBVIOUS!

I may still have that issue. It had a Walther PPK on the green cover. I'm thinking it was May of 2006-7

[Sam1911]

Ok...canonical was perhaps not the right word. He though it was obvious. He was mistaken. Hopefully this is something that gets worded in a way we can follow when the newest revisions are complete.

[Jim Watson]

At one of the early IDPA Nationals, you had to declare your mag capacity on the stage scoresheets.....even tho that rule was nowhere to be found in the Rule Book. At least they fixed that one.

I call that an administrative convenience, considering that it IS a rule that you stay at the same magazine capacity throughout.

[Smokin Gator]

"Depending on the level of match, I'll do whatever is smart in real life and let the penalties fall where they may."


In a stage where you realize that you are going up against 8 or 9 threats, do you retreat back to your car and go home? Mark

[Jim Watson]

"Depending on the level of match, I'll do whatever is smart in real life and let the penalties fall where they may."

If I am SO, please let me know in advance so I can stay out of the way of your smart activites and issue the FTDR for intentionally breaking rules early so you can get it out of the way.

[waktasz]

People that say that kind of stuff piss me off to no end, and without fail are the people who can't shoot their way out of a paper bag. "Oh it's not tactical to do that so blah blah blah"

If you sign up for a boxing match, and get into the ring and decide you are hopelessly outmatched, you can't just start kicking the guy or poking him in the eye, that's not boxing.

So if you show up to an IDPA match, realize you signed up to play a game, and follow the rules.

[David E]

I call that an administrative convenience, considering that it IS a rule that you stay at the same magazine capacity throughout.

Jim, my point is, they enforced this rule BEFORE it was an official rule.

[David E]

"Depending on the level of match, I'll do whatever is smart in real life and let the penalties fall where they may."


In a stage where you realize that you are going up against 8 or 9 threats, do you retreat back to your car and go home? Mark

You know you're missing the point, right?

[David E]

If I am SO, please let me know in advance so I can stay out of the way of your smart activites and issue the FTDR for intentionally breaking rules early so you can get it out of the way.

Let me try and clear up the confusion.

I'm mainly talking about stupid rules that get brought out when stupid stages are run.

At a local match, if the course of fire forces me to slidelock out in the open, I'm going to start and complete my reload as soon as possible.

If I do a tactical reload behind full cover of a wall as in my example and you read Walt's article and give me a procedural, fine.

If I'm shooting 6-shot revolver and do a reload after firing 4-5 rds, I'm not going to pocket the "whole mess," I'm leaving the one or two live rounds behind. (anyone recall the incident at Mendenhall?)

If the course of fire requires me to do a tactical reload when the first mag I'm supposed to pocket is empty, (been there, done that) I may just do a speed load instead.

I'm not talking about cheating, since I'm not trying to hide anything and I fully expect to be penalized if I do something "wrong." I'll comply with the rules as much as I can, but stupid stages bring out stupid rules....like being at slidelock and not able to even eject the empty ir draw the spare until you're behind cover....even if the nearest cover is 10 yds away. So the shooter is expected to run 10 yds with an empty gun? That's not just enforcing a very bad habit, it's creating one.

[David E]

People that say that kind of stuff piss me off to no end, and without fail are the people who can't shoot their way out of a paper bag. "Oh it's not tactical to do that so blah blah blah"

I'm not talking "tactics," I'm talking stupidity. I follow all the rules at the larger matches and have shot my way out of many a paper bag.


So if you show up to an IDPA match, realize you signed up to play a game, and follow the rules.

Sure, when the rules don't make me do inordinately stupid things at the local matches.

Most of the things I'm talking about are very rare occurrences, so it's not like I'm going to do anything that'll earn me a penalty on each and every stage. In fact, after shooting IDPA for 14 years, I have received less than 10 penalties in all that time, including FTN penalties.

[TEX]

On reloads I heard different - and I asked numerous SOs. In some opinions the moment you touch your spare mag or drop a mag from your gun (empty or not), you have begun a reload and can snag a penalty. Others are OK with you manipulating a spare mag (such as in a tactical reload) as long as you conform to two items; you don't eject the in-service mag until you are behind cover, and you don't shoot the gun with the spare mag in your hand. I would really like to see this well defined in the new rules along the lines of..

You can't leave cover with an empty gun, but if your gun runs dry in the open or while on the move, you can start the reload as soon as the gun is empty.

Round dumping is a tough one to call. At my age, I can no longer see bullet holes beyond a certain distance and often take an extra shot at swingers or targets 15 yards and further, depending on where I might run dry - if its going to make me run dryu at a realy bad spot, I will slow down and settle for two shots. And besides you shouldn't waste time looking for the holes anyway. If I were an SO, I would never attempt to call round dumping if it was just one extra shot per target beyond 5 yards. I don't think it is a problem that we will ever have a really, really good answer to.

[jmorris]

As I recall the Shoot House stages both years in Tulsa, WE were told we had to do our reloads behind coverbefore moving forward. IE; no reloads in "view"of thetargets,neutralized or not. inconsistent RO perhaps, certainly gave an advantage to all of us that were able to reload inside the room. FWIW you are almost always "in view" of neutralized targets after you shoot T1. Slice the pie and at T2 you are in view of T1. Shoot all targets from room 1 and move to the door in room 2 and not only are you "in view" but your back is to them.

Some of the rules are in my opinion stupid; however, I don't winas many matches as I do because I don't play by them. As far as "real life" tacticool (yes, generally the slower shooters) go, in real life a pistol is only to get you by while getting to a rifle.

[9mmepiphany]

On reloads I heard different - and I asked numerous SOs. In some opinions the moment you touch your spare mag or drop a mag from your gun (empty or not), you have begun a reload and can snag a penalty. Others are OK with you manipulating a spare mag (such as in a tactical reload) as long as you conform to two items; you don't eject the in-service mag until you are behind cover, and you don't shoot the gun with the spare mag in your hand. I would really like to see this well defined in the new rules along the lines of..
Under the current rules, in a Tactical Mag change, the reload starts as soon as you touch your spare mag, so you'll have to be behind cover. But it is completed as soon as the fresh magazine is seated, so you can start moving while you stow the magazine...just don't shoot while the ejected mag is still in your hand

[ny32182]

Is there a rule or ruling that backs that up?

[9mmepiphany]

Page 41; line 7 & Section A - Interchangeable & Start of Magazine Change
Page 42; Section D - End of Magazine Change
Page 44; line 6 - Movement

[ny32182]

I would make the argument that if you go to slidelock in the open, you are going to be doing a slidelock reload, which by the definition above starts when you drop the empty magazine. I have never seen a procedural given for being outside of cover with a full or partial magazine in your hand instead of stowed.

[9mmepiphany]

We might be posting at cross purposes.

1. Post #65 and #67 refer to Tactical or Reloads w/Retention
2. I agree with you tactically (which was my point in post #23), but page 42; line 23 says differently
3a. If you are referring to having a magazine out, prior to reloading, before reaching cover...I just saw it at out last match. Is there a rule or ruling, that you can cite, that allows it?
3b. If you are referring to after a reload, that was my point in post #67

[jmorris]

You don't have to go very deep in the book to find the reload rules. Competition rule #3 on page 8&9 lay it out for you. All reloads begin with first action and end with fully charged ready to fire gun.

And no they don't view running to cover so you can reload a "first action" eventhough it has to be done first

[BullfrogKen]

I really just go shoot IDPA to hang out with my like-minded friends, socialize, and shoot a bit while doing it.


I could care less about the penalties. Every so often I'm surprised when I get one for doing something that's against the rules, but makes good tactical sense.


Whatever. Just give me a FTR when I sign up. I'll go shoot a few no shoots and lets get all the penalties out of the way right now so I can just go enjoy my time with my friends.

[Gryff]

I'd also like to see XD pistols eligible for SSP.

Actually, I would like to see Glocks forced into ESP, and let SSP go back to being the division for DA/SA guns like Sigs, Berettas, H&Ks, etc. I hate that those guns are effectively excluded from serious competition because they have to compete against a Glock with a 2-3# trigger.

I think the worst rule is the "No Reloads" in the open...so if you run dry while moving, you have to get to cover before you can start your reload.

I'm with you on that one. Also would like to see the penalty for dropping an empty mag when you still have a round in the chamber. There is absolutely NO reason to retain that mag.

2) You can still pull new mag on the way to cover; just can't drop the old one, so realistically it costs very little time assuming your next shot will have to be taken from cover regardless.

You absolutely CANNOT pull a new mag while in the open. Reloads can only be initiated behind cover, and the reload process begins with the "shooter’s first action to initiate the reload (ejection of the magazine, drawing a spare magazine, etc.) and end when the weapon is fully charged and ready to fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully forward or cylinder closed)." (Competition Rule C3 - page 9)

The penalty in my example stage is a Procedural, because you left the first position before reloading.

What's that? It's not in the Rule Book?

No, it isn't, but this is the exact stage Founding member and then-active Board Member, Walt Rauch wrote about in an issue of Handguns magazine.

It's not a penalty. Walt's a brilliant guy, but he isn't the arbiter of the rules. That call was simply his opinion.

At one of the early IDPA Nationals, you had to declare your mag capacity on the stage scoresheets.....even tho that rule was nowhere to be found in the Rule Book. At least they fixed that one.

Nothing wrong with forcing a competitior to declare mag capacity. The rules state that all of your mags must be of the same capacity. The the occasional cheater in CDP will try to vary his/her use of 7-round and 8-round mags to give them a competitive advantage on reloads depending on the CoF. Forcing them to declare mag capacity helps hold them accountable.

As I recall the Shoot House stages both years in Tulsa, WE were told we had to do our reloads behind cover before moving forward. IE; no reloads in "view" of the targets, neutralized or not.

Correct. If you are in view of a neutralized target, you are in the open. It is irrelevant that that the target is neutralized. This rule becomes problematic, though, when moving forward in a CoF (such as down a hallway). If a neutralized target is visible to you, but behind you, are you still in the open? Tough call.

If I'm shooting 6-shot revolver and do a reload after firing 4-5 rds, I'm not going to pocket the "whole mess," I'm leaving the one or two live rounds behind. (anyone recall the incident at Mendenhall?)

Nothing says you have to (as far as I can see in the rule book). You do have to pocket the live rounds, though.

As for the FTDR penalty, that's a dangerous one, and I have used it only once. The problem with it is that it requires you to devine that the shooter's action was intentional. How can you be 100% sure that the third shot into the target at 3 yards (that conveniently put the gun at slide lock) was an intentional choice? I've personally fired the occasional round that I was positive was pulled off target or into the -3 zone, immediately made up the shot, and later found out that all three shots were center mass (I'm at the cusp of Expert/Master). It happens, and unless you are a mind reader, you can't be sure what the shooter chose to do. And the FTDR is a brutal penalty to hand out unless you are unequivocally positive about the shooter's choice.

[9mmepiphany]

Actually, I would like to see Glocks forced into ESP, and let SSP go back to being the division for DA/SA guns like Sigs, Berettas, H&Ks, etc. I hate that those guns are effectively excluded from serious competition because they have to compete against a Glock with a 2-3# trigger.
That makes complete sense...it is why I move over to CDP

It would allow the folks carrying guns like the SIG DAK and H&K LEM a place to compete on a more level field.

[Sam1911]

Gryff, that's a pretty good one -- moving the striker-fired stuff to ESP. Practically it makes a whole lot of sense. Nominally it probably won't fly because of the "Stock Service Pistol" thing. Hard to argue a Glock isn't a stock service pistol.

[David E]

It's not a penalty. Walt's a brilliant guy, but he isn't the arbiter of the rules. That call was simply his opinion.

Stated as fact. Walt helped WRITE the rule book, so its expected that he'd know what was intended, etc. Anyone who read that article was influenced by the apparent intent of what the rules are, not what they actually say.

Nothing wrong with forcing a competitior to declare mag capacity.

Not when it's not in the rule book. This happened BEFORE it was an official rule.

The the occasional cheater in CDP will try to vary his/her use of 7-round and 8-round mags to give them a competitive advantage on reloads depending on the CoF.

If everyone else in the Division has the exact same option, where is the "competitive advantage?"

Nothing says you have to (pocket the whole mess) (as far as I can see in the rule book). You do have to pocket the live rounds, though.

I realize I'm not required to pocket spent cases, that's just their suggestion. ("pocket the whole mess") But it's an ill-advised one as far as real world practicality goes.

As for the FTDR penalty, that's a dangerous one. And the FTDR is a brutal penalty to hand out unless you are unequivocally positive about the shooter's choice.

One guy decided to load up his mags to full capacity to avoid a reload. He was told he'd get an FTDR if he did it. He did and he did. THAT'S a good example of properly assessing an FTDR.

[jmorris]

As I recall the Shoot House stages both years in Tulsa, WE were told we had to do our reloads behind coverbefore moving forward. IE; no reloads in "view"of the targets, neutralized or not. IIRC Wayne Ritchie was the RO when our squad was told that you had to be loaded before you left one room and entered another but once you were in the other room you were free to reload.

This may be the most important thing to learn. Ask questions, if you don't the only person you handycap is yourself.

[David E]

Our squad was told that you had to be loaded before you left one room and entered another but once you were in the other room you were free to reload.
.

That makes absolutely no practical sense.....which is why it doesn't surprise me!

[jmorris]

It sure saved time.

[David E]

No argument there.

[Andrew Wyatt]

The entire reload situation with IDPA is something that makes me enjoy shooting IPSC more than IDPA.

Reloads with retention have a place, but it is not on the clock.

[jmorris]

Reloads with retention have a place, but it is not on the clock. I would add, Unless it is the fastest way to shoot a stage within the rules. The point is to be fast at everything. "Gaming" is something slower folks say about people that have perfected skills they have not.

[9mmepiphany]

"Gaming" is something slower folks say about people that have perfected skills they have not.
That was the original reasoning for the formation of the IDPA

[David E]

What is the purpose of a "tactical" reload, anyway? The theory goes, you get involved in a gunfight, shots are fired, then, sensing a lull in the action, the shooter reloads the gun, pocketing the unfired rounds that were originally in the gun, in case he needs them later in the same gunfight.

Makes sense when discussing such things on the patio drinking a beer....or five...

I once personally asked Walt Rauch if there had EVER been a documented non-military case where someone got involved in a gunfight, performed a tactical reload then, moments later in the same fight loaded and fired the rounds pocketed earlier.

He cocked his head, mildly surprised at the question, thought for a second and said: "Um......mayyybe...."

What?! All this fuss, all the hand wringing, all the endless hours debating how and when to do a tac load because MAYBE it happened....once?

[9mmepiphany]

Our department used to teach the Speed reload and the Tactical reload...I think someone on staff took an IDPA class (I shudder to think where)...using that exact reasoning. Before anyone ask...yes, I can smoothly perform all three

A few years later, they finally came to the senses...especially considering the amount of time officers spent practicing...and stopped teaching it.

They standardized on the Speed reload...both in the open and behind cover. The suggestion was that "if you had the time", you should pickup your ejected magazine. But then, we weren't training for a game

[David E]

Is there a place for a "tactical" reload?

Yes. When you first load your gun, so you're carrying the full mag capacity +1

After that..........

[BullfrogKen]

My understanding of the current era's "tactical reload" came about in the early days of Gunsite.


The place is a desert. Anything dropped on the ground there gets all the sand, loose tiny rocks, and the other debris all over and thoroughly inside it. During a high round count/fast-paced class, guns up and down the line choking and having fits and starts with the crap from the magazines being introduced into the guns seriously ate up trigger time.

It also became something of a safety hazard. One student's gun going down isn't much more than a distraction for the Range Officer/Instructor to deal with during the class. Several guns going down is too much for a small staff to manage, all while running a hot firing line while they attempt to fix a jam. Remember, the Gunsite "resort" attracts a whole lot of people who haven't shot their handgun since the last time they attended Gunsite.


As a way to avoid those problems a reload with retention procedure was developed. Shooters still did speed reload drills. But the standard reload involved retaining the empty (or partial) mag so it didn't drop onto the desert floor.


Somehow, someone who didn't know this history saw this technique, thought it was the next uber-cool modern handgun reload procedure, and now we all practice a reload with retention.


Anyway.


All I know about all these damn IDPA rules is the more they pass, and the more they include/exclude guns and holsters and ammo pouches the less and less it becomes the sport that claims you can, "show up with what you carry on the street, and compete using real-world tactics in real-world stages."

Fact is I can't. At least, not according to the IDPA rules. At some point they'll have to be honest with themselves and stop promoting it like you can.

[Jim Watson]

Perhaps the Armed Citizen Alliance will be of interest, then:
http://www.armedcitizenalliance.com/home

"The ACA is the first and only national membership organization designed to promote actual hands-on practice, training, and recreational shooting with concealed carry and personal defense firearms within a structured context."

[9mmepiphany]

As a way to avoid those problems a reload with retention procedure was developed. Shooters still did speed reload drills. But the standard reload involved retaining the empty (or partial) mag so it didn't drop onto the desert floor.
Well, that explains why they kept having us do that :rolleyes:...constantly topping off between strings of fire

In the context of running a Hot Range, the reload with retention does serve a useful prupose

[smalls]

Jim, I've got a hard time finding places to shoot IDPA relatively close, and they've been around for some time! I'd love to see what ACA's about, but I imagine it'll be a while til I see it around.

The website is kind of vague, too. It seems like more than a shooting discipline, but can't really figure out exactly what it's about.

[Jim Watson]

Just trying to give the guys something to do besides nitpick IDPA.
Looks kind of improbable to me.

[Walkalong]

the less and less it becomes the sport that claims you can, "show up with what you carry on the street, Which is what made it so popular in the first place. Bring what you have, and you do not have to compete against tricked out guns and holsters.

[jmorris]

Which is what made it so popular in the first place. Bring what you have, and you do not have to compete against tricked out guns and holsters.

I think he was saying guns that are not good designs for the game have a hard time competing with others that are ideal for the game, eventhough they are not "race" guns.

They way I look at it is the old "If you can't beat them join them." If you think a Glock has an "unfair" advantage in SSP you should shoot one.

[Sam1911]

They way I look at it is the old "If you can't beat them join them." If you think a Glock has an "unfair" advantage in SSP you should shoot one.


I've come to a pretty stark conclusion regarding that issue, and the broader one it suggests.

The timers don't lie. The points-down don't lie. It is FUN to shoot wheelguns (which I do a lot). It is FUN to shoot some DA/SA autos, and guns you just happen to like.

But there is some perhaps significant value in finding out what gun helps you really, honestly put the rounds on target fastest and with the most accuracy -- and what guns are "the bestest for the mostest." Competition is a test bed. It isn't "real" life, but it gives certain information you really couldn't get from almost any one person's "real" world experiences.

When things have to be split into limited divisions to keep things "fair"... that says something too.

[Andrew Wyatt]

i agree with sam.

[waktasz]

Yep. An IDPA match is why I don't carry my Keltec anymore. I found out thru competition that if I ever actually had to use it to shoot someone past 5 feet I'd probably get killed.

[David E]

What gun did you replace the Kel-Tec with? Do you shoot that in matches?

[waktasz]

I usually shoot a Glock 35 but I have shot this one in a match and this is my carry piece. It's not exactly an off the shelf model.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2701989/Glockchop2.jpg

[Ric_in_OR]

All I know about all these damn IDPA rules is the more they pass, and the more they include/exclude guns and holsters and ammo pouches the less and less it becomes the sport that claims you can, "show up with what you carry on the street, and compete using real-world tactics in real-world stages."

Fact is I can't. At least, not according to the IDPA rules. At some point they'll have to be honest with themselves and stop promoting it like you can.

I am new to IDPA, and I was told by the Training Officer & Safety Officer that I could not shoot my pistol the way I carry everyday.

I use a rail mount laser.

So for the match I have to remove it - some paranoia that the extra weight could help with split times.

I would think it could be treated in the same way as loading up extra rounds in a magazine - if the SO sees a dot, you get a procedural.

My issue isn't the need for a sighting assist, but rather the pain in re-sighting in the laser after reattaching. For those of us who shoot what we carry, it is an issue.

Perhaps that has been belabored before, in which case I am sorry.
I am anticipating the revised rule book.

[waktasz]

The rules are made to create competitive equity among everyone because at the end of the day it IS a game. If 1% of the people who shoot IDPA can't use their rail mounted laser because of these rules, so be it.

[David E]

It's more than 1%. Plenty of guns are being sold with a factory installed laser as an option.

Ric, if you want to improve your gun skills shooting IDPA matches, my suggestion is to ask if you can shoot the gun "as is" for no score. You get to shoot your real carry gun and they can't claim you have an unfair advantage.

[waktasz]

Factory installed rail mounted lasers? Maybe I'm way out of touch, but I challenge you to name three guns coming from the factory like this.

I used to have a S&W 1911 with CT grips but with the grips turned off they didn't turn into a barrel weight like a rail mounted light or laser yet.

[David E]

I didn't say rail mounted, I simply said "factory installed."

Regardless, my suggestion to shoot for no score still stands. Or would some object to that?

[jmorris]

Except the weight it adds a laser gives you zero advantage. However I have seen guns with them at matches, mostly CT laser grips.

[Sam1911]

Except the weight it adds a laser gives you zero advantage. However I have seen guns with them at matches, mostly CT laser grips.

I've been kindof wishing they'd open up the game for the use of laser sights anyway.

Have to figure after a few years of folks using them in competition there might be a noticable trend in laser sight sales ... downward.

But who knows? Maybe not. After all, they still sell a lot of PGO shotguns... :D

[David E]

Except the weight it adds a laser gives you zero advantage. However I have seen guns with them at matches, mostly CT laser grips.

The weight "advantage" is inconsequential. If you really think it keeps the kick down, then it'll cause the shooter to swing past the next target.

If lasers don't give a sighting advantage, then Bill should allow them.

[jmorris]

If it would be advantageous to use a laser sight, they would have been in use on "open" pistols in USPSA decades ago. There is a big difference in utility between a holographic red don't and one projected down range.

For the weight issue, why do you suppose they don't allow full length dust covers made out of steel?

[Sam1911]

I could imagine a slight advantage, arguably, in low-light stages.

Otherwise, most folks seem to catch on that, if you have enough light to see the sights, "follow the bouncing ball" isn't exactly fast.

[Andrew Wyatt]

even then, a gun mounted light (which i think is still a no-no according to idpa rules) is better than a laser, since you have nicely backlit sights.

People who are slow can't get angry at other people's skills, so they get angry at other people's equipment.

Go look in your gear bag and safe. I doubt you'll find a piece of equipment designed more recently than the 70s that wasn't influenced in some way by competition.

[David E]

Lasers aren't legal in USPSA, so the argument is moot. IF they were allowed and were never used, then there might be a point to make.

Railed 1911's should be allowed in IDPA, but I've never looked to IDPA for consistent application of logic.

[jmorris]

Railed 1911's are allowed as long as they make weight.

Although a double stack, this one has shot hundreds of matches in both ESP as a 9mm and CDP as a 45.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/SVI.jpg