best bolt action for a scout rifle build?


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jason41987
April 25, 2012, 07:17 PM
hey everyone.. ive been thinking of building a scout rifle (small, light weight, lighter caliber bolt action with open sights)...

anyway, my goal is a 16-18 inch barrel, maybe 20, open sights, adjustable real leaf (like the ones used on old mausers and nagants), id like to be stripper-clip fed, but less of a PITA with stripper clips than my mosin nagant is...

umm... my options are the remington 700 action, or a mauser 96/98 action... since its only a .308 and not some giant magnum caliber, i dont think i need the added diameter, length, or third locking lug present in a large-ring mauser, and believe the small ring to be the better choice

what do you guys think would match this criteria best?

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Robert
April 25, 2012, 07:24 PM
rcmodel will be along to explain in detail why a small ring mauser is not a good idea for 308. Long story short I believe they are not rated for the pressure that 308 can produce. If you hand load for it and keep the pressure low it should be ok. Using full pressure ammo could end poorly.

jason41987
April 25, 2012, 07:49 PM
aah yeah... i just noticed the 6.5x55 has a SAAMI of 55,000, im guessing thats maxed out for the action? .308 winchester is considerably hotter...

so besides the large-ring mauser, m1903 springfield, and remington 700 actions, what other actions could i consider?

.303
April 25, 2012, 07:51 PM
http://ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html

I think you would be more satisfied with one of these in the long run. no clip guide, but the new mags can be loaded through the top, so you could use strippers to top it off. mauser action. 16'' bbl with flash suppressor. whats not to love?

rcmodel
April 25, 2012, 07:58 PM
The stripper-clip thing limits you pretty much to a military action.
They already have built-in clip guides

03 Springfield or 98 Mauser would be the best to start with.

A G33/40 small ring 98 would be most excellent from a weight & strength point.
But you can buy a ready to shoot Savage Scout rifle for what they bring now.

In the grand scheme of things anymore though?
If you don't have the necessary tools and skills to convert a military action to a sporter?
Gunsmith costs will eat you alive before you get it done.

rc

jason41987
April 25, 2012, 08:26 PM
i have the skills and much of the tools needed to do whatever i want, including putting stripper clip guys onto a non military bolt action... also buying something isnt nearly as fun

heres a question though.. most, if not all mauser 98s ive had experience with are large ring, how does a large ring 98 mauser differ from large ring 98, and a small ring 96?

henschman
April 25, 2012, 08:35 PM
For a rifle with a leaf sight, I would look at an Ishapore Enfield. They came chambered in .308. They have detachable 12 round mags, and also feed from stripper clips. They have a longer barrel than you require, and aren't exactly light weight in original trim, but if you replaced the wood with a synthetic stock, or just cut down the wood, and maybe chopped the barrel, you could make it pretty handy.

A Spanish Mauser in 7.62x51 would be a good choice as well.

An FR-8 in 7.62x51 is just about ideal for a Scout, since they come with a 17.75" barrel, but they have a rear aperture instead of a leaf (which most people think is better, but different strokes and whatnot).

rcmodel
April 25, 2012, 08:45 PM
how does a large ring 98 Mauser differ from large ring 98, and a small ring 96? 1.100" Lg ring vis .980" Sm ring barrel threads.

And enough weight to make a difference on a light rifle design.

Forget the 96 for a .308.
They are not as strong as a 98 of either size, lack the 3rd. safety lug, and don't handle escaping gas nearly as well if things do go south.

Yes, they will work.
But IMO, it's not worth the risk to your face & eyes if they don't!

BTW: Buy this book!
It covers about every bolt-action ever made in strengths & weaknesses detail.
http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Action-Rifles-Expanded-Edition/dp/0873491688#_


rc

Husker1911
April 25, 2012, 08:54 PM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/Husker1911/Mohawk600.jpg

Might not be the "best," but it surely works well for me. Remington .308 Rem Mohawk 600. That's a Burris atop. Whitetails have nightmares about this medicine.

Edarnold
April 25, 2012, 08:57 PM
As an example of a small ring '98 action, the Mexican M1936 that I have for sale in the trading post area. Also a short action, built for the 7x57 cartridge and therefore more suitable for 7.62x51 than the longer Kar98 types.

wlewisiii
April 25, 2012, 09:26 PM
I'm in the process of doing one on a VZ-24 action. 19" barrel, 7x57, standard mil iron sights, Houge synthetic stock, Timney trigger, stock safety. Eventually I intend to get an S&K mount for the rear sight and a long eye relief red dot or, at most, 2x scope.

Edit: yes, it does have it's stripper guides. Much better carrying a couple of strippers rather than magazines.

The model 98 based mauser actions (licensed or clones) from between the wars are still probably the best actions for this kind of make over. Strong and easy to work with and still lots of them out there.

35 Whelen
April 25, 2012, 09:55 PM
You mean something like theez?:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Scout%20Rifle%20Project/Finished.jpg

Yes, it's a '96 (actually a 1916), but it hasn't blown up yet and I'm sure it'll outlive me as Ihave a long, long history of not blowing up rifles.

Or if you can find an FR-8, you can do something like this:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/FR-8/FR-8-1.jpg

If you don't want a scope, leave it off.

Edarnald is spot on if you want a '98 Mauser; the 1936 or 1910. I built a 257 AI on a 1910 many years ago.

I'm with you on the stripper guide, very handy as opposed to carrying extra mags in the case of a Ruger or Savage.

I know not everyone has the skills or desire to build their own rifles, but I'm with you 100% on building your own. I've built two and wouldn't trade them for a truck load of Steyr's, Ruger's or Savages. I think in our microwave, "I want it now" society, people have lost touch with the immense satisfaction of doing something themselves and thereby owning a very unique firearm rather than buying some mass produced, cookie cutter type.

35W

Craigman
April 25, 2012, 10:09 PM
NICE^^^

Haxby
April 25, 2012, 10:27 PM
I don't know what would be best, but I would like to know if there is any downside to the Remington Model 7 for this application.

303tom
April 25, 2012, 10:54 PM
The Type 38 Arisaka, they are plentiful & the action is super strong................

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=283598432

wlewisiii
April 25, 2012, 11:05 PM
35 Whelen, that is a beautiful rifle. Thank you for sharing it.

I'm doing everything on mine except spinning on the new barrel. I don't have the workshop to ensure it's done right and headspaced correctly. That detail aside, I'm in full agreement on the merits of doing it yourself. I also have a badly bubba'd Spanish M93 that I keep wondering about rebuilding in .257 Roberts but I think I may just keep it as it is (it shoots 7x57 just fine) as an example of what not to do. ;)

35 Whelen
April 25, 2012, 11:51 PM
35 Whelen, that is a beautiful rifle. Thank you for sharing it.



Thank you, and my pleasure. The neatest thing (to me) about the "beauty" of the stock in the top rifle is that it's the original stock. I always marvel at what beauty can come from a little TLC and a lot of hand rubbing with boiled linseed oil.

I really like Huskers little Mohawk 600.

35W

splithoof
April 25, 2012, 11:54 PM
My bet is that Ruger will soon offer a GSR version in .223 or similar, likely in stainless steel. That short rifle is so popular, the marketing folks there must chomping at the bit to release a version.

Ignition Override
April 26, 2012, 12:17 AM
Various people have pointed out on different websites how the Ruger "Scout" copied the idea of the Spanish FR8. Along with apertures for 200, 300 and 400 yards, the single open sight setting can work for 50-100 yards by fully elevating the post with the sight tool.

Both were preceded in 1945 by the Enfield "Jungle Carbine" for carrying through the nasty Burmese jungle, and also used in '56 against the Communist Insurrection in Malaysia.

Sheepdog1968
April 26, 2012, 02:21 AM
Lew Bonitz of Grizzly custom can modify a number of actions so you can use stripper clips. I called him and had a specific conversation about this topic. As for actions, I am fond of the light weight Kimbers as a starting point. My second choice would be the light weight Ruger action.

greenlion
April 26, 2012, 06:10 AM
Maybe someone asked and I missed it, but why would the magazine-fed Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle not be what you are looking for? The older military rifles had stripper clip cutouts because they also had fixed magazines usually holding 5 rounds. The Ruger rifle can hold 4 times that easily.

Moose458
April 26, 2012, 10:13 AM
German K98k with a Burris scout scope, turned out to be a tack driver.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg92/Moose458/257288-R1-16-17.jpg

ApacheCoTodd
April 26, 2012, 11:28 AM
You mean something like theez?:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Scout%20Rifle%20Project/Finished.jpg

Yes, it's a '96 (actually a 1916), but it hasn't blown up yet and I'm sure it'll outlive me as Ihave a long, long history of not blowing up rifles.

Or if you can find an FR-8, you can do something like this:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/FR-8/FR-8-1.jpg

If you don't want a scope, leave it off.

Edarnald is spot on if you want a '98 Mauser; the 1936 or 1910. I built a 257 AI on a 1910 many years ago.

I'm with you on the stripper guide, very handy as opposed to carrying extra mags in the case of a Ruger or Savage.

I know not everyone has the skills or desire to build their own rifles, but I'm with you 100% on building your own. I've built two and wouldn't trade them for a truck load of Steyr's, Ruger's or Savages. I think in our microwave, "I want it now" society, people have lost touch with the immense satisfaction of doing something themselves and thereby owning a very unique firearm rather than buying some mass produced, cookie cutter type.

35W
Whelen - is that an M1 Carbine front sight on the 1916? Super cool, that.

This thread kicks ass. The input here has done so much more to get me on board the "Scout Rifle" concept than everything I've read to date - put together!

I'm gettin' jazzed about finally having a direction for 2 project grade rifles I have. On is a VZ-24 action and the other s a Carcano carbine in horrendous shape after their usual Arisaka-grade build.

I think the notion of a stripper in my pocket (not Krystal down at the Bottoms Up) rather than loose rounds or worse yet, a magazine is what has really tipped me in favor of the style of rifle. The Carcano style of clip makes an even stronger argument still.

hang fire
April 26, 2012, 11:31 AM
FN 98, Israeli rebarreled to 7.62x51.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Scout2.jpg

Art Eatman
April 26, 2012, 11:32 AM
Back when Cooper first started writing about the Scout concept, he spoke favorably of the 600s. Availability was the issue...

buggley
April 26, 2012, 11:33 AM
K31, the oly way to go

dprice3844444
April 26, 2012, 11:39 AM
http://www.303british.com/id35.html

http://www.steyrscout.org/savscout.htm

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/index.shtm

http://www.legacysports.com/products/howa_baractions.html

MrDig
April 26, 2012, 11:50 AM
The Ishapore 2A 7.62/.308 is a great platform to start a scout build from. I am in process of building one and have run into a money snag but all I really need is the stock set from ATI, Scope and mounts

wlewisiii
April 26, 2012, 12:17 PM
Maybe someone asked and I missed it, but why would the magazine-fed Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle not be what you are looking for? The older military rifles had stripper clip cutouts because they also had fixed magazines usually holding 5 rounds. The Ruger rifle can hold 4 times that easily.
I dislike the single column magazine design and found, when I had a chance to try one, that I really disliked having the magazine stick out the way it does. Perhaps if they had used a double stack magazine like the Lee-Enfield's so that it didn't extend so far past the trigger guard I wouldn't be so bothered by it.

The mauser style internal 5 round double stack magazine, reloadable with strippers, gives me sufficient capacity, fast reloading and, most importantly, a rifle that is far easier to carry in hand and balances better when shooting. For me, at least; your milage will, of course, vary.

jason41987
April 26, 2012, 01:12 PM
what id like to do.. is have it set up for a detachable magazine... but still have stripper clip guides, so i can put a flush-fitting double stack 5 round on... for a lighter rifle, better balance, and use stripper clips with that.. or put a 10 round on if im looking for more capacity... stripper clips are much lighter to carry, allowing me to carry more ammo, and when they work right theyre about as quick to reload for me as a magazine... about the K31 though, the straight pull bolt seems like a good idea.... but from the trigger, to the bolt i could just as easily grab the bolt handle on my way there with a standard bolt action... then slide back, forward, and drop the bolt on my way back to the trigger, so a straight pull really isnt that much faster

does anyone know the ring size on the 1903 springfield design?... would that be lighter, or the same weight as a standard 98 mauser action?

35 Whelen
April 26, 2012, 07:16 PM
Whelen - is that an M1 Carbine front sight on the 1916? Super cool, that.

This thread kicks ass. The input here has done so much more to get me on board the "Scout Rifle" concept than everything I've read to date - put together!

I'm gettin' jazzed about finally having a direction for 2 project grade rifles I have. On is a VZ-24 action and the other s a Carcano carbine in horrendous shape after their usual Arisaka-grade build.

I think the notion of a stripper in my pocket (not Krystal down at the Bottoms Up) rather than loose rounds or worse yet, a magazine is what has really tipped me in favor of the style of rifle. The Carcano style of clip makes an even stronger argument still.

Why, yes it is an M1 Carbine front sight. You're very observant!

35W

ApacheCoTodd
April 26, 2012, 07:50 PM
I'll be pinchin' that Carbine sight (front and rear) idea should I get around to converting the Carcano.

greenlion
April 26, 2012, 09:20 PM
I dislike the single column magazine design and found, when I had a chance to try one, that I really disliked having the magazine stick out the way it does. Perhaps if they had used a double stack magazine like the Lee-Enfield's so that it didn't extend so far past the trigger guard I wouldn't be so bothered by it.

The mauser style internal 5 round double stack magazine, reloadable with strippers, gives me sufficient capacity, fast reloading and, most importantly, a rifle that is far easier to carry in hand and balances better when shooting. For me, at least; your milage will, of course, vary.


Yeah, I know what you mean. I love my old WW2 rifles, and the stripper clips on the mausers work pretty smoothly. There was a company (Australian maybe?) that was building new Enfields. I can't remember all the details, but..

dprice3844444
April 26, 2012, 11:38 PM
marstar,green.it's in my earlier post

303tom
April 27, 2012, 12:40 AM
The Ishapore 2A 7.62/.308 is a great platform to start a scout build from. I am in process of building one and have run into a money snag but all I really need is the stock set from ATI, Scope and mounts


Yes the Ishapore 2A is a great platform too.................

wlewisiii
April 27, 2012, 09:05 AM
I don't know, the Ishapor 2A is better done up Enfield style rather than scout style. At least that's how I did mine:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-odd0bMyZQPM/T4i48YXk-wI/AAAAAAAAERU/IyHaOvYt6Lo/s800/P4130474.jpg

arthury
April 27, 2012, 11:08 AM
why build when there is one available? (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/974/products_id/43531/Rifles/Savage/Savage+Centerfire/Savage%2010FCM%20SCOUT%20308%20DBM/)

wlewisiii
April 27, 2012, 11:22 AM
Probably because Savage's idea of a scout rifle is not the same as my idea of a scout rifle? I prefer a considerably different chambering (7x57 vs .308) and I certainly don't want the weight of a bipod (that I would never use) throwing the balance off on my rifle.

The scout rifle is a very individualized carbine. Everyone does it a little different from everyone else which is, I think, why all of the various factory ones have sold so poorly but people keep making them.

dprice3844444
April 27, 2012, 11:25 AM
I prefer a considerably different chambering (7x57 vs .308)7mm is a great caliber,but logistically speaking,when shtf,308 will be more plentiful than 7mm.

wlewisiii
April 27, 2012, 11:43 AM
I reload. And I don't do fantasy.

jason41987
April 27, 2012, 12:23 PM
i hate when people start a forum looking to make something, and people join in to try to get them to buy something... i guess they just dont understand... any schmuck can go out and buy something.... wheres the fun in that?

SimplyChad
April 27, 2012, 01:11 PM
Try a mosin. Then if you mess up it didnt cost you too much. Also ammo is plentiful.

jason41987
April 27, 2012, 09:43 PM
i have a mosin, and i think it would make a rather poor choice for such a rifle.. first off, theyre not very accurate at all, and second, the bolt handle is way too far forward requiring someone to reach further forward to grab the bolt handle, both reducing the time it takes to cycle, and throws your sights off target more... so im really thinking a springfield 1903 action, or a small-ring 98 action

ApacheCoTodd
April 27, 2012, 09:49 PM
Since you note the 700 in the Op... how about a short action Remington? A barrel started out at something like 40X dimensions would give you monster meat for the forward scope mounting then turn everything else down for weight.

Seems like you could once find the action to accept stripper clips too.

303tom
April 27, 2012, 10:07 PM
I don't know, the Ishapor 2A is better done up Enfield style rather than scout style. At least that's how I did mine:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-odd0bMyZQPM/T4i48YXk-wI/AAAAAAAAERU/IyHaOvYt6Lo/s800/P4130474.jpg
Yeah they are great like that too................

jason41987
April 27, 2012, 10:58 PM
i dont use scopes.. if i cant see it with my own eyes im not going to sit there and take my time through a piece of glass until i can.. i practice shooting what i can see, and i can see pretty far

hang fire
April 27, 2012, 11:11 PM
A decent scout scope is the best sight yet for fast target aquisition. IMO, if one thinks not, they have never used the right set up or have no idea as to what they are thinking.

henschman
April 28, 2012, 10:40 AM
IMO a red dot sight is faster than a scout scope. I think it is also a little better suited to the ranges that a Scout rifle would be typically used at, and helps keep it light weight. When I get around to doing a scout rifle, it will probably have an Aimpoint on it.

jason41987
April 28, 2012, 02:26 PM
a red dot would be better... but i wouldnt want to rely on battery powered devices... maybe a 1X scope with a long eye relief would be better, no batteries needed.. but i still prefer the simplicity, and light weight of a quality iron sight, and if the sights are anything like im used to im pretty fast enough for anything close range... and with the right iron sights and my decent enough eyesight id be well suited for medium range too

303tom
April 29, 2012, 12:46 AM
Something like this makes for some pretty fast target acquisition..........

splithoof
April 29, 2012, 02:14 AM
You can have a red-dot Scout Scope; SWFA sells a Leupold VX2 1.5-5X IER Scout Scope with the new Fire Dot reticle. It features a 30mm main tube, with the duplex Fire Dot in the center. Finish is either gloss or matte. Current price is $599. If you order the Leupold QRW 30mm low rings, they will fit directly to the Ruger GSR installed rail.

jason41987
April 29, 2012, 12:27 PM
i might consider holographic/red dot if it was something i could just grab and tear off the rifle if it malfunctioned, having the standard leaf and blade type iron sights as backup

rbernie
April 29, 2012, 12:41 PM
The problem with that idea is that you'll not find a bolt gun that can naturally co-witness the irons and the optic. What you get instead is an optic that sits higher than the irons, meaning that you'll either get a crappy jaw-weld instead of a cheek weld when using the optic (butt stock set up to align with the irons) or not be able to use the irons because you can't smoosh your face down far enough on the butt stock (butt stock set up for a proper cheek weld with the optic).

If you do go down this road, you will need to design and build iron sights tall enough to co-witness with the lowest optic mount that you can run.

jason41987
April 29, 2012, 12:57 PM
i would rather just stick with an iron sight.. but a good one, possibly with fiber-optics or tritium for low light

Averageman
April 29, 2012, 11:23 PM
rbernie
I had a similar issue scoping an M1A. Jaw hold wasnt going to work, so I built up what I call a potatoe. Small oblong piece of plastic, drill two small pillars, cover plastic with leather and you have good visual with your optics.
Pull the optics and the potatoe and you have irons.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r263/Averageman1/002.jpg
It isnt co witness, but it gives you more optical options and would work in this case with a scout rifle too.

henschman
April 29, 2012, 11:45 PM
The way I figure it, a FR-8 with an XS-Clifton Mauser scout mount will co-witness a red dot in a low ring. Look up a picture of a rifle with the mount... they sit pretty low.

I think a co-witnessed red dot is just about the ideal scout optic setup... light, fast, and easy to transition to irons if the dot craps out on you. Relying on batteries is not a big issue with the Aimpoints, since they will run for several years even with the dot left on constantly. So with a few tiny batteries, you can keep one going for decades. As for the range issue, if you need to spot at longer range when you're out scoutin', that's what binocs are for.

FYI an illuminated reticle scope, like that Leupold Scout, is not the same thing as a Red Dot Sight. The scope will still have magnification, eye relief, and parallax. The red dot has none of these, which is what makes it so fast.

35 Whelen
April 29, 2012, 11:53 PM
A red dot on a Scout rifle seems counterintuitive to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but red dots are designed for quick acquisition at relatively close ranges and as such they have large "dots" which would preclude any kind of precision shooting at ranges much over 100 yds. A Scout rifle chambered in .308 is easily a 400 yd. rifle.

35W

wlewisiii
April 30, 2012, 12:17 AM
It can be a 400 yard weapon, though any I carried would be optimized for 100 yards. For me, I'm still trying to figure out the co-witnessed irons & red dot problem on a bolt action. It may well turn out to be insurmountable, but I am still puttering with it.

If I actually expected to be shooting at 500 yards, I'd have that 14 lb. Ishapore I posted upthread along instead of a 7 lb. scout rifle because those are two very different environments; very different jobs. But then, I was a scout during a big chunk of my time in the US Army and that colors my approach.

splithoof
April 30, 2012, 06:32 PM
My plan is to use the optical sight, and remove it using the QD rings if the optical sight becomes damaged. The center red dot in the Leupold Fire Dot is not that large, and would likely be used for closer shots.

Ed1163
April 30, 2012, 10:27 PM
If Thor had a Mosin M44, he would've hung up his hammer. :-)

mpmax
May 2, 2012, 01:08 AM
Israeli Mauser-.308. Got it with a bulged barrel, cut it back to 18", replaced the stock with a choate, sexed up the bolt handle and added a redfield receiver sight. I've read that a Thompson Contender scope mount with mount to the barrel for a scout scope....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/mpmax/100_2625.jpg

wlewisiii
May 2, 2012, 10:02 AM
Got word I can pick up my VZ-24 action with new 19" barrel. Took him two & 1/2 months to get to mine, but, OTOH, the cost is only $50 :) Still need a stock and iron sights for it but I can deal with that down the road. Since the old mil irons wouldn't fit the new barrel (which is apparently a "different" mil step ;) ) I may just put a peep sight on the rear receiver & see if I can fit a M1 carbine front sight like up thread.

henschman
May 3, 2012, 02:16 PM
Yes, a red dot excels for up close shooting. They don't all have big fat dots that obscure your target at intermediate ranges, though. Many of the Aimpoints come with a 2 MOA dot. That will fully cover the kill zone of a deer at 800 yards, or a man's torso at 1000 yards, but would be very useable for distances under that, as long as you know your come-ups or hold-offs.

Red dots rarely have a dot that is fatter than the typical front post with iron sights... IMO they are useable to the same types of distances irons are, with the added advantage of quicker sighting up close. The reason I think a red dot would be good for a Scout is that the typical hunting or combat shot that is taken under 150 yards, which is right where a red dot is in its prime. Of course a forward mounted 2.5x scope is no slouch for closer distances either, but in my experience a red dot is a little faster, and useable in lower light.

Of course the optics should be set up for the typical distances at which you use the rifle. I don't know 35W, you've done a lot of hunting with your scout... what is the typical range you make your kills at? Do you think a 1x dot optic would have been a disadvantage for any of those?

Don357
May 5, 2012, 08:40 AM
Something no-one has mentioned is a M-48 Yugo Mauser. It's a large ring, intermediate length action/with stripper clip guide, and leaf sights. Comes in 8mm but can be rebarreld for whatever. Only two drawbacks tho'. It's heavy, but if you were considering other Mausers, thats not a deal breaker, and the other is, because of the intermediate length action, aftermarket stocks are hard to find. Another good thing bout the M-48 is that, even though it is a Mauser per-say, it has no historical value other than it is a military rifle, because it was built after WW2, and very few even saw combat action because Yugoslavia had already adopted the AK47 by the time of the revolution. (I have one in military new condition with all matching numbers that I only paid $160 out the door for 3years ago.) Anyway, that being said, modifying one would only hurt the feelings of the most radical hardcore purists. Just my opinion and suggestion.

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