[blarby]

This question relates to pistol safety and handling. I'm sure there'll be flaming, Ive got the extinguisher handy.

As we all know, muzzles must always be pointed in a safe direction.

When handling pistols, I can see the danger in mindlessly holding the muzzle in a downward position flopping it about willy nilly whilst walking around at your range or shooting pit. "Dangling" as I've heard it referred ... obviously its not always pointing directly down.

My question relates to purposefully and with intent pointing in a downward position when moving. "Danger down" as i've heard it referred : Is this a no-no ?

Here's one example :

I fire 6 shots from my revolver at a target ( we'll say its a gravel-pit type range ) 15 yards down range. I want to go check my scoring. I point the pistol muzzle down one handed (finger off the trigger) while walking to and retrieving my target, and walking back to my "firing line".

Here's another example :

I fire 3 shots from an autoloading pistol. I would like to take another three shots at my target, but from a position approximately 10 feet from my current one. Should I walk gun at full extension in a shooting position, eyes forward- or would it be acceptable to point muzzle down, so I can observe where I'm placing my footing ?


Ok , so there it is. Please let me know whats up.


I mainly ask this as I have not yet found a holster I find comfortable for my new revolver, and am having trouble doing so.

The other option at present would be placing the revolver back in its box, and retrieving it after the walk. Obviously, this really does not apply to example #2

MODS :If this thread is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it !

[pendennis]

First, never carry any firearm "down range". The weapon should be cleared, the shooting line must be made "cold" (everyone unloads, slides back and locked, magazines removed; revolver cylinders or loading gates open, and chambers empty). Everyone stays away from the firing line, and weapons are not touched while there are folks down range checking targets.

For the semi-auto, see above. Never step over the firing line, until it is clear.

At our club, what you described doing would get your range privileges suspended for 30 days.

[blarby]

Ok, for clarification : This isn't a public or private range, but I do see your advice.

If this were s "formal" shooting area, the firing lines would be defined, and there wouldn't be any movement at all, really.

[sirsloop]

guns do not go forward of the firing line, plain and simple. No reason to take a gun with you to check your targets unless you are expecting to get attacked by a wild beast while you are down there (sarcasm).

-clear range
-go hot
-shoot
-cease fire
-clear and table all firearms (all actions open pointed down range)
-range cold
-go check targets
-repeat

As for dangling a loaded gun, yes I think it is definitely dangerous! If the gun happens to discharge and hit a stone or something the splatter could easily ricochet and seriously wound you. That is if you don't straight shoot your foot or leg. I see tons of youtube videos with <deleted> handing firearms like they are in a movie. Go watch some high level USPSA and/or IDPA videos and that is probably how you should be handing your firearm. I can't imagine my 500S&W TC Encore discharging while pointed directly at my feet!! The muzzle fireball alone would set my clothing/hair on fire!! HAH!

[blarby]

Not exactly sarcasm...there are fresh animal kills 20 yards in every direction from where we shoot.

Thats part of the picture :)

We've also been approached by some less than stellar 2 legged vermin at this spot, which is another part.

I have watched some of the IDPA/ IPSC action.... Seems like pointing it action style for every movement is part of the movement style... I guess this might be the way to go !

Using "less than formal" shooting areas does present its own unique set of challenges, just trying to do everything I can do to exaggerate some safety....seems like I might just have to get me a table and pretend it is an actual RO'd range not to erode some of the safety checks.

[sirsloop]

ok if leaving it isnt an option... get a holster, clear the gun, holster it, go down range.

[blarby]

I'm actually thinking that we need to get some sort of folding table to act as the "bench" and just treat that like the bench at a real "range"... If I pulled up our vehicle behind us, that might at least dissuade some of the two legged predators.

Looks like I'm going to have to find that holster in any event.... Guess having the "informal" range has lead to some unsafe habits...now to fix it !

[Byrd666]

I understand the dilemma and the reasoning, I believe. My local range is both a formal, when others are present, and informal when not. And when agreed upon by other shooters to be an informal formal session. Even being as such, a few rules are always agreed upon, mostly without anything being said. Walking to the target is Always called. NO exceptions. Weapons are holstered, after being cleared, or left on the bench. If more than one shooter would like to go towards the berm and pop a few from 10-20 yards, then All shooters move required equipment to the agreed upon area downrange. Weapons unloaded and cleared of course. About the only time I've ever taken a loaded weapon beyond the firing line is when I'm alone at the range and my pistol is holstered

[Jim K]

"Guess having the "informal" range has lead to some unsafe habits...now to fix it !"

That is why there are far more accidental/negligent discharges on "informal" ranges than on regulated ranges. I think you can work out a good, safe system without impacting too much on your shooting pleasure.

Jim

[blarby]

Thats what I'm tryin to do, Jim ! Catch 'em and address 'em before something goes amiss ! I guess its important that I realized it before somethin happens, I suppose.

[firesky101]

Interesting thread, I personally have never shot at a formal range. We have the national forests a 30 minute drive from my house, and as such I have always shot on public land, often very secluded. I have more than once seen mountain lion tracks over mine when walking back out on a trail. I always have a loaded sidearm holstered when shooting, if not a loaded rifle, downrange or otherwise. I suppose if I ever visit a pay for play range I will have to read the rules carefully. For the OP's question, I see no problem with the intentional muzzle control at the ground in the scenario you propose.

[jcwit]

blarby, is the range you are describing have loading benches, other shooters present, etc?

BTW my carry arm stays with me whether at the line/bench or down range posting targets

[sirsloop]

Well if you are carrying while shooting something else that's fine. Wouldn't be the first time someone was killed at a range over their guns. If I remember correctly some PA correction officers murdered a few people at public unmanned ranges. Stole their guns but got busted. Kinda strange story too like they were stealing them to sell to buyers for future murders or something...

[blarby]

@ JC : No loading benches, very few other shooters besides myself and my wife, and an occasional tagger-on. We have been approached by some folks there, both friendly and "questionable", but its not something where there are tons of folks hanging about.


Its I guess more complicated than it seems at first...and in its description I guess comes across more dangerous than I presume it to really be... But its the real world out there, and we have to take these things in to consideration.

I know the rules on muzzle safety, and am generally safe handling firearms.

With that said :

This type of informal shooting, its locale, the newness of the weapons, and all the trappings of the combinations of the above have made for some real interesting compromises.... I just don't wan't to be critically unsafe in the pursuit of happiness, ya know ?

[ArchAngelCD]

Create a firing line even on informal ranges.
You can use a table to create that line of just out down sticks to mark the line.
No guns are loaded before you get to the line or when you leave the line.

If you can't leave the weapon at the line clear the weapon and use a holster. (this seems best for you from that you're saying)

Note, when at any range I keep my SD weapon on my body concealed and loaded just in case someone decided they want what I have.

[bubbacrabb]

After living in az for 5 years I learned I never didn't have an open carry loaded side arm with me. I still try not to here in Oregon. I like open carry, says I'm open for business:) especially at places people shot in az, being moslly everywhere. I just didn't trust other people out there. I wanted a back up incase this guy just thought ky gun was. Oil

[Brian Williams]

OK, a few questions;
How do you practice shooting while moving to cover?
How do you practice shooting while "advancing to the rear"?
How do you practice shooting with movement, i.e. IDPA/IPSC
How do you guard from being held up at gunpoint possibly with your own guns from the 100 yards line?
Hot ranges with 270 degree shooting and even up to 360 degree shooting do it a lot, Remember SAFETY starts with software and works with hardware.

Going downrange must be preformed with the range safe, All weapons safed or holstered, whether it is hot or not is up to the club.

[Brian Williams]

Also get a holster, carrying a handgun downrange dangling from your grubby mitts :) is not safe. Even a cheap uncle mikes is better than dangling.

[AFDavis11]

You might ba able to open the cylinder and hold the revolver barrel up and walk around with your hand jammed into the frame, on an informal range, without upsetting too many people. On some informal ranges, where I don't know people, I'm not a big fan of leaving my guns on the table when I go down range. I suppose it explains why I like to shoot with a few friends.

[blarby]

@ Arch : Went and got a table today ! Loves me some walmart sometimes !

@ Brian :

How do you practice shooting while moving to cover?
How do you practice shooting while "advancing to the rear"?
How do you practice shooting with movement, i.e. IDPA/IPSC

This is what I'm trying to learn how to do, safely.

Seems there's a lot of varying ways folks do all of these... from Muzzle down and running, to muzzle point out, sight picture focused on and running full tilt into an obstacle.

How do you guard from being held up at gunpoint possibly with your own guns from the 100 yards line?

This one is what concerns me more than the natural predators in our area... and why it almost seems paramount to keep a loaded weapon with me at all times while at these sites.

Also get a holster

I'm working on it, as soon as I can get my hands on one for this weapon

dangling from your grubby mitts is not safe

The definition of which was ACTUALLY a good chunk of the reason why this thread was started, thank ya very much.... Trying to figure out where "pointing" ends and "dangling " begins. It (the thread and topics related) got a little sidetracked, but I still have yet to see an actual answer to that part.

Geez louise with the rapidfire questioning.... Does raise the issue of why some don't bother to ask them in the first place. :D

[Serenity]

Blarby, don't sweat it. We go through phases here.

My thought is that you should get a cheap universal holster just to carry your gun around at your shooting spot. I don't think I'd want to be unarmed at the place you've described.

[NMPOPS]

Easy solution. Holster it! That way its safe and you have it with you. I realize at some formal ranges this is not an option. But I am used to ranges where it is.

Sent from my Ally

[CraigC]

Wow, some folks need to realize that not everybody shoots at an indoor range with a list of 100 nit picking rules posted on every wall. Some of us actually shoot on our own property, use firearms daily and depend upon our common sense to keep us from shooting ourselves and others. Lord have mercy, what did we do before we had hordes of lawyers to tell us what is and isn't safe??? Where I shoot, there is no firing "line", nearly everywhere is "downrange", so firearms get carried everywhere. Whether it's into the woods or from the shooting position to the target position. Holsters are often used for this purpose but are not necessary. You keep your safeties on if applicable, your muzzles pointed in a safe direction and everybody goes home in one piece. No lawyers or safety Nazis required.

You guys act like a handgun, carried in the hand, can spontaneously explode and end the world. Believe it or not, 'some' people actually take them to the woods, often carried in the hand, where there are no lines drawn, no range officers and no list of rules everywhere you turn. Imagine that?!? :rolleyes:

[Sam1911]

If you can find a cheap nylon holster that will carry the gun 'till you find what you're looking for, that's probably best.

You can also open a revolver's cylinder and carry it by the topstrap, muzzle down. That's absolutely safe from any possibility of discharge.

As others have said, formal ranges will have tigher restrictions (and some very well SHOULD) but those techniques will serve you well in informal settings.

[BCRider]

Blarby, I'm another vote for a cheap Uncle Mike's soft holster. For my competition shooting I've got specific hard leather or plastic holsters for those guns. For the rest of the time I found that two soft Uncle Mikes holsters work well for a place to simply park my handguns while walking around or going downrange to check targets. However with the Uncle Mikes the fit is generic enough that I don't trust such a holster to not accidentally brush off a safety. So the guns are holstered cleared and empty or, for the rare time I've used them during a match or practice, with guns which are started hammer down and use a DA first shot. I simply would not feel comfortable using them with something like my 1911 with the gun cocked and locked. There's too much "stuff" riding against the safety lever in that case.

[X-Rap]

If the gun is loaded (as in you carry piece) make sure it is at all times holstered unless you are shooting it. If you are just plinking with multiple weapons then clear it and either leave on table or carry in hand with cylinder open or slide locked and mag removed.
I usually shoot by myself or with limited few on a private semi formal single bench range and often handgun shoot between the bench and first berm @ 25 yds. I will often carry the gun to the target then back to the bench or tailgate to reload.
The nylon one size fits all will work as well just need to make room for it with your other gun.
With only one active gun shooting I don't see any problem with the gun in hand since presentation and movement are done when training with a loaded gun.

[JRH6856]

OK, Most of the comments, suggestions, demands, and such apply to formal range/club settings. Maybe this is the only shooting experience these posters know, but it isn't all there is. What OP appears to be asking about seems much more informal. A "gravel pit range" he called it. In this probably very informal situation, safety concerns vary with the number of shooters. CraigC has the picture, but for those that feel better with rules...

If it is one person, shooting by themselves, the 4 rules suffice. Get a holster for each gun. If you can't find one you like, get a cheap, generic holster that the gun or guns will fit and use it until you find the perfect one. When going down range, holster the gun. If it is safe to OC or CC in public, it is safe enough for these conditions.

If more than one person is shooting, same applies with the addition that everyone check each other for holster compliance before going down range, and then go down together even if someone has to just stand and watches the others change targets. Guns stay holstered until everyone returns to the shooting line.

Safety isn't rocket science, just awareness and common sense. Don't shoot with people who don't have it or can't use it.

[OurSafeHome.net]

Anyone remember what happened at the "gravel pit range" outside of Miami in the 1980's?

(Look it up, it is part of the FBI Miami Shootout story)

The moral of the story is that if you are shooting at a "gravel pit range" it is wise to keep a lethal weapon loaded and ready in your holster an at your side at all times, even when you are down range!

Politically incorrect comment to follow: Cold ranges are stupid ranges.

[blarby]

So, we went out to try the new method today.

Setup the staging table (weapons, ammo, targets, etc), and the firing line about a foot in front of it.

No moving in front of the table or weapons handling while the other is shooting.

This worked pretty good, actually. We both felt that the table was a significant evolution in "handy" as well as helping to keep things safe(r) than the way we had been doing it before.

Didn't move around any, other than minor adjustments- fully pointed muzzles downrange with eyes locked forward.

I guess that'll work and be what we do until the gun fairy instructs us on the proper method of moving from target to target downrange correctly.

Heck, the way we were both shooting today, targets 15 yards in front of us in straight lines, from a straight line standing still in once place, were hard enough !

[skt239]

I'd get a cheap nylon holster, or something similar, till I found a keeper.

[CraigC]

I often wear a leather gun rig while shooting for convenience purposes but I would certainly not go buying cheap nylon holsters for some perceived safety need. A back pocket works just as well and costs nothing. I think some folks just need to spend more time in the country. Where guns get "used". Rather than being treated like radioactive waste.

[blarby]

I kinda agree with craig-

I'd also say there might be a little misunderstanding on what I mean by moving about down range.

Part of it was for targets, yes.... that portion I think we've addressed.

The other part was actual movement down the range, for the purposes of engaging separate targets. Holstering between "stages" if you will just seems kinda silly... and I don't see any of the competitive shooters doing anything like that. What I see in the videos of this are varying degrees of "muzzle up, eyes focused" on target while moving like a first-person shooter video game, to "muzzle down" watching where you are going between "stages".

Wondering whats the safe and proper way to do that...there seems to be a wide variety. Some look more safe than others, for different reasons. I agree that holding the gun pointing downrange is optimal...but if it forces you to run into obstacles, or trip and fall because you are focused on your sight picture, that doesn't seem safe either.....

[Sam1911]

A back pocket works just as well and costs nothing.
Craig...a back pocket? What are you shooting that will ride safely in a back pocket while you move about the range without hitting the gravel once or twice? Surely not any of your beautiful 6-guns! I'll admit to having guns fall out of things once or twice. It's a bad feeling.

There's plenty of us that live out in the country (;)) who can see the benefits of a nylon cheapie if you're going to go carrying the gun around and need your hands free -- or can't just leave it on the bench/tailgate.

[BCRider]

For time spent moving between shooting spots on a "stage" with a hot gun you won't see a lot of folks aiming downwards to a "low ready" if you check IPSC or IDPA videos on You Tube. At least not the better ones.

When moving between targets in that way it's best to keep the gun up at eye level or very near to it while moving. If you find you need to retract the hands and gun back to get around objects or even lower it to a low ready then you're crowding your cover or obstacles. Work on standing back a little so you're at arm's length to the cover and maneuver to achieve your sight lines for the shots instead.

You'll find that you can get the stage you're shooting done a lot faster if you're not lowering and raising the gun frequently. Or moving it in and out like it's on a telescopic boom.

I don't always practice what I've just preached. But when I do I notice that things move much quicker and my shot times are lower and I don't end up with any near DQ's from having the gun so crowded between myself and the cover that I come near to breaking the "90".

[blarby]

Thank you , BC !

That was very useful and helpful !

Like you said " The better ones don't ( do "x" ) "

Theres a lot of crazy stuff out there on youtube and elsewhere...its hard to sort out whats good form and what isn't when its all fairly new to you. Other than breaking the 90 or 180, even the sanctioned rules aren't very specific....which leaves a lot of room for interpretation !

I'm assuming that the safer stuff translates well to "non-sanctioned events" Like my gravel pit :) Thats just what I'm looking for !

[OregonJohnny]

As a fellow Oregonian, I will try to help clarify what the OP is describing. It seems like a lot of people are picturing their own range, whether formal or informal, indoor or outdoor, public or private, when the type of shooting area the OP is talking about is probably much different.

Here in Oregon, we have a lot of public land. In the western part of the state, it is State Forest, in the central and eastern part of the state, it is BLM (and some National Forest). Throughout these public areas, (where it is legal to target practice) there are VERY informal shooting "pits" around every turn. The most common type is a gravel pit dug into the side of a hill, just off a graveled logging road, with a very high backstop on 3 sides. These spots are unfortunately often littered with brass, shotgun shells, broken clay pigeons, blasted up computer monitors, and other garbage. I usually venture much deeper into these forests to find cleaner, more private areas. If I see a favorite spot has already been claimed by some shooters, I'll just keep driving down the logging road to find an empty spot.

Many people find a spot, pull of the road a few feet, park, set up some empty soda cans, and start plinking away in a (hopefully) safe direction with a natural hillside as a backstop. No tables, benches, range officers, firing lines, other people, rules (other than "the 4"), etc.

For me, this is the most enjoyable type of shooting. Informal plinking at reactive targets. Of course, I am a reloader, so I pick up all my brass afterwards. I also clean up any garbage, never shoot at live trees, etc. I try and leave the spot like I found it. Many of the shooters in these areas do not follow these same standards.

Along with all of this comes the fact that some of the other shooters or general "woods" people you might come across up in the remote Oregon logging areas can be...slightly...well, "unsavory". So leaving my guns behind unguarded on a table while I walk 40 or 50 yards away to change targets is something I would never do. I always bring holsters along, and whatever gun I'm shooting gets a fresh magazine or speed loader inserted, then the gun gets safetied and holstered as I go about changing targets. I'm not about to have some meth head track down the sound of gunfire in the forest, watch from a distance, then get the jump on me as I leave my guns behind and walk away to change targets.

I've had angry (and well-armed) elk hunters emerge from the forest while I've been target shooting in these public areas. Why you would elk hunt in a very heavily-used target shooting and dirt biking area, I don't know. But if an elk hunter can follow the sound of gunfire and emerge behind you from out of nowhere to take you by surprise, so can an opportunistic criminal.

The point is, these areas are shared by lots of different types of people, and formal firing range rules do not apply. I try to always go with another person, but if I must go up there alone, I'm always very cautious, and always armed.

[blarby]

Wow, Johnny.

Thats about the best description I've seen of our shooting spots yet !

Both in terms of environment, and environmental perils !

That should be a sticky for "shooting in Oregon " !

Well done.

[CraigC]

What are you shooting that will ride safely in a back pocket while you move about the range without hitting the gravel once or twice?
You'd be surprised! A 4¾" SAA, 1911 up to 5", 5½" Single Six, any ~4" DA, etc. and anything smaller will all ride nicely in a back jeans pocket. `Course, I have big britches and the appropriate big pockets so maybe I'm getting more of it in there than some. You guys know I shoot all the time. I don't so much as go to the mailbox without a handgun of some sort and I have never had one fall out. I wouldn't go climbing into a treestand or drive to town with a full sized pistol in my pocket but for farting around and doing a little shooting behind the house, it works fine.

[OregonJohnny]

Wow, Johnny.

Thats about the best description I've seen of our shooting spots yet !

Both in terms of environment, and environmental perils !

That should be a sticky for "shooting in Oregon " !

Well done.

Thanks! I've been plinking on State Forest land since my dad used to take me when I was 7 or 8. Nowadays, when I go to a formal range, public or private, I feel very "stifled". Too many other people, too many rules, you can't move and shoot, can't draw from a holster, can't empty a 20-round magazine in 5 seconds just for the hell of it, can't shoot at empty propane cans at 100 yards away to listen for that satisfying "clink", etc. It's no fun at all!

[SabbathWolf]

Wow, some folks need to realize that not everybody shoots at an indoor range with a list of 100 nit picking rules posted on every wall. Some of us actually shoot on our own property, use firearms daily and depend upon our common sense to keep us from shooting ourselves and others. Lord have mercy, what did we do before we had hordes of lawyers to tell us what is and isn't safe??? Where I shoot, there is no firing "line", nearly everywhere is "downrange", so firearms get carried everywhere. Whether it's into the woods or from the shooting position to the target position. Holsters are often used for this purpose but are not necessary. You keep your safeties on if applicable, your muzzles pointed in a safe direction and everybody goes home in one piece. No lawyers or safety Nazis required.

You guys act like a handgun, carried in the hand, can spontaneously explode and end the world. Believe it or not, 'some' people actually take them to the woods, often carried in the hand, where there are no lines drawn, no range officers and no list of rules everywhere you turn. Imagine that?!? :rolleyes:


lol......!
This is exactly what I was thinking too.
I don't unload a thing when I'm out shooting.
And I carry right with me as I check targets.
Some of them are at 25 meters.
Others are 300 meters away.

I agree.
It sounds to me that all these rules and regulations are what "is" causing all the bad habits.
Not the other way around!
I'm not going to disarm myself on purpose even on my own land.
I just use common sense...not a bunch of mamby panby rules made up by Sarah Brady or a bunch of mini-van driving soccer mommies.

I agree with the get a holster part though. They are helpful.

My "range" is also home....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/5e57ec88.jpg

[gunnysmith]

Mine too.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Misc%20gun%20stuff/TheRangeA.jpg

[CraigC]

It sounds to me that all these rules and regulations are what "is" causing all the bad habits. Not the other way around! I'm not going to disarm myself on purpose even on my own land. I just use common sense...not a bunch of mamby panby rules made up by Sarah Brady or a bunch of mini-van driving soccer mommies.
Agreed! Common sense ain't so common. I'd be a fool to purposely walk "downrange" without a loaded firearm. I never know when I'm going to encounter a copperhead or timber rattler. I crossed paths with a copperhead just Tuesday, laying across a branch hanging over the creek I was fishing in. You better know I had my stainless Bearcat loaded in my waders' chest pocket! Killed a big skunk with my Single Six just a couple hours later.

I just think too many shooters are accustomed to indoor ranges with lots and lots of rules. To the point that they 'think' they 'need' them to get by.

[SabbathWolf]

Agreed! Common sense ain't so common. I'd be a fool to purposely walk "downrange" without a loaded firearm. I never know when I'm going to encounter a copperhead or timber rattler. I crossed paths with a copperhead just Tuesday, laying across a branch hanging over the creek I was fishing in. You better know I had my stainless Bearcat loaded in my waders' chest pocket! Killed a big skunk with my Single Six just a couple hours later.

I just think too many shooters are accustomed to indoor ranges with lots and lots of rules. To the point that they 'think' they 'need' them to get by.

Agreed.
And I have snakes here too.
Also coyote and bobcats.
Even an angry possum can bite you and leave an infected poisonous wound.
I wonder what all the pioneers, city folk and cowboys did without all those range rules?
lol..........
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif

[gunnysmith]

Myths and mysteries abound, but city folks think differently.

I think of the 5 in a 6 shooter for safety that now permeates the shooting industry.
I think of the old westerner who would laugh at that.
I can just hear him say, " Im bought it for six and by gum I'll load six".
The only safety in that is for the dadgum guy I'm shootin at.

[mcdonl]

blarby, it sounds like you made some great adjustments. I have the luxury of being able to drive up to where I shoot, even at the "formal" range I go to I have my own shooting table ($50 rig from SAMS Club) and can just back up to the bench. You are a couple of "totes" away from being a professional. Welcome :)

[Sam1911]

Guys, there's a lot of hyperbole here, getting to the point of silliness, I think.

If you're out alone on your own land, your only safety concerns are for not accidentally shooting yourself and not letting your bullets travel beyond your safe backstop. There are perfectly reasonable and important "rules" for that kind of thing, and the traditional "Four Rules" cover that situation adequately. They don't say you can't have a loaded gun, holstered gun, or carry a gun with you when you walk your 300 meters to check a target. They are appropriate to what you're doing.

When you shoot in a public place, sometimes a few more considerations may be necessary as you don't completely control the area and who's on it. Hey, maybe you shouldn't go walking around the uneven ground of a gravel pit with your pals with a loaded guns in your hand. DUH! Maybe we can come up with some reasonable safety precautions that are a bit better without "stifling" anyone's fun ... :rolleyes:

When you shoot certain kinds of gun, more considerations may be necessary.

(The crusty old cowboy who doesn't understand the "Load 1, Skip 1, Load 4" rule for OLD STYLE single-action revolvers is likely destined to be called "Gimpy" by his crusty old cowboy pals. That DOESN'T permeate the industry NOW...it did back when guns didn't have modern safety features.)

When you shoot with a few more people on an informal range, more rules yet may be required. Again, DUH! You have more bodies to keep track of, ear and eye pro. to make sure are in place on more heads, more muzzles to control.

When you shoot on formal ranges, with lots of other people you probably don't know and who's skill levels you aren't in control of (and/or in competition) obviously even more rules need to be established so everyone goes home with the same number of holes the arrived with. There is no joy, "fun," or personal betterment in having a cavalier attitude about safety, and denigrating folks who pay close attention to keeping themselves and their fellow shooters safe and healthy is not acceptable at all. :(

Laughing at folks who follow strict safety rules when shooting on a range with others -- because you don't need no "steenkin' roooles" when you're out shooting skunks or copperheads up some backwoods creek is really kind of dumb.

Saying that all these rules are what's making us less safe is gol-danged GOOFY that you really should go slap yourself! Go on. Do it. ... There. Feel better now? Good. :D

[gunnysmith]

What is the difference in a six shooter, if I drop the hammer between the rims of the loaded cartridges rather than over the primer, or leave the chamber empty?

[CraigC]

Laughing at folks who follow strict safety rules when shooting on a range with others -- because you don't need no "steenkin' roooles" when you're out shooting skunks or copperheads up some backwoods creek is really kind of dumb.
Nobody's laughing. Or dumb. However, as has been said, some of the statements made in this thread are silly.....in 'my' context. Like those made in posts 2, 4 and 9. I don't know how what I've said could be misconstrued as "I don't need no steenkin' roooles". What I'm saying is that I don't need the steenking rules described in those three posts. That quite possibly, the rules ARE and SHOULD be different between a public range where folks of widely varying skillsets and mindsets may frequent and more private, informal settings. Another point I've tried to make with the skunk and copperhead reference is that my shooting range, my outdoor forays and my general need for a pistol on my hip all happen at the same place. I don't travel to the range to shoot. I don't travel to the woods to hunt. I live there. This has not always been so. I grew up going to restrictive indoor ranges and then later, large public outdoor ranges. I know all about the rules and range officers and there is a good reason for most of them. I've seen what happens when they are broken and I've had the crap scared out of me by my fellow shooters. All I'm saying is that they don't apply everywhere and folks should understand that. If you think that all adds up to unsafe practices, nobody invited you. Although I think most would find it to be VASTLY safer to shoot with me on my property than with the yahoos you find on most public ranges. Why? Because I value my person, I value my loved ones, I value my guns, I value my lovely home, I value my truck, I value my tractor, I value my UTV, etc.. I do not want holes in any of those things.

Just don't labor under the impression that you're talking to an ignorant country bumpkin. ;)


What is the difference in a six shooter, if I drop the hammer between the rims of the loaded cartridges rather than over the primer, or leave the chamber empty?
Safety-wise, nothing. Practically speaking, the bolt is resting between notches and that usually leads to unnecessary scratches.

[Sam1911]

What is the difference in a six shooter, if I drop the hammer between the rims of the loaded cartridges rather than over the primer, or leave the chamber empty?

That and the fact that with the cylider bolt not in a notch to hold the cylinder still, the chances are pretty good that with enough moving around the cylinder will shift, the bolt will find a notch, and you'll have the FP resting on a primer after all.

This isn't an issue with any updated revolver design (transfer bar, etc), so don't worry about it.

[CraigC]

I don't understand why some folks have a hangup about carrying a sixgun with the hammer down on an empty chamber. I've done it so much, it's completely unnatural to do anything different.

[Sam1911]

Nobody's laughing. Or dumb. However, as has been said, some of the statements made in this thread are silly.....in 'my' context. Like those made in posts 2, 4 and 9.Ok. In context. That's the point I was getting at. There are things that we can do for best "reasonable" safety practices in each context.

I know all about the rules and range officers and there is a good reason for most of them. I've seen what happens when they are broken and I've had the crap scared out of me by my fellow shooters. All I'm saying is that they don't apply everywhere and folks should understand that.No argument. Or, if I do have a quibble it is that only a very few of the rules do apply everywhere. (Like the "Four.")

Just don't labor under the impression that you're talking to an ignorant country bumpkin. I think you know me better than that! :)

[CraigC]

Or, if I do have a quibble it is that only a very few of the rules do apply everywhere. (Like the "Four.")
Absolutely! I hope folks understand that while there are rules important to the safe operation of a public range that simply do not apply in other situations, NONE of this is ever taken lightly. One can become "too comfortable" and become complacent but you have to consciously avoid letting that happen. Bullets do terrible things to flesh and we must always keep that in mind.


I think you know me better than that!
I do, that was for everybody else. ;)

[shuvelrider]

For all the plinking and informal shooting I've done in the woods over the years, growing up in Illinois. I'm glad I've never had to memorize so many"safety rules", just to enjoy a day in the woods, always just applied some common sense.
Have some of you guys ever had any fun while shooting, seems like your all wrapped up serious in your rules to actually enjoy your time shooting. Maybe its time to get away from the "range experience", and go do some "woods bumming".
I use a range here in Michigan, never fails, the self proclaimed range boss/expert will wonder down to my station on the rifle line. A minor irritation , I ignore him and he goes away. We have a few basic rules and a safety red light for when someone wants to check a target, other then that, all common sense. The weapon is just a tool you learn to use properly, so much safety has been piled on over the years by so called "experts", its a wonder anyone even takes a gun out of the case anymore. (sarcasm)

[Sam1911]

always just applied some common sense.


Because the common sense that folks manage to think up on their own works out so well...? :scrutiny:

You'd think that gun safety is common sense. But we have threads about twice a month about someone walking out on in front of the firing line when others are shooting. Or picking up a gun when others are down range. Or flagging others with the muzzle because "hey, it's unloaded." Etc, etc...to the point where you begin to understand that having these "common sense" things clearly spelled out makes very good UNCOMMON sense.

seems like your all wrapped up serious in your rules to actually enjoy your time shootingThis is absurd, and just the kind of denigration that I find so daft. The rules help you have FUN and learn something/improve without hurting anyone else -- or having to worry about surviving the experience working under the other guys' "common sense" or lack thereof.

The rules should be appropriate to the situation. If you're content to do a little woods bumming, fine. Follow the four rules and that should keep you from putting a bullet in yourself or anyone else.

Want to get serious and do a little competition? You'd better be able to follow some rules that go a bit above your own "common sense." If you participate long enough, your "common sense" will soon begin to comprehend why the heightened rules are in place for that activity.

[blarby]

Well, looks like I'm gonna be getting a new holster handmade locally for $65.

Should get it sometime next week !

[BCRider]

Holsters are like rifle slings... but for handguns :D

If it's a nice fitting holster that fits both you and the gun then you're in for a treat. Any time I'm at a range where we're not shooting from a static position at a fixed table or bench I find that a holster is the second most important thing I can bring next to extra ammo.

And given the nature of your casual shooting sights as described a few posts up I'd say that the best thing you can do when moving around the range is to have the gun with you. And the rest of your stuff locked away other than for the ammo you're using in the immediate future.

[shuvelrider]

There is a difference to being safe and then to the point of being "over safe". Meaning rules and regulation can get to a point of being so over bearing that, the sport of shooting ceases to be fun and enjoyable.
I will apply common sense to my shooting as I've always done, follow the rules at my local range. Been to many years in the military (still serving) not to understand that safety has a place on the line, the Darwin crowd will continue to be at every range. You will not fix that, no matter how many rules you put in place.
"Serious competition"? I won't comment on that, active duty in Iraq and now Afghanistan is serious enough for me, don't try to be condescending to what you perceive as my experience. I will continue to stay away from the crowds when shooting, same as I do on a motorcycle. To many so called "operator's" out there anymore on a shooting line. Unless that is to "absurd" or "daft" for anyone to understand.

[SabbathWolf]

There is a difference to being safe and then to the point of being "over safe". Meaning rules and regulation can get to a point of being so over bearing that, the sport of shooting ceases to be fun and enjoyable.
I will apply common sense to my shooting as I've always done, follow the rules at my local range. Been to many years in the military (still serving) not to understand that safety has a place on the line, the Darwin crowd will continue to be at every range. You will not fix that, no matter how many rules you put in place.
"Serious competition"? I won't comment on that, active duty in Iraq and now Afghanistan is serious enough for me, don't try to be condescending to what you perceive as my experience. I will continue to stay away from the crowds when shooting, same as I do on a motorcycle. To many so called "operator's" out there anymore on a shooting line. Unless that is to "absurd" or "daft" for anyone to understand.

I just don't think I can top your post.
I made it through my 20 army years and finally retired.
Serious "competition" just cracks me up when people try to use that as some sort of a high standard or something by which all others should be judged.
I agree.
It's completely ridiculous compared to the things you've seen and done for "real."
Been there, seen that, done that...and most importantly "survived" it...ranks a hell of a lot higher than "competition" EVER will.
I wish you good fortune my friend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/529eb8d6.gif

[shuvelrider]

Hooah sir!!!! 21 years in and still serving. Glad that someone else "gets it " also.. I will speak my mind, even if contrary to current "fashion" or the opinion's of any self-appointed forum guru.

[SabbathWolf]

Hooah sir!!!! 21 years in and still serving. Glad that someone else "gets it " also..

Yep. I read ya loud and clear.
Just don't call me Sir though.....lol
I was an NCO.
:D

[shuvelrider]

Roger that, NCO here also :D

[SabbathWolf]

Roger that, NCO here also :D

That's where the metal meets the meat so they say.
;)

[Sam1911]

Serious "competition" just cracks me up when people try to use that as some sort of a high standard or something by which all others should be judged.
I agree.
It's completely ridiculous compared to the things you've seen and done for "real."
Been there, seen that, done that...and most importantly "survived" it...ranks a hell of a lot higher than "competition" EVER will.

Good one, guys. Hope you hit your targets. You sure seem to have a bad habit of missing the point! ;)

There are things that we can do for best "reasonable" safety practices in each context.
If you don't understand why there might be differences in safety rules between shooting on your own on your land, shooting on an informal range with a group of friends, shooting on a line with 100 other competitors, and surviving combat...then please continue to avoid the crowds.

I sure hope when you qualify, the Gunny doesn't try and make you follow too many rules.

[shuvelrider]

The point of safety was not missed, I've ran my share of ranges to know about correct procedure. No matter how many safeguards are built in, there will still be that one person or the potential for an incident. All we can do, is to mitigate that possibility. Avoid crowds?, as much as I can so I don't have to be around that one person who might do something stupid. I'll enjoy my shooting when I can concentrate on what I'm doing.

[CraigC]

I will continue to stay away from the crowds when shooting, same as I do on a motorcycle.
Amen to that!!!

[SabbathWolf]

Good one, guys. Hope you hit your targets. You sure seem to have a bad habit of missing the point! ;)


If you don't understand why there might be differences in safety rules between shooting on your own on your land, shooting on an informal range with a group of friends, shooting on a line with 100 other competitors, and surviving combat...then please continue to avoid the crowds.

I sure hope when you qualify, the Gunny doesn't try and make you follow too many rules.


I beg to differ.
We understand the difference completely.
No one is missing the point.
Competition targets are not shooting back at you.

As for the Gunny comment....lol...I too "ran" ranges and "was" the boss as well.....same as Shuvelrider. Sure we had qualification ranges where everyone left their weapon empty, on safe, magazine removed, bolt locked to the rear, and kept on the line while the soldiers advanced down range to check their targets. (on paper ranges...not pop-up)
But, we also have plenty of live-fire exercises too, where soldiers advanced on targets, leap frogging each other, or various other squad or team tactics and shooting stuff up left and right all around each other.

In today's world, unloading your weapon and leaving it behind is terribly dangerous in a civilian environment. Especially with complete strangers all around you, instead of trusted friends and allies. Even at an indoor range supposedly all safe and secure with its multitude of rules and regulations, one nut-ball can ruin everyones day.

If those are the "rules" at the range(s) that are attended, and you/they/we accept them, then so be it. I don't accept that, and so therefor don't attend those types of ranges at all. I avoid crowds as well, same as some others here.

I see no logical reason to set myself up on purpose. Being armed didn't help "this" time, but in other cases...it may have. And there "are" other cases.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30109090/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/mom-kills-son-then-self-shooting-range/

Here's another...


http://abcnews.go.com/US/missouri-couple-found-dead-alleged-shooting-range-murder/story?id=14464596

Point is...all those "rules" saved nobody at all.