[Sergei Mosin]

I notice a lot of bear topics lately. Not complaining - I enjoy hearing hunting stories, especially when they involve critters I'm not likely to ever encounter - but why the fascination? Is it just because they're the most dangerous (non-human) animal in North America? I know we're not all living in bear country.

Around these parts if I wanted to see a bear I'd have to go to the zoo. I did see a turkey this evening though.

[Shoobee]

Black bears exist in almost all 50 states. Together with the coyote they are the most successful cridder in the wildlands. You are bound to run into one eventually.

[dubya450]

Yeah I'd say probably just for the simple fact that they could tear your head off with one swipe! They are just fascinating creatures in my opinion, and obviously many other people's. It is indeed fun to read the thread's about grizzly encounters/defense and hunting stories.

[dubya450]

Yeah I'd say probably just for the simple fact that they could tear your head off with one swipe! They are just fascinating creatures in my opinion, and obviously many other people's. It is indeed fun to read the thread's about grizzly encounters/defense and hunting stories.

[mavracer]

[Secret]it's an excuse for a whole genre of handguns[Secret/]
Heck I live in Kansas no bears but I have a BFR in 475 just in case.

[jmr40]

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/04/woman_visits_site_of_fatal_bea.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-04-16/us/bear.attack_1_mauled-erlanger-hospital-stable-condition?_s=PM:US

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/dec/04/story-of-bear-attack-to-air/

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/aug/12/black-bear-attacks-boy-in-smokies-father-also/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBnGe9HDGBI

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=20000524&id=dMwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=th4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6771,4733706

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3306263

http://www.bakercountypress.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1504:hunter-survives-attack-by-shot-bear&catid=59:news&Itemid=57

Those who don't spend much time in areas where bears live often make remarks like "you'd be extremely lucky to even see a bear in the wild". I hunt, camp, hike a lot in the N Georgia, East Tennessee and Western NC mountains and see bear on many of my trips. Seen dozens over the years and have killed 1, been present when several others were taken.

I'm not paranoid, have never felt threatened by one even though I've been within 10 yards of a few and within 30 yards of a mother and cubs before. But I am prepared just in case.

The links above are of bear attacks in the areas I frequently hike or camp in. These are the ones that made the news. There are dozens of other incidents that I'm aware of where no one was injured that were either never reported, or were not in the news.

[Sav .250]

Just another topic for forum conversation.

[Clipper]

Since bears are so widespread, they become a convienient excuse for the wife when you buy that super-ultra-mongo-magnum whatever to 'protect me from any bears when I'm out (insert anything one does outdoors here)'.

[hardluk1]

I live in black bear country and never give them a second thought till I see another bear tread around these forums. You stand a way higher chance of haveing confrontation with a person on the streets than you do with a black bear in the wild. The average 2 legged slug stomp'n around in the woods will scare off the wild life most times before you would ever see what it was. Or if there raiding your bird feeders, jump up and down holler'n at them or fire a 9mm around there feet and they will be gone very quickly and more than likely for good. Non hunters or weekend warriors do seem to be oh so worried about them.

[SlamFire1]

Poor Bears are being poached for their gall bladders. They have a lot more to fear from people and likely will be driven to extinction as organized criminals hunt them out.

Maybe we should fear the organized criminals and the meth labs more than the bears.

Unfortunately for bears, they are the only species with a gall bladder that produces fairly large quantities of bile, or bile salts, an ingredient that has been used in traditional Asian medicines for as long as 3,000 years……. Prices for bear gall bladders are astronomically high in some countries — in Japan, gall bladders can sell for $1500 to $4000 each….. This has led to an increase in poaching across North America and Russia.
http://www.americanbear.org/anatomy.htm


A few years ago a dramatic decline in previously healthy Black Bear populations occurred in California. The Department of Fish and Game investigated and found that the decline was the result of illegal hunting of bear for their gall bladders.http://www.canadianrockies.net/banff/poaching.html

[jon86]

Since bears are so widespread, they become a convienient excuse for the wife when you buy that super-ultra-mongo-magnum whatever to 'protect me from any bears when I'm out (insert anything one does outdoors here)'.

I tried this. I apparently wasn't convincing enough. :(

[SleazyRider]

I do my share of hiking in the "wilds" of northwestern New Jersey and have encountered dozens and dozens of black bears and their youngun's. It is one of Justice's greatest contradictions that I am prohibited from defending myself with a firearm in the (unlikely) event of a bear attack in New Jersey, yet elsewhere I'm good to go.

[DesertFox]

I see bears very frequently as I hunt them in both spring and fall annually. Black bears generally are about as dangerous as a poodle, unless a sow with cubs is startled. Griz are far different, especially if your bump in to one all camoed out while elk hunting with a bow, as a good friend of mine can testify to. (he suffered multiple broken bones and was basically scalped)

Although I hate to admit it, bear spray is a far better defense than any firearm (less $$$ too, although not nearly as manly or fun). So I carry both as backup; spray and 44 Mag w/ 300gr or better. Better yet - 12 gauge and spray.

[Certaindeaf]

Zombies are fake and no one wants to be bear poop.

[Art Eatman]

I guess that some of it comes from a bit of fascination with the idea that homo sap is not always at the top of the food chain.

[spclpatrolgroup]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/little-known-fact-some-bear-attacks-begin-with-a-polite-knock-on-your-door.jpg

[hardluk1]

Hey let me in, I'm home!!

[dubya450]

+1 clipper, isn't that true!

[DAP90]

[Secret]it's an excuse for a whole genre of handguns[Secret/]

Truth

Bear threads usually don’t have much to do with bears at all. People just want another gun and hey, why not, it’s their money, though they may regret carrying it after a few miles of mountainous terrain.

Sure, a few people here have legitimate worries about bears but most of us only have black bears around if even that. Black bears are hardly worth worrying about at all. You shouldn’t try to give them a pet or hand feed them but honestly, they are way at the bottom of potential wilderness threats.

[Cosmoline]

I think on a deep level humans like to think there are four legged dangers out there. Theorizing about how to deal with the beasts goes back at least as far as cave art, and those paintings of game were possibly the first bear threads ;-) "What spear for aurochs?"

But also running across them or even their sign is memorable. I remember finding a section of forest floor that looked like a backhoe had been at it. It was a brown bear that had apparently been after ground squirrel. When they darted in the ground, the bear just removed the ground. Going through old and thick tree roots like they were sisal twine. They're amazing. The one thing I can say for sure is that if they ever really wanted to hunt men, we'd be in deep trouble with or without firearms.

[K1500]

#1 Every single year I go camping, I have seen bears either on the trail or in camp. This has occured in 5 or 6 different states. Yes, it is a 100% clean camp, and most encounters have been of the distant spotting variety. I have had no trouble with any of them.

#2 It's a heck of alot better than the current Zombie fascination, don't you think?

[THowie]

#1 Every single year I go camping, I have seen bears either on the trail or in camp. This has occured in 5 or 6 different states. Yes, it is a 100% clean camp, and most encounters have been of the distant spotting variety. I have had no trouble with any of them.

Where are you camping? Maybe I'm just camping in the wrong areas, cuz I haven't seen one in a couple of years (Course, I don't go camping as often anymore)

[rajb123]

the most dangerous animal in north America is not the bear. ...rather, it is the wolf.

[MCgunner]

City folks think they need to worry about bears. They don't have a lot of familiarity with 'em, skirt, I guess. They think it takes some sort of anti armor gun, German 88 or hellfire missile or something, seems like. When you mention black bear, ain't 3 posts until someone brings up Kodiak bear, even if the OP is in Florida. :rolleyes: Those threads are getting kinda monotonous.

#2 It's a heck of alot better than the current Zombie fascination, don't you think?

Actually, at least I get a chuckle out of THOSE threads. :D

[hardluk1]

A old wolf on its own is not any more to worry about than a feral dog or any larger wild animal thats sick and old. And a wild wolf pack does not have much on a pack of feral dogs. A pack mentality is what makes wolfs, coytes and feral dogs scary.

[WYcoyote]

With 4 fatalities recently around and in Yellowstone Park, and many confrontations at wilderness camps, I'd say the fascination is trying to extend your time breathing.

[12gaugeTim]

There are a LOT of people on this forum who live in a variety of places. My uncle isn't on here, but he, without a doubt, would participate in a bear defense forum if he did have an account. It was only two weeks ago he sent me a picture of a mother bear with a cub that was taken from the window on his house. Had he not seen the two and gone out to his car, bear defense would probably have taken a very realistic stance in his life, very quickly.
My girlfriend was in Alaska seeing her dad. They went on a hike and took pictures of two bears (brown, black, can't remember) just across a river from them.
Bears=/=zombies. They are a legitimate potential danger to many people. I'm sure there are plenty of members on THR that can vouch for me on that one.

[Alaska444]

Today, 07:11 AM #10
SlamFire1
Member


Join Date: December 29, 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 5,045
Poor Bears are being poached for their gall bladders. They have a lot more to fear from people and likely will be driven to extinction as organized criminals hunt them out.

Maybe we should fear the organized criminals and the meth labs more than the bears.

Quote:
Unfortunately for bears, they are the only species with a gall bladder that produces fairly large quantities of bile, or bile salts, an ingredient that has been used in traditional Asian medicines for as long as 3,000 years……. Prices for bear gall bladders are astronomically high in some countries — in Japan, gall bladders can sell for $1500 to $4000 each….. This has led to an increase in poaching across North America and Russia
.
http://www.americanbear.org/anatomy.htm


Quote:
A few years ago a dramatic decline in previously healthy Black Bear populations occurred in California. The Department of Fish and Game investigated and found that the decline was the result of illegal hunting of bear for their gall bladders.
http://www.canadianrockies.net/banff/poaching.html
__________________
Accuracy is a skill acquired through constant practice.


Black bear populations are dramatically increasing across every part of North America. Poaching is not a large issue in America. Obviously you have the rare case, but lots of information out there on increased bear populations.

[Loosedhorse]

The brown bear is the biggest, meanest predator on this continent. I guess if we lived in Africa, there'd be a lot more "lion defense" threads, with similar arguments regarding handguns, shotguns, rifles--and the minimal probability of needing any of that.

I also think there is some talismanic thinking going on. A bear attack represents a danger that we may not be able to control, no matter our armament. Danger that you can't control is a source of real anxiety. So, we try to get some emotional comfort from the idea of, "Well, if I've got a .44 Mag on my hip, I'm protected...right?" :cool::uhoh:

And then we decide how big a sacrifice we need to make to the god of bear protection: is carrying a .44 enough to win favor? Maybe a heavy .500 would impress the god more? Or a .458 Lott!

Personally, I think a lot of different guns can make sense. If you have a shotgun, shoot it well, and load it with slugs, do I think you need anything else? Nope. Even though I might choose something else.

If you prefer a handgun because of ease of carry (or any other reason), well, it is easy to slip into a discussion about "how little can I get away with" rather than "what's the biggest caliber I can shoot well." And, again, I can certainly understand the idea of, "Hey, I've already got this .44 Mag--are you sure I need to buy a .475 Linebaugh?"

No, I am not sure.

[Feanor]

I notice a lot of bear topics lately. Not complaining - I enjoy hearing hunting stories, especially when they involve critters I'm not likely to ever encounter - but why the fascination? Is it just because they're the most dangerous (non-human) animal in North America? I know we're not all living in bear country.

Around these parts if I wanted to see a bear I'd have to go to the zoo. I did see a turkey this evening though.
Well in Alaska we often refer to such as "cheechakos." Cheechakos are newcomers to the great land, they know nothing about anything. Cheechakos always buy big caliber handguns when they get here, ostensibly to shoot the bear when it comes for them in the night.

Same mentality at work here, exactly! :)

[K1500]

Since folks like bear stories, I will share a few. I DO NOT consider myself to be a bear expert by any stretch of the imagination. I have been fortunate to be able to recreate where bears live.

I have encountered bears on the trail or in camp in Yellowstone NP Wyoming, Teton NP Wyoming, the Sierras in California, Glacier NP Montana, Arkansas, Alaska, Tennessee, and perhaps Colorado (foggy memory on that one). I have not had any serious trouble, and I view humans as a much more dangerous threat.

I have encountered a very large mother black bear with cubs on the trail as I rounded a corner at EXTREME CLOSE range. I had a sneaky black bear climbing a tree to try to get at a properly hung bear bag near camp at close range (the bear failed) while backpacking. A medium sized black bear strolled through camp and swam across a river my kids were swimming in (I called the kids out of the river fast).

I have had a costal brown bear climb on the porch of small shack/cabin I was staying in and peer into the window. A medium sized black bear cruised through camp while I was cooking breakfast while the wife and kid were waking up in the tent. I have been on a hike with a bear biologist to successfully trap and tag a black bear. I have watched a black bear tear apart a rotten log in search of grubs or ants. I have seen a bears 'appear' out of seemingly thin air from meadows, fields, forests, and on trails.

I was in Yellowstone when the two separate fatal attacks occurred just outside the park. I was in the park when two hikers were attacked and killed in separate incidents. I have seen a grizzly defending wolf killed elk carcass from the wolves that killed it. I watched four grizzly's jockey for position on a distant bison carcass. I have walked through thick alder thickets while sidestepping piles of costal brown bear dung that was not there the previous evening. I have seen fresh costal brown bear beds that were the size of a compact car.

Many (but not all) of these bears were 'park bears' that were somewhat habituated to humans. They are probably MORE dangerous than the truly wild bears, who typically like to scoot fast when they get wind of a human. I do not know how many bears cleared out when they got wind of me that I did not see.

I can say with certainty that I DID NOT regret being armed with a handgun (however puny it may be) during most of these encounters. I never felt the need to do anything more aggressive than place my hand on my firearm. Studies show bear spray is the most effective deterrent, and I have no reason to doubt this.

I suppose my point is that bears are common in some parts of the country. It is not entirely foolish to consider an effective defense strategy. That strategy should START with awareness and avoidance, which I have rigorously practiced. About the only prevention strategy I have not consistently embraced is to sing loudly while on the trail, although I typically make no special effort to remain quiet. I continue to enjoy my time in bear country, and I STILL worry about humans, snakes, traffic, etc. as much as I do about bears. I also chose to carry a firearm as part of my defense strategy.

[harrygunner]

I hike in areas where mountain lions, black and grizzly bears and moose roam.

In the past, I read "bear threads" and hunting forums, not so much because I was concerned about bears, but that I wanted something that could be effective against the toughest thing that might want to kill me. I figured if I can stop a bear, then everything from bears to bad guys would be covered.

[hardluk1]

well harry carry your bear spray and you will be one of the better protected.

[Double Naught Spy]

Fascination with bear defense is probably due to a lot of reasons, part of which, no doubt, come from extensive reporting and also sensationalization of such events by the media. The odds of a given individual being attacked are quite low, but the stakes are high. If attacked by a bear that makes contact with you, in almost all cases that I have seen, a trip to the emergency room is necessary and more often than not there is an associated stay in the hopital as a result.

Given that forums like THR are gun forums and have sections regarding hunting and self defense, weapon selection for bear defense is going to be an issue that comes up with regular frequency. After all, of the few types of risk experienced by hikers and campers in the woods and by the general public in areas where there are bears, bears are one of the few risks that can be addressed with firepower.

On average, there are something like only 30 bear attacks in the US per year that result in any sort of injuries and on average, the number of people killed by bears is usually less than one.

Many bear "attacks" aren't so much as attacks as they are bears acting in self defense to a perceived threat. So you have the occasional hunter that is attacked by a wounded bear he is tracking or biologist attacked by the unseen mother bear or sibling cub while attempted to gather data on a tranquilized bear. Occasionally, game officials of "attacked" by animals they are attempting to cage, transport, or release. Then there are the "attacks" by pet, captive, and trained bears that really have nothing to do with what happens in the wild, but get included into bear attack statistics.

The most common attacks on humans are the surprise encounter attacks. This occurs when the bear and a human end up at the same location at the same time without realizing the other was in the area. Especially when there is a sow and cubs involved, such encounters can be very dangerous. If the bear does attack, the attack is usually very brief, but even a brief attack often results in hospitalization. Generally speaking, these attacks are also defensive behavior. Here is a great example... http://www.adn.com/2010/07/08/1359490/mountain-biker-recounts-tale-of.html

If you think about all the things that can injure and kill you in the woods, bears are very low on the list in terms of frequency. More people are injured or killed by things like other hunters, lightning, bees/wasps, giardia, forest fires, and falling than by bears. These threats, however, don't have the same sorts of dread fear associated with them and are not threats that can be reasonably addressed with firepower. Folks fascinated by these other sorts of threats typically address them with their own sorts of parallel discussions of how to behave/what to do, tools used, etc. You will find folks ever bit as excited about their new high tech portable water filtration gizmos as we are about guns.

[History.Doc]

All good points, but I run into them all the time and they scare the crap out of me every time.

[hardluk1]

Bouble Naught Spy Very good. Please save the message for use on all black bear treads.

[T.R.]

I wonder why all the paranoia about bears. Unless you suprise a mamma with her cubs, black bears are typically not threatening to humans. Especially in Pennsylvania where bear hunters outnumber bruins 12 to 1.

TR

[Alaska444]

Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males. They approach and stalk silently and come in deliberately according to several reports. Even bear spray is only a temporary deterrent to them and after exhausting your bear spray, you had better have some lethal means to protect yourself. That is just one more reason why bear spray may not be your best defense against bears, especially predatory black bears.

[Alaska444]

In an article published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, University of Calgary professor emeritus Dr. Stephen Herrero, University of Calgary graduate Andrew Higgins, and colleagues from the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife and Brigham Young University analyzed the circumstances of all recorded deaths inflicted by non-captive black bears in North America between 1900 and 2009. The study found that 63 people were killed in 59 incidents in Canada, Alaska and the lower 48 states. The researchers determined that the majority (88%) of fatal attacks involved a bear exhibiting predatory behaviour, and 92% of the predatory bears were males. The authors suggest male black bears have evolved some different behaviours than females.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110511074807.htm

In a prior study, Herrero noted that a significant number of black bears initially driven off by pepper spray during an act of aggression stayed in the area and returned. Once again, black bears need a bit of lead persuasion in those instances. That is a specific case where pepper spray is NOT the best defense.

[MCgunner]

well harry carry your bear spray and you will be one of the better protected.

Hmm, harry carry as in Japanese suicide? :D I just found this a might humorous, sorry. :D

It is illegal to kill a bear in the state of Texas. I don't wish to have to deal with THAT. I have been out several thousands in legal fees after shooting an attacking chow. I wish I'd had my pepper spray THAT day, can tell ya that! The ONLY place I hike, though, in Texas that has bear is in Big Bend in the Chisos. I think the population up there is estimated at 30 or 40 and seeing one is a real treat. I've stumbled on to 'em in New Mexico, but I've yet to see one in Texas. Art posted a pic of one pawing on the glass at the restaurant in the basin at the Bend a while back, though. I was hoping to see one up there last spring when we were there. They didn't even move in up there until the late 70s, early 80s. First time I hiked the mountains up there in 74, there were no bear there. They've migrated in on their own from northern Mexico.

[james layman]

A story was told to me about 60 yrs ago. My uncle was hunting the Masasutten Mountain, not far from New Market Va. He encountered a bear with only bird shot. He rammed the barrel down his throat. I dont know the validity of the story. I did see his double barrel with long deep scratches. Not a recommendated solution. Big lead more effective.

[ApacheCoTodd]

Why? Because the Cold War ended, roving bands of domestic terrorists never materialized, Narco terrorists prey primarily on their own kind and most of us are too embarrassed to be seen taking zombies seriously...

Some folk have sincere concerns but most just need that "wolf at the door".

[CountryUgly]

My wife reads this forum too so shhhhh about the black bears being harmless.:what: We had a black bear hit by a car:( about a half hour from us and it made the news beacuse it was the first black bear seen in this area in several decades:eek:. So I've almost convinced her I need a BFR to take out in the sticks with me to protect me from these gnarly bears:D. If she see's you guys talking about scaring them off with a lowly old 9mm I'll be out of luck:banghead: so ix nay on tha earbay please:scrutiny:

Hope I used enough smilies to get the point across :cool:

[MCgunner]

Hell, if you want the BFR, just tell her it's a walking stick. :D

I'd hold out for THIS, though. :D

http://www.vincelewis.net/50magnum/600revolver.jpg

[caribou]

People are the most dangerous animals in North Amrica.

Bears are dangerouse to careless folks, you must practise good "Keep Bears outta camp" camping, like a piss fence, clean up foods and dont sleep next to you meats, keep a dog loose, be loud, play a raido, sing a song when walking in brush, ect, ect, and let the Bears get outta yer way.
3 Kinds of Bears here, Black, White, Brown, and I , or my fellow villagers have no Bear problems at all. I only know of flyup campers haveing problems, but I carry a rifle nonethe less.

Old Eskimos storys deal with sex, death, food, travle...ect. ect, indeed, every aspect of life allright , but there are NO storys of Wolves killing people, other than Rabid, which happens in Lynx, Dogs Fox and other animals as well here.

Ferral Dog Packs, however, are what the oldtimers consitterd an "Ultiate Disaster" as they knew the trails to camps and ate defencless folks they met by ripping them apart, alive.....

Anyone who shoots a loose dog still get 40$ per dog we shoot inthe village, no questions aked, they are not tollerated.

[Double Naught Spy]

Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males.

No, the majority of recent black bear attacks is not by predatory males. You misread the article. The majority of LETHAL black bear attacks is be predatory males.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110511074807.htm

However, most "attacks" in general such as those that occur during surprise encounters or tourists getting too close to bears are not fatal. They are brief, usually resulting in injuries, but not fatal.

[Alaska444]

Today, 09:01 AM #46
Double Naught Spy
Member


Join Date: December 24, 2002
Location: Forestburg, Texas
Posts: 7,577
Quote:
Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males.
No, the majority of recent black bear attacks is not by predatory males. You misread the article. The majority of LETHAL black bear attacks is be predatory males.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0511074807.htm

However, most "attacks" in general such as those that occur during surprise encounters or tourists getting too close to bears are not fatal. They are brief, usually resulting in injuries, but not fatal.
__________________
Texas BorderWatch www.blueservo.net

In particular, the common belief that surprising a mother bear with cubs is the most dangerous kind of black bear encounter is inaccurate. Instead, lone male black bears hunting people as a potential source of food are a greater cause of deadly maulings and related predatory attempts. The study also found that fatal attacks do not typically involve bears that are familiar with humans, although some fatal attacks did.

Sorry, read the article again my friend. It stated deadly AND related predatory attempts.

[CountryUgly]

Hell, if you want the BFR, just tell her it's a walking stick. :D

I'd hold out for THIS, though. :D

http://www.vincelewis.net/50magnum/600revolver.jpg
Good idea sir. BTW what was in the pic? It was just a red X by the time I seen this.

[MCgunner]

It still shows up for me. Hmm...

It's a Pfeifer-Zeliska revolver in .600 Nitro Express, and I couldn't spell that if I weren't reading it right off the picture in your post. :D You can google it, but might can't afford it. LOL I couldn't afford the ammo, myself. Even handloading it has to be expensive. Add to that the impracticality of the beast, weighs about as much as a WW2 BAR. :rolleyes:

[MCgunner]

http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/PfeiferZeliska.jpg

[Alaska444]

I think I would rather wrestle the bear. LOL

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I think I would rather wrestle the bear. LOL

I second that opinion. Shooting my 4" .500 S&W plays enough havoc on my wrist bones. That monstrosity would need to come with a "Terminator" cyborg to shoot it!

[Double Naught Spy]

Sorry, read the article again my friend. It stated deadly AND related predatory attempts.

Read the article. You are still taking it out of context and stating that it indicates things that it does not indicate. You are grossly oversensationalizing a form of attack that is not very common, the predatory attack. The article does not state that most attacks are by predatory males. Your quote nicely makes this point...

In particular, the common belief that surprising a mother bear with cubs is the most dangerous kind of black bear encounter is inaccurate. Instead, lone male black bears hunting people as a potential source of food are a greater cause of deadly maulings and related predatory attempts. The study also found that fatal attacks do not typically involve bears that are familiar with humans, although some fatal attacks did.

Nowhere in the article does it identify predatory attacks as being the most common form of attack. Nowhere in the article does it state that most attacks are by predatory males.

The article is identifying the extremely rare predatory attacks as being mostly by males. Basically, it is saying that females are less apt to attack a human for the purposes of consumption than is a male. The article is only addressing the issue of predatory attacks and is not addressing non-predatory attacks which are much more common. It is that simple.

Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males.
This statement of yours also sensationalizes the notion of immediacy when you call describe the attacks as occurring recently. The article does not address the issue of recency in any significant manner other than noting that the study spans the a range of time from 1900 to 2009 and that the attacks have increased with human population growth.

HOWEVER, and this is a huge however, you seem to be completely overlooking the opening paragraph which explicitly states....
Fatal encounters with black bears have been exceedingly rare during the last century, but appear to be mainly the result of predatory male bears targeting humans in their wilderness home ranges, according to a new study led by the world's leading expert on bear attacks.

Here is a nice video of Herrerro discussing this very work that came out in 2011. Gosh, the number of deaths is up...to about 2 a year since 1960. So your recent attacks are in the last 50 years. Also pay attention to the fact that he says his study ONLY involved attacks involving deaths of people. Those are the only data stated.

In the video, note that Herrerro does not indicate that the most attacks of black bears are predatory or by males. He is only stating that predatory attacks are mostly by males. In fact, he refers to the species as largely benign and considered to be a lovely and safe species to be around at least in comparison to many other species that kill humans much more commonly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7yoIheOrTc

There is no reason to overstate what is actually being said.

[Trad Archer]

Black bears are generally pussy cats. I see them often here in Minnesota and they always seem to be running away from me. I've killed several with a long bow and never had one go more than 50 yards, had one drop and roll and die right at the bait.. No doubt, they die easier than whitetails.

I'm way more jumpy about snakes than I am black bears. LOL.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

In fact, he refers to the species as largely benign and considered to be a lovely and safe species to be around at least in comparison to many other species that kill humans much more commonly.

That statement right there is probably the best and truest statement I have read on all these "bear defense" threads. Brown bear are a completely different realm of study but Black Bear are fairly docile and skiddish when it comes to human contact. Of course there are instances when attacks can be easier to provoke, such as breeding season with a charged up male or a sow with young cubs in tow but, over all, they are a very easy species to be around in the woods and are FAR more likely to be far away from you before you ever know they are in the area. Like ANY wild animal, there will be encounters but the absolute best defense around Black Bear is to use a little common sense when in their territory.

[MCgunner]

I'm way more jumpy about snakes than I am black bears. LOL.

Well, I have snake boots. I don't think they make bear boots. :D

[Alaska444]

DNS, Whatever man, don't you have anything better to do than nitpicking? Wow.

In any case, predatory black males are an issue. Live with it and recognize it ain't just a peeved momma bear you have to worry about. Your issues, well, glad you think that, but I really don't feel like disputing a relatively simple comment. Wow.

[Double Naught Spy]

A444, I know you are trying to be helpful, but it is not helpful when you misrerpresent information. You stated and restated incorrectly information about bear behavior. Given that you were trying to be helpful, I would think that you would welcome the correction with information that is appropriately accurate.

So you call it nitpicking when the information you present is flat out wrong and somebody notices? I would think that you, of all people, would have the greatest interest in putting for accurate information about bears, bear behavior, and bear attacks instead mischaracterizing black bear behavior in a manner that villifies them. It is interesting that you cited Hererro's work and Hererro has the complete opposite impression of black bears than you appear to have.

Here is another study that might be of interest. This one from Yellowstone documented 35 injuries and 3 deaths in 25 years. It specifically notes that 97% of the injured hikers were injured in surprise encounters of females with young.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3873148?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56133621123

[Alaska444]

Fair enough DNS,

If that is what you wish.

I DID NOT misrepresent anything. The latest studies show that predatory black bear males is by far the largest percentage of offending bears in looking retrospectively back at attacks. That is a recent finding. That IS what the Herrerro study showed. Very simple and correct summation of the article.

You originally took issue with my summation which actually was not a summation. It was my recollection and I later submitted a post about that article. Please don't quote me out of context my friend. Predatory black male attacks is what the research has consistently shown "recently."

Once again, let's look back at my statements:

1) April 27, 2012 04:14 PM
Alaska444 Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males. They approach and stalk silently and come in deliberately according to several reports. Even bear spray is only a temporary deterrent to them and after exhausting your bear spray, you had better have some lethal means to protect yourself. That is just one more reason why bear spray may not be your best defense against bears, especially predatory black bears.

You have misinterpreted my statement above as meaning every attack in the last 2-3 years or whatever "recently" means to you, when instead, I was simply noting from memory that predatory black bear attacks are the majority found in studies "recently." I DID NOT quote any study in my initial statement from memory. My second statement dealt with finding that specific study 12 minutes later:

2) April 27, 2012 04:26 PM
Alaska444

In an article published in the Journal of Wildlife Management, University of Calgary professor emeritus Dr. Stephen Herrero, University of Calgary graduate Andrew Higgins, and colleagues from the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife and Brigham Young University analyzed the circumstances of all recorded deaths inflicted by non-captive black bears in North America between 1900 and 2009. The study found that 63 people were killed in 59 incidents in Canada, Alaska and the lower 48 states. The researchers determined that the majority (88%) of fatal attacks involved a bear exhibiting predatory behaviour, and 92% of the predatory bears were males. The authors suggest male black bears have evolved some different behaviours than females.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0511074807.htm

In a prior study, Herrero noted that a significant number of black bears initially driven off by pepper spray during an act of aggression stayed in the area and returned. Once again, black bears need a bit of lead persuasion in those instances. That is a specific case where pepper spray is NOT the best defense.


Nowhere did I specifically make any reference to fatal or nonfatal attacks. You are indeed misquoting, misrepresenting my statements and are taking them out of context. Please stop, life is too short to have to respond to your incessant and at times contradictory allegations.

Lastly, you misquoted the article you listed. It was not 97% of the attacks from female bears with young, it was 68% involving females with young of the 97% "surprise attacks." In addition, this study does not in the one page preview state which species of bear we are talking about.

I am talking about predatory BLACK BEARS. I am under the impression that the majority of attacks in Yellowstone are grizzly. Completely different population than I am talking about.

Ninety-seven percent of the hikers injured by bears reported surprise encounters as the cause of the attack, and 68% of these incidents involved female bears with young. Most hikers that were injured (61%) reacted to encounters with bears by running or attempting to climb trees. Most (80%) hikers that resisted during bear attacks were severely injured. Backcountry injuries occurred both in forested habitat (68%) and nonforested areas (32%). Visitor and employee education on precautions to take when hiking in bear habitat may be the most useful tool in further decreasing bear-inflicted human injuries within Yellowstone National Park.

So, yes, you are nitpicking and you are not yourself very careful with your facts.

I will not respond to any more of your absurd allegations on my simple statements above. Like I said, life is too short to waste my time arguing about nonsensical issues that I am sorry set you off so much. There are much better issues to fall on your sword my friend, this is not one of them.

Have fun ripping this apart, I will not respond.

[Alaska444]

Here, instead of arguing about what Herrero said or didn't say, let's just listen to what he stated about his own study.

Fair enough DNS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7yoIheOrTc

[hogshead]

I don't worry to much about being attacked by a black bearbut I do respect them. However Trad Archer I disagree about them being easier to kill than a whitetail. I have seen them soak up a lot of lead and keep on going.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I don't worry to much about being attacked by a black bearbut I do respect them. However Trad Archer I disagree about them being easier to kill than a whitetail. I have seen them soak up a lot of lead and keep on going.

I've had them drop like a stone from a lung shot and the same shot on pretty close to the same size animal run for an eternity. It all depends on the animal. Same with deer. They all react differently. The only way to guarantee a "drop right there" is a CNS.

[Bobson]

Since bears are so widespread, they become a convienient excuse for the wife when you buy that super-ultra-mongo-magnum whatever to 'protect me from any bears when I'm out (insert anything one does outdoors here)'. I tried this. I apparently wasn't convincing enough. :(
It doesn't work on my wife either. Our wives must be smarter than the average bear. Yuk yuk.

[Double Naught Spy]

I DID NOT misrepresent anything. The latest studies show that predatory black bear males is by far the largest percentage of offending bears in looking retrospectively back at attacks. That is a recent finding. That IS what the Herrerro study showed. Very simple and correct summation of the article.

Once again, let's look back at my statements:

Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males.

Yep, I noted that exact statement. The statement is false as Hererro did not say that the majority of black bear attacks were by predatory males. He was describing serious injury and fatal black bear attacks. In fact, he doesn't have the data to determine if that if the majority of the attacks are or are not by predatory males. You see, as he has noted in various publications, while data on people killed has been kept since 1900, nobody has kept data on the number of people suffering minor injuries except for a 20 year (1960-1980) parks study. Notice that the article does not mention anything about attacks resulting in minor injuries.

If you read the paper and missed this critical point, then it would appear to you that the majority of recent black bear attacks were by predatory males. You would also come away with the notion that black bear attacks always result in serious injuries or are fatal.

The same problem was described in this BC study from 1960-1997. The only minor injury data they could obtain was from 1986-1993 and those data were not presented in the paper. The only data discussed were serious injuries and fatalities caused by black bears.
http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_11/Herrero_Higgins_Vol_11.pdf

Here, instead of arguing about what Herrero said or didn't say, let's just listen to what he stated about his own study.

Well from Hererro's article abstract and own YT description of his study, not once did he state that the majority of recent black bear attacks were by predatory males. He did specifically state that the data he was discussing were only those incidents resulting in human serious injuries or deaths by black bears and the black bears causing the deaths are primarily male.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jwmg.72/abstract

As for the studies showing this, what studies? You only cited the science news article that described Hererro's paper.

I am talking about predatory BLACK BEARS. I am under the impression that the majority of attacks in Yellowstone are grizzly. Completely different population than I am talking about.

Fair enough, but this should suffice...
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=gFlz6UKGqrcC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&dq=hererro+black+bear+attack&ots=amgzR0YUII&sig=kaYSOvUMPiw3TPsLN_17O_9Pxik#v=onepage&q=black%20bear&f=false
Out of more than 500 black bear induced injuries to people in the study, 90% were minor injuries. These data were collected during a 20 year time period (1960-1980. From 1900 to 1980, there were only 35 seriously injured folks of which 23 died.

Minor injuries are not hallmarks of predatory black bears.

Folks here did make a neat observation...
http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/bears-a-humans/119-how-dangerous-are-black-bears.html
They noted that offensive attacks by black bears were predatory and are oftn fatal. This are in the minority, however. Defensive attacks by black bears occur more often and generally result in minor injuries and not death. The same sentiment is offered here...
http://mingomorvin.com/bui/wildlifearticles/?p=167

[WardenWolf]

My personal belief as to why bear defense seems to get the most attention is because a bear is considered a "hard target": something that is very hard to stop in comparison to, say, a single dog or even a mountain lion. The logic goes that if whatever you're using can stop a bear, it can stop just about anything else you'll likely encounter. As a result, the bear is the "gold standard" for defense.

[Art Eatman]

I guess it was maybe twenty years back that an article with comments from wildlife biologists claimed that black bears were more likely than Alaskan Biggies to attack people as a food source. Overall, the Biggies made more false charges as a territorial defense. I don't recall any differentiation between male and female; it might have been mentioned, but I just don't remember.

But the thread subject has to do with the psychology of worries about bear attacks, not which bear does what.

I go back to my earlier post, and add that bears are pretty much the only dangerous game in North America. Sure, cougars are dangerous, but much fewer in number and are rarely seen--which gets to the "Out of sight, out of mind" thing. More people see bears, more frequently.

[Alaska444]

Yesterday, 11:57 PM #64
Double Naught Spy
Member


Join Date: December 24, 2002
Location: Forestburg, Texas
Posts: 7,580
Quote:
I DID NOT misrepresent anything. The latest studies show that predatory black bear males is by far the largest percentage of offending bears in looking retrospectively back at attacks. That is a recent finding. That IS what the Herrerro study showed. Very simple and correct summation of the article.
Quote:
Once again, let's look back at my statements:

Actually, the majority of black bear attacks recently is predatory black bear males.
Yep, I noted that exact statement. The statement is false as Hererro did not say that the majority of black bear attacks were by predatory males. He was describing serious injury and fatal black bear attacks. In fact, he doesn't have the data to determine if that if the majority of the attacks are or are not by predatory males. You see, as he has noted in various publications, while data on people killed has been kept since 1900, nobody has kept data on the number of people suffering minor injuries except for a 20 year (1960-1980) parks study. Notice that the article does not mention anything about attacks resulting in minor injuries.

If you read the paper and missed this critical point, then it would appear to you that the majority of recent black bear attacks were by predatory males. You would also come away with the notion that black bear attacks always result in serious injuries or are fatal.

The same problem was described in this BC study from 1960-1997. The only minor injury data they could obtain was from 1986-1993 and those data were not presented in the paper. The only data discussed were serious injuries and fatalities caused by black bears.
http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin...ins_Vol_11.pdf

Quote:
Here, instead of arguing about what Herrero said or didn't say, let's just listen to what he stated about his own study.
Well from Hererro's article abstract and own YT description of his study, not once did he state that the majority of recent black bear attacks were by predatory males. He did specifically state that the data he was discussing were only those incidents resulting in human serious injuries or deaths by black bears and the black bears causing the deaths are primarily male.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...mg.72/abstract

As for the studies showing this, what studies? You only cited the science news article that described Hererro's paper.

Quote:
I am talking about predatory BLACK BEARS. I am under the impression that the majority of attacks in Yellowstone are grizzly. Completely different population than I am talking about.
Fair enough, but this should suffice...
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...20bear&f=false
Out of more than 500 black bear induced injuries to people in the study, 90% were minor injuries. These data were collected during a 20 year time period (1960-1980. From 1900 to 1980, there were only 35 seriously injured folks of which 23 died.

Minor injuries are not hallmarks of predatory black bears.

Folks here did make a neat observation...
http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pag...ack-bears.html
They noted that offensive attacks by black bears were predatory and are oftn fatal. This are in the minority, however. Defensive attacks by black bears occur more often and generally result in minor injuries and not death. The same sentiment is offered here...
http://mingomorvin.com/bui/wildlifearticles/?p=167
__________________
Texas BorderWatch www.blueservo.net


Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. Like I said earlier, I will no longer respond to your absurd allegations. :what::banghead::eek::confused::uhoh::what:

Interesting how you go on and on about a statement from my memory, clarified in the next statement yet you fail to address the innacuracies of your own statements I pointed out. Go figure.

[JohnBT]

My grandparents farmed 1500 apple trees in the mountains south of Charlottesville and my great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents did it before them. (Had a relative partially scalped near King's Mountain back during the war, but that didn't involve a bear.)

Plenty of black bears in Blue Ridge and in the orchard, but nobody ever heard of a bear stalking a human. We were raised to fear a momma bear with a cub or two. "Don't get between them and if you do, run to the side."

There was that one incident with the hunted bear trying to come down the logging trail while my father, uncle and grandfather were headed up, but that was just the bear trying to get away from some hunters. That's the story about how hard it is to kill a male black bear with bird shot even if you have 3 shotguns at contact range.

Maybe the researchers lived someplace else with a different strain of black bear. Maybe they misread the reports they searched.

Lots of bear hunters in my family, but none ever heard of a bear stalking a man. Raiding foodstuffs at a camp doesn't count as stalking a man even if there's a man in camp at the time.

John

[JohnBT]

www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

- there are about 15 times as many black bears as grizzlies, grizzlies kill about twice as many people

- black bears have killed only 63 people in the United States and Canada over the last 109 years

Predatory? Hardly.

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

My guess would be that the "scientists" that did the "predatory" study were mistaking "predatory" for "territorial". You get in a mating male's territory, they will have a tendency to aggressively remove you from that territory. It's been pretty much proven that, with the exception of a very few animals, humans taste like crap to other animals. It is a very rare instance that we are hunted for food. 99% of the time it is either a surprise encounter or a territorial encounter with a mating aggressive male that will spur an attack. I don't put much stock in what a bunch of egg heads put together in a paper. Most of them wouldn't know true outdoor nature if it smacked them in the head. They crunch a bunch of numbers from supposed accounts and state what they come up with as fact. I'll take the word of a grizzled old man that's lived in the outdoors over ANY egg head. The mountains of Tennessee where I was raised has (or had) a very good population of black bear yet there were very little "attacks" in Tennessee. Wonder why? Because those of us raised in those mountains had a little common sense and listened to our Dads and Granddads when teaching us how to avoid those encounters.

[brnmuenchow]

Zombies are fake and no one wants to be bear poop.

That too.
Living in South Texas no you do not see bears out on your patio on a daily basis, we do however have black bears, mtn. lion's... so it does give some of us a good excuse to get get really big guns. I do not believe bears just go around trying to find the next person to be dinner but if I am walking around in hill country or West Texas, I got a big gun just for my own piece of mind. Bears are really cool animals, and I have a very healthy respect for them.:)

[hardluk1]

Ain't it about time to close this tread. Same stuff hashed to death. Do what you want to do. Most are going to anyhow.

[Certaindeaf]

I remember a story in the American Rifleman or somesuch many decades ago.
A fellow back east was out hiking with his dog and a black bear wanted to eat him. All he had was a 3" pocket folder and his dog sure rope a doped that bear pretty good. It seems there was a three way fight for quite some time with the hiker (an elderly gentleman) stabbing the bear many, many times.
When the hiker finally stabbed and then pushed the knife so that handle and all was inserted, did he finally kill it.

[blarby]

"why ? "

Because most people are enamored with the belief that they could do it if they had to, if only the perfect gun or cartridge for it existed.

From what we actually " DO " know, from personal recollections, published studies, and anecdotal evidence- is that the perfect weapon for bear would be a 6 shot 2" 12 ga snubbie- loaded with 3.5" magnum shells each containing a 1 oz slug, 3 pieces of 00 buck, 3 180gr HP rifle bullets, and 1/2 ounce of high concentration OC "bear mace" - the grip of said pistol containing an auto-lockon mechanism capable of engaging a bouncing tennis ball moving somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 MPH, which if failing to score a kill shot within 5 rounds automatically encapsulates the firers hand in shear-proof metal armor. This would allow the fatal final shot to be dispatched directly into the offending creatures mouth without severing the firers' hand at the wrist in the attempt.

I know, I want one too :D

I also strongly suspect some of it has an undercurrent of "If it could stop a big powerful bear, it could stop anything else" Which is ironically both as true and false as you personally believe it to be.

[Art Eatman]

Enough for this iteration of the general subject of bears. It'll come up again, I have no doubt.

In the meantime, get Lyle Lovett's song, "Bears". :D