How would you handle this encounter with law enforement?


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sherman123
April 28, 2012, 08:01 PM
For the record this is in no way meant to be a cop bashing thread. I am simply asking how the good folks here would respond to such a situation. I don't want this thread to get locked so if we could please stick to suggestions that would be great. I am withholding my own opinions of law enforcement for this reason.

I was recently pulled over for going 2 miles over speed limit by a local LEO on the way home from submission grappling class.(It was late at night,I'm 25 but look like I'm still in high school so that was probably why lol). I was carrying and in my home state there is no duty to inform unless officer specifically asks if you are carrying. The cop didn't understand our state law and demanded to know why I didn't tell him and insisted that I had violated a law. I told him that there is no duty to inform law in our state and he basically said that I didn't know what I was talking about.

When I pulled over I kept my hands on steering wheel and made no movements until clearly told to do so by officer. Yet he decided to make a comment that if he had to shoot me it would've been my fault because I didn't inform him I was carrying. If he shot me he would've been charged with murder and it certainly wouldn't have been my fault. I was calm up until this point and that admittedly made me livid but I kept my cool and didn't show it.

I don't appreciate threats of physical violence directed my way. I knew then and there I was going to call the campus police dept'(he is a university cop who has jurisdiction outside of campus) and there was no point in arguing with someone who clearly wasn't very stable.

I have already called campus police to politely report this thuggish behavior to his superior/superiors. I was informed the man in charge was out until Monday so I plan on calling back then. Does anyone think I should take further action as far as possibly calling state police? I just want to make sure this gets handled right because I worry those in charge there won't care since I know a few other folks who were harassed for no reason by officers of the same dep't. It's gotten to the point where they've developed a reputation for this in the past few months. Thank you all.

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BCCL
April 28, 2012, 08:18 PM
I'd VERY politely talk to his superior Monday, but not sure why you would call the state police, unless the campus police are part of them?

NOLAEMT
April 28, 2012, 08:22 PM
Agreed, a face to face talk with his superior along with an open records request for the audio/video tape to bring along would be my first impression.

Black Knight
April 28, 2012, 08:27 PM
I wouldn't call out the big guns just yet, so to speak. I would contact their chief and file an informal complaint first. If the chief balks at this then file a formal complaint. Then if this does nothing you should contact your state's Attorney General's Office and file a formal complaint there. Try to get it straightened out at the lowest level possible first. If you bring in the big guns at first everyone may just clam up or cast suspition on your character.

PBR Streetgang
April 28, 2012, 08:33 PM
Ok ,a question before I give you a answer.....Does your CCW permit show when your license or registration is run by the officer? Some states alert the officer that the driver has a CCW permit.

Tinpig
April 28, 2012, 08:37 PM
Sounds like you kept your cool and handled it very well indeed. Good that you didn't further rile a guy already on a short fuse, and good that you lodged a complaint later. Chances are they've had other problems with this officer, or that they need to review their policies and training.

I'd give the campus police a chance to do the right thing thing before getting the staties involved. If you're not taken seriously, try talking to the university administrator in charge of campus policing. It's your college; your tuition (or taxes) are paying all their salaries.

Tinpig

RCWFL
April 28, 2012, 08:53 PM
At the point he was claiming that you were breaking the law I'd tell him that I'd comply with his orders and I'd ask him to call his supervisor.

If I was arrested I'd keep my mouth shut until I was released.

If I was not arrested I'd make a note to inform a police supervisor of his lack of knowledge of the law.

Some folks don't know everything.

mg.mikael
April 28, 2012, 09:09 PM
recently pulled over for going 2 miles over speed limit
Is this what the officer wrote out specifically on the ticket? If so, I'd fight the ticket as well since 2 mph over the speed limit is impossible to enforce. Since your speedometer could very well be off those 2mph or his radar could be off. Either way that's like saying your 0.5 mph over the speed limit......which is pretty much impossible to prove.

zxcvbob
April 28, 2012, 09:21 PM
How did the cop find out you were armed?

If he shot me he would've been charged with murder
Don't bet on it. (who would bring the charges?)

Shoobee
April 28, 2012, 09:34 PM
2 miles over the speed limit is still 2 miles over the speed limit.

A speed limit is a speed limit. So you broke the law while you were carrying concealed.

That was your first mistake.

You need to be more vigilant about obeying the law whenever you are armed.

Your second mistake was failing to have enough common sense to know that if an officer or anyone else sees you going for something that looks like a gun, now that his life is also in danger, he is going to draw on you. I would have drawn on you at that point.

If a police officer pulls you over, and walks up to you, and you have no doubt he/she is really a bonafide police officer, you should always have the courtesy and common sense to inform him you are armed, therefore please don't draw on you.

Since his gun is holstered and yours is concealed, you won't stand a chance if he draws on you.

You are lucky he did not kill you.

I am sure they will deal with your complaint on Monday, as in get it behind them.

I do not believe the officer did anything wrong. Neither will his/her boss.

mrvco
April 28, 2012, 09:37 PM
I assume he asked once he saw he had a CCW permit after running his license.

And I'm ~pretty sure~ that a police officer can't just open fire on you because he/she thinks you may have a gun hidden on your person (legally or not). (Nothing in the OP makes it sound like there was any sort of threat other than seeing that the driver had a CCW permit and the officer returning to ask whether they were carrying or not).

84B20
April 28, 2012, 09:57 PM
2 miles over the speed limit is still 2 miles over the speed limit.

A speed limit is a speed limit. So you broke the law while you were carrying concealed.

That was your first mistake.

You need to be more vigilant about obeying the law whenever you are armed.

Your second mistake was failing to have enough common sense to know that if an officer or anyone else sees you going for something that looks like a gun, now that his life is also in danger, he is going to draw on you. I would have drawn on you at that point.

If a police officer pulls you over, and walks up to you, and you have no doubt he/she is really a bonafide police officer, you should always have the courtesy and common sense to inform him you are armed, therefore please don't draw on you.

Since his gun is holstered and yours is concealed, you won't stand a chance if he draws on you.

You are lucky he did not kill you.

I am sure they will deal with your complaint on Monday, as in get it behind them.

I do not believe the officer did anything wrong. Neither will his/her boss.

As was stated in a previous post, the accuracy of the human eye or radar detector is not always that precise. Also, as was also stated in a previous post his state does not require him to inform. Please re-read the posts before passing judgment. The campus cop was out of line with his threat.

zxcvbob
April 28, 2012, 09:58 PM
Your second mistake was failing to have enough common sense to know that if an officer or anyone else sees you going for something that looks like a gun, now that his life is also in danger, he is going to draw on you. I would have drawn on you at that point.


What point exactly is that? Was it when OP had both hands on the steering wheel?

snakeman
April 28, 2012, 09:58 PM
I'd run that jerk through every ounce of misery I could muster and make an example out of him. They have to know that they aren't superior and don't have above average rights. I'd sue his the pants off of him and make it public by calling the press. That's what I would do. He had no right to threaten or harass you. Actually I would RUIN that whole campus department.

Espada
April 28, 2012, 10:04 PM
You did right in not antagonizing the officer. The brightest and best don't gravitate to police work.

84B20
April 28, 2012, 10:09 PM
You did right in not antagonizing the officer. The brightest and best don't gravitate to police work.

Now that's a bit jaded! I have worked with many LEO's in a previous career and found your comment to be totally inaccurate.

Onward Allusion
April 28, 2012, 10:12 PM
Shoobee
2 miles over the speed limit is still 2 miles over the speed limit.

A speed limit is a speed limit. So you broke the law while you were carrying concealed.

That was your first mistake.

You need to be more vigilant about obeying the law whenever you are armed.

Your second mistake was failing to have enough common sense to know that if an officer or anyone else sees you going for something that looks like a gun, now that his life is also in danger, he is going to draw on you. I would have drawn on you at that point.

If a police officer pulls you over, and walks up to you, and you have no doubt he/she is really a bonafide police officer, you should always have the courtesy and common sense to inform him you are armed, therefore please don't draw on you.

Since his gun is holstered and yours is concealed, you won't stand a chance if he draws on you.

You are lucky he did not kill you.

I am sure they will deal with your complaint on Monday, as in get it behind them.

I do not believe the officer did anything wrong. Neither will his/her boss.

May you one day be judged in the same manner you judge others.

Serenity
April 28, 2012, 10:14 PM
Well that was rude, Espada. :scrutiny:

Shoobee if you'd read the OP closely you would have seen that he kept his hands on the steering wheel. :confused:

Sherman123, you showed great restraint and common sense. Rare enough qualities in humans one at a time, let alone combined. :)

I second (or third) the opinion to start your complaint at the lowest level and allow them the chance to respond.

armoredman
April 28, 2012, 10:24 PM
Go with the complaint on Monday, and then follow through all the way up the chain if you can.
If a police officer pulls you over, and walks up to you, and you have no doubt he/she is really a bonafide police officer, you should always have the courtesy and common sense to inform him you are armed, therefore please don't draw on you.
He never stated how the officer discovered he was armed, so he may have informed him later during the encounter. If there is no requirement to state I am armed, there is no NEED to, as I know I am not going to try to murder anyone.

Since his gun is holstered and yours is concealed, you won't stand a chance if he draws on you.

Wanna bet? There's a reason officers usually pop the thumb break and have a hand on a holstered sidearm - because there is no telling how fast someone can bring a concealed weapon into play.

You are lucky he did not kill you.
If he had, it's possible charges could be filed, if A), the young man didn't have the gun in his hand, and B) made no moves, overt or covert towards threatening the officer. If the officer had shot the young man simply because he was lawfully armed, the officer would quite likely be "demoted" to inmate for 25-life. If he had killed him, who knows - does his state have the Death Penalty?

I am sure they will deal with your complaint on Monday, as in get it behind them.

BAD attitude. They should deal with the complaint, as in DEAL WITH IT, as a legitimate complaint of an officer perhaps in violation of both policy and law.

I do not believe the officer did anything wrong. Neither will his/her boss.
You weren't there, hotshot, and neither was I. Just how well do you know his boss? You must be good golfing buddies, eh? :)


To the OP, please let us know how the followup goes.

David E
April 28, 2012, 10:29 PM
You are lucky he did not kill you.


Seriously?

How in the world could you possibly reach this insane conclusion?

Aaron Baker
April 28, 2012, 10:31 PM
I have not been impressed with the University of Kentucky police officers, and if I'm reading your post correctly, that's who you were dealing with. You certainly do not have a legal obligation to inform in this state, but I can't say whether or not they see your CCW status when they run your plates.

(On a side note, without a permit in Kentucky, you're still legal to carry a loaded or unloaded firearm in your glovebox, console, or seatback. All legally allowed by statute. Would you have a duty to inform then? I can only imagine how the cop in question would react if you informed and DIDN'T have a CCW.)

I always wonder when a cop starts insisting that you've done something illegal (when there's no statute to back them up), why they aren't just citing you or arresting you if they're so sure?

It is beyond the pale for an officer to talk smack about how he would have shot you if you'd looked at him funny. That kind of Rambo attitude is immature, and frankly, frightening in a police officer. I cannot imagine a single situation in which I would find it acceptable for a police officer to speculate to a citizen about the hypothetical circumstances in which he'd shoot him. When they have you on the roadside like that, it's especially disturbing because you're in custody and not free to leave. So they're abusing their power by forcing you to listen to their Napoleonic fantasies about killing you.

You should definitely report him to his supervisor, although I frankly doubt that it will do much good.

Also, don't expect the Fayette County Commonwealth Attorney's office to charge a cop with murder if he just flies off the handle and shoots you. Have you seen Ray Larson's website? It's nauseating.

Aaron

loose noose
April 28, 2012, 10:35 PM
As a retired LEO from what you stated the campus police officer was definitely in the wrong. First for stopping you, and second for inferring he could have shot you for the violation. I would definitely speak to his superior in reference to the event, I have no idea how that officer could have passed a psychological exam, which is usually the first requirement of becoming an officer. Further if what you said is accurate, that officer is a terrible reflection on the entire staff of the campus police force.:mad:

elrowe
April 28, 2012, 10:44 PM
Why wouldn't you let him know anyway? Although you're right that there is no duty to inform in KY, according to my KY CCDW Instructor's Manual, "If you have any weapons with you, you should tell the officer." (pg. 20, 4th edition) There's similar language in the Applicant Manual, I just don't have a copy handy. It also makes sense to do so regardless of what state you're in as I travel extensively across the river into Ohio that makes it criminal not to inform, so we just do it the same every time.

His comments were not necessarily out of line, maybe his tone (wasn't there to judge), but not the content. If you'd bent over to reach into the glove box and your shirt rode up, he'd have cleared leather on you in a heartbeat, that's what happens when cops are surprised by guns. That would have been a real game-changer caused by you not giving him the courtesy.

All of the instructors that I work with make a point to highlight the safety aspects of informing the officer (didn't yours?), and all of the LEOs that I know want to know about it. Particularly, since I'm assuming your encounter was with an officer from UK or UofL, they have a lot of shady stuff happening around them, particularly at night.

From a personal standpoint, when I was stopped for a burnt out headlight last week, I had no problem after stating "I am a concealed carry permit holder and am currently armed." In fact, a couple of friends have ended up in general firearms discussions after notifying the officers who stopped them.

zxcvbob
April 28, 2012, 10:50 PM
If he had killed him, who knows - does his state have the Death Penalty?Yes, but this wouldn't qualify -- it has to be aggravated murder to get the death penalty in Kentucky, and "aggravated" is pretty narrowly defined. However, if prosecuted federally as a civil rights violation it could get a death penalty. HTH.

beatledog7
April 28, 2012, 10:53 PM
Stopping you for 2 miles over is the first clue you're dealing with a LEO who is looking for confrontation. That said, he is still a sworn LEO, and your duty is to obey him now and deal with your opinion of his conduct later.

snakeman
April 28, 2012, 10:58 PM
" obey" the COP because he is god

WTBguns10kOK
April 28, 2012, 11:01 PM
Humans often have multiple things going for them, or multiple things going against them. Your opening comment about being stopped for 2 miles over the limit is a mother of all red flags that the cop is...challenged. You chose the wiser of two paths, though it would have been tempting to make a fool of him. Guess it's time for the camera in your car, eh?

MachIVshooter
April 28, 2012, 11:18 PM
2 miles over the speed limit is still 2 miles over the speed limit.

A speed limit is a speed limit. So you broke the law while you were carrying concealed.

Speed limit in contemporary society is really a posted speed that you should travel. It is discourteous to other drivers to travel slower, and actually more dangerous than speeding.

While a police officer *can* stop you for any amount over, it is pretty much standard that up to 5 over is fine. Hence, I tend to agree with:

Stopping you for 2 miles over is the first clue you're dealing with a LEO who is looking for confrontation.

OP handled the situation fine, and I'd do exactly what he did as far as pursuing a complaint. We don't need billy bad*** with a badge to go unchecked until he really does hurt someone.

Guess it's time for the camera in your car, eh?

Most all cell phones these days have video. There are also all kinds of discreet cameras out there. I wouldn't make an officer aware he's on camera until you feel it's necessary to keep him in line, though..........unless you don't mind getting cited for every tiny violation.

Most cops are perfectly decent people, but dealing with the bad apples can be a real nightmare. Just don't let it get out of hand. Deal with it like the OP, because unless you have a ton of witnesses to corroborate your story, it's your word against his, and that will not be good enough.

Shoobee
April 29, 2012, 03:14 AM
I guess different people interpret the English language differently.

I interpreted this story as a stipulation that the perp was going over the speed limit.

And that is an infraction for violating the law.

I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.

If you have no doubt a police officer is really a police officer, why would you not tell him you are legally packing? I sure would. Why would you keep that a secret?

Go ahead and raise a stink on Monday. I am sure the police brass will put it all to rest.

And THEN they will type something into your permanent online driving record: PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.

TennJed
April 29, 2012, 03:34 AM
I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.

If you have no doubt a police officer is really a police officer, why would you not tell him you are legally packing? I sure would. Why would you keep that a secret?

First off, I respect the heck out of LEOs. It is a dangerous, thankless job that is full of some of the bravest men and women in the country

BUT, I think anybody in authority that uses phases like "if he had to shoot me it would've been my fault because I didn't inform him I was carrying" is someone that has something a little "off" upstairs. Police sould not use threats on a traffic violation. For the office to even bring up the idea of shooting him shows that it is probably best NOT to inform that you are carrying.

Remember, the legal CCW citizen does not know the mental stability of the officer he encounters. It is common sense to keep aconcealed weapon concealed and I see no reason to bring it up until I feel comfortable with who I am speaking with.

Your view of common sense and common courtesy is (IMHO) flawed by assuming all LEOs are stable enough not to use their position of power to threaten. While the vast majority do not do this, it is obvious form the OP that this police officer is not stable enough. Again no excuse for a officer to even bring up shooting him during a routine traffic violation stop.

Common sense, to me, is getting a feel for someone's mental state before I bring my firearm into conversation. Common courtsey is a 2 way street and one which this officer was not on

SMMAssociates
April 29, 2012, 04:23 AM
Officer Harless is now in the process of trying to get his job back.... Unfortunately, the PTB in Canton OH don't seem to have their heads on....

Here in OH, notification is mandatory, IF you're carrying. Many Officers don't know about that part.... Makes for a mess. Not to mention the law saying "promptly" without bothering to define it. 40 seconds? At least one case....

I've known quiet a few Campus LEO's locally (YSU's first Chief was friend of mine, as was his Top Sergeant, and many of his successors, as well as a couple of Officers, one of whom was my Best Man). 'Bout all I can say is that competition to get the jobs isn't quite as stiff.... The Chief also taught LE courses there, and had been YPD's Chief a few years before. (I'm a semi-retired rent-a-cop, among other things. With a few individual exceptions, I have considerable regard/respect for these guys and gals.)

However, any Officer who'd go with 2mph over a limit has some issues....

I would FOIA all material relevant to the stop - video and audio recordings, if any, reports, logs, dispatch logs, etc. And go to his superior immediately. This sort of complaint on his record, if unresolved, can't do the school any good at all if he manages to injure or kill anybody else later on....

If the in-car recording magically disappears, though, I think I'd be talking to my lawyer and the local paper.

All that said, we've only heard one side here. Don't jump to conclusions.

Regards,

Thylacine
April 29, 2012, 07:20 AM
I interpreted this story as a stipulation that the perp was going over the speed limit.
And that is an infraction for violating the law

Really? Do you really do think that way? The 'perp' was 2 miles over the speed limit. You would really write someone up for 2 mph over? I would never pull someone over for 2mph excess as the sole reason for contact.

I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.

(Are you certified? What agency did your eval?) As to why he did not inform, he did NOT have to do so by statute! I always assume everyone I deal with on a stop or a call ARE Armed. You really should too. Stops can go pear shaped in a heart beat.

If you have no doubt a police officer is really a police officer, why would you not tell him you are legally packing? I sure would. Why would you keep that a secret?
See above "... he did NOT have to do so by statute! "

PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.
I fail to see any reason for any annotation. We would have to have a real serious sit-down with someone for putting that crap on the info sheet. Fortunately I work with professionals and this has never been an issue.

As for the use of "Perp". Really??? It was a traffic stop.......:banghead:

Salmoneye
April 29, 2012, 08:08 AM
And THEN they will type something into your permanent online driving record: PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.

You're making it very difficult not to agree with Espada...

Try actually reading the first post in this thread...

bigfatdave
April 29, 2012, 08:56 AM
On the other hand, we now know what happened to Canton Officer Harless
armoredman, are you assuming that the OP was pulled over by Dan Harless, ot that shoobee is Dan Harless?

I'm confused.

4thPointOfContact
April 29, 2012, 09:10 AM
I would wager that "2mph" over falls within the officially recognized tolerance of error by the state of Kentucky, unless the location was within a school or residential zone.

It always pays to look these things up.

lemaymiami
April 29, 2012, 09:19 AM
I had a lot of mixed feelings about whether to chime in on this thread - finally decided that I'd talk a bit about what to do after the fact.... As a retired cop, and a former supervisor, then watch commander I've listened to more than a few officer complaints. Some were valid, many were not, quite a few were as much about attitude as anything else. At one point in my career I was actually our agency's internal affairs guy (not a job I'd recommend for anyone...).

On the street any citizen (armed or not) is very smart to "yes sir" and "no sir" the officer involved until their eyes glaze over. This is the exact advice I gave my son when he first began driving about nine years ago. Whatever difficulty you're in isn't going to get better if you talk back, argue, or otherwise point out the officer's failings.....

Now for the serious stuff... The only way any police outfit is going to know about how one of their officers is performing is by actual observation or what they hear from the general public. If the incident is minor (more about attitude than incompetence or actual wrong-doing) and you have some confidence in the supervisor or his/her agency then an informal complaint is in order. Find out who the officer's supervisor is and have a talk with them. It might work wonders or it might be a waste of time - you'll have to be the judge of that... An informal complaint might get recorded and become part of the officer's fitness report (something that's on-going in any competent agency) or it might never be noted anywhere...

If you decide it needs to be dealt with and made a matter of record then file a formal complaint with either the Chief or that agency's internal affairs (I.A. goes by many different names from "professional compliance" on down - or up..). A formal complaint will be taken in writing (and I'd ask for a copy of that initial complaint - or do it in writing and keep a copy for yourself). Many states have laws that require an open internal investigation be kept strictly confidential by all involved (including the complainant) until it's resolved. When the case is resolved I'd expect a written response from that agency outlining what they found and what they did....

Not all cops are in the right line of work and even a good officer can act improperly for one reason or other. If an officer generates complaints that are handled formally... they become part of his/her personnel record and will have a lot to do with whether they have a good career or get denied advancement, special jobs, and ultimately whether they keep their job if something serious occurs. On a solid department complaints result in re-training, closer supervision, and just maybe enough personal growth that a marginal officer becomes better over time. For the bad apples that don't change, formal complaints are how the outfit will eventually terminate the problem child....

Yes, there are departments that don't supervise their officers properly. Yes, there are outfits that encourage their officers to act aggressively (some of the video I've seen in police reality shows just makes me cringe....). Most, though, are very interested in how their cops are actually performing on the street. If you've had a bad encounter - report it and follow through. Whether you do it informally or go the formal route is up to you.

grasssnake
April 29, 2012, 09:31 AM
Sounds like the officer is afraid of concealed carry deadly weapon citizens.

theautobahn
April 29, 2012, 10:11 AM
I interpreted this story as a stipulation that the perp was going over the speed limit.

And that is an infraction for violating the law.

You have to be trolling because I find it hard to believe that anybody , nevermind one who frequents this site, would seriously think that pulling someone over for 2mph over the posted speed limit was justifiable. A friend is a cop in a town that locally has a reputation for low speeding tolerance, but a conversation with him revealed that in actuality, their chief is way more likely to call them on the floor for giving someone a ticket for 5mph over than letting someone go for 10mph over.

I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.

I make it a habit to talk to every police officer I meet about concealed carry and get their opinions. Thus far, without exception, all the cops I've talked to support it. And while they all recommend letting them know that you're legally armed in the course of a traffic stop, not one of them has said "you run the risk of getting shot" if you don't.



Go ahead and raise a stink on Monday. I am sure the police brass will put it all to rest.

And THEN they will type something into your permanent online driving record: PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.

Yeah, because every police administrator goes out of their way to provoke lawsuits.

Art Eatman
April 29, 2012, 10:31 AM
Too much wandering away from the points and questions raised by the OP. Granted, Shoobee's trolling didn't help matters any.

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