IDPA Stock Service Pistol Question


PDA






IdahoSkies
April 26, 2012, 12:48 PM
Last time I shot IDPA I used a a EAA witness 9mm. Its a DA/SA pistol, with a safety and no decocker, so the only way to chamber a round and drop the safety is to do it manually, a no-no for IDPA I found out (safety concern and all).

When I look at the IDPA rules it allows Double action pistols in SSP, ("when the trigger is pulled the striker/hammer is cocked and then released" p. 19). The additional rule states "H. Begin hammer down for selective DA/SA pistols."

Since the Witness's hammer can not be "safely" dropped without firing a round (and thereby cycling the action and cocking the hammer) it has to be shot in the Enhanced Service Pistol Division.

Am I reading things right?

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tarakian
April 26, 2012, 12:58 PM
Yes, you are reading it right.

Sam1911
April 26, 2012, 01:08 PM
I think you're asking how to shoot a DA/SA without a decocking lever in SSP?

Seat mag, chamber round, point at berm, grab hammer with support hand, press trigger and lower hammer gently to its rest position. First shot will be DA.

That's how all DA/SA guns without decocking levers (like CZ75s) are shot in IDPA. I don't know of any reason the Witness pistols can't be fired this way. Do they not work similarly to the CZs?

Jim Watson
April 26, 2012, 01:50 PM
No, you are not reading it right. Sorry, tarakian.
There is no IDPA rule against manually lowering the hammer to get to a DA start for SSP.
I have shot a CZ75 in SSP by easing the hammer down. A few rookie SOs have gotten nervous but they have no grounds to keep me from doing so. It is even in the operator's manual.
I have not had an AD in competition or practice or even come close. Just remember that Load and Make Ready is not a timed event and be careful about it.

IdahoSkies
April 26, 2012, 02:01 PM
Huh. The SO told me that I had to drop the hammer by pulling the trigger without touching the hammer "due to safety." His reasoning was they needed to know if something was in the chamber and if the hammer dropped and the gun fired, they knew.

ClickClickD'oh
April 26, 2012, 02:03 PM
Idaho, that sounds like the proper instructions for lowering the hammer after shooting and showing the weapon as empty... not for the load and make ready portion before shooting.

Sam1911
April 26, 2012, 02:05 PM
Sounds like there's two different issues here.

1) When doing the "UNLOAD -- SHOW CLEAR" step at the end of a string of fire, you do have to pull the trigger and drop the hammer on an empty chamber. That proves to everyone that your gun is empty and thus safe.

2) When doing the "LOAD -- MAKE READY" step at the beginning of a string of fire, you obviously don't want an empty chamber. You want to make the gun ready to shoot. The safe way to do that is to carefully lower the hammer onto its stop, with the chamber loaded.

Sounds like he, or you, or both got your wires really crossed up!

Sam1911
April 26, 2012, 02:06 PM
If you do have a decocker lever on your gun, the basic issue would be the same. When loading and making ready, lower the hammer without firing the cartridge in the chamber.

When unloading and showing clear, you then pull the trigger to dryfire on that empty chamber, thus proving it is clear.

MrDig
April 26, 2012, 05:15 PM
So what category would a Stock Browning Hi-Power (with the Mag Safety intact) fall into?
Can I shoot IDPA with a Hi-Power?

chhodge69
April 26, 2012, 05:29 PM
The only safety concern I can imagine would come up is using an improper technique to manually lower the hammer. I've seen plenty of people try to use their strong hand thumb, which is a REALLY bad idea (slip, bang, broken thumb, hot gun on the ground, etc.)

I've also watched SO's instruct new shooters how to safely lower the hammer using their support hand. Talk to the match director before the start of your next match.

Jim Watson
April 26, 2012, 06:37 PM
"So what category would a Stock Browning Hi-Power (with the Mag Safety intact) fall into?
Can I shoot IDPA with a Hi-Power?"

Sure, you can.
A Browning is a single action auto in a caliber other than .45 ACP. That makes it an ESP, right in there with the cocked and locked CZ and the smallbore Colt G.Ms.

Now you can take out the magazine disconnect, it has been deemed not a "safety device" within the meaning of the rules. If you don't want to remove it, be sure to have an extra EMPTY magazine along so you can drop the hammer at the end of the stage when told to Unload and Show Clear.

MrDig
April 27, 2012, 12:49 AM
Now you can take out the magazine disconnect, it has been deemed not a "safety device" within the meaning of the rules. If you don't want to remove it, be sure to have an extra EMPTY magazine along so you can drop the hammer at the end of the stage when told to Unload and Show Clear.

Excellent news I was a little nervous about removing mine so I could shoot with it but now I will take it out and find the next beginners shoot near me.
Thanks Jim

MrBorland
April 27, 2012, 06:49 AM
Now you can take out the magazine disconnect, it has been deemed not a "safety device" within the meaning of the rules.

I read that announcement when it came out on the IDPA forum. Seems to me to be a breath of life for a gun I've always thought would make a dandy ESP gun.

BTW, for the same reason, it looks like the locking flag on newer S&W revolvers can be removed, as well.

I enjoyed meeting you at the AL State match, Jim.

GCBurner
April 29, 2012, 01:29 PM
I took my old Taurus Pt-99 to an IDPA match at an out of town range, and because it is the older model with no decocker, I went to lower the hammer on the loaded chamber like usual by pulling the trigger and easing it down, gripped with the thumb and index finger of my left hand. This blocks the hammer from any posibility of hitting the firing pin. The S.O. yelled "TRIGGER!!", and nearly Disqualified me on the first stage. I argued the point about this being the proper method for this type of SSP with the R.O.s, but finally had to shoot the rest of the match starting with the holstered pistol cocked and the frame-mounted safety on, like a cocked-and-locked 1911 style gun.

Sam1911
April 29, 2012, 03:07 PM
That's the sort of problem you really should take up with the Match Director. Not every SO is knowledgeable about every firearm. If the MD still makes that same erroneous call -- that's too bad. A note of clarification from his Area Coordinator should straighten that out, I'd think. Depends how deeply you want to pursue it. If you shoot there often it might be worth the effort to get them up to speed.

GCBurner
April 29, 2012, 05:53 PM
That's the sort of problem you really should take up with the Match Director. Not every SO is knowledgeable about every firearm. If the MD still makes that same erroneous call -- that's too bad. A note of clarification from his Area Coordinator should straighten that out, I'd think. Depends how deeply you want to pursue it. If you shoot there often it might be worth the effort to get them up to speed.
The next time I went to this particular range for a match, I just took a Glock. That, or a 1911, seems to be what they're most comfortable and familiar with. I've saved the PT-99, with its full capacity magazines, for social situations, instead of competitions.

Gryff
May 2, 2012, 11:49 PM
A Browning is a single action auto in a caliber other than .45 ACP. That makes it an ESP, right in there with the cocked and locked CZ and the smallbore Colt G.Ms.

Even if it is .45acp, it can be used in ESP as long as it meets all the ESP criteria.

Jim Watson
May 3, 2012, 12:14 AM
True, and in fact I do so, the big holes help the score.
But the question was about a Browning,

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