[dubya450]

A buddy and I are planning on going on a bobcat hunt next year and I was wondering what bullet weight/type would be the best for minimal pelt damage using my 25-06. I know there are probably better calibers I could use but i sold my 223 and all i have is a 25-06, 30-30, and 338 wm and I'm not going to buy a new rifle for one hunt. Anyone use a 25-06 for bobcats or coyote? What bullet? Thanks.
btw my buddy is using his 243.

[dubya450]

Anyone?? Even just experience bobcat hunting at all with whatever caliber? Or coyote hunting? I'm sure the 25-06 would have the same effect on both but i haven't hunted either one yet.

[osprey176]

I have only shot one bobcat,and that was during a deer hunt.I used a 150 grain ,30-06 Speer I think.The bullet zipped right thru without doing much pelt damage,just two holes.Dropped him on the spot.I would stay away from varmint bullets,as they expand quickly and violently,and would most likley tear a large hole in the pelt on exit.

[Flintknapper]

Depending upon the distance you expect to encounter the bobcat, a FMJ or
Banded Solid Spitzer might be the best thing in terms of keeping pelt damage to a minimum.

If you handload....Barnes makes a 90 grain BSS bullet that would do well for you.

Finding Full Metal Jacketed factory ammo for your 25-06 would be tough...I imagine.

Bobcats are not hard to kill, are thin skinned and not very wide in cross section, so they are susceptible to large exit holes when major calibers are used.

If you plan on calling the Bob Kittys...I would just use the one rifle (your buddy's .243). You will not have multiple cats come in....like coyotes sometimes do.

Typically, they are slow and deliberate and like to "hang up" at various distances, so you'll have plenty of time to shoot. Just share the .243 or try to find a non expanding bullet for yours.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Unless you load it way down and use a 75gr BTHP, you are going to have an exit. Even with my favorite V-Max or Varmint Grenade. So I , like Flint suggested, would go with a very tough bullet that wouldn't expand on the little kitty. 2 tiny holes. A good Taxidermist can repair them pretty well.

[Art Eatman]

Odds are that any factory load from any of the three cartridges which were mentioned is going to create a large exit wound.

For a handload in a .25-06, I'd select a heavy bullet which is designed for penetration, and download it with 2400 powder. At most, 25 grains. 20 would likely work well. I'd look for a muzzle velocity of around 2,000 ft/sec.

[dubya450]

Thanks guys. I'm buying a new scope for the rifle. Ill probably call Leupold and have them make me a vx-3 2.5-8x36 with their version of the BDC recticle, give them the load data for hornady superformance 25-06 with gmx bullets so i have no hold over guessing for those longer shots. I use the hornady gmx for deer with the rifle and think I'll try it out on varmints because its developed/known for its deep penetration and I'm guessing it probably won't expand too much and "explode" smaller critters like some bullets do. You guys think I'd be okay using that setup/bullet? I'd really like to stick to one universal load I cab use for deer and varmints.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I would go with the Interbond instead of the GMX. The GMX is a ballistic tipped controlled expansion so it would open a little on entry even on a thin skinned cat. Granted, probably not much but it would open somewhat. The Interbond on the other hand would most likely not open at all and zip right through. They also perform exceptionally well on deer and hogs. I use the Interlocks and Interbonds almost exclusively for deer and hogs. Smacked a few yotes and groundhogs with them as well when the occasion arose and they zipped right through both from my 7mm.08.

[tri70]

I would stick with a Sierra soft point, good accuracy and not over expanding.

[Flintknapper]

If you are determined to use the "25" for bobcat...then do what you can to minimize pelt damage. That means using a sturdy bullet (non expanding if possible), keeping the velocity as low as possible.... and DON'T shoot for the shoulder or take frontal shots.

A bobcat's lungs extend well beyond its shoulders...so you can get away with placing a bullet a few inches back (off the shoulder), on broadside shots.

As Art pointed out....unless you hand load and can decrease velocity, the hydrostatic shock from ANY bullet could result in a nasty exit hole, though I've shot a few bob kittys with a C/T BST (140 grain...in 7mm-08) and not messed them up too badly.

Good luck on your hunt.

Flint.

[dubya450]

Freedom fighter, do you know of any factory ammo loaded with interbonds? Ill get a box and see how well they shoot compared to the gmx. I'm actually in the process of buying loading equipment and learning the art but i also just bought a house and have to get a dedicated room set up to do so, so it'll be a few months.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

This load would do well on deer and would meet your needs on the cats as well http://www.hornady.com/store/25-06-Rem-117-gr-BTSP/

[jmorris]

Everything you listed will work as will a .22lr. They are not monsters, most being smaller than some house cats I have seen. Make sure you don't hunt by my mothers house, they are the only thing that can keep the rabbits at bay enough for her to have flowers around the house.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/farm/bob.jpg

[dubya450]

Jmorris that is an awesome picture! Is that in a neighborhood? Or more of a rural area?

[Art Eatman]

Go forth! Or fifth, but drink it, don't plead it. :)

May you have success and show us this sort of photo:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=356&d=1042252697

[solvability]

I assumed a 180gr corelok from a 30-06 would not expand on a squirrel - I do not know if the bullet expanded but the squirrel did - it rained down for about 2 minutes with no two hairs stuck together. Perhaps a 22 or a shotgun with Turkey shot?

[dubya450]

Art, thats what I'm hoping for! I think a bobcat would look really nice above the fireplace in the house i just bought, next to my 10 point whitetail (first buck ever) I shot last year.

[jmorris]

Jmorris that is an awesome picture! Is that in a neighborhood? Yep, my dad noticed them one morning and had a camera near by.


My niece snapped this one from her phone a few weeks later. You can make out the reflection in the glass door. Also note the fence in the background where the family stopped for the photo above. A lot closer than you see them "in the wild"

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/farm/hunbob.jpg

[Art Eatman]

I have a hanging bird feeder under the eave of my front porch, and I scatter grain in the yard for quail and doves. The area thus smells very "birdy" to coyotes, foxes and bobcats.

I was sitting at the computer one afternoon about 3:30 and was staring rather blankly out the window. Lo! And behold! A bobcat wanders casually up onto the porch, looks around, briefly, and wanders on down the porch and off and away on his kitty-cat doings. (Naturally, the camera was not readily at hand. :()

[jmorris]

Lo! And behold! A bobcat wanders casually up onto the porch, looks around, briefly, and wanders on down the porch and off and away on his kitty-cat doings.
like this?
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/farm/bob3.jpg

[jrdolall]

I generally kill a couple every year during rifle season. 30-06 makes a large exit hole but it can be fixed nicely by the taxidermist. I shot this one in November of 2011 with a 150 grain Federal at around 25 yards and it made a good exit wound. That shot was right behind the shoulder broadside and, as you can see, the entry wound is not apparent. This one went to a buddy who wanted one for his lodge. I shot a smaller one out of the same stand a few weeks later.

I have killed many with a shotgun during turkey season as I was calling. I must sound just like a turkey because I get one every couple of years. I think a .22 would do nicely inside 50 yards.

Last year I watched three small cats hunting a briar thicket in front of my deer stand. They were all working seperately and I could not get a good shot. I try to remove them because of the toll they take on the turkey population.

[snakeman]

I would use a 120 grain gameking. It will hold together and not blow up as much pelt. Better yet go and get you a 22 mag or 17 hmr. They put down bobcats just fine, the only problem is finding them afterwards.

[mnhntr]

Both the .243 and 25-06 are going to ruin the pelts. You need a smaller caliber or learn to sow.

[mnhntr]

Oh and our MN bobcats are bigger than housecats. Here is a 36lb and a 28lb cat. If you are using a shotgun use #4 buck.

[Flintknapper]

Shooting Bobcats (or any other small fur-bearer) using relatively large calibers, will always be a “gamble” in terms of pelt damage.

There are things you can do to ‘minimize’ the potential damage, such as reducing velocity, using a bullet least likely to expand, staying off the shoulder with shot placement, etc….

Here is a Kitty my daughter shot this year with her 7mm-08, 140 gr. C/T BST, distance 40 yds.

The photo actually shows the exit side (damage not even discernible). So…minimal pelt damage can happen with larger calibers, but don’t expect it.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/JMAC_CAT2.jpg

[allaroundhunter]

Flint, hit one of 'em with that .450 SOCOM of yours and and give us a picture ;)

[Bobson]

I can't help but think that every single bobcat pic supplied looks strikingly similar to a cat my parents freed and call a pet in rural PNW.

[dubya450]

Mnhntr, where were those cats killed if you don't mind me asking ? The guide service we're thinking of using in near the Canadian border. Itd be nice to find somewhere closer tp home (Anoka).

So most people suggest using something that doesn't expand which makes sense now my other question is what would be the ideal shot placement ? Would it be like most big game, heart/lungs? I know to stay away from shoulder or bone with any mass if I want to keep the pelt intact. I'm assuming a through and through lung shot would be ideal?

[mnhntr]

I got these in Wadena county

[Feanor]

Everything you listed will work as will a .22lr. They are not monsters, most being smaller than some house cats I have seen. Make sure you don't hunt by my mothers house, they are the only thing that can keep the rabbits at bay enough for her to have flowers around the house.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/farm/bob.jpg
Outstanding image capture.

http://s1056.photobucket.com/albums/t369/Feanor131/?action=view&current=003.mp4

[bikerdoc]

I got one a few yrs ago with a 357 lever action at about 40 yrds with a 180 gr bullet. DRt but tore up the pelt.

[2zulu1]

The 25-'06 is a lot of gun for a bobcat, what distances are you anticipating shooting at?

[Scott_R]

If you can get the reloading up by then, Hodgdon has data for the 100gr Nosler partition with Trail Boss powder from 1454 to 1712 fps.

I don't know much about the 25-06, OR bob-cat hunting, but ... data below:

100 GR. NOS PART IMR Trail Boss .257" 3.200" 13.4 1454 25,500 PSI 19.2 1712 30,600 PSI

[spclpatrolgroup]

These were taken post deer season, apparently my cousin had shot 2 deer at once wtihout knowing it, they didnt find the other carcas until much later and drug it out infront of a trail cam. As far as bullet, I assume a bobcat is like a fox, my 22-250 wtih 55gr Hornady SP, will punch through a fox without too much damage, a .223 does a much better job. Using a Nosler balistic tip does way too much damage to fox, there isnt enough fox avaliable to allow the damage to stay on the inside.

[phil dirt]

why shoot a bobcat? Are you going to eat it?

[mnhntr]

If you kill an appropriate number of predators to keep them in check then your game populations are better. Thus trapping and predator hunting are needed to maintian a healthy balance.

[langenc]

Small hole desirable. Some are saying taxidernist can fix so Iguess you are doing a mount.

Bobcat hides will be very profitable. I didnt read where you will be hunting. Some western cats sold recently for over 1000$$ and average at a fur sale was over $800..avg of well over 1000 hides.

[HarcyPervin]

If you kill an appropriate number of predators to keep them in check then your game populations are better. Thus trapping and predator hunting are needed to maintian a healthy balance.

I have a hard time believing that our predator population is that high in MN (especially in Bobcats) I know I've never even seen a wild one. I don't disagree with hunting them for other reasons though...

[oneounceload]

The only bobcats and mountain lions I have seen taken were with 38 spl after being treed by dogs - one shot, DRT. I would think a 25-06 would go be fairly devastating if you are trying to get good pelts for sale

[HGUNHNTR]

^ I agree partially. I don't like killing animals for fun. If you tell yourself that you are actually helping the predator population by killing off predators I think you are lying to yourself. Bobcats aren't exactly swarming the country like English Sparrows.
Just my opinion.

[Art Eatman]

A rancher north of Uvalde, Texas, stocked his 7,000 acres with 1,000 goats. The first year, the kid crop was around 600. He went on a serious varmint eradication program. The next year, some 800 in the kid crop. His east pasture was not quite 3,000 acres, where the trapper got over 30 bobcats, plus coyotes.

The deer herd grew, and we saw more turkeys and blue quail around his ranch.

[HGUNHNTR]

^ With a decrease in predation you are bound to see more prey animals, but outside of making it easier to hunt game for humans, what benefit does this have to the ecosystem? It seems we are constantly trying to upset the predator prey balance to make it easier for human predators to take game. Maybe we should work on a balanced ecosystem, and honing our skills.
FWIW I don't have any sympathy for ranchers, its a cost the doing business in the wild. If you think a percentage of your profit is worth disrupting nature you aren't a very good steward of the land.

[jmorris]

FWIW I don't have any sympathy for ranchers, its a cost the doing business in the wild. If you think a percentage of your profit is worth disrupting nature you aren't a very good steward of the land.

Or like the photos I posted above, homeowners. My folks not only didn't mind them but liked them around as they were the only thing that could keep the rabbit population in check. I guess the cats also liked peoples pets so the HOA had them taken care of.

There are only two things I have seen kill just for fun, humans and cats. Only humans also kill for convenience.

[Scott_R]

Hunting bobcats is regulated in Georgia by the DNR. I think they've got a pretty good handle on the population growth and hunting seasons, et al.

According to them, trappers typically harvest between 1500-1800 cats per year, and hunters take 3-5 times that amount.

You may not want to eat the meat, but you can certainly purchase beans after selling the pelts.

[jrdolall]

Can't speak to other areas of the country but we are covered up with bobcats. Anyone who has any type of livestock or pets and lives in a rural area around here will do what they can to control predators.
FWIW I don't have any sympathy for ranchers, its a cost the doing business in the wild. If you think a percentage of your profit is worth disrupting nature you aren't a very good steward of the land.
Sorry but that statement is pretty much hogwash. As a "rancher" it is absolutely necessary to remove animals that will kill my livestock. Coyotes, feral dogs and cats, bobcats, raccoons can cost a rancher/farmer $1000s of dollars during calfing and/or with fowl. I don't know how many of the above can bring down a full grown cow but a calf is almost helpless.
In a truly wild environment the predator population is controlled by the amount of available food. The fact that ranchers are doing their best to produce what predators consider food means that the natural method of controlling predators in moot. I have no idea how many predators I have killed in the past 30 years but it numbers in the hundreds and every season there are plenty more of them around so i don't think I have "disrupted nature" as much as a person that lives in a subdivision where trees once grew.

[jrdolall]

.Only humans also kill for convenience
__________________

I think most predators in the wild kill for reasons other than food. Have you ever watched National Geographic and seen male lions kill cubs so that the female will come back into heat? Most males will kill other males for breeding rights. It is perfectly "natural" to remove competition for resources and it happens in the wild every day. Apparently nature thinks it is more "convenient" to kill your competition than it is to just move to another area.

[Quat]

.
__________________

I think most predators in the wild kill for reasons other than food. Have you ever watched National Geographic and seen male lions kill cubs so that the female will come back into heat? Most males will kill other males for breeding rights. It is perfectly "natural" to remove competition for resources and it happens in the wild every day. Apparently nature thinks it is more "convenient" to kill your competition than it is to just move to another area.
Had skunks decapitate 9 chickens one time, and about 15 young quail in a pen once. It ate part of one and left all the rest.

Uncle used to have trouble with a ranch that was close to a town, dogs would go out and kill calves, for no other reason than to kill them.

[HGUNHNTR]

I have no idea how many predators I have killed in the past 30 years but it numbers in the hundreds and every season there are plenty more of them around so i don't think I have "disrupted nature" as much as a person that lives in a subdivision where trees once grew.
Well you've painted your picture as a lesser of two evils and created a beautiful false dichotomy. Congrats.

[Scott_R]

Have I stumbled into the Peta forum?

Harvesting game animals according to the laws associated with it IS conservation.

[Rem.222]

I would use the 30-30 if scoped with 150gr cast lead flat nose. Will kill without bullet blow up.

[mnhntr]

I have a hard time believing that our predator population is that high in MN (especially in Bobcats) I know I've never even seen a wild one. I don't disagree with hunting them for other reasons though...
Let me guess you live in the metro? I know guys in hunting groups who take 15-20 cats a year in the same area. I have seen 3 in 20 yrs of hunting while hunting other species. I see a lot more when hunting or trapping them. Why would there be a season if the numbers were so low? Your arguement is the exact reason for the wolf problem in MN.

[jrdolall]

There is no bag limit in Alabama on coyotes and bobcats. I see coyotes 10 to 1. Bobcats are usually only in early morning or late afternoon while deer and turkey hunting. Coyotes are all times of the day all over the farm.

[Art Eatman]

Well, HGUNHNTR, in my example, that rancher gained about $10,000 in gross income for the year. Sorta helped with his school taxes, which back then were $4,000 per year. Also helped pay for the original purchase price of the goats. Livestock doesn't come free to a rancher.

Folks seem to want to eat, last I heard, which means that a farmer or rancher has to make a profit in order to keep on keeping on and producing food. So, predator control. A side benefit of that effort is that there is more game for the hunter.

Heck, crows, deer and raccoons can do terrible things to a farmer's corn crop...

[jmorris]

Coyotes, feral dogs and cats, bobcats, raccoons can cost a rancher/farmer $1000s of dollars during calfing and/or with fowl. . I'll throw in poisonous snakes and feral hogs. Never seen a hog eat a calf but I have seen them make a 20 acre hay field useless in under a week.

[dubya450]

There are definitely plenty of bobcat here from what I understand although I've only seen 2 while deer hunting in 11 or 12 seasons, I have a few coworkers and family members who farm in Wisconsin and Minnesota and they don't speak too highly of any varmint including bobcat. If anyone is wondering, ill probably mount the cat for my garage. I think they are too beautiful of an animal to sell the pelt unless I were to hunt many over the years.

[HGUNHNTR]

Well, HGUNHNTR, in my example, that rancher gained about $10,000 in gross income for the year. Sorta helped with his school taxes, which back then were $4,000 per year. Also helped pay for the original purchase price of the goats. Livestock doesn't come free to a rancher.

Folks seem to want to eat, last I heard, which means that a farmer or rancher has to make a profit in order to keep on keeping on and producing food. So, predator control. A side benefit of that effort is that there is more game for the hunter.

Heck, crows, deer and raccoons can do terrible things to a farmer's corn crop...

Hey Art, I understand where you're coming from, heck I grew up on a farm in Nebraska. My point is simply that profit need not trump balance. One thing my grandfather (deceased now, but a heck of a farmer and cutting horse trainer)taught me, is that it is pointless to be at war with the land and it's inhabitants. You have to learn how to work with them to be profitable, and to make sure you have something of value to pass along to your grandkids. He always railed against how chemical companies presented the farmer with the idea that they were at war with predators, insects and weeds. Just look at commercials for weedkillers and insect killers even aimed at suburbanites--kind of a war theme to most of them. He said if you take that stance you will always lose to nature, and at the great expense of the quality of food you produce, and the condition of the land you create. I'm not saying predator control at some level isn't neccesary, I just don't like the idea of killing critters you have no intention of eating just for the fun of it.

[pat86323]

I would say that people who think that bobcats are a rare animal need to slow down and be quieter in the woods. I have seen 4 in the last year, and there are tons more then that. These animals are very stealthy and their camo is greatly underestimated. If they know you are there they dont always run off like a coyote, they will just hunker down and quietly wait for you to leave, thus you never see them. I have also heard of lots of people eating them. I shot one at 8 yards on opening morning of archery deer season last year, very little pelt damage and now he looks really good on my wall. To answer the op's question.....why not just use a 22?

[Feanor]

If you kill an appropriate number of predators to keep them in check then your game populations are better. Thus trapping and predator hunting are needed to maintian a healthy balance.
Your statement is misleading, and I've hunted bobcat. You(we)are the reason for the imbalance, not the bobcat, or any other predator for that matter, just humans are responsible.

So, please don't construct your response as though you're doing nature a favor, you're not! Predator hunting is highly controversial, you should plainly understand that, most hunters don't approve of us shooting/trapping these predators, just a fact!

[jrdolall]

Predator hunting is highly controversial, you should plainly understand that, most hunters don't approve of us shooting/trapping these predators, just a fact!

Uh, I don't think this is a fact. Maybe where you live "most hunters don't approve" but in the places where I hunt (Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Montana, Wyoming, Arkansas and Mississippi every year and a few others every couple of years) it is pretty much the norm. Every single land owner I hunt with encourages the shooting of predators within the law. Humans have created an imbalance by providing a relatively easy source of food for these predators. I guess we could all stop eating beef and then my incentive to remove predators would fall off.

Coyotes were around for a long time before they spread as far as they have but there was not enough food for them to thrive in the southeast 200 years ago. Now anyone who goes anywhere in the outdoors realizes that they are a nuisance. Where I live there is no limit and no closed season on coyote so I guess the state of Alabama approves of predator hunting.

Those of us who own farms, ranches or any kind of livestock are going to remove predators from our farms as often as possible. I don't fling bullets at every coyote I see but I will kill them if a good opportunity comes up and I let hunters call them outside of deer season.

[mnhntr]

Your statement is misleading, and I've hunted bobcat. You(we)are the reason for the imbalance, not the bobcat, or any other predator for that matter, just humans are responsible.

So, please don't construct your response as though you're doing nature a favor, you're not! Predator hunting is highly controversial, you should plainly understand that, most hunters don't approve of us shooting/trapping these predators, just a fact!
I never said we din't create the imbalance but as people encroach wildlife it is needed to provide a balance or rebalance. I do not give a rats behind what others think of predator hunting. I enjoy all types of hunting and will hunt and trap cats as long as it is legal. Some real FACTS for you about predator control, since it was started around areas with good nesting habitat for waterfowl the population began to rebound. More and more trapping and hunting in the pothole states allows for better duck broods. That IS doing nature a favor so get off your high horse.

[Feanor]

Every single land owner I hunt with encourages the shooting of predators within the law.

And there it is, the problem exactly!

[Scott_R]

Don't you have game wardens / DNR where you live?

Don't they evaluate populations and set limits and [closed or open] seasons on different animals? (Including predators)

Don't these numbers change every year?

What do you think these rules/seasons/limits are for?

Shooting predator animals at or under the legal limit is helping to balance the population, as deemed appropriate by those that manage these populations for a living. It is what they do.

[DMH]

Coyotes are a problem in Minnesota, numbers are up every year. Bob cats, farm cats, snakes and coyotes effect upland bird populations and duck populations. Coyotes learn where the easy meals are and are working closer and closer to towns every year. I have two wood duck houses I clean and maintain yearly. On years with low water levels I have had coyotes tip the metal support pole over. I have modified the wood duck houses since that time. Fox will wait along the garage and pounce on the bird feeders getting cardinals and jays. I've see crows kill owls during the daylight. Like said earlier in this thread it does not pay to fight nature. It's all in the cycle of things, killing cats, snakes and coyotes to control their population is very often necessary.

The polar ice caps on mars are melting, and its mans fault!

DMH

[Feanor]

I never said we din't create the imbalance but as people encroach wildlife it is needed to provide a balance or rebalance. I do not give a rats behind what others think of predator hunting. I enjoy all types of hunting and will hunt and trap cats as long as it is legal. Some real FACTS for you about predator control, since it was started around areas with good nesting habitat for waterfowl the population began to rebound. More and more trapping and hunting in the pothole states allows for better duck broods. That IS doing nature a favor so get off your high horse.
Look, I'm not chastizing, just looking to be clear as to what, and where, the problems associated with "imbalance" emerge from.

Consider, you live in Minnesota, I in Wisconsin, where combined, the two states have well in excess of two million white tail deer, as recently as 2008-9 Wisconsin's herd alone, was approaching two million animals! Balance? Back in the early 1930's there was an estimated 300,000 white tail deer, in all of the USA!

This is precisely why predator hunting is controversial, it is not possible for us to rebalance the system, and we have a serious problem unfolding as a consequence. CWD is poised to become a terrifyingly common occurrance, its spreading in the Wisconsin herd, and its not going to go away as things currently stand.

In Wisconsin, we estimate that at the time of European settlement, we had about 5,000 black bear, today the population is running between 33,000 - 40,000 animals! There is no historical precedent for these figures, a direct consequence of our interference(humans)in the natural system, especially through our virtually unchecked agricultural conquest of the land.

In Minnesota, you are losing your moose herd, its already gone from the northwestern portion of the state entirely, and its heading exactly that way in the northeast. Its now believed that they are being doomed due to a parasite, introduced through white tail deer into the environment, harmless to the deer, catastrophic to the moose.

Dozens of other examples exist, none of them very encouraging, coyotes are virtually an infestation in parts of the midwest, ranchers/farmers curse them for the scourge that they can be, however lost entirely on these good folks, is that they are largely responsible for this, an unthought of consequence of their merciless persecution of the coyotes primary natural enemy, the gray wolf! Balance?

Predator hunting needs to be closely monitored, we're not balancing anything, nature balances itself, we are clearly unbalancing the system.

[Feanor]

That IS doing nature a favor so get off your high horse.

You are not doing nature a favor, you are doing yourself a favor, then rationalizing it away as a contribution. What exactly is that you think you're balancing, we have almost three million deer in the two states! Why are we killing off predators? Think about that before gettng all snooty, and emotional.

[Feanor]

Coyotes are a problem in Minnesota, numbers are up every year. Bob cats, farm cats, snakes and coyotes effect upland bird populations and duck populations. Coyotes learn where the easy meals are and are working closer and closer to towns every year. I have two wood duck houses I clean and maintain yearly. On years with low water levels I have had coyotes tip the metal support pole over. I have modified the wood duck houses since that time. Fox will wait along the garage and pounce on the bird feeders getting cardinals and jays. I've see crows kill owls during the daylight. Like said earlier in this thread it does not pay to fight nature. It's all in the cycle of things, killing cats, snakes and coyotes to control their population is very often necessary.

The polar ice caps on mars are melting, and its mans fault!

DMH
Your comments are ridiculous, and obtuse.

[Art Eatman]

More "inciting to riot" squabbling than actual discussion.

Look: Most outdoorsmen figure that they're part of nature, one way or another. Farmers and ranchers: More four-legged predators, fewer domestic chickens and turkeys, sheep, goats, cows, horses. So, predator control via poison, trap or firearm.

Hunters: More bobcats and coyotes, fewer quail and wild turkeys. Fewer deer. Folks don't like that sort of thing, so we have the shooting of predators.

Homo sap is the top predator because homo sap is a tool-using animal. Nature/biology made us that way. All we can hope for is that our behavior is one of common-sense control, not eradication.

SFAIK, the problem in states with "too many" deer is that our rules and regs are holdovers from the time when populations were much lower. The whitetail deer gets along just fine with farming and ranching and the population grows and grows. The absence of wolves and cougars hasn't been replaced by enough predation by homo sap. Longer seasons and higher bag limits would help--along with more hunters.

So, like most interactions between people and the world we live in, we stumble along as best we can.

[daveinohio]

The number one threat to wildlife worldwide is the ever increasing human population. If you are increasing it you are doing more harm than what you do by shooting a few animals for sport, food, or profit.

[HGUNHNTR]

I guess we could all stop eating beef and then my incentive to remove predators would fall off.


That would provide real and lasting benefit for the ecosystem, our bodies, and our insurance premiums. I'll vote for that one.

You are not doing nature a favor, you are doing yourself a favor, then rationalizing it away as a contribution. What exactly is that you think you're balancing, we have almost three million deer in the two states! Why are we killing off predators? Think about that before gettng all snooty, and emotional.

Well I can agree with this. Most hunters I talk to claim that part of the reason for hunting is that they are being over run with deer. If this is part of the reason for hunting them, it would stand to reason that we dont' try to eliminate our allies in the quest to thin the herds to acceptable levels.

[michaelbsc]

The polar ice caps on mars are melting, and its mans fault!

You don't remember we sent those two cars up there?

Of course it's our fault.

[Feanor]

That would provide real and lasting benefit for the ecosystem, our bodies, and our insurance premiums. I'll vote for that one.



Well I can agree with this. Most hunters I talk to claim that part of the reason for hunting is that they are being over run with deer. If this is part of the reason for hunting them, it would stand to reason that we dont' try to eliminate our allies in the quest to thin the herds to acceptable levels.
Recently(in early April)the state of Wisconsin released its annual reports on various issues pertaining to wildlife, including management of the white tail deer herd, and the upcoming wolf hunt. In their deer report they offer that the Wisconsin herd should be culled down from its current 1.4 million to some seven or eight hundred thousand, which is simply laughable.

The gray wolf season, bannered by the deer hunters association, bear hunters association(they wrote the bill), and the cattlemans association, as a check on out of control gray wolf populations, is set for later this autumn, its to be four months long, and opened too trapping, and the use of packs of radio/shock/spike collared dogs, night vision equipment(yes that means 24 hour per day hunting), right up too, and through the breeding season, "four months!"

Oh BTW, we have just under eight hundred gray wolves, as you can see, its not about balance, its about dollars, and thats all its ever been about! Now I'm a hunter, but I have to confess, it gets a little bit weird when we as a group, attempt to inculcate ourselves with this "we're doing nature a favor" mentality. "Doing nature a favor" is an intellectually dishonest rationalization to go do what we were going to do no matter what.

[jrdolall]

Well if we want to control the population of whitetails then we can completely do away with deer seasons and limits. Just let people kill what they want when they want. In very short order the population would be close to where the turkey population was 50 years ago.
This would give the government in the state a good excuse to raise taxes because they would lose the tax money associated with hunting. Deer are populous because hunters want themto be populous.

[HarcyPervin]

Let me guess you live in the metro? I know guys in hunting groups who take 15-20 cats a year in the same area. I have seen 3 in 20 yrs of hunting while hunting other species. I see a lot more when hunting or trapping them. Why would there be a season if the numbers were so low? Your arguement is the exact reason for the wolf problem in MN.

I live in Plymouth, spent my share of time out of the city as well, but I thank you for the condescending attitude. I'm not against predator hunting, just against the bandwagoning justifications some people have for it. Subsistance hunting is pretty much dead in MN, except for a very few people who may actually take animals for pelts. The rest of this is sport, and think about it before you get all puffed up. I hunt for sport, I eat the game I take, but it is not taken because I NEED it. Add up all the dollars spent on hunting and that's some damn expensive meat, but that doesn't stop us from going out in the woods.

Justifying predator hunting because there is a season is a backwards argument as well. There is a season because there is a demand for one. There is a perceived benefit, as was pointed out above, for not having predators around.

Wolf problem in MN? Not entirely. Competition for resources with a small population of wolves and a hugely oversized prey population, yes.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hunting bobcats, wolves, coyotes or anything like that, all I pointed out is that you're completely wrong if you think you're protecting the environment or "balancing" nature. Elimination of predator species is sculpting nature, not protecting it.

[HarcyPervin]

Feanor, I didn't read your posts before responding to MNHNTR's classic "yew sitee boys jest dont understand" post.

I think we're on the same page here. If you want to spend your time hunting predators, that's fine, just admit you do it because it is a lifestyle that you enjoy, and stop trying to convince yourself that you're saving Bambi by getting rid of the big bad bear/wolf/coyote/bobcat. We have cultivated a large population of deer/ducks/etc because there is a lot of money to be made and because we enjoy the sport.

[rcmodel]

Humans are the problem, not Bobcats.

25 years ago, a developer built 200 new homes on a rocky bluff 5 miles away from here in the country.

Now, the city is there, a mother bobcat tries to raise a littler of littens under somebody's garden gnome, and kills Fluffy the house cat when they let her out to kill the quail & song birds!
And guess who has to pay?

Mama Bobcat has to pay, with her life!
For just doing what she is supposed to do.

Go to work every night, feed & protect her kittens, and make sure there are still Bobcats in the future.

rc

[Feanor]

Feanor, I didn't read your posts before responding to MNHNTR's classic "yew sitee boys jest dont understand" post.

I think we're on the same page here. If you want to spend your time hunting predators, that's fine, just admit you do it because it is a lifestyle that you enjoy, and stop trying to convince yourself that you're saving Bambi by getting rid of the big bad bear/wolf/coyote/bobcat. We have cultivated a large population of deer/ducks/etc because there is a lot of money to be made and because we enjoy the sport.
You pretty much have it nailed as to predator hunting, which BTW I'm very good at, however I think we need to be very very careful. I'm open to a wolf season, but for christs sake, 24 hours a day, and "four months long!" We have a wildlife biologist at the UW who said it best, this isn't intended as management, its intended as revenge!

Anybody who sings the the "we're doing nature a favor" song, is either hopelessly deluded, or tossing the little wife a bone on their way out the gate.

[HGUNHNTR]

If it were truly doing nature a favor, we should target invasive species to be hunted to extinction. Leave the wolves, coyotes and bobcats and eliminate the Chinese ringneck pheasant. Surely groups like pheasants forever could get behind that, they are afterall invasive. There are a lot of organizations dedicated to the conservation of prey animals (turkeys, deer, elk, quail, ducks all the ones that put money in someones pocket), why not predators?

[Art Eatman]

I don't see a "one size fits all" in the predator-hunting deal. For some, it's a necessity, to protect their bank balance. Doesn't matter if the predator is after livestock or crops.

For me, not being in the ranching bidness, it's my judgement about what critters in what amount are on my land, since I like to eat quail. Since I'm not greedy and am willing to share, I try for control of varmint numbers rather than any sort of effort at eradication. Heck, I like to see the occasional bobcat or listen to the yodel dogs sing.

I don't know about "balance" around Tucson, but the parents of that coyote-killed little child on the edge of that city would likely figure that the only good coyote is a dead one.

IOW, different strokes for different folks.

[Feanor]

I don't see a "one size fits all" in the predator-hunting deal. For some, it's a necessity, to protect their bank balance. Doesn't matter if the predator is after livestock or crops.

For me, not being in the ranching bidness, it's my judgement about what critters in what amount are on my land, since I like to eat quail. Since I'm not greedy and am willing to share, I try for control of varmint numbers rather than any sort of effort at eradication. Heck, I like to see the occasional bobcat or listen to the yodel dogs sing.

I don't know about "balance" around Tucson, but the parents of that coyote-killed little child on the edge of that city would likely figure that the only good coyote is a dead one.

IOW, different strokes for different folks.
I think that this is an important distinction, what is needed with coyotes is not necessarily whats required with bobcats, which are far less numerous. Coyotes have exploded due to a number of factors, the absence of their natural enemy, the wolf, an eclectic, and irresponsible system of agricultural development, and their natural ability to adapt to man and his settlements being a few of them.

You want to hear of an exploding population problem? Black bear numbers in Wisconsin, have soared beyond anyone's wildest imaginings, maybe more than forty thousand of them! Easily the largest population in the lower forty eight. Our population of bears has become so large that they are expanding their range into highly improbable areas of the midwest, even showing up in Iowa, where black bear have been extirpated for well over one hundred years.

Black bear are responsible for more human death in just the last twenty-five years, then all coyotes and gray wolves combined, in documented US history!