FFLs can ship a handgun UPS Ground?


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bikemutt
April 29, 2012, 10:16 AM
I just was notified a handgun I bought online has been shipped to my FFL. The service level is Ground and the estimated delivery date is consistent with ground service. Adult signature is required. The shipment is Interstate. Additionally the tracking information states the recipient is "Xyx GUNS & Ammo".

I had no idea FFLs could use ground service for Interstate shipping of handguns. I thought the rasison d'etre why UPS/FedEx require overnight service is to minimize the amount of time a gun languishes in their custody where it could be stolen. Furthermore, I always thought their should be nothing on the package to indicate the contents. I know that just because it says GUNS doesn't necessarily mean it is a gun, could be gun parts I suppose.

In any event, the shipment just seemed to me to go against two of the basic tenets of handgun shipping as I've come to know them.

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Taurus 617 CCW
April 29, 2012, 10:35 AM
As far as I knew (and have always done), all handguns go by air. Whether it be one, two, or three day. Here is a section on shipping handguns copied directly from their website.

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®.

Source: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

Bubbles
April 29, 2012, 10:38 AM
He probably didn't declare it as a handgun. We get a lot shipped in from FFL's that go ground with no insurance or signature required. We're home-based and it's quite disconcerting to open the front door and find a stack of rifles on the porch.

deadin
April 29, 2012, 11:37 AM
If the FFL was paying the shipping charges, I suppose they could "self insure" and figure an occasional loss could be covered by the savings in shipping costs. What would be interesting is if the recipient is paying the shipping, what did the sender charge them? Then the FFL could probably make up for any losses with ease......

Bubba613
April 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
An FFL may ship a handgun via USPS to another FFL. There is no further requirement.

mesinge2
April 29, 2012, 12:57 PM
FFLs do not have to ship next day air like the rest of us. USPS or Ground is perfectly legal and common for an FFL to use to ship a gun. Imagine the cost of a transfer it they had to ship next day. It'd be $100 to pick up your gun ($40 for the FFL and $60 for the shipping)

dogtown tom
April 29, 2012, 01:59 PM
mesinge2 FFLs do not have to ship next day air like the rest of us. USPS or Ground is perfectly legal and common for an FFL to use to ship a gun. Imagine the cost of a transfer it they had to ship next day. It'd be $100 to pick up your gun ($40 for the FFL and $60 for the shipping)
Nope.
FFL's get no special exemption from UPS or FedEx.

Do not get confused......both USPS and common carriers will accept rifles and shotguns for shipment from anyone. UPS and FedEx allow rifles and shotguns to go Ground....for ANYONE.

Licensed dealers can mail handguns through the USPS and mere mortals are restricted by law to rifles and shotguns only when mailing USPS.

When shipping via common carrier such as UPS or FedEx, ANYONE (FFL's and mortals) can choose any level of service they desire (Ground, 3 day, Next Day, Overnight, whatever) without violating Federal law.

If the common carrier's tariffs (shipping policies) say handguns must go "Overnight" and you decide to ship "Ground" you risk getting denied for any insurance claim for loss, damage or theft..........because you violated their policies. (It doesn't matter what the clerk at the UPS Store or FedEx told you)

While some high volume dealers may get an exemption from a common carrier, I've yet to see it. Even Bud's ships handguns UPS Next Day (and they aren't paying standard consumer rates). If Buds cant ship handguns Ground, quite likely no dealer has the exemption.

brickeyee
April 29, 2012, 02:25 PM
FFLs do not have to ship next day air like the rest of us. USPS or Ground is perfectly legal and common for an FFL to use to ship a gun.

Instead of blathering you might go read the terms of carriage form UPS or FedEx.

mesinge2
April 29, 2012, 02:36 PM
Thank you for the correction dogtown tom, I learned something. I was simply misinformed from my local UPS Store. They should better explain what is the law and what their policies state.


Also, thank you for the respectful tone brickeyee. It is clear you have a way with others.

Have a nice Sunday.

karlsgunbunker
April 30, 2012, 12:32 AM
He probably didn't declare it as a handgun. We get a lot shipped in from FFL's that go ground with no insurance or signature required. We're home-based and it's quite disconcerting to open the front door and find a stack of rifles on the porch.

Same here!

crracer_712
April 30, 2012, 01:47 PM
I asked about this to my FFL whom I do most of my trasnfer with. He said he called ATF and that they said they didn't care how a gun was shipped, FFL to FFL, and that the carreir may have the restrictions as to how it is shipped.

bikemutt
April 30, 2012, 02:18 PM
I asked about this to my FFL whom I do most of my trasnfer with. He said he called ATF and that they said they didn't care how a gun was shipped, FFL to FFL, and that the carreir may have the restrictions as to how it is shipped.
I don't think ATF cares how a gun is shipped by anyone as long as it's going to a FFL. Now if it's a handgun, USPS does not permit non-licensees to ship one period; UPS and FedEx have rules stating it must be sent using overnight service.

oneounceload
April 30, 2012, 04:49 PM
Even S&W uses Fedex air for returns of handguns sent to them for repair - it is the slowest form of air available and I am sure they get a nice discount for volume, but it is, nevertheless, by air

NavyLCDR
April 30, 2012, 04:54 PM
Even S&W uses Fedex air for returns of handguns sent to them for repair - it is the slowest form of air available and I am sure they get a nice discount for volume, but it is, nevertheless, by air
Thompson Center returns repaird firearms via UPS ground. At least to me they did.

brickeyee
April 30, 2012, 05:55 PM
Also, thank you for the respectful tone brickeyee. It is clear you have a way with others.



FFLs do not have to ship next day air like the rest of us.

Stating things as fact without even bothering to check the accuracy is not the way to "have a way" with others.

Some of us actually spend time learning before saying things.

bikemutt
April 30, 2012, 09:01 PM
The fact that some FFLs and gun manufacturers appear to routinely use FedEx and UPS ground services leads me to believe those carriers may very well make unpublished deals available to FFLs which they don't for non-licensees.

If that's the case then I think it's a bit of a stretch to cite minimizing the opportunity for theft as a reason to use their overnight service. I don't know where or when that claim grew legs but if it's accurate, I call steer manure :cuss:

dogtown tom
April 30, 2012, 10:46 PM
bikemutt The fact that some FFLs and gun manufacturers appear to routinely use FedEx and UPS ground services leads me to believe those carriers may very well make unpublished deals available to FFLs which they don't for non-licensees.
The fact that Bud's (who ships 200+ guns a week) doesn't use Ground for handguns, leads me to believe that no dealer, distributor or manufacturer gets an exemption from the overnight/next day requirement.

What they DO get is heavily discounted rates for Overnight/Next Day service.

Quite simply, those that ship handguns Ground do it because they haven't been caught.

mgkdrgn
April 30, 2012, 11:35 PM
I remember going through this on another site (FFL Only maybe?) and seem to recall that there are some distributors that are using 2nd day air rather than next day ... but you for sure had to be a major shipper to get that. Any Joe Blow or FFL is going to be told Next Day Air only.

But ... its a "carrier guideline", not a law, hence the carriers can do with it what they will.

medalguy
May 1, 2012, 12:20 AM
And that's the operative word, "guideline," not law. The law makes no distinction as to how firearms are to be shipped. The companies have their own rules and regulations, called "tariffs" within the industry. Those are the requirements of the carriers, and can require anything the carriers desire as long as it does not violate law.

Both Fedex and UPS, in their tariffs, require that handguns be sent overnight, for whatever reason you wish to ascribe to it. It may be to reduce the chance for theft, or it may be to increase revenue. It really doesn't matter, and if you wish to use the carrier, you must follow their tariffs. Otherwise, if the item disappears in transit, they will not honor any insurance.

bikemutt
May 1, 2012, 02:14 PM
I suppose if the contents of a package are undeclared with respect to what it is, and it's insured for a certain value, if UPS acknowledges losing it, who's to say it's not a rare book? Of course if they find it later the fur could really fly :D

Rule3
May 1, 2012, 02:32 PM
I just returned from mu LGS, FFL who has been in business 30 years.

He receives HANDGUNS from his distributors and from other FFL's by GROUND UPS, FED EX and also by overnight or two day air. He can of course also use USPS.

jmace57
May 3, 2012, 09:26 AM
I have a C&R License. I know it's not what the law says about USPS...and what UPS/FedEx policies say, but I have purchased 10 C&R handguns in the past year, and have received 6 by USPS, 2 by FedEx ground and 2 by UPS ground. I have never had an FFL send to me by overnight. The method has not been my choice, but what the dealer chose.

nryche
May 4, 2012, 02:11 PM
dogtown tom hit the nail on the head.. The reason Bud's ships overnight is they sell lots of guns and don't want to pay when something is lost or stolen. I don't know about FedEx, but can tell you that UPS will find every way not to pay a claim if they don't have to.. UPS/FedEx give special rate to large accounts that ship lots of packages. This helps then cut costs on shipping packages.

Its doesn't really matter if the box says gun or guns and ammo.. as long as it doesn't scream GUN on the box. In the life of a package moving from place to place.. Very few people in that system of transit ever see what the destination name or address is. AND if a theft occurs of a item. Iphone, Laptop, Gun, whatever.. UPS will find the person.. They keep a much closer eye on who has access to a package than you might think..

bikemutt
May 4, 2012, 08:04 PM
Well, good news all around, I picked up the gun at the FFL today, it's even nicer than I'd anticipated. The FFL says they get handguns in daily shipped ground.

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