A Case for guns in Churches


PDA






usmarine0352_2005
April 26, 2012, 12:56 AM
.

I accidentally posted this in the wrong forum earlier. To bad it was too late for 1 woman. But many more were saved.



This is definitely a good example for when someone brings up no guns in churches.



http://www.thonline.com/news/nationa...1ac6ec6f0.html



Quote:
.
Off-duty cop guns down out-of-control driver who pulled gun, killed woman

A pastor's mother is shot while coming to the aid of a man who crashed his car outside a Colorado church.

Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:00 am


AURORA, Colo. -- A man crashed his car outside a Colorado church and opened fire on people who had come to his aid, fatally wounding the mother of the church's pastor before an off-duty officer attending the service shot him dead.

The pastor of Destiny Center Church, Delono Straham, said the woman killed Sunday was his mother, Josephine Echols, a nurse from Flint, Mich., who most recently had been working with dialysis patients at a local hospital. She had gone outside to see if anyone needed medical attention.
.
.

If you enjoyed reading about "A Case for guns in Churches" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
allaroundhunter
April 26, 2012, 01:31 AM
In theory, it can be a case for anywhere that guns are not allowed. Law abiding citizens get killed by the non-law abiding criminals. I really don't know how many people have to die before out stupid governments figure this out, but the number keeps rising.

bigfatdave
April 26, 2012, 06:35 AM
what's special about as church?

arm yourself or be a victim unable to resist

cambeul41
April 26, 2012, 07:54 AM
I see the state's forbidding guns in churches to be a first amendment violation.

In Michigan, "Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons" is a pistol free area. I suppose that is one one step better. I will leave it to the religious to decide whether it is enough better.

TJx
April 26, 2012, 08:37 AM
My CCW instructor trained a couple of local church security teams as a public service.

usmarine0352_2005
April 26, 2012, 11:42 AM
.

How is it a 1st Amendment violation?
.

ForumSurfer
April 26, 2012, 11:47 AM
what's special about as church?

I agree with BFD on that. I arm myself anywhere I go (where it is legal). If I magically knew where I was safe, I'd move there and never leave.

Some churches here in NC can become illegal to carry, period. There are several that have become accredited full time schools, so the same policies apply as to regular schools.

4v50 Gary
April 26, 2012, 12:40 PM
I know a minister who packs. Most of his congregation does too and that church is the wrong one to attack. I wonder why it isn't called St. John (Moses Browning)?

BP Hunter
April 26, 2012, 12:59 PM
I always carry at church. While at church one day, my wife nudged on my side and realized I was carrying. She then whispered in my ear, "You don't need that thing here..". I just looked down at her and smiled. That said it all.

coalman
April 26, 2012, 01:20 PM
Criminals break laws. Most such laws aide in prosecution not protection or prevention.

Ryanxia
April 26, 2012, 02:12 PM
I always carry at Church, there's no magical bubble anywhere in the world that keeps you 100% safe. I hear of lots of Pastors that carry too.

allaroundhunter
April 26, 2012, 02:28 PM
what's special about as church?

arm yourself or be a victim unable to resist

I would love to be able to carry at church, but several states have laws against it even with a CHL.

Owen Sparks
April 26, 2012, 02:49 PM
A church is private property.

The decision to allow or forbid guns or anything else for that matter should be left up to the members who catually OWN the church, not the state.

allaroundhunter
April 26, 2012, 02:55 PM
A church is private property.

The decision to allow or forbid guns or anything else for that matter should be left up to the members who catually OWN the church, not the state.

I completely agree, but there are many things that should be that aren't :banghead:

Owen Sparks
April 26, 2012, 03:17 PM
Recognition of property rights would solve most of society’s problems.

allaroundhunter
April 26, 2012, 03:20 PM
And recognition of individual rights (like the 2A), would solve many of the problems that we discuss here on THR.....Common sense doesn't get us too far these days does it? :confused:

Skribs
April 26, 2012, 03:58 PM
The violation of the first ammendment comment above I believe is related to the fact that the government shouldn't be regulating what goes on in a church.

Allaround, you are absolutely right. "Gun Free Zones" do nothing (unless you have quality security which screens everyone, such as with my local courthouse) to prevent Joe Schmoe from carrying inside, concealed or not. The only difference is that someone like me, a law-abiding citizen, will disarm before going there. The criminal won't.

Coalman is right, gun free zone laws simply give another law to use in prosecution, which I think is unneccessary if someone is on trial for murder. They do nothing to prevent crime commited with guns in those areas.

waterhouse
April 27, 2012, 01:18 PM
I would love to be able to carry at church, but several states have laws against it even with a CHL; Texas included.

You may carry at your church in Texas unless a proper 30.06 sign is posted.

From the Texas penal code:

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

. . .

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

. . .

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(5) in an amusement park; or

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

If you get down to letter (i), you'll see that:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Ergo, your church is the same as most other buildings in the state . . . no correctly posted sign, no problem.

PastorAaron
April 27, 2012, 01:22 PM
I always carry at Church, there's no magical bubble anywhere in the world that keeps you 100% safe. I hear of lots of Pastors that carry too.
I'm one of em! Also teach ccw and awareness courses at the church building. We teach our people (women especiall)y to pray for peace, but carry protection.

cambeul41
April 27, 2012, 05:27 PM
I see the state's forbidding guns in churches to be a first amendment violation.

How is it a 1st Amendment violation?

The violation of the first ammendment comment above I believe is related to the fact that the government shouldn't be regulating what goes on in a church.

Exactly!

Nomad
April 27, 2012, 06:50 PM
It is legal to carry in Arizona in a church. I am a church officer and I carry every Sunday. I suspect I'm not the only one.

Starship1st
April 27, 2012, 08:11 PM
Amen! Brother and pass the ammo. That's why I love liveing in Arizona.:cool:

Joshua M.
April 27, 2012, 10:19 PM
Once again it is brought up...if it is Concealed, then why worry about if it is "illegal"...God forbid should you ever need to use it, then what happens happens. I for one know of many that carry, and feel real well about all in our congregation that if anything were to happen, things would be taken care of with minimal innocent victims.

Driftertank
April 27, 2012, 11:54 PM
what's special about as church?

I can think of one thing: organised religion is one of the greatest means of separation of individual points of view, and one of the biggest sources of animosity between different peoples, in the world. So, frankly, as alarmist as it may sound, as far as places where you could experience violence based solely on association, i'd place houses of worship high up on the list, particularly if you're a member of a congregation which is contrary to the majority socio-religious tendencies in your region; see historical outbursts of violence towards baptist churches with mostly black patronage in the american south, or jewish synagogues and schools internationally.

An awful lot of extremists are "religious extremists"...

preachnhunt
April 28, 2012, 12:05 AM
I'm with Pastor Aaron. And I'm another one of them.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 28, 2012, 12:22 AM
Once again it is brought up...if it is Concealed, then why worry about if it is "illegal"...God forbid should you ever need to use it, then what happens happens. I for one know of many that carry, and feel real well about all in our congregation that if anything were to happen, things would be taken care of with minimal innocent victims.

I understand what you are saying but here at The High Road, only legal advice is allowed.

foghornl
April 29, 2012, 07:29 PM
I remember a story from several years back (around 2007, IIRC)..

The St. Stevens AME Church in Toledo, OH was taken over by 2 or 3 armed thugs that took money, jewelry, etc from Sunday Worshippers. Children of members were also threatened by those thugs.

asia331
May 1, 2012, 01:15 AM
It is legal to carry in Arizona in a church. I am a church officer and I carry every Sunday. I suspect I'm not the only one.

Allow me to confirm your suspicion Brother Nomad.

goon
May 1, 2012, 01:13 PM
No offense to the OP, but posting this here is likely to just receive a bunch of "at a boy" comments and pats on the back.
Of course we think you should be able to carry a gun in church or anywhere else for legitimate self-defense.

Saddlebag Preacher
May 1, 2012, 03:24 PM
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

My sword is called Glock.

RevDerb
May 1, 2012, 06:00 PM
I'm with Pastor Aaron. And I'm another one of them.
I do, however, try to know who else is carrying and where they are sitting so that we don't cause innocent people to get caught in a crossfire.

Johannes_Paulsen
May 1, 2012, 06:44 PM
A church is private property.

The decision to allow or forbid guns or anything else for that matter should be left up to the members who catually OWN the church, not the state.

Quite so.

If, however, your chosen philosophy or religion discourages you from taking reasonable and prudent steps to protect yourself and your loved ones from men who would do evil, I respectfully submit that it is your chosen religion or philosophy that needs to be questioned, not the principle of self-defense.

Rembrandt
May 1, 2012, 07:00 PM
Recently high number of worshiping Christians have been attacked and killed in churches worldwide by terrorists....would be prudent to be prepared than to be another statistic.

goon
May 2, 2012, 01:57 AM
In speaking with a pastor I know, he mentioned that this conversation recently came up between him and some of the senior members of his church.
Their conclusion was that from a legal standpoint, it is better that he as a pastor does not carry (he said he would be uncomfortable with that anyhow). At the same time, he noted that he thinks several of his members carry concealed, including one retired LEO. He's happier not knowing for sure but comforted by the fact that someone could stop an attacker.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

My sword is called Glock.

Isn't that followed by a response that there are already a couple swords in the crowd, to which Christ says something to the effect of "that'll do."?
I feel that people often misunderstand or misrepresent Luke 22:36. What does provide evidence that it was acceptable for his followers to be armed was that there were already weapons in the crowd and he apparently didn't do anything to discourage that.

hammerklavier
May 2, 2012, 02:59 PM
That's right, and if you look at the reason he wanted the swords, it was so he would be 'numbered with the transgressors'.

36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Redlg155
May 2, 2012, 06:02 PM
Congregation packing= Better quality of sermons and decreased length of time. Much less time spent chasing "rabbits".

HankR
May 2, 2012, 07:06 PM
I do, however, try to know who else is carrying and where they are sitting so that we don't cause innocent people to get caught in a crossfire.

My son enjoys playing spot the CCW in church. Every so often he'll nudge me and point at somebody w/ a knowing grin. In my youth I just counted the ceiling tiles when the sermon got too long. (And as to whether or not I'm "one of them", concealed means concealed).

Doug S
May 3, 2012, 08:08 PM
Church is a good a place as any to carry...maybe even better than some. As mentioned above, it seems Christians are becoming more of a target.

If you enjoyed reading about "A Case for guns in Churches" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!