Another gun range mistake


PDA






kb58
April 28, 2012, 12:12 AM
At the local pistol range today there was about six shooters.
Called the range cold, four people walked out to their targets.
Looked over and one guy went back to the bench, picked his pistol up, and prepared to fire in a two-hand hold with the pistol fully pointed down-range.
We yelled at him and he woke up, put the pistol down, and mentioned that he was hard of hearing...

Hard of hearing? How about hard of seeing. His target was located two lanes down from one of the guys out there looking at his target. In other words, he HAD to be in the guy's field of view. Man, that was a scary one and brings up a larger question, one that's harder to answer. That is, at what point do you not allow people to shoot due to them being a danger to others? I've seen this debated before about it being a right to bear arms, but what if you can't be trusted with them?

That could have turned out much, much worse. I don't dare tell my wife about this one...

If you enjoyed reading about "Another gun range mistake" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
788Ham
April 28, 2012, 12:28 AM
Well, at our range, when cease fire is called, you lay your weapon down, step away from the bench, and "YOU DON'T GO NEAR THE BENCH UNTIL THE COMMAND TO FIRE IS CALLED" If its the pistol range, like you called, you still stay away from the benches! If on the rifle range { big bore }, and you want to make a couple of changes to your scope, you cannot touch that firearm until the command to"Commence Fire" is called, if you do touch that firearm, you are told to leave the range immediately, whether you are a member or not! When cease fire is called, there is a yellow line painted on the floor, about 8' behind the benches, you step back behind that line until further commands are given. If its "sight-in day", there will be those who go down and retrieve targets, you still stay away from the benches until all targets are retrieved and or replaced, no quarters given!

mnrivrat
April 28, 2012, 12:32 AM
Folks make mistakes every day. He didn't fire, and no one was injured.

There is no way to be 100% safe from other peoples mistakes. It is unlikely that you will live your entire life without making a few of those mistakes yourself.

If this is that large of a deal to you then for gods sake don't get into a car and drive in public.

I understand your concern, but getting this upset may not be warranted.

EchoM70
April 28, 2012, 12:32 AM
That's pretty crazy, never had any such incidents myself at a range but it good to always be cautious.

Anyways, that's a hard question to answer which will and has sparked a debate. Of course safety of yourself and others is a huge concern but your talking about stripping someone of their rights over a mistake. I know mistake and firearms shouldn't be in the same sentence, but it does happen. Who can say that they've never been involved or heard about a ND or AC. Stuff like this does happen and thankfully most of the time no one is hurt.

It's just a hard thing to rule on. Would you take a guy his rights or let him carry on and the next time he slips-up someone is injured or killed. Maybe after such an event you should be required to pass a mental test in order to ensure your mentally stable enough to posse and operate a firearm.

-Echo

medalguy
April 28, 2012, 12:49 AM
Come on, guys, this could have ended very differently. Safety is something you NEVER let up on, unless you're prepared to accept the consequences of an accident. Me, I'm not.

How about telling the offender he's done for the day, but he can return at a later date. That's for the first time. IF there's ever a second time, he's done forever at that range. Fair? That should make a good impression on the offender, but allow him to learn from his mistake. If he doesn't learn, too bad.

exavid
April 28, 2012, 01:00 AM
I'd get a bit exercised if I was downrange and someone picked up a weapon and pointed it downrange. For more than one reason. Most likely the miscreant wasn't paying attention to what was going on around him, but he could have been a mental case looking to score some moving targets. There's no way to tell. I definitely would rip him off a strip if that happened to me. It would be memorable enough for the guy to think next time. At my gun club members have access 24/7. We don't have a designated range officer for non-shooting events, everyone is expected to act as their own RO. I have on occasion informed someone about the range rules and safety matters. I do it in an instructive manner, not combative. I've only had one person react badly and when that happened I left. There wasn't anyone else there except the member who wasn't following our rules. I notified our club president and our safety committee reviewed the security video covering the incident. The next meeting the guy was refunded his prorated dues and his membership canceled. We don't take range safety casually. The club hasn't had an accident on the range in it's 70 year history and we don't want to break that string.

coalman
April 28, 2012, 01:22 AM
Mistakes happen. Big and small. And, we're all capable of making them, and IMO it's when you forget that that you make them. I'm sure the incident had an equally strong or greater impact on that shooter. Regardless, range rules and range policy should be enforced.

kb58
April 28, 2012, 01:44 AM
I understand your concern, but getting this upset may not be warranted.
You've never seen me upset...

I just posted this to let people to always be on-guard, even when checking your targets (never thought I'd say that.) An RO was around but didn't see the incident. The "big deal" was that the guy pointed his gun down-range at his target - and I mean his finger was on the trigger - with somone out there not 5 degrees to the left if his target... how he didn't notice was very disconcerting.

I guess if I'm upset, it's at all of us who didn't report him to the RO and just assumed, "oh well, it was just a mistake."

FROGO207
April 28, 2012, 06:21 AM
Everyone at the site has the burden of watching out for the others safety at all times. The unstated "I got your back at the same time you have mine" that always should be exercised when firearms are involved. This will help us all remain safe from poor judgment or carelessness of others in these situations. Usually there are rules and have to be adhered to at formal ranges and appropriate redress. At informal gatherings then extra vigilance is certainly warranted and I will arrive and watch the proceedings for a while to assess unknown participants before I venture to the firing line myself.

Flopsweat
April 28, 2012, 08:26 AM
At the local pistol range today there was about six shooters.
Called the range cold, four people walked out to their targets.
Looked over and one guy went back to the bench, picked his pistol up, and prepared to fire in a two-hand hold with the pistol fully pointed down-range.
We yelled at him and he woke up, put the pistol down, and mentioned that he was hard of hearing...

Hard of hearing? How about hard of seeing. His target was located two lanes down from one of the guys out there looking at his target. In other words, he HAD to be in the guy's field of view. Man, that was a scary one and brings up a larger question, one that's harder to answer. That is, at what point do you not allow people to shoot due to them being a danger to others? I've seen this debated before about it being a right to bear arms, but what if you can't be trusted with them?

That could have turned out much, much worse. I don't dare tell my wife about this one...

He went back to the bench? So he started toward the targets and then went back? If that's the case, this is not about his ears - it's about what's between them. I'd check with other members. If he's done anything like this in the past, some action is necessary, possibly including a ban.

This is not about a right to bear arms. This is a safety issue. Doesn't matter if it's a private or public range either. You're not infringing on his rights by kicking him out. If that were true, no one could be kicked out of anywhere. He still has the right to bear arms, speak, travel and so forth - he just needs to do these things somewhere else. Until he does something even worse, at which point he can discuss his rights in front of a jury.

beatledog7
April 28, 2012, 08:34 AM
Most rules exist because someone got hurt doing that which is now against the rules.

Any time other people have firearms within a few feet of us, we are at some risk. There's just no way around it.

Like we say about "no guns" signs: making a rule will usually prevent the lucid, conscientious person from breaking it but will do nothing to deter the person who doesn't care or isn't paying attention.

As for banning him, I'd say no. How many of us would be able to shoot anywhere (or for that matter, as someone said, drive a car) if any sort of infraction of the safety rules, no matter how slight and no matter the outcome, got us banned? I dare say most of us have at some time committed such an act, either without realizing it or figuring nobody saw it.

I'm not saying his infraction was minor or excusable, but it's unlikely to be repeated unless he really doesn't care.

Manson
April 28, 2012, 08:46 AM
I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions. Mistakes do happen, but his was no small mistake. It was a small trigger pull away from a possible tragedy. At my range he would have been sent home.

A gentleman at my home range, here in Florida, was firing a .22. he was not wearing socks and hot brass fell into his shoe. He proceeded to dance around his lane on one foot oooh-ing and ooow-inng. The entire time waving his pistol wildly with his finger on the trigger. He was asked to leave and not return.

larryh1108
April 28, 2012, 08:49 AM
Of course safety of yourself and others is a huge concern but your talking about stripping someone of their rights over a mistake.

Well, telling a guy he is too careless to shoot at your range is not stripping him of his rights. You do need to be diligent when you have a loaded firearm on your body or in your hand. If he didn't hear, that's one thing but still a big thing. To not see someone walking down a lane 2 lanes over is not paying attention. Not paying attention leads to accidents. Banning him from your range (or the minimum telling him to go home and think about it) is not stripping him of anything except his pride. If you can't be extra careful with a loaded firearm in your hands then I don't want to be next to him at the range.

EddieNFL
April 28, 2012, 09:24 AM
Minimum 30 day suspension, then meet the BOD and explain your actions. Maybe you get to come back.

buck460XVR
April 28, 2012, 10:09 AM
Most rules exist because someone got hurt doing that which is now against the rules.




.......and I would assume the OP's range has rules to cover the incident. If not, there's not much they can do except chew the guy out(which is what he deserves anyway, on top of any rule violation reprimand).





Everyone at the site has the burden of watching out for the others safety at all times.

Exactly, and even more if there is not an official RO on site. Most small and not for profit ranges don't have full time supervision and many on public land have no one to even relay safety infractions to. These are no different than a group hunt in the field. Those involved must be the ones to make sure everyone is practicing safe gun handling and confronting someone when they do not. In the field you can tell someone they are no longer welcome in the group, but unless they are on private land, you can't force them to leave the field. Thus you still need to be aware of them and the possible danger they present. In the field one needs to be safety conscious themselves, but also to be aware of others around them and the direction of their muzzles. Same can be said for unsupervised public ranges.

Sav .250
April 28, 2012, 10:26 AM
Where was the RO (Range official)? At the range...Trust nobody. I`m talking about the shooters.

SaxonPig
April 28, 2012, 10:32 AM
About 20 years ago an older gentleman fired two rounds with folks downrange. No harm done, but after that red lights were mounted at the firing line to be activated during cease fires so there was a visual signal that is hard to miss. I wish the range i use now had such a system. But it does require electricity to the ranges.

tri70
April 28, 2012, 10:39 AM
Safety means checking that all have laid their weapons down and heard the cease fire command. Call them out and make sure they understand their error.

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 10:43 AM
Folks make mistakes every day. He didn't fire, and no one was injured.

There is no way to be 100% safe from other peoples mistakes. It is unlikely that you will live your entire life without making a few of those mistakes yourself.

If this is that large of a deal to you then for gods sake don't get into a car and drive in public.

I understand your concern, but getting this upset may not be warranted.


My feelings exactly. I believe there are way to many out there wishing point out the errors and minstkes of others and to judge them in whatever they.

Case in point was the thread about Ted Nugent, and please I'm only using this as an example, lets not go off on that tangent again.

buggley
April 28, 2012, 10:50 AM
i had that same kind of thing happen with my father in law. ours is a public red neck rang, we have benches but its a shoot at your own risk kind of thing. i took him up there for the first time and he has never been out with me since. there was a dad and his sun at the 25 mark at the left end and we were at the oposite end. the boy was getting a patern down for his shotgun before season opened. they would shoot twice and wait for us to empty then we all went down range. we did this 3 or 4 times. during one of these my father in law noticed that we hadnt fired on of the pistols as the boy was down at the 25 mark my father in law picked it up and and started shooting. every one yelled and got his attention, the boy hit the dirt at the first shot. that was the first time i have ever done anything with my father inlaw and he hasnt been back since. we were at the last booth on one side and they were at the last boot at the other side, about 35 yards away. i can understand not being able to see the boy at first but it all falls into being aware of your suroundings and looking around every now and then and little bit common sence.

Manson
April 28, 2012, 11:23 AM
OK JC, did you deliberately misspell mistakes hoping someone would point it out and prove your point?;)

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 11:51 AM
:DThe audience may never know for sure.:p

EddieNFL
April 28, 2012, 01:37 PM
Some seem more lackadaisical about safety. Aside from some mental defect there is no excuse for what this shooter did. And if such a condition does exist he doesn't need to handle firearms...or drive.

Cosmoline
April 28, 2012, 01:41 PM
The most astonishing was the one I witnessed a few years back when a man on a full pistol range with about 30 shooters just up and started walking out to get his target! It was astonishing to see. Bullets were literally flying past either side of him as he darted out there.

Odd thing is, it was so brazen and so insane nobody really yelled at him. I mean what good is yelling if he ignores *bullets*?!

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 28, 2012, 01:44 PM
The most astonishing was the one I witnessed a few years back when a man on a full pistol range with about 30 shooters just up and started walking out to get his target! It was astonishing to see. Bullets were literally flying past either side of him as he darted out there.

Odd thing is, it was so brazen and so insane nobody really yelled at him. I mean what good is yelling if he ignores *bullets*?!

Why didn't the people shooting stop when they saw him out there?

Nushif
April 28, 2012, 01:52 PM
I am kinda torn on my opinion about this.

I do believe safety is paramount and that truly unsafe people should be banned from ranges for it.

But listen to you guys!

He made a mistake. So far he was called mentally unfit to own a gun, a "miscreant," it's been alluded to that he was possibly a nutcase trying to kill everyone ...

I don't wanna hear what you think about the average 20 year old driver if this is what you think about a guy who lost his focus at the range. Sorry.

lionking
April 28, 2012, 02:23 PM
That wasn't just some small mistake, it was a HUGE mistake and that person should have been told to leave immediately.

chrome_austex
April 28, 2012, 02:49 PM
I'd immediately and politely send him home for the day after an error like that.

I might not ban him entirely though, as people do make mistakes from time to time.

Plan2Live
April 28, 2012, 02:50 PM
This is exactly why I hope no one ever invents ear muffs with a built in radio or iPod connection. If I were the offender no one would have to ask me to leave, I would pack up and leave in shame and probably never go back.

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 02:53 PM
This is exactly why I hope no one ever invents ear muffs with a built in radio or iPod connection. If I were the offender no one would have to ask me to leave, I would pack up and leave in shame and probably never go back.


All ready available.

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 02:56 PM
To all those referring to him in a derogatory terms and wish to toss him out, are any of you Certified NRA Range Officers?

Just wondering how far your powers go and by what authority.

Prince Yamato
April 28, 2012, 03:09 PM
Something doesn't sound right with that guy. That goes way beyond "approaching the bench during a ceasefire"; I see people do that all the time. Actually picking up a gun and aiming when you see others? I'd say something in that guy's head isn't quite right.

lionking
April 28, 2012, 03:15 PM
^ jcwit, we don't need to be range officers to know that was clearly a highly dangerous act and most range officers that I know would tear a new one into that guy and send him packing.

If he wasn't sent packing , I would leave for the day because I wouldn't feel comfortable being at the range.

It wasn't a little mistake.

Nushif
April 28, 2012, 03:33 PM
I don't think anyone is saying what he did wasn't a huge mistake and that he shouldn't be sent packing.

What I am saying is that because he made the mistake he is neither a "miscreant", nor a potential murderer, nor should his 2A right be revoked.

He's a guy who lost focus and needs a chill pill from the range until he can engage in safe shooting habits.

EddieNFL
April 28, 2012, 03:42 PM
If I were the offender no one would have to ask me to leave, I would pack up and leave in shame and probably never go back.

That's because you take responsibility for your actions.

To all those referring to him in a derogatory terms and wish to toss him out, are any of you Certified NRA Range Officers?

Don't believe I used any derogatory terms, but yes, I am a NRA certified Chief Range Safety Officer and sit on the BoD. Personal desires have nothing to do with wanting to ban anyone. If I did not suspend someone who committed such a serious offense, I am not fulling my obligations as a club officer or member.

Over the years I have suspended more than few violators for various reasons. I've never publicly humiliated or called anyone names. I have used a very direct and authoritative tone when the occasion called for such. I have never enjoyed disciplining anyone.

Folks, we're talking about loaded firearms. How 'bout we let DUI offenders off with a warning provided no one gets hurt?

drsfmd
April 28, 2012, 07:40 PM
As for banning him, I'd say no. How many of us would be able to shoot anywhere (or for that matter, as someone said, drive a car) if any sort of infraction of the safety rules, no matter how slight and no matter the outcome, got us banned?

Can't agree. There's no wiggle room on safety stuff... that fellow should be banned. If nothing else, he's likely to learn his lesson for the next club he goes to.

beatledog7
April 28, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatledog7 :
As for banning him, I'd say no. How many of us would be able to shoot anywhere (or for that matter, as someone said, drive a car) if any sort of infraction of the safety rules, no matter how slight and no matter the outcome, got us banned?

Response from drsfmd:
Can't agree. There's no wiggle room on safety stuff... that fellow should be banned. If nothing else, he's likely to learn his lesson for the next club he goes to.

What makes you think this person hasn't learned the lesson and that only banning him from this range will teach it?

If the club rules state that his specific violation is cause for immediate and permanent dismissal, then yes, dismiss him. Otherwise, kick the guy out and he has a legal case that he will quite likely win.

A better solution is some stern counseling and rigorous retraining from the RO, not from other club members.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. What about when it's you who has an ND at the range, or when the range goes hot and you take a shot then suddenly remember to don your glasses? You think it can't happen, right? But when it does, will you still be in favor of immediately banning first-time safety rule violators?

This board goes round and round on muzzle protocol, when is a gun a gun, definitions of "verify the gun is unloaded" and such ad infinitum, and we never get anywhere as long as somebody insists that he never has and will never commit an infraction of the rules as he sees them, and that anyone who does is not worthy to walk the same Earth.

I agree the infraction was serious, but people are imperfect. Otherwise, we'd have no need of rules. Let the person who's perfect be the first to flame me.

drsfmd
April 28, 2012, 08:40 PM
Otherwise, kick the guy out and he has a legal case that he will quite likely win.

Private clubs can and do dismiss people all the time, and there's no recourse to the dismissed. We send back the years dues to everyone who is dismissed from our club, so they don't even have that to complain about.

A better solution is some stern counseling and rigorous retraining from the RO, not from other club members.
I've been a chief RO for a number of years now, and it's been my experience that most shooters who have done something stupid see nothing wrong with what they have done... and are hostile to counseling.


Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. What about when it's you who has an ND at the range, or when the range goes hot and you take a shot then suddenly remember to don your glasses? You think it can't happen, right? But when it does, will you still be in favor of immediately banning first-time safety rule violators?

If you think that forgetting your glasses and putting the lives of others in imminent danger are even part of the same conversation, I don't want you at the bench next to me.

Deltaboy
April 28, 2012, 08:45 PM
Praise the Lord no one got shot! We would send him home for 30 days of no range use.

EddieNFL
April 28, 2012, 08:48 PM
Private clubs can and do dismiss people all the time, and there's no recourse to the dismissed. We send back the years dues to everyone who is dismissed from our club, so they don't even have that to complain about.


I've been a chief RO for a number of years now, and it's been my experience that most shooters who have done something stupid see nothing wrong with what they have done... and are hostile to counseling.




If you think that forgetting your glasses and putting the lives of others in imminent danger are even part of the same conversation, I don't want you at the bench next to me.
Ditto cubed.

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 08:52 PM
How 'bout we let DUI offenders off with a warning provided no one gets hurt?


We already do that!

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 08:54 PM
that most shooters who have done something stupid see nothing wrong with what they have done... and are hostile to counseling.

Usually all depends on how its handled. In my experience.

mquail
April 28, 2012, 09:09 PM
My son, a friend and myself were at the range sighting in a .223 we'd just mounted a new scope on. I was concentrating on shooting when my son tapped me and opened the bolt on the rifle. "What are you doing?" Then I looked downrange, there was a guy walking down to his target. His son was with him and mortified at what had just happened. He apologized and promised to be more careful in montoring his dad. We went back to shooting but kept 2 sets of eyes on our company. These things happen so we are more careful when others are out shooting and sharing the range with us.

beatledog7
April 28, 2012, 09:13 PM
If you think that forgetting your glasses and putting the lives of others in imminent danger are even part of the same conversation, I don't want you at the bench next to me.

No, they are not, and that was not a good example. The ND example was better.

I have said, this guy committed a serious violation and clearly needs to be sanctioned in some way. My experience with such issues has taught me that shoving him off to some other club where he may well exhibit similar behavior is not the answer. It is better to fix the problem where the problem exists.

I follow the rules as diligently as you do, and to date I have neither violated a range rule nor done anything unsafe. I'd be honored to share a range with you and would feel safe doing so, and I presume we'd both be watching out for each other nonetheless.

Just this and I'm done here: The guy that honestly thinks he is immune to doing something stupid is the next one who will do something stupid. It could be you.

What Would You Say
April 28, 2012, 09:13 PM
I read through many of the posts on this and I think I nearly changed my mind every other post. (ban/not ban). I'm lucky enough to not to have to go to a range to shoot. I have been before though, where they used green and red flags at each station. I think the offender originally spoken of was likely so deep in thought that he paid no attention to what he was doing; operating on auto pilot. It's happened to all of us. Just hopefully the stakes weren't as high. I would say obliviously running a red light while deep in thought might be a little more dangerous than what happened on the range, but not much else. But overall, my opinion is that he would have to be disciplined in some way. Not as pure punishment, but as a tool or means to help him never forget to focus while participating in an activity that could immediately end a life from not maintaining awareness. I am one that usually dismisses mistakes and fairly non-confrontational, but if my son was downrange what would have been my reaction or someone else?

jcwit
April 28, 2012, 09:16 PM
My son, a friend and myself were at the range sighting in a .223 we'd just mounted a new scope on. I was concentrating on shooting when my son tapped me and opened the bolt on the rifle. "What are you doing?" Then I looked downrange, there was a guy walking down to his target. His son was with him and mortified at what had just happened. He apologized and promised to be more careful in montoring his dad. We went back to shooting but kept 2 sets of eyes on our company. These things happen so we are more careful when others are out shooting and sharing the range with us.

Exactly and not only were you and your son keeping a better watch but I'll make a wild guess the other dad and son were more attentive as to what both they and you 2 were doing.

Furthermore, no one was tossed anywhere. Errors do happen, minimize as much as possible. And do it tactfully. After all non of us are Drill Sargent's.

mquail
April 28, 2012, 09:40 PM
Furthermore, no one was tossed anywhere. Errors do happen, minimize as much as possible. And do it tactfully. After all non of us are Drill Sargent's.


We all parted on amiable terms. No harsh words were tossed around and I hope everyone had a great time. I like shooting there and like the people although it's a public range so I make it a point to have a trash can in the back of the truck:cuss: I have a dumpster and encourage everyone to throw what they pick up in the can I bring.

jmr40
April 28, 2012, 09:52 PM
I'm almost 100% deaf in my right ear. If you are on my right side I ain't gonna hear anything, especially after I double up with both plugs and muffs. I think the 2 guys who walked down range before they were 100% sure are at least as at fault. There is no RO where I shoot. No one goes down range without making eye contact with other shooters and getting a thumbs up from everyone there.

theautobahn
April 28, 2012, 10:38 PM
If something like that happened to me, I wouldn't stick around to see if he was asked to leave, I would have already packed up and decided to shoot a different day.

That being said, I guess I'm spoiled. The club I belong to has two outdoor "properties", each with multiple ranges (and each range has multiple stations). There have definitely been times where I haven't felt comfortable and moved down to a different range.

WTBguns10kOK
April 28, 2012, 11:11 PM
I always look at everyone before I walk downrange, again as I walk the first 10 yards, and go to the actual range as seldom as I can.

JRH6856
April 28, 2012, 11:38 PM
I wish more people had the same level of concern regarding traffic signals. You can get killed just as easily by some idiot busting a red light. And I see it a lot more often.

Single Action Six
April 29, 2012, 04:25 AM
KB 58 said in part..

"We yelled at him and he woke up, put the pistol down, and mentioned that he was hard of hearing..."

When ever I go to the range there are several things I do before shooting. I always let the RO and whoever is shooting next to me know of my HoHi disability. In addition, I wear a Fluorescent Lime traffic safety vest which has reflective beaded stripes on it.

I've let the RO and other shooters know that if there's a cease fire, just reach out and tap me on the shoulder and I'll immediately STOP, engage safety, drop mag, lay my firearm down and step back.

In addition, I've found while wearing the vest (and being so easily seen), it helps to notify others behind the line that there are shooters who are downrange.

So far I've received good responses with my situation from both RO's and fellow shooters.

Single Action Six

45_auto
April 29, 2012, 08:21 AM
At the local pistol range today there was about six shooters.
Called the range cold, four people walked out to their targets.
Looked over and one guy went back to the bench, picked his pistol up, and prepared to fire in a two-hand hold with the pistol fully pointed down-range.
We yelled at him and he woke up, put the pistol down, and mentioned that he was hard of hearing...

Why did he mention that he was hard of hearing?

Did he acknowledge that the range was cold?

Was he one of the ones that walked downrange or was he at his bench reloading mags or something?

Was there a RO there?

Was it a public or private range?

I can't count the number of misunderstandings I've seen on a range (both public and private) where someone doesn't even know what a cold range is, or doesn't understand the rules about firearm handling on a cold range (our rules are that you don't touch a weapon on a cold range). I've had people about 5 yards to one side start walking downrange on a hot range, they thought it was okay as long as they stayed in their lane! They would have probably seen nothing wrong with shooting while others were downrange.

When shooting with people we don't know, we always have someone watching the other shooters. The guy in the OP's original post shouldn't have been able to touch a gun without someone yelling at him that people were downrange.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 08:29 AM
This whole discussion makes me wonder just how any of you go bird or rabbit hunting with 3 or 4 friends. Everyone is walking downrange with loaded firearms, in their hands no less. And consider where the bird dogs are!

theautobahn
April 29, 2012, 08:58 AM
This whole discussion makes me wonder just how any of you go bird or rabbit hunting with 3 or 4 friends. Everyone is walking downrange with loaded firearms, in their hands no less. And consider where the bird dogs are!

Common sense isn't so common.

EddieNFL
April 29, 2012, 09:22 AM
This whole discussion makes me wonder just how any of you go bird or rabbit hunting with 3 or 4 friends. Everyone is walking downrange with loaded firearms, in their hands no less. And consider where the bird dogs are!
Poor analogy, but do you walk in front of your friends? When I hunted birds, everyone was aware of where everyone else was. We had specific fields of fire and no shooter was in-line/in-range of another shooter.

Maybe some hunters are a little more nonchalant. That would explain the Dick Cheney incidents.

dagger dog
April 29, 2012, 09:24 AM
I stopped shooting at a state owned property self regulated range. IMHO it was like a death wish, especially on weekends before hunting season started. Had the barrel of a loaded firearm pointed at me too many times.

I have a 25 yd pistol range set up on my property,but too much new construction has forced me to use a club range 25 miles away for my high power rifle shooting.

This range is enforced and well worth the $$$ and time to make the trip, but it has so many users, that they have had to go to using saftey flags in all the action upon cease fire.

The norm is 45 minutes shooting and a 15 miniute cease fire, once the cease fire has been called, RO asks if there are any hot muzzle loaders and permits them to shoot, then he calls for all weapons to be cleared, magazines removed ,cylinders opened ,slides or bolts locked back and the flags to be placed in the chambers., and all weapons are to be laid on the benches and all shooter to stay bhind the benches.

He then walks the firing line making sure all his commands have been heeded and then and only then are shooters permitted to go down range.

Still Shooting
April 29, 2012, 09:42 AM
On any range there are risks; on a range without a RO the risk is higher. But many clubs, including the one to which I belong, place high value on being able to use the facility when desired. We are basically open 365 days/year, excepting a few BR matches. Even on the weekends we host Appleseed groups, other members can use the range. In the latter situation, the Appleseed Instructors are the RO's, and all others must obey their calls for "Cease Fire," "Range Clear," and "Commence Firing."

We have a generally good group of people, but in the past year we have had 3 serious infractions. New range rules were adopted. TV cameras were installed on the line, and we have a series of red and yellow lights: 28 reds, with a switch at each of 50 benches so that anyone can declare a Cease Fire and "light it up." There is a yellow with a pull cord over each bench, and when going downrange, the yellow gets turned on. When we're finished downrange, the yellow gets turned off. Whoever calls a Cease Fire is the RO until the range is ready to go "hot" again, and he/she calls it (loudly!).

These rules are new. Yesterday, my daughter and I went shooting. While most everybody was doing a decent job at the new system, there was still a lot of more casual hand signalling and gestures. I accept this as a transition to the new system, as long as it's accompanied by use of the lights and no fooling around near the bench during a cease fire.

But there are a couple of questionable situations, even with this degree of control. When the range is cold and I want to grab a couple of targets and my staple gun, go downrange and post new targets, I can't really do so without crossing through the line. The cars are parked behind the line, and there are 50 benches. Going around the end of the line can add a lot of time to the Cease Fire, for everyone! If my stapler is in my range box, or next to it, I can't pick it up if the box is on the bench or on the ground next to it. And when I return to the line after putting up or checking targets, that yellow downrange light is right over the bench; I have to at least walk by that bench to turn the light off.

The new rules require some re-thinking about what gets placed where (range box, car, ......?). It will take some adjusting on everyone's part to be fully compliant. I don't argue with the new setup - in fact, it makes sense. But the mechanics of it will take us all some time to figure out. The infrequent range users will have the most trouble making it work. And we'll still have to keep an eye on each other in a constructive way.

Sky
April 29, 2012, 09:43 AM
All of our outside pistol ranges have a bar that is slid to the left for access down range. When the bar is turned to unlock and is slid left it breaks a contact. We have rotating amber lights that are activated at several stations along the pistol range.

The most astonishing was the one I witnessed a few years back when a man on a full pistol range with about 30 shooters just up and started walking out to get his target!

That is some serious tunnel vision!

theautobahn
April 29, 2012, 09:56 AM
I'm torn on this one. I can see the advantages of having an RO and lights and all the bells and whistles, but I honestly feel safer at the ranges I shoot at - although it's much less formal and low-tech, there's more communication (IMO) - I check with each shooter individually before going downrange (and of course my head is on a swivel as I do so, but it would be even at a policed range with an RO). As an added bonus, this results in better camaraderie between the members.

I don't want to get shot at the range, and I feel better about about taking my safety in my own hands rather than leaving it to a RO.

Sky
April 29, 2012, 10:07 AM
As an added bonus, this results in better camaraderie between the members.

That ^ always worked for us to but being a boarder state and having the feds come buy monthly it was suggested and it works for us with minimum cost and hassle.

We installed the lights because we do not have a range officer except when full auto or something like the .50 is being shot.

lilguy
April 29, 2012, 10:10 AM
I'm an RSO at our club, over 600 members, and that gentleman would be done shooting for the day. That's the reason I don't shoot at public/retail ranges. To much profit before safety. Like many things in life, you get away with it until you don't. Then all hell breaks loose.

bluetopper
April 29, 2012, 10:25 AM
There is no range officer at our range and we don't want one. There are no employees only elected volunteer officers, and one of them might show up once a week. All members get the combination to the gate with a membership.

I hope when I make a mistake it's not posted on the internet.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 10:40 AM
Maybe some hunters are a little more nonchalant. That would explain the Dick Cheney incidents.

NO! That does not explain the Dick Cheney incident. Yes there was a mistake made, yes bad things happened because of it. But accidents happen, to everyone, and happen every day.

None of us are perfect, and to imply that any of us can get thru life without having a screw-up is just ridiculous. Life is full of danger from the time the Dr. slaps us on the behind till the time we take our last breath.

Common sense folks should prevail. Frankly all of us are in much more danger driving to and from the range than any of the time spent there.

Poor analogy, but do you walk in front of your friends? When I hunted birds, everyone was aware of where everyone else was. We had specific fields of fire and no shooter was in-line/in-range of another shooter.

It is an excellent analogy actually. And by having specific fields of fire and no shooter in-line/in-range made it IMPOSSIBLE fir an accident to happen. Ya, Right!

There is an old saying the blank happens, and that holds true for every facet of life.

Manson
April 29, 2012, 11:03 AM
OK JC but what are you suggesting? How do we learn from our mistakes without consequences? One post mentioned just letting DUI's go if no one was hurt. I think drinking and driving demonstrates poor judgement. So does not being aware of a cold range.

Mistakes happen. But when a mistake endangers others there must be a response. Not to punish. More you made a mistake now I would like to give you some time to think about how to improve your focus.

ETA: Say what you like. I'm not bird hunting with Cheney.

Nushif
April 29, 2012, 11:06 AM
I don't think anyone here is saying he didn't need a timeout.

What we're saying is that posting on the internet, calling him names and questioning whether he should have 2A rights and his morality and then calling for a permanent removal from a club is excessive.

buck460XVR
April 29, 2012, 11:28 AM
I don't think anyone here is saying he didn't need a timeout.



Exactly. But nowhere did the OP say anyone there had the authority/power to give that timeout.


I'm an RSO at our club, over 600 members, and that gentleman would be done shooting for the day.

That sounds like the appropriate action to take. But as I alluded to in my first post relating this incident to group hunting, if this was a range where no one has the authority to FORCE the offender to leave, than all one can do is tongue whip them and watch their back. If there was someone there with that authority, it surprises me that the appropriate action was not taken. Again, we cannot expect others to always look out for us. Many here carry for SD because they claim they cannot count on the police to keep them safe. Same goes for ranges without a RO or other formal supervision. One must always cover their own backside and look out for others around them.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 11:30 AM
Nushif, a good post, and a reasonable response!

than all one can do is tongue whip them and watch their back.

Tactfully, without making an axx out of the offending party.

Also seems like we have a few here who wish to have a power trip.

gym
April 29, 2012, 11:32 AM
Most people are in their own world when they go to gun store ranges. You are on your own. I only use them when sighting in a new gun or function testing an old one. They all have those electric returns around here, so there is no need unless you drop a target off the clamp,to go any ware. And even if I drop one I would rather put a new one on than walk down that dark path with strangers holding guns in my direction.Even when you stop there is always a guy who is holding onto his gun. That's why I only go 5 or 6 times a year. If anyone knows a reasonable range in the Vero area, where they are more seasoned, please let me know. You can get killed in one of these places.

Blackstone
April 29, 2012, 11:59 AM
It's a serious safety breach. Take him to one side, explain that you have to send him home for the day, make sure he understands what he did wrong. No need to make an example out of him in front of the other members, because it would be more for your own satisfaction than anything else.

kb58
April 29, 2012, 12:17 PM
Wow this got long... I'm the OP.

A few more tidbits:
1. It was early, about 10 am, and there were only two ROs at the range and both had gone to check the other ranges, so they weren't present.
2. "Range Cold" was called and to be honest I can't swear whether he was at the bench when "cold" was called; I was reloading so I don't know if he "got the message." It's possible that he'd gone to his car to get something and didn't hear the command. If the other shooter calling for a cold range didn't at least make eye-contact with him (if he was present), then the blame shifts to everyone.
3. As said earlier he admitted to being hard of hearing and that's forgivable, given our sport.

What was shocking to me though is that the shooter to his left who had already reached his target had to be in the guy's field of view (these were pistols, not rifles with scopes.)

I agree that we all make mistakes, but firing when others are downrange has got to be near the top of the unforgivable list as far as situational awareness go, right next to holding your pistol sideways to set the safety, while sweeping everyone along the bench.

I think a couple days or weeks of suspension is a good compromise as it doesn't punish him forever for something he clearly enjoys, but it also gets the point across about keeping on-guard.

Anyhow, I just posted this as a reminder to us all that we always have to have the situational awareness to catch these things before they go terribly wrong, and thankfully someone did, this time.

BSA1
April 29, 2012, 12:44 PM
Well the way I see it five mistakes were made.

The first mistake was by the shooter who didn't hear the range command.

The other four were made by the shooters who went downrange without making sure the first shooter had heard the command and had cleared and grounded his gun.

I admit I don't like holy shirts...especially if it happens while I am wearing it. :eek:

EddieNFL
April 29, 2012, 01:02 PM
NO! That does not explain the Dick Cheney incident. Yes there was a mistake made, yes bad things happened because of it. But accidents happen, to everyone, and happen every day.

None of us are perfect, and to imply that any of us can get thru life without having a screw-up is just ridiculous. Life is full of danger from the time the Dr. slaps us on the behind till the time we take our last breath.

Common sense folks should prevail. Frankly all of us are in much more danger driving to and from the range than any of the time spent there.



It is an excellent analogy actually. And by having specific fields of fire and no shooter in-line/in-range made it IMPOSSIBLE fir an accident to happen. Ya, Right!

There is an old saying the blank happens, and that holds true for every facet of life.
You're right about one thing, people make mistakes and accidents happen. But, when someone makes a critical error with a firearm and another person is wounded, it's difficult to say "Opps, my bad," and just drive on.

You have a very casual attitude about safety, so let's both be happy we're on different ranges.

Manson
April 29, 2012, 01:28 PM
I don't think that anyone has a casual attitude about safety. I just think it's a difference of opinion on making the punishment fit the crime. If I had been there and the gentleman had been allowed to continue than I would have left.

My only real authority is limited to me.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 04:36 PM
You have a very casual attitude about safety,

You have no idea from personal experience about my attitude towards safety.

However I do realize there is such a thing as common sense that needs to be applied here and in most every situation involving our daily lives.

Ever go to a gun show and watch all the guns being pointed at others? Happens every weekend. We do not know as a positive whether the gentleman was in fact holding a loaded arm. I realize that doesn't excuse his actions but from his point of view it might.

None of us were there, none of us saw what actually happened, non of us even heard what was said or the tone of voice any of the remarks were made in.

Except for the OP of course.

I do believe tho we both should go on and be happy, I know I am!

coalman
April 29, 2012, 09:56 PM
Ever go to a gun show and watch all the guns being pointed at others? Happens every weekend...

Interesting comment about gun shows as there are many guns on tables pointed towards the aisles. Tied off or not they are pointed towards people, and many have actions closed (meaning you don't know if its clear). What's the difference whether its on the table or in someone's hand relative to a strict interpretion of muzzle discipline? I also know many-a gun shop that have muzzles pointed out in the cases, and these are untied with actions closed. Again, what's the difference? Fact is we all make "allowances" for muzzle discipline from time to time, habitually, situationally, purposefully, in error... whatever. But, we tend to notice it more when others do it, or make much more ado about it, than with ourselves IMO. No one is perfect and I'd look for a pattern if possible before rushing to judgement. I think the Bible has a story about throwing stones that may relate here....

kb58
April 29, 2012, 10:03 PM
... We do not know as a positive whether the gentleman was in fact holding a loaded arm.
It was, because when he went back to the bench after sitting it down due to being yelled at, it fired without rounds being added.

Not that it makes any difference, but it was some sort of black-powder cartridge wheel pistol. Made a heck of a boom and a big cloud of smoke, but that's neither here nor there.

kb58
April 29, 2012, 10:09 PM
Interesting comment about gun shows as there are many guns on tables pointed towards the aisles. Tied off or not they are pointed towards people, and many have actions closed (meaning you don't know if its clear). What's the difference whether its on the table or in someone's hand relative to a strict interpretion of muzzle discipline? I also know many-a gun shop that have muzzles pointed out in the cases, and these are untied with actions closed. Again, what's the difference? Fact is we all make "allowances" for muzzle discipline from time to time, habitually, situationally, purposefully, in error... whatever. But, we tend to notice it more when others do it, or make much more ado about it, than with ourselves IMO. No one is perfect and I'd look for a pattern if possible before rushing to judgement. I think the Bible has a story about throwing stones that may relate here....
No, I don't see the two situations as the same. In one case, presumably all firearms have been checked and cleared. There's probably literally a one in a million chance that it's loaded. In the other case, all the firearms present are probably loaded and all are being fired, and everyone knows that. There's no "might be" about it.

As far as throwing stones, nope, have to disagree there, too. I mean, seriously, how many have picked up a loaded gun and pointed it downrange while people are out there? You are implying that "everyone's done it at one time or another." I think not!

Quoheleth
April 29, 2012, 10:15 PM
To answer the original question of what happens in that scenario at the club/range I belong to:

The acting RSO takes the badge number and reports it to the president of the club via email or phone call.

That member is then called on the carpet before the board officers to explain the situation.

The board has the right to several disciplinary actions from temporary loss of privileges to full removal from the membership without ability to re-apply.

Q

Redlg155
April 29, 2012, 10:37 PM
A good range should have both audible and visual indicators to indicate hot and cold. The range I use makes use of flashing lights and a buzzer. No excuses that way.

JRH6856
April 29, 2012, 10:52 PM
What's the difference whether its on the table or in someone's hand relative to a strict interpretion of muzzle discipline?

The difference? I have NEVER seen a gun pull its own trigger.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 10:57 PM
No, I don't see the two situations as the same. In one case, presumably all firearms have been checked and cleared. There's probably literally a one in a million chance that it's loaded. In the other case, all the firearms present are probably loaded and all are being fired, and everyone knows that. There's no "might be" about it.


OK explain this

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_0416d7fa-4393-11e0-9cee-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/police-man-accidentally-shoots-self_n_1256874.html

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28125182/detail.html

Looks like the 2 situations are pretty much the same.

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 10:58 PM
The difference? I have NEVER seen a gun pull its own trigger.


But I have seen a lot of folks pull the trigger at a gun show!

jcwit
April 29, 2012, 11:02 PM
As far as throwing stones, nope, have to disagree there, too. I mean, seriously, how many have picked up a loaded gun and pointed it downrange while people are out there? You are implying that "everyone's done it at one time or another." I think not!

No, I sure the meaning is that have you have never made a mistake. We all know the story referred to as stone throwing, and in the original case I find it hard that those that wished to start throwing stones were guilty of being prostitutes.

opsman
April 30, 2012, 12:04 AM
This is unfortunately an all to often occurring event at ranges all over. The local range here is awful about having an one RSO on the range at all. More often than not the Owner/operator comes out of the store yells cease fire, makes sure people are clear then goes back inside, a few minutes later comes out and starts the line up again. For years it was the only range within miles so in order to shoot at a range we put up with it. Now there is another range within distance and I am happy to say they do things right, not only do they have a dedicated RSO but two on duty one on each end of the line. I feel much more safer at that range and they will be getting my business, it's worth the drive.

JRH6856
April 30, 2012, 12:59 AM
But I have seen a lot of folks pull the trigger at a gun show!

So have I. I've done it myself (after checking the chamber) but the question was what is the difference between a gun on the table and one in the hand.

Of course, a lot of those guns on the table are linked together with a security cable. And when someone picks up one gun, it can look like he is running a trot line. And then the cable separates and guns go everywhere. :eek:

thump_rrr
April 30, 2012, 06:21 PM
I'm a member at 2 different ranges.
The indoor range has your standard cease fire line which everyone must stand behind during a cease fire.
Normally nobody needs to go downrange since the target stands are motorized.
The outdoor range has a nylon rope behind each station which gets clipped across the cease fire line when people are walking out ahead of the firing line.
This keeps people away from the firearms while people are retreiving or checking targets.

I've only had to yell at one person this year at the indoor range.
Rules state that all firearms must point downrange at all times and that cases must be brought to the bench to store a firearm.
This young guy was about to turn around and sweep half the line with his rifle when I yelled at him to point it back downrange.
He then mentioned that he was only bringing it to his case to store it.
I told him to bring the case to the bench to store it.

45_auto
April 30, 2012, 06:25 PM
This young guy was about to turn around and sweep half the line with his rifle when I yelled at him to point it back downrange.

There is NO TOLERANCE for even possibly not being safe. Ban him from shooting for life!

EddieNFL
April 30, 2012, 06:30 PM
The horse is dead. Some believe in strict safety rules, others not so much. No minds are going to be changed. Moral is, "Watch your six."

jcwit
April 30, 2012, 10:15 PM
I agree with Eddie, this horse is dead, dead, dead.

But!

There is NO TOLERANCE for even possibly not being safe. Ban him from shooting for life!

If we take this stance, then whenever anyone screws up there will be NO SHOOTING SPORTS, shortly. But to those who consider themselves perfect watch out when you do stumble.

He who never makes a mistake has never done much, and never will. Even A.J. Foyt finally ran into the wall.

beatledog7
April 30, 2012, 11:08 PM
Some believe in strict safety rules, others not so much.

I was going to stay out this, but reading these words, I can't.

We clearly all believe in the rules and follow them as best we can, so this is not a fair statement.

However, it would be fair to say that regarding application: some of us are idealistic; some are realistic.

orionengnr
April 30, 2012, 11:09 PM
This thread has been very illustrative of the range of views that exist on any given subject...Here in Texas, several times per year some mom leaves her kid in a car and the kid bakes to death. Most often, no charges are brought because "she has suffered enough already". I find this line of reasoning insane.

I do not mean to equate the two circumstances, but...if an action has no consequences, there is very seldom any learning gained from the experience.

Some of my best-learned lessons have come as a result of some harsh consequences. When I started shooting, I knew nothing, the Four Rules had yet to be invented, and the Internet was a distant twinkle in Al Gore's eye.

I got barked at pretty hard a time or two for some fairly minor transgressions...but I never repeated them. A bruised ego is a small price to pay for a life lesson.

"A lesson learned hard is learned well."

xxjumbojimboxx
May 1, 2012, 12:12 AM
I live in austin TX, a few miles north of here youll find a range called Eagle Peak, its a nice place to shoot, everythings real cheap, but when you hear about the RO's poeple around here will tell you "Those guys are *******s!"... I agree that sometimes those fella's come off as a little bit abrasive, but it's their job. Ive been yelled at twice while I was there... Once was for a stupid particular rule of the range, The other time I was instruction some friends on how to load my mossburg pump, not realizing it, as I was trying to give my friends a good view of what i was doing,Ii had that gun pointed right at a different group. I know I know, ALWAYS keep the gun pointed down range, but sometimes we forget, and mess up, and so on. I like that those guys scream at poeple.

drsfmd
May 1, 2012, 09:42 AM
3. As said earlier he admitted to being hard of hearing and that's forgivable, given our sport.

There are lots of reasons why people become hard of hearing... shooting shouldn't be one of them. There's absolutely no excuse for not wearing plugs or muff (or both!) while shooting.

45_auto
May 1, 2012, 10:16 AM
There's absolutely no excuse for not wearing plugs or muff (or both!) while shooting.

Never saw anyone wearing plugs or muffs on patrol. When you were in the military how did you get the enemy to give you advance warning of when they were going to attack so you could put your muffs and plugs on before all the shooting started?

gym
May 1, 2012, 10:21 AM
Outdoors is more forgiving. A-44 mag next to you in a small concrete room, is a bit different. Plus a lot of servicemen got a great deal of hearing loss.

kb58
May 1, 2012, 12:00 PM
I always wondered that about the WWII vets, amazed that they aren't all deaf. My dad has constant ringing in his ears due to a German rail-gun shell going off nearby :/

Ryanxia
May 1, 2012, 01:03 PM
Good thing no one was hurt.

BSA1
May 1, 2012, 02:00 PM
I’ll ask this question again so no one will answer; What punishment should the four shooters that went downrange receive?

Apparently no one here is a truck driver and has had to deal with a company safety officer after being involved in a accident. Let’s try this scenario:

I am driving my rig and a drunk driver runs a stop light and hits me. Clear cut case right…drunk at fault…not so fast maybe not.

The first thing is I am required to submit to a blood and alcohol test. I have no choice.
Then they are going to inspect my daily log and make sure it is up to date and I am in compliance.
Then my D.L. is going to get check to make sure I have the proper endorsements.
Then my entire rig is going to get inspected…water in brake lines, tread depth, brakes, slack adjusters, shocks, springs, weight and on and on.
My failure in any of those areas will cause part of the accident will be assigned to me. Let’s say my tires and treads fail to pass inspection then the entire accident could be my fault if the inspector feels I could have stopped in time and avoided the accident altogether if my vehicle had been in proper condition.
Or here is another one it would be my fault if I was driving on a road restricted to truck traffic. If I had not been there then the accident would not have occurred.

Or look at this way…do you look both ways before crossing the street when the crosswalk light is on? Why should you? After all everyone obeys traffic lights right?

The four shooters failed to make sure the line was clear before they went downrange. If they had the incident would have never happened.

rajb123
May 1, 2012, 02:12 PM
In my lifetime, I have seen this more than once. I don't think it is that rare.

How many times had the offender been at this range? The bad hearing excuss is lame.

Yukonstorm
May 1, 2012, 03:09 PM
The person should be banned from the range. Its not a mistake, its carelessness. There's no room for that when at a range.

welldoya
May 1, 2012, 03:50 PM
At the range that I go to, the range master calls for a cease fire and everybody puts there handguns down on the bench. Everybody backs away from the bench and he puts up a rope. You can't go past the rope back to the bench until he drops the rope. That only happens after everybody is back from downrange and the commence fire command is given.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 04:15 PM
In my lifetime, I have seen this more than once. I don't think it is that rare.

How many times had the offender been at this range? The bad hearing excuss is lame.

We have no idea, for all we know this was his first time there.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 04:20 PM
The person should be banned from the range. Its not a mistake, its carelessness. There's no room for that when at a range.

Do you feel the same way about mistakes and/or mishaps while driving a 2,000 lb vehicle.

In reality mistakes happen, we do not live in a perfect world, some may think they do, but the fact is they're only fooling themselves.

B!ngo
May 1, 2012, 04:27 PM
Come on, guys, this could have ended very differently. Safety is something you NEVER let up on, unless you're prepared to accept the consequences of an accident. Me, I'm not.

How about telling the offender he's done for the day, but he can return at a later date. That's for the first time. IF there's ever a second time, he's done forever at that range. Fair? That should make a good impression on the offender, but allow him to learn from his mistake. If he doesn't learn, too bad.
Yep, I completely agree. As egregious a violation of safety and policy as this was, mistakes do happen. Very fortunately, no one was injured or worse.
I would send him home for sure, if only because he is rattled by the transgression and should not be shooting. Also give him more time to think about it all. Would also have a chat with him before he leaves to be sure he is rattled. If he's not, I'd worry about allowing him to return at all. Also worth checking to know if his disability requires some form of accommodation if possible before he shoots again.
But yea, lighten up. Handling these situations with some grace is a sign of a civilized society.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 04:57 PM
The four shooters failed to make sure the line was clear before they went downrange. If they had the incident would have never happened.

Called the range cold, four people walked out to their targets.
Looked over and one guy went back to the bench, picked his pistol up

Yeah, I guess they should be banned for not reading the guy's mind.

Do you feel the same way about mistakes and/or mishaps while driving a 2,000 lb vehicle.

Well, try this: Next time a cop stops you for whatever violation, tell him no one was hurt and drive on. Report back when you can.

BSA1
May 1, 2012, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I guess they should be banned for not reading the guy's mind

No, not read his mind but waited until they visually saw him acknowledged the cease fire command. When I am on my club's range I wait until I am sure everyone on the line has cleared their guns and stepped away from the bench.

Oh, the police do give verbal warnings for traffic offenses in some areas of the country.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 05:29 PM
No, not read his mind but waited until they visually saw him acknowledged the cease fire command. When I am on my club's range I wait until I am sure everyone on the line has cleared their guns and stepped away from the bench.

Well, let's assume his vacating the bench did not mean he understood, what excuse do you offer for his failure to recognize the individuals downrange were live humans and not just targets? At my range we ensure the range is clear before picking up a firearm...and we don't blame individual mistakes on other shooters.

Oh, the police do give verbal warnings for traffic offenses in some areas of the country.

So give my suggestion a try. Keep us posted.

BSA1
May 1, 2012, 05:46 PM
Well, let's assume his vacating the bench did not mean he understood, what excuse do you offer for his failure to recognize the individuals downrange were live humans and not just targets? At my range we ensure the range is clear before picking up a firearm...and we don't blame individual mistakes on other shooters.

Exactly. There has been nothing posted that the other four shooters ensured the range was clear before going downrange.

In your Post 89 you commented on strict enforcement of range rules. This should be by all parties involved.

Please reread my Post 99. I feel all five shooters contributed to the incident.


Oh, the police do give verbal warnings for traffic offenses in some areas of the country.

So give my suggestion a try. Keep us posted.

All I can say is you are unfortunate that the police in your community do not give warnings. I've got a warning ticket stuck in the glovebox from last time I was stopped.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 05:54 PM
In your Post 89 you commented on strict enforcement of range rules. This should be by all parties involved.

Please reread my Post 99. I feel all five shooters contributed to the incident.

If the shooters walked downrange before the range was declared cold, I agree. Unless the OP is fudging the details, that is not the case. If the RO declared the range cold and it was not, he should be disciplined. In the past I have suspended one person for walking forward of the line while declared hot and stripped an RO of his responsibilities for not following procedures...the shooter still retains final responsibility for his actions.

I've got a warning ticket stuck in the glovebox from last time I was stopped.

Informative.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 05:57 PM
Well, try this: Next time a cop stops you for whatever violation, tell him no one was hurt and drive on. Report back when you can.

Only ever had 2 tickets in my 68 years, and they never involved another driver or pedestrian, and have never been banned from driving, for any length of time, not even close. Plus up until my retirement I normally drove 30,000 to 50,000 miles per year.

Hope that clarifies it.

As I stated, we do not live in a perfect world, whether one wishes to believe it or not.

Screw-ups happen.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 06:12 PM
As I stated, we do not live in a perfect world, whether one wishes to believe it or not.

An imperfect world doesn't give anyone a free pass.

When you were issued the two tickets was a fine assessed?

I have no problem with verbal warnings IF the situation warrants such. This event called for something a little stronger. Locally, 30 day suspension and meet the BoD. Some clubs have different standards.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 06:26 PM
When you were issued the two tickets was a fine assessed?

In one case it was a warning, in the other, yes I paid the fine. But in neither was I banned from driving as many wish to ban this gentleman for screwing- up and totally removing hiom from the shooting sports.

I have no problem with verbal warnings IF the situation warrants such. This event called for something a little stronger. Locally, 30 day suspension and meet the BoD. Some clubs have different standards.

You have no idea if a 30 day suspension is warranted or not, unless of course you were there, which you were not. You're dealing with supposition only.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 06:38 PM
You have no idea if a 30 day suspension is warranted or not, unless of course you were there, which you were not. You're dealing with supposition only.

With the information available, a suspension is warrantied.

I have not mentioned a ban, but I have been involved with banning several individuals from our range. None of them were banned from the shooting sports. They are free to endanger folks elsewhere.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 06:46 PM
With the information available, a suspension is warrantied.

As I stated, pure supposition.

Judge, Jury, Hangman, all rolled into one.

spaniel
May 1, 2012, 07:00 PM
"totally removing him from the shooting sports."

A wee bit overly dramatic, are we not? The 2nd Amendment does not give you the right to use a specific range. That is a priviledge. Being suspended or banned from a single range is hardly an infringement of "rights", much less "totally removing him from the shooting sports".

At the public range I used to shoot at, what he did would have immediately gotten him ejected. More minor infractions would have gotten a verbal warning.

At my private range where I now do all of my shooting, things are more controlled and individually observed so it likely would have gotten some stern words and probably not invited back.

As for the auto analogy, 1) it is a poor one for several reasons, and 2) we should be a lot harder on people that we are.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 07:13 PM
1) it is a poor one for several reasons,

That is your opinion.

2) we should be a lot harder on people that we are.

Possibly, depending on the infraction.

"totally removing him from the shooting sports."

A wee bit overly dramatic, are we not? The 2nd Amendment does not give you the right to use a specific range. That is a priviledge. Being suspended or banned from a single range is hardly an infringement of "rights", much less "totally removing him from the shooting sports".

Well It wasn't my idea or my post that stated this, being dramatic or not, check out post # 88

There is NO TOLERANCE for even possibly not being safe. Ban him from shooting for life!

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 07:15 PM
A wee bit overly dramatic, are we not?

Everyone's good at something. Me? I'm a great judge, jury and executioner...and at my range, I have that authority.

larryh1108
May 1, 2012, 07:17 PM
Me? I'm a great judge, jury and executioner.

You do sound like a legend.... in your own mind!

:rolleyes:

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 07:23 PM
You do sound like a legend.... in your own mind!

:rolleyes:
That's original. Got any more?

larryh1108
May 1, 2012, 07:30 PM
Nah, it looks like you got a handle on everything.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2012, 07:34 PM
Thanks. Carry on.

Onward Allusion
May 1, 2012, 07:37 PM
People make mistakes and I would have sent him home for the day. No tearing of any new ones needed. Definitely a write-up event, but he would be allowed to come back another day.

Yarddog
May 1, 2012, 08:10 PM
When range I use to go to before I got a exclusive club membership, Under 7
indaviduals. We Hollered COLD & waited till we got a Cold from EVERYONE on the line, Untill then no one in front of line bar non.

Glad I don't got to deal with the public on range I go to now,, I feel much better. Only members I run into don't shoot much at all, So all in all I'm happy
To each his own.

I feel for those guys that have to ride very far just to shoot, Me 10 min & I'm set up & shooting. Stay safe watch everyone and anyone JMO ; )
Y/D

kb58
May 1, 2012, 09:16 PM
Gads, my thread was more of an FYI to watch your back, and has grown into a monster.

Okay, last post for me. When the range was called cold, everyone did put down their firearms and did back away from the bench. What "may" have happened was that the shooter in question had gone to his car for something and came back. I saw things starting at the point where he was walking toward the bench, picked up the pistol and aimed it downrange - hence the yelling. So it is possible that he didn't hear the "cold" command if he wasn't in the area (or even if he was.) But then we're right back to him observing his target that's next to a person with his back to him.

Anyway, this thread has gotten the message across to always be aware of those around you at the range (this was at a private range BTW.)

I'm out.

buck460XVR
May 1, 2012, 10:33 PM
Everyone's good at something. Me? I'm a great judge, jury and executioner...and at my range, I have that authority.


Kinda reminds me of this guy.............http://blogbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/be-the-authority.jpg

larryh1108
May 1, 2012, 10:37 PM
We should name him Alexander Haig aka "I'm in Charge" Haig. Let's see how many remember that great line.

Yukonstorm
May 1, 2012, 11:05 PM
Tell me how you would feel with another shooter, injured, or dead.

jcwit
May 1, 2012, 11:22 PM
More than a little hard to say, I have never been put into that position. I could surmise but that may all change in the reality of it all.

So my final answer is "I have no idea". I pray I may never have the need to find out.

Flopsweat
May 2, 2012, 05:58 AM
KB is right - this thread is getting out of hand. For those of you who are not an RSO, we will occasionally seem a bit cocky. Some of us even are. I, and a select few others at my range, have the "authoritah" to temporarily revoke an offender's membership pending a board review. I've never used it, and am not aware of anyone in the club having done so. I have, however, spoken sharply to a few people. In each case the conversation ended amicably. It's not about ego - mine or the offender's - it's about safety. Keep up the sniping and we'll get to watch a moderator demonstrate a practical application of the difference between ego and authority.

45_auto
May 2, 2012, 06:37 AM
It's not about ego - mine or the offender's - it's about safety.

Unfortunately, many times it IS about ego. RO's are people just like everyone else. Safety is only an excuse. It seems that many people who become RO's feel that they have to play politics or demonstrate their "power" or false knowledge. In the 7 years that I ran a private range I had more problems with RO's making bad decisions and unsafe decisions than I did with regular members.

drsfmd
May 2, 2012, 10:30 AM
I, and a select few others at my range, have the "authoritah" to temporarily revoke an offender's membership pending a board review. I've never used it, and am not aware of anyone in the club having done so.

I've been an RSO for the better part of a decade, and the Chief RSO for the last 4 years. In that time, I've "pulled cards" on probably 10 people who had to go to a board review. In all but one of those cases, the board dismissed the members and declared the persona non grata and ineligible to ever reapply for membership. The other case... he was forced to attend new member orientation again (after being a member for 15 years) and permanently lost access to our indoor range.

It's not easy policing idiots who don't want to follow the rules or have such serious lapses of judgement that they simply can't be welcome as a part of the organization.

Edit: I should also point out that we're a club of just under 2,000 members, so pulling 10 cards is really an insignificant percentage of the membership.

EddieNFL
May 2, 2012, 02:00 PM
Kinda reminds me of this guy.............http://blogbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/be-the-authority.jpg
Amazing likeness, but I am a bit taller.

We should name him Alexander Haig aka "I'm in Charge" Haig. Let's see how many remember that great line.

I've always though of myself as a Cap Weinberger type.

Got any fresh material?

Flopsweat
May 3, 2012, 02:54 AM
I've been an RSO for the better part of a decade, and the Chief RSO for the last 4 years. In that time, I've "pulled cards" on probably 10 people who had to go to a board review. In all but one of those cases, the board dismissed the members and declared the persona non grata and ineligible to ever reapply for membership. The other case... he was forced to attend new member orientation again (after being a member for 15 years) and permanently lost access to our indoor range.

It's not easy policing idiots who don't want to follow the rules or have such serious lapses of judgement that they simply can't be welcome as a part of the organization.

Edit: I should also point out that we're a club of just under 2,000 members, so pulling 10 cards is really an insignificant percentage of the membership.
To be fair, your range is considerably larger than ours. And I should have said that I'm not aware of a ban since I've been a member. I'm sure it's happened more that once in the history of the club.

If you enjoyed reading about "Another gun range mistake" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!