Would You Put Your CCW At Risk?


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AntiSpin
April 24, 2012, 12:12 PM
A flood of newly-released videos and eye-witness accounts of a two-year-old killing on the Mexican border has recently come into public attention, reviving charges that a dozen or more Border Patrol agents beat to death a handcuffed, helpless Mexican citizen.

On May 28, 2010, illegal immigrant Hernandez Rojas was being deported, when he was knocked to the ground, clubbed, repeatedly tazed, and kicked, for 30 minutes, suffering broken ribs, knocked-out teeth, multiple cuts and bruises, and damage to his heart. He was then taken to a hospital where he died of his injuries. That much is inescapably evident from the videos, the witness statements, and the public record.

Without getting into a debate over whether or not the beating was justified, Iíd like to see a discussion of this possibility; letís say that (1) you are a CCW permit holder, (2) you were a witness to the beating, and (3) letís assume for the moment that you were convinced by what you saw and heard that it was deliberate, unjustified murder of a helpless victim.

Now, knowing what the reaction of police in your area would likely be, and understanding the risk to your CCW, would you nevertheless report what you believed to have been a crime, and would you testify willingly to what you saw and heard? Or would the risk to your CCW outweigh your concerns over justice in the matter, causing you to keep silent?

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45_auto
April 24, 2012, 12:16 PM
Okay, what do you think the risk to your CCW is if you reported and testified to what you'd seen? How does that affect your CCW?

Do you think the local cops are going to look up whether you have a CCW or not and trump up some charges against you, or come looking for you?

Sam1911
April 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
You're asking people if they'd be a whistle-blower or not, based on whether a corrupt sheriff or PD would revoke their carry permit?

I don't know how anyone can say -- for sure -- unless they were in that position for real. This is kind of like those "would you shoot if they came for your guns?" questions. Everyone's going to say "YES!" No one's going to admit to being cowardly, selfish, or that they'd ignore such a grave injustice.

And besides...the premise is a little odd. It would be mighty transparent for your CCW credential to be yanked just because you reported something like this. What would the reason be? "He told on us?" :rolleyes:

Sky
April 24, 2012, 01:02 PM
You're asking people if they'd be a whistle-blower or not, based on whether a corrupt sheriff or PD would revoke their carry permit?

I don't know how anyone can say -- for sure -- unless they were in that position for real. This is kind of like those "would you shoot if they came for your guns?" questions. Everyone's going to say "YES!" No one's going to admit to being cowardly, selfish, or that they'd ignore such a grave injustice.

And besides...the premise is a little odd. It would be mighty transparent for your CCW credential to be yanked just because you reported something like this. What would the reason be? "He told on us?" As usual Sam says it best.

I saw the video some time ago and read an article on the individual and his wife and ?5? kids. The autopsy said there were trace amounts of meth in his blood (believe what you will) but when there are 15+ government sponsored enforcement officers in a feeding frenzy circle I would suggest a video phone, distance and keeping your mouth shut is about all you can do until the family raises hell and ask for information. I do not think you would lose anything unless there is some monster conspiracy in the works and we all know those do not exists.

Jamie B
April 24, 2012, 01:11 PM
Sam nailed it -moving on.....

HGUNHNTR
April 24, 2012, 01:14 PM
This is what a ccw is for right? Protecting life?

Sky
April 24, 2012, 01:39 PM
This is what a ccw is for right? Protecting life?

Your life (family) maybe in certain circumstances spelled out by your state laws with regards to CHL/CCW..

Sam1911
April 24, 2012, 01:39 PM
This is what a ccw is for right? Protecting life?


To oversimplify things, yes. But he didn't ask about protecting life. He asked if you'd report police/LEO abuses, of someone else, after the fact -- or not, for fear of petty repurcussions from the implicated department or agency.

HGUNHNTR
April 24, 2012, 02:58 PM
^ Well I should sure hope so. You mean it would even be a question as to whether or not you let someone be beaten to death just because you were concerned about possible ccw repercussions? :uhoh::confused:

Sam1911
April 24, 2012, 03:06 PM
You mean it would even be a question as to whether or not you let someone be beaten to death just because you were concerned about possible ccw repercussions?
Well, he's not really even asking if you'd do anything to not "let" someone be beaten to death. He's talking about reporting it after the fact, if you were merely a witness.

Actively intervening in such a scene would be a different question entirely -- one we've gone over quite a few times in the past -- and would be extremely difficult to realistically answer well.

medalguy
April 24, 2012, 06:36 PM
I think any active intervention in this kind of scenario would not end well for the individual involved. Stepping up and saying "Hey, what's going on?" might just be enough to bring some sense of rationality to any LEOs involved in the beating of a handcuffed prisoner, at least I would hope so, and that alone might end the whole business.

If not, there's an eyewitness present now who has asked the officers what's going on, and they know that, and the future should be pretty clear for those involved. Can you say "Rodney King et al"?

gym
April 26, 2012, 01:19 PM
What made you think up this scenario. I would think if you were whitness to a beating like that you might have other things on your mind first. Like getting your butt out of there first so you didn't become part of whatever was going on. Sometimes the best intentions can get you killed wandeing into a situation that you have no knowledge of. He may have shot at or killed a cop, it sounds like a leading question, hope it's not. It reminds me of the old Viet Nam stories of zippo raids on Villages. They leave out the part about the village crawling with VC.

Johannes_Paulsen
April 26, 2012, 01:50 PM
And besides...the premise is a little odd. It would be mighty transparent for your CCW credential to be yanked just because you reported something like this. What would the reason be? "He told on us?"

Stranger things have happened in life and politics. Civil servants can be vindictive, the laws in some jurisdictions might give those same servants more discretion in suspension or revocation of licenses, and judicial remedies can be expensive and time consuming.

Sam1911
April 26, 2012, 02:01 PM
Stranger things have happened in life and politics. Civil servants can be vindictive, the laws in some jurisdictions might give those same servants more discretion in suspension or revocation of licenses, and judicial remedies can be expensive and time consuming.
Accepted as true, or occasionally/historically true in some places. But I'd say pretty rare in this age of openness and accountability (and the press out for the blood of any authority figure). Is this still something worth basing a decision to act or not upon? Do US citizens really live under fear of reprisal in 2012?

smalls
April 26, 2012, 02:02 PM
My first question is why you're out inthe middle of the desert by the Mexican border?

Sky
April 26, 2012, 02:09 PM
My first question is why you're out inthe middle of the desert by the Mexican border?

In the video I saw this occurred at a boarder crossing point. Many people were there. Maybe I got the wrong case? Found the PBS broadcast. Not good to watch if you have high blood pressure. Vid at approx 1:30 of agents

http://youtu.be/nSjVQY0ifls

smalls
April 26, 2012, 02:17 PM
my comment was more "a silly answer for a silly question". I hadn't watched the video, as it doesn't interest me, and isn't firearms related.

gripper
April 26, 2012, 04:11 PM
For me its " nut up or shut up"- I would at LEAST testify .....and I would not rule out " direct action" upon seeing a " hammer party"....and I' d expect those I co sider friends to do the same for me.Wouldn't be the firzt time I butted heads- literally or in court.

Salmoneye
April 26, 2012, 04:48 PM
knowing what the reaction of police in your area would likely be, and understanding the risk to your CCW, would you nevertheless report what you believed to have been a crime, and would you testify willingly to what you saw and heard

No CCW needed here, so no 'risk' involved...

That said, I would not only 'testify' if needed, I would have been hard pressed to not intervene at the time of the event...

At the least I would have been on the horn informing the state, feds, and anyone else I could think of, as well as 'informing' the people involved that they were being taped and reported...

gym
April 26, 2012, 06:08 PM
Why would you worry about your carry permit, above everything else that you should be concerned with. Are we to believe that if you were to lose your permit because "in your mind" you reported it, or otherwise intervened that it would be the determing factor on which you based your decision. Clearlly if you did nothing to jepordise losing your license, I don't see any relevance. Were you thinking you might have to pull your gun on government and local law enforcement,"because that would get you shot, and then there would be nothing to worry about.
If you are speaing about "after the fact" you still leave me in the dark as to how your license has anything to do with anything.
Are you thinking you would be punished for saying something against what you saw?
If you did indeed whitnesd an injustice, or what you felt was one, you should follow your moral compass, wherever it leads you. Are you losing sleep over it?

Salmoneye
April 26, 2012, 09:15 PM
Why would you worry about your carry permit,

I 'assume' it stems from the fact that many states (as far as I understand) need the "Dominus Vobiscum" of the local constabulary in order to get, and maintain possession of, your CCW...

gym
April 26, 2012, 09:48 PM
Thats the NYC attitude, which I ran into over the 22 years I had a business there and had a permit that was issued because I fulfilled the thousand different requirements necessary to get one. It's the shall issue vs the may issue. I went through that for 22 yrs in NYC. you basically have no rights there unless they allow you to.I don't think this is a factor in his case, if i am wrong I stand corrected. You would have to have broken a law for that to hold up, otherwise you would beat them in court once you have it.

Johannes_Paulsen
April 27, 2012, 05:09 AM
Accepted as true, or occasionally/historically true in some places. But I'd say pretty rare in this age of openness and accountability (and the press out for the blood of any authority figure). Is this still something worth basing a decision to act or not upon? Do US citizens really live under fear of reprisal in 2012?

Well, the Meleanie Hain example in Pennsylvania jumps to mind... Not exactly the same fact pattern, since this was purely a high-handed bureaucratic decision that was overturned by the courts, not a retaliation, but the woman was w/o a license for about a month. (Significantly, she was later murdered by her estranged husband.)

http://courtweb.pamd.uscourts.gov/courtwebsearch/pamd/UhUqYQ5x0P.pdf

Worth worrying excessively about? Maybe not. A factor, though? Yes, a little. (Again, depending on jurisdiction....)

Davek1977
April 27, 2012, 07:54 AM
my ccw status has no bearing on what I feel is appropriate to report to the authorities. Futhermore, i do not believe that my permit would be in danger in such a situation. While I certainly dont agree with every decision they make, LEO's here are pretty rational, and I have no reason to believe the sheriff that issued my permit would seek to have in revoked.

I'm reminded of this quote "ll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." In this case, thats exactly what being silent would entail. To put one's rather invalid (imo) concerns about a permit being revoked over seeking justice for a murdered man is not only entirely self-serving, but cowardly beyond belief. As Sam alluded to, no one knows for certain what they'd do, but imo, this is a bit less of an extreme than the "if they come for your guns, will you go down shooting?" questions. The act of shooting of one of the supposed "good guys" would cause most people some hesitation. I'd like to think reporting an innocent man's murder would be less of a moral test for the average Joe, regardless if one carries or not

JShirley
April 27, 2012, 09:20 AM
So the question is: Would you report a murder, knowing that some in law enforcement would then not like you?

This really just seems like troll bait. What good can come of this thread? How does it help the the THR community, and the larger firearms community? It invites chest thumping. I thank Sam for trying to make this thread work, but I believe it's a doomed cause. And I don't really see much potential positive return for the effort he's making.

John

Kleanbore
April 27, 2012, 09:20 AM
Odd premise, strange question. This is going nowhere.

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