[Nightcrawler]

Okay, here's a thought. What if firearms laws didn't conflict with this, and Nightcrawler Tactical offered the following:

THUMPER CARBINE

-Semiautomatic Carbine
-All Steel Folding Stock with rubber recoil pad
-10" Barrel, with threaded, removable flashhider
-Integral suppression available
-Ghost Ring Sights
-20 round detachable box magazines, all steel
-Ambidextrious controls
-Optics mount available
-Calibers:
.44 Magnum (curved magazine to accomodate rimmed cartridge)
.50AE
.440 Cor-Bon
-Receiver all steel, hardened and strengthened to handle the hotloads. The Thumper carbine is easily as strong as a modern levergun or big-bore revolver.

-Coming Soon: Super Thumper in .500 S&W Magnum

Any takers, if you could get one? I think it'd be pretty cool, myself. :D

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Isn't this Jeff Cooper's pet idea before the Scout? I thought he was initially considering .44 AutoMag for the chambering.

It was his concept for a close-range infantry weapon instead of the .223 based platform which he was disdainful at the time of this conception.

I suppose I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on it. I have plenty of other things that fill any need I have at this time, but thanks for asking.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Nightcrawler]

I suppose I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on it. I have plenty of other things that fill any need I have at this time, but thanks for asking.

:scrutiny:

Um...you're welcome, I guess. I'd only like to add that I've never once "needed" any gun in my collection, nor was I suggesting any particular use for this type of weapon. I certainly don't want this whimsical little thread to turn into some big argument, with all of the AR-15 guys yelling at me for suggesting this rifle be issued to our troops instead of M4 carbines, because I made no such insinuation (though often, whether you made the insinuation or not doesn't matter).

The question stands: Who'd buy one of these if you could, for whatever reason? Plinking, target shooting, fending off an attack by a squad of ninja bears, whatever. :D

Personally, I've just got the itch for a big-bore semiauto carbine with a 20-round magazine. I'd really like one in .45-70, too. :cool:

[Brian Williams]

I'd take one in 45 Colt.... smaller rim than the 43 mag. I would like one in 357 also....

[Nightcrawler]

.45 Colt would indeed be cool, as would .41 Magnum.

The only potential problem I can see with .45 Colt is reliability issues. People would try to fire the light-loaded cowboy stuff through the Thumper, and these might not generate enough pressure to kick that gas piston back.

A .357 is doable, though you lose the "big bore" definition. Still, the .357 would have 30 round magazines. (25 for .41 Magnum) :cool:

[MLC]

You could go so far as to use cut down 308 cases ala 44 automag.
That would make magazines easier and peraps more compact.
I'd love a big bore carbine.
Preferably in 44 as the 50's have low SD.

[MikeB]

If this is gas operated, I believe you could put an adjustment on it to deal with the variations of the .45 colt loaded between light cowboy and full house hotter than .44 mag.

[iamkris]

Could you just base this off of a Ruger Deerslayer 44 Mag carbine? Would require a new mag design to accomodate the capacity requirements. Ambi controls would have to be crafted as well.

[Jim Watson]

There was once an outfit converting M1 Carbines to .45 Win Mag.
Cut one down to 11 inch "adviser" barrel length and put it in a M1A1 paratrooper folding stock and you would be close to Thumper, probably a little heavy. Unfortunately, the conversions did not have a lot of operating reserve or safety margin and were reported to be both picky on ammo and prone to blow up every once in a while.

It could probably be done on an AR platform but you would have to use good quality lightweight materials, a slender barrel, and resist the temptation to hang all the bells and whistles on it that add weight.

A Mech-Tech carbine conversion in 10mm or .45 Super would be close in size but would probably not have capability of a power increase in its blowback action.

I once read of a box magazine conversion to the original Ruger .44 carbine, but nothing ever came of it.

[Dave Markowitz]

That "Thumper" would indeed be a neat gun. I'd want mine in 10mm though.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

heeheehee...

Nightcrawler, we're of a like mind here, my friend...I, too can eventually justify (at least to myself :) ) all the toys I want/need/have...I just didn't want it to look like a flame thread about '.223 being inferior as an infantry/ninja bear/rabid chipmunk weapon'. Honestly, I thought way back when I read about a .44 caliber selective fire like you've described so eloquently as a possibility for troops that it did make pretty good sense, especially if you considered it as an issue item to second line and non-front line troops such as was the intent of the M1 Carbine.

I bet for that matter it'd have made plenty of sense as an entry weapon or backup weapon in Afghanistan to lots of the guys there. I strongly believe that all our folks should have exactly what they want and need when they need it...inventory and logisitcal red tape be damned.

Ruger seems to be having some modest success with their .44 carbines. Harden the concept up a bit and I bet it'd make a fine milspec weapon that Aberdeen would smile on.

BTW, I am on my 4th AR...a 6700 Comp HBAR. I like .223 just fine, but if I were going to the line I believe I'd lots rather have something more...say, in the range between my FAL to a Solothurn 20mm. I'm not as fast as I used to be on my feet and I'll take a high position and hang back a bit, thanks. Just leave me a wagon to haul all my stuff in and I'll be fine and cover y'all from here.:D

Regards,
Rabbit.

[444]

"It could probably be done on an AR platform but you would have to use good quality lightweight materials, a slender barrel, and resist the temptation to hang all the bells and whistles on it that add weight."

I have one. Although it is significantly more potent than what is being described here since it isn't a handgun cartridge. It uses a standard AR lower, and standard AR magazines. It is chambered for .458 Socom.

[Nightcrawler]

And .458 Socom is ballistically very similar to .45-70.

But, just for sake of ammo availability (for the civilian shooter), I'd prefer a more commonly available cartridge.

I'd really like a semiauto RPK (Like the Molot Vepr rifle) in .45-70. I've heard that some people have converted the .410 bore Saiga shotguns to .45-70, but I don't know for sure.

[444]

"But, just for sake of ammo availability (for the civilian shooter), I'd prefer a more commonly available cartridge."

I haven't kept up with this cartridge, but at the time I bought my upper the brass was VERY expensive and VERY hard to get. It is a handloading only cartridge although Cor-Bon was supposed to come out with a factory load (don't know if they ever did).
It is certainly not mainstream.

[keano44]

How funny to run across this thread just now. Fifteen minutes ago, while driving back to work from lunch, I was thinking about something very similar. With all the short magnums out recently, I have been wondering when we will see the short, fat cases being blown out to take the .40, .41, .44, .45's, in handy rifles. What "Thumper's" they would be! It seems that pistol cartridge lever rifles are more popular everyday, by reading the posts here on THR. The short magnum big bores would be a step up in performance, and could be offered in other-than-lever-type rifles. Would they sell?

[Jim Watson]

No, no, no, Rabbit;
The Cooper Thumper is NOT to be selective fire. It is to be a semiauto submachine gun replacement with good enough sights and trigger for you to put one big bullet on an enemy at reasonable range and move along.

444
I had thought of the Socom (and Beowulf) but decided not to stir the pot. They are rifle rounds not Thumper cartridges.

Night,
Ammo availability is your problem. High capacity magazines for rimmed revolver ammo would be a considerable challenge. There aren't many rimless ones except the .50 AE, .45 Win Mag, and a chance of resurecting the .44 Automag. It is unrealistic to expect a new cartridge devised for the project to be immediately available in plinking quantitiy and price.

[Nightcrawler]

.45 Win Mag would probably be ideal for this, since it's still made by several companies and is a rimless cartridge.

[George Hill]

Put me down for one in .44 Magnum. Thanks.

[MagKnightX]

Well, I'd kind of like an FA version, but semi-only would do...

[Amish_Bill]

I could probably be convinced to get a .44

....
....
....

:evil:

[Onslaught]

I've thought several times that I'd love to have an AR-15 in .44 magnum.

So yeah, I'd want 2.... even if it DID comply with all existing laws, I'd still want one for the features left over. And if the AWB sunsets, even better still!

So, since those OTHER laws won't be going anywhere, how 'bout a version for the rest of us like so....

-Semiautomatic Carbine
-All Steel Folding Stock with rubber recoil pad (assuming AWB sunset)
-16.1" Barrel, with threaded, removable flashhider (assuming AWB sunset)
-Ghost Ring Sights
-20 round detachable box magazines, all steel (assuming AWB sunset)
-Ambidextrious controls :D
-Optics mount available

[jercamp45]

My first center fire was a Ruger .44 carbine, way back when.
Thinking that the HK UMP either in 10 mm or converted to shoot 460 Rowland rounds should do nicely in this roll. Rails to 'accessorize', suppression capable, reliable, accurate, light. That is what I'd like as my ultimate thumper...a lightweight with alot of thump. I would definately go for the 460 myself as I could drop in a conversion unit in one of my 1911's and have som ammo compatability.
I am really liking what I read on the .458 SOCOM too! Though a rifle round it tis! It is serious thump, accessorisable in the extreme and not too heavy.
Jercamp45

[Kestrel]

I would love to have something as handy as an M1 Carbine, but in a more powerful caliber.

[TonyRumore]

I built four AR-15's chambered in 44 Rem Mag back in 1999, but discontinued them after problems with the Desert Eagle magazines that I was using. I also did one in 44 AutoMag. I have built about 200ea 50AE uppers/rifles and it's hard to beat. Great accuracy, plenty of thump, 14rd mag capacity, and very reliable. I also chambered an M1 Carbine in 502 Thunder Sabre.

I built one AR in .475 Tremor, a few in 440 CorBon and .458 SOCOM, as well as a couple of AK's in .458 SOCOM.

After building all this junk, I think the AR in 50AE is still king of the close range big bores. It doesn't do everything the best, but it's a solid performer and ammo is available off the shelf.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

[yayarx7]

What about basing it on the FAL platform. You could use its gas adjustment system. Shorten the overall length of the reciever for smaller mags.

Someone is thinking of doing this with many different calibers over at the FAL files.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90487&highlight=Suomi

Here is one in 50 Beowulf and 10mm
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101418

[yayarx7]

Oh yeah, and I want one.

[Secmat]

A friend that I shoot with is the consumate tinkerer. We were both shooting Win. 94s and we came to the conclusion that a little carbine like my Trapper in .357 or .44 but with a semi-auto action would be a neat little beast. My friend has now purchased a few older 94s to see if it can be done.:rolleyes: The idea of a small tube fed semi-auto bullet launcher is interesting, but doesn't look doable.

[archy]

No, no, no, Rabbit;
The Cooper Thumper is NOT to be selective fire. It is to be a semiauto submachine gun replacement with good enough sights and trigger for you to put one big bullet on an enemy at reasonable range and move along.

444
I had thought of the Socom (and Beowulf) but decided not to stir the pot. They are rifle rounds not Thumper cartridges.

Night,
Ammo availability is your problem. High capacity magazines for rimmed revolver ammo would be a considerable challenge. There aren't many rimless ones except the .50 AE, .45 Win Mag, and a chance of resurecting the .44 Automag. It is unrealistic to expect a new cartridge devised for the project to be immediately available in plinking quantitiy and price.



Who says it has to be rimless? While the difficulties of box magazine feed with a rimmed cartridge are legion when used in a design originally developed for rimless cartridges, if meant for a rimmed number from the outset, there shouldn't be a problem, though one possible direction does suggest a rimless case as being worth investigating.

But the magazine feed ststems of the .38 special Hill submachinegun or the Calico M900 should be considered, as should the dual feed tubes of Tony Neophytou's Neostead shotgun design also offer an interesting possibility.

An interesting starting place? The new S&W .500 magnum revolver cartridge. And the rim diameter is close enough for possible use of a semiauto Saiga .410 Kalishnikov shotgun receiver, fed from a box magazine....

http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410s-sm.jpg

[archy]

A friend that I shoot with is the consumate tinkerer. We were both shooting Win. 94s and we came to the conclusion that a little carbine like my Trapper in .357 or .44 but with a semi-auto action would be a neat little beast. My friend has now purchased a few older 94s to see if it can be done. The idea of a small tube fed semi-auto bullet launcher is interesting, but doesn't look doable.

You and your friend might find it interesting to note that the bolt face diameter of a Winchester 94 in .30-30 is very close to that of the new rimless 6,8mm SOCOM rifle/carbine cartridge, much shorter than the .30-30, but not suitable with a pointed military bullet in the tubular feed magazine of the Winchester.

But opening up the neck of that 6,8x43 mm cartridge to a flat-pointed heavy 10mm bullet or so might just work as a very credible thumper cartridge on the lighter side of the thumper spectrum. Incidentally, a 7,62x39mm Kalishnikov, opened up to 10mm also works, though a bit short to develop the velocity required to keep the trajectory reasonably flat.

But possibilities based on the '94 action abound....

[yayarx7]

What about starting with the Ruger 99/44.

I do not know much about the platform but if it is as easy to manipulate as the 10/22 you might have a good starting point for a .44mag thumper.

[yayarx7]

Quick Photochop.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=812073

[DakotaSig]

If'n Y'all want a REAL thumper, check this out:

http://floridasurffishing.net/pics//DixieTerminatorjpg.jpg
:D :D :D

This is a new slug James Gates is developing.
He talks about it here:12 gauge Dixie Terminator Slug/Bullet (http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=6830&page=1&pp=15)

Some more discussion here too:Here's the forum where I got the photo (http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=8945)

[archy]

I do not know much about the platform but if it is as easy to manipulate as the 10/22 you might have a good starting point for a .44mag thumper.

I'm sort of coming around to the idea that the new S&W .500 revolver cartridge might be an interesting chambering for *project thumper.* The rim isn't necessarily as problematic as it might seem, as per the older Ruger .44 Magnum Deerslayer and the current .44 carbine. Or the ols .44 Auto Mag and Desert Eagle handguns, so far as that goes.

My tendency is to build up a singleshot first- maybe a TC Contender or Encore- to determine the most suitable barrel length/bullet weights and some groundwork ballistics. Then from there the project can be expanded if no dead ends are encountered.