Buying a gun for an old friend (I live in Florida and he lives in Ohio)


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MannytheGreek
April 25, 2012, 05:02 PM
Hello,

I wanted to buy a firearm for an old friend's birthday. (most likely a mossberg shotgun) He is a recently appointed judge who has just started shooting and wants a pump action shotgun. I live in Florida, and he lives in Ohio.

Can I order the gun on cheaper than dirt, have it shipped to the FFL, and have him pick it up? Ideally it will be a surprise as it is for his birthday. If I buy it for him does that create a whole lot of legal/paper mess? I haven't done this before.

Thanks

MannytheGreek

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CoRoMo
April 25, 2012, 05:17 PM
Can I order the gun on cheaper than dirt, have it shipped to the FFL, and have him pick it up?
Yes. Keep in mind that he'll likely have to pay the FFL a transfer fee, although it's usually small. It's a good idea to contact the FFL first and it'll give you the opportunity to ask them what they will charge him. I don't know if you can then arrange to pay that for him too.
If I buy it for him does that create a whole lot of legal/paper mess?
Not really, as long as he's legally permitted to own the firearm, all he'll have to do is fill out some paperwork and have his background checked. I don't know if Ohio operates any differently in this regard than other states (my state does operate differently).

SDC
April 25, 2012, 05:17 PM
I believe this would be considered a "straw sale" by the ATF, since the person BUYING the firearm wouldn't be the person actually taking possession; there's no reason you couldn't have it shipped to you and then YOU giving it to him, but if your name is on the 4473, no dealer who values their licence is going to give it to anyone but you.

CoRoMo
April 25, 2012, 05:22 PM
...this would be considered a "straw sale" by the ATF...
Incorrect. A straw purchase does not apply to gifts.

SDC
April 25, 2012, 07:32 PM
But where the firearm isn't delivered DIRECTLY to the person filling out the 4473, ATFE still says that this is a strawman sale; it may in fact be legal for the OP to take possession of the shotgun and then send it to an FFL in his friend's state as a gift, but that isn't the situation laid out here, because he asked about sending the firearm without ever taking possession himself.

tyeo098
April 25, 2012, 10:31 PM
But where the firearm isn't delivered DIRECTLY to the person filling out the 4473,

His friend IS filling out the 4473.

The 4473 is filled out at the receiving FFL when the firearm arives from CTD.
Not a straw sale as OP's buddy would have to fill out a 4473.

1. OP calls FFL A in Ohio. OP tells A that he is purchasing a firearm as a gift for a friend from online and that if the FFL would be so kind as to receive the firearm and paperwork it over to his friend.
2. FFL either arranges for OP to pay the transfer, or makes OP's friend pay the transfer.
3. OP buys firearm from CTD and tells CTD to ship to FFL A with attn to OP's friend.
4. Firearm arrives at FFL A and A calls OP's friend telling him he has a present and if he could be so kind as to come on down and fill out the 4473 and/or other state paperwork.
5. OP's friend (presuming all goes well) goes home with his shiny new toy thanks to OP.
6. Maybe OP's friend will return the favour on OP's birthday/anniversary/FHC/graduation/solstice holiday.

Frank Ettin
April 25, 2012, 10:32 PM
What's important here is that the recipient will have to take possession of the shotgun through an FFL. That's a requirement of federal law since the parties are residents of different States.

But as long as the OP is using his money to buy the shotgun, and isn't getting reimbursed in cash or kind, it's a bona fide gift and not a straw purchase.

The actual crime involved is making a false statement on the 4473 about who the actual purchaser is. If the gun is being paid for by the OP and shipped by the vendor directly to the recipient's transfer FFL, the OP is never taking possession of the shotgun and therefore not completing a 4473. If the OP takes possession of the shotgun and ships it himself to the transfer FFL, since it's a bona fide gift, he would be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473.

tyeo098
April 25, 2012, 10:40 PM
about who the actual purchaser is. If

Transferee is the word on the 4473 that applies in this situation, as OP is the purchaser, but OP's friend is the actual transferee, therefore he can say YES to magical Brady box A.

Frank Ettin
April 25, 2012, 10:56 PM
Transferee is the word on the 4473 that applies in this situation...Where do you see the word "transferee" on the 4473?

tyeo098
April 25, 2012, 11:02 PM
Where do you see the word "transferee" on the 4473?
Magical Brady box number A. 4th word from the left.


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s249/tyeo098/Screenshot-4.png

Midwest
April 25, 2012, 11:02 PM
Here is another Option. Get a gift card for your friend for the price of the gun. Send the gift card to him. He buys the gun himself with the gift card, does the 4473 and NICS and everyone is happy.

Frank Ettin
April 26, 2012, 12:23 AM
tyeo098,

Looks like your revision of the 4473 is newer than the one in my files.

But I have to quibble with your analysis:Transferee is the word on the 4473 that applies in this situation, as OP is the purchaser, but OP's friend is the actual transferee, therefore he can say YES to magical Brady box A.

Since the OP is buying with his money the gun as a bona fide gift, if he is taking possession of it, he would be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473. But were he to be buying the gun on behalf of someone else, as that person's agent, using money that person provided, or in reliance on that person's promise of reimbursement, the OP could not truthfully claim to the the actual purchaser. If he were to claim to be the actual purchaser, he would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(6), and it would be a straw purchase.

tyeo098
April 26, 2012, 12:53 AM
tyeo098,

Looks like your revision of the 4473 is newer than the one in my files.

But I have to quibble with your analysis:

Since the OP is buying with his money the gun as a bona fide gift, if he is taking possession of it, he would be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473. But were he to be buying the gun on behalf of someone else, as that person's agent, using money that person provided, or in reliance on that person's promise of reimbursement, the OP could not truthfully claim to the the actual purchaser. If he were to claim to be the actual purchaser, he would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(6), and it would be a straw purchase.
So... we agree?

The gun is a gift, OP's friend fills out the 4473, not OP, when it arrives at OP's friends FFL.

Not a straw purchase. Perfectly legal.

Frank Ettin
April 26, 2012, 01:01 AM
So... we agree?

The gun is a gift, OP's friend fills out the 4473, not OP, when it arrives at OP's friends FFL.

Not a straw purchase. Perfectly legal.Yes, we agree.

MannytheGreek
April 26, 2012, 12:57 PM
Hey all,

Thanks for the responses. I find it kind of funny that buying a firearm for a friend who is a federal judge could be considered a "straw purchase." So this shouldnt be a problem then?

As a followup, how would I do this? Tell the people from cheaperthandirt that I am buying the firearm and will be transferring it to a friend? Call up the FFL beforehand and make sure it is ok and just order the firearm normally (to my friend's FFL in ohio)?

Thanks for your responses

-MannytheGreek

CoRoMo
April 26, 2012, 06:49 PM
So this shouldnt be a problem then?
Shouldn't be, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to handily mess up an easy task.
...how would I do this?
I'll tell you how I would do this. I'd contact the FFL and ask if they can receive a gun for transfer. If they say yes, I'd tell him where it is coming from and what type of gun it is. I'd give him the instructions to call __________ phone number when the gun arrives. That phone number would be the number of the person receiving the gift. He'll have to contact CTD and send them a copy of his license. I'd then order the gun from CTD, pay for it, and give them all the info on the receiving FFL, so that they know where to send it (they do this everyday). I'd ask that the package include a name for reference, and that name would be the person receiving the gift.
Tell the people from cheaperthandirt that I am buying the firearm and will be transferring it to a friend?
I would not do that. They don't need to know that. It's just another inconsequential piece of info that might freak someone out. Posts in this very thread, prove the point that knowledgeable gun people still don't know the difference between a gift and a straw sale.
Call up the FFL beforehand and make sure it is ok and just order the firearm normally (to my friend's FFL in ohio)?
Something like that. But again, if you tell the FFL that you're paying for it and someone else is receiving it, HE might even flip out and refuse the deal.

Let the sleeping dogs lay. Don't talk too much. It's perfectly legal. I've even done this very thing myself with sellers from GunBroker.

NavyLCDR
April 27, 2012, 01:13 AM
Just curious.... why can't the OP have it sent to his own FFL. He receives it via an FFL transfer with a form 4473, and then sends it to the next FFL for transfer to the person receiving it as a gift. That would be THE way to eliminate all doubt/hassle, but would likely add a few $$$ in shipping/transfer fees.

Bubbles
April 27, 2012, 09:03 AM
But again, if you tell the FFL that you're paying for it and someone else is receiving it, HE might even flip out and refuse the deal.
Sigh. Most of us have handled gift transactions. It is not a big deal.

CoRoMo
April 27, 2012, 10:49 AM
Just curious.... why can't the OP have it sent to his own FFL. He receives it via an FFL transfer with a form 4473, and then sends it to the next FFL for transfer to the person receiving it as a gift. That would be THE way to eliminate all doubt/hassle...
He can certainly do that. It's sort of like informing an officer that you're armed, during a traffic stop, when you have no obligation to do so; it's not necessary and could just as soon lead to more hassle than not. I'd also say that it's just a waste of time, and as one post put it...
...add a few $$$ in shipping/transfer fees.
:)
Sigh. Most of us...
Gag. I wasn't talking about the majority. The last time I gave my father a rifle (lives in a different state), it proved quite difficult to find a licensee who was willing to do the transfer. Most advised that I hand it to him, shake hands, and not tell anyone about the felonies we just committed. But I did find one licensee amongst the crowd that knew up from down.

tarakian
April 27, 2012, 05:27 PM
Why not just call his local FFL and order it through him? Leave CTD out of it.

"Hey LGD, I'd like to buy a new Mossberg for my friend Judge Soandso. Do you have them in stock or can you order one for him?"

No muss, no fuss.

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