[aerostar]

I am no handgun expert, but I think I know something about metal. I run into a guy in another forum claiming that all metal handgun, such as 92fs or sig 226, has to be re-lubes after two to three month time of none usage, when the last lube would evaporate, before the gun can reliably cycle again. I know a little bit gun oil always help, but all medal, especially steel on steel kind mating, running dry (but clean) is not a big deal. The guy even go so far to say he had cleaned a 92fs without oiling, the gun turns into bolt action, you have to manually pull the slide before you can shoot again.

I don't have any all steel hand gun so I can't dismiss his claim by try it myself, but does this sounds like yahoo to you? :confused:

[Nushif]

My Beretta runs dry quite well. As do all her clones or knockoffs. Beyond that,sadly I can give no data, as I may know \m/ METAL \m/ but not metal.

[mljdeckard]

I was issued a really bad M-9 that needed to be pampered to keep running, but it was because it was terribly worn. I would never say that it is any more or less likely to malfunction from running dry than nay other gun.

[Manson]

You're both right. Any handgun with full metal rails mated to a metal (steel stainless, alloys etc.) should be well lubed to prevent galling and premature wear. My 1911, Sigs, etc. are cleaned and the rails re-greased after every use. My Glocks just get a drop of oil on the tabs.

This is not to say that a well made won't run without lube. It can but it is not advisable. As to re-lubing I never do it. But my guns see a lot of use, cleaning and re-lubing.

[jfrey]

I have a friend who shoots both Sigs and a 92fs. The 92 will run fairly dry but the Sigs want and need more lube to run correctly. Any two metal surfaces that run against each other will run better with some amount of lube, even Glocks. It's just basic physics.

[Rule3]

As to the OP original statement, it depends on the gun lube used. Just because the gun sits unused does not mean the lube has evaporated and is no longer there. The new synthetic gun lubes will last indefinitely. I clean and lube my guns and put them away, it may be months before a certain one is shot again, I do not re lube it.

Go to the Sig web site and watch the really boring guy show how to lube a Sig:) The TW 25 is a a excellent lube.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/MaintenanceGuides.aspx

The Beretta site shows the new NANO being torture testing with no lube.
It is still a metal slide on metal rails.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/MaintenanceGuides.aspx

[JTQ]

Of course the Beretta and the Sig have steel slide riding on aluminum frames. Lube helps.

[coalman]

The more metal/metal contact, the more oil/lube (wet or dry type). Nothing new there. Why skimp?

[Shipwreck]

Beretta 92s do need more lube than a Glock. It is a gun that likes to be run wet.

I use Breakfree CLP. I do reoil my non carry 92s that I keep loaded about every three weeks. On the one I carry daily, I re-oil the rails 1x a week.

it takes me less than a minute to put more Breakfree CLP on a toothbrush and run it on the rails and the locking block.

I like Breakfree because it is one lube that I can use indoors without it bothering my asthma/allergies. I can't stand the smell of Weaponshield. remOil gives me a headache and gets me dizzy if I use it inside.

[Gtimothy]

I use "Action Lube Plus" on my Sig P229's slide and a "home brew" oil on the action parts. I've never has the grease evaporate and neither will a good gun oil. If you are using a "CLP" type lube, then yes you will probably have to re lube occasionally because it is such a light lubricant.

[aerostar]

Guys, first thanks all for your input. I am more educated now.

Before this thread turns into discuss of lube, let me emphasis that my question is not about whether or not we should or how to lube an all metal handgun. It is about if an all metal handgun is not lubed, will it cease to function reliably for a while? say, a self defense situation. For a holstered gun, gun oil does seem to slipping away and mess up the holster somehow.

What I don't understand is what this guy claimed: A 92FS, when cleaned but not oiled, it turns to be a bolt action handgun. one shot, one hand assist for recycle. His point is that all metal handgun are not good for self defense because, with his assertion, you wouldn't sure if the gun has enough lube left, hence prone to jam. I think this is Bull.

I am no 92FS fan, neither am I a Sig one. But beyond my understanding of metals, those firearms are decent firearms that made by reputable manufacturer and they are fielded with numerous soldiers around the world. Hearing what this guy said really challenges my intelligence.

[Manson]

I don't know what the situation is with this particular gun. When someone says a gun likes to run wet that means it is less likely to malfunction if properly lubricated. But not run at all? Not sure. But my guess is that there are other issues with the firearm that are made worse by the lack of lube.

The statement that all metal weapons are not good for this reason is silly. No weapon will be as reliable as it is capable of being without proper maintenance.

[PO2Hammer]

I bought a used P226 and took it straight to the range and had feeding problems. The rails were bone dry. No problems with a little oil or light grease. Tried lithium grease form the hardware store (the thick stuff) and that caused trouble too.
Switched to Enos' Slide Glide Lite and never had trouble again.

[balance 740]

I used to carry a Beretta 90-two. After hearing about how these pistols needed to be lubed to run good, I took all the lube off the pistol with a can of brake cleaner, and put 150 rounds of dirty and weak range ammo through the pistol to see if it would make a difference in reliability. It didn't, in mine at least.

I just wanted to know if my Beretta would run reliably if for some reason the lube dried out in my carry pistol. I found out. I never carry more than one spare mag. I have never carried 150 rounds of ammo when carrying concealed.

I think any pistol with long guide rails on the frame like a Sig 226 or a Beretta 92 will need more lube than a pistol with small tabs on the frame like a Glock. But I also believe the "they need to be lubed to run" can be a little exaggerated in some cases.

[Shipwreck]

I have never tried tor un any of my nine 92s dry.

However, I have seen lots of reports online of guys who had a 92 not work for them on a range trip. Come to find out - they put no oil on it.

I would never try shooting a 92 without it being lubed.

[balance 740]

I would never try shooting a 92 without it being lubed.

Why not?

I wouldn't think any damage or noticeable wear could come from only 150 rounds. If any did, I personally wouldn't want to own a pistol that delicate.

I'm not recommending that people do this, but there is only one way to find out if you really want to know. I did the same thing with a Beretta Cougar I used to carry when I heard the same thing about it's rotating barrel needing lube. It ran perfectly well as well.

[EddieNFL]

Couple of months ago a fellow was using a 92 in an IDPA match. He was having a malfunction every three or four rounds. He mentioned he had cleaned it the night before and couldn't remember applying lube. He went to the safe area, oiled her up and didn't have another problem.

[1KPerDay]

IMO the beretta will handle neglect better than the 226. the 226 has full length rails and isn't as ball-bearing smooth as the 92 thanks to its different locking mechanism. Plus I like the 226 so much I'd never run it without oil or grease. I've let it get dirty and have never had problems. but there's always been at least a little oil remaining.

the beretta feels good even without any oil. maybe due to the anodizing/paint/whatever on the slide that may act as some sort of self-lubricant.

[The Lone Haranguer]

The guy even go so far to say he had cleaned a 92fs without oiling, the gun turns into bolt action, you have to manually pull the slide before you can shoot again.
:scrutiny:
Any pistol needs proper lubrication, but your friend makes it sound much worse than it really is. This doesn't happen unless the action totally rusted shut or something. It will certainly "run" for a shorter time unlubricated.

[zoom6zoom]

As said, it depends a lot on the quality of the lubrication, the environment, and if the lube was put in the correct places to start with.

There is an excellent thread on SIG lubrication over on SIGforum which I highly recommend.
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/908103701

[Shipwreck]

Why not?

Better question... WHY?

I want the gun to work. I use them for self defense. One of my 92s is my carry gun. I do not want to introduce any doubt as to the reliability of the gun. I keep it lubed to work 100%

This whole topic is silly, personally. The gun has gone thru torture tests in the past - but running a metal framed gun with no lube is ridiculous

[balance 740]

Better question... WHY?

I stated why I did it, to make sure the pistol would still function if the lube dried out after being carried for a while without adding any extra lube.

EddieNFL stated an example of someone who forgot to add lube after cleaning the pistol. It happens to people sometimes.

I do not want to introduce any doubt as to the reliability of the gun.

This is why.

[Shipwreck]

I understand that - what I am saying is that I would never intentionally do it. And, I already assume that it (the gun) would not work when dry. I've been on the beretta forum since 2005, and I have nine 92s myself (and many more years ago)

[balance 740]

I think you have the best method of doing it Shipwreck. I do think the best thing to do is to keep the pistol lubed, no matter what pistol it is, and I would never intentionally carry a pistol without lube just for the heck of it.

I was just saying that this is not always the case:

The guy even go so far to say he had cleaned a 92fs without oiling, the gun turns into bolt action, you have to manually pull the slide before you can shoot again.


I would assume that all of them would function like mine did, but I guess that is not always the case either with some of the reports in this thread. I don't know why mine worked fine while others didn't.

[brigadier]

I HAD a Beretta 92FS that was stolen from me and still have a custom one in 10mm Auto.

The Aluminum on the Beretta likes to get sticky and hold the slide in place under damp-cold weather. I was able to eliminate this problem by very slightly loosening the tolerances on the slide rails with a fine grit sandpaper. Without this fix, I can easily see any kind of stickiness or obstruction in the action causing it to stop up.

The actual causes for allot of well known problems with firearms are very often different then the commonly believed cause, which is usually the result of only conventional thinking as opposed to careful study in to the problem.

One of the most common examples is the separating of the Beretta slide, which is famously believed to be the result of a weak and flimsy slide, where the truth is that it was the result of a fatal imbalance in the slide configuration that has since been fixed.

My experience is that most guns will work OK without lube for a decent amount of shots. However, synthetic frame guns, just by the nature of the material tend to be less sensitive to poor or no lube then steel or aluminum frame guns.

Regarding the lubrication problem your friend described, I guess it depends to some degree upon how it's stored, what lube you use and how the lubrication was done, but I generally agree with him that if your gun has been sitting for over a month, the first thing you should do after clearing and checking the action is to clean and relube it regardless.

[JustinJ]

There is no blanket answer to the question "will all guns X do Y without Z". Even guns of the exact same model from the same maker will have slight variances. Some models will simply be more prone to stoppages without lube. So if you have 100 92Fs and 100 Glock 17s and shoot 100 rounds through each without lube there I think it a safe bet the Glocks will demonsrate significantly more reliability. Individual anecodotal experiences with one gun do not accurately represent how the model performs on the whole.

[Rule3]

Talk about a thread going no where:rolleyes:

What does the OP mean by "all metal" gun? Is aluminum or alloy not a metal?

As I posted previously if you use a good lube on the slide and rails it is not going any where. If there is any doubt use a light grease if it makes you feel better, Any carry gun should be field strip and checked over of dirt, lint, run you finger over the lubed areas, it's still there.

[aerostar]

JustinJ, my point exactly. The guy may have an unlucky 92FS, that's all. Using that experience and make a judgement on other similar gun with the same assertion is absurd.

Rule3, "all metal" is opposite to "plastic" gun. So yes, alloy are considered as "metal". Aluminum frame in general are not very friendly with steel slides. However, with different coating and surface treatment, some are very friendly with steel. The steel on steel are a good choice for sliding.

I have no doubt of what grease/oil can do to guns, I am just not accepting an assertion that 92FS or Sig 226 can't run dry. And I want to know if I am alone on this one. Seems that we are all in the same page.

Thanks guys.

[EddieNFL]

:scrutiny:
Any pistol needs proper lubrication, but your friend makes it sound much worse than it really is. This doesn't happen unless the action totally rusted shut or something. It will certainly "run" for a shorter time unlubricated.

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't exaggerate; I was watching. No rust, just didn't want to run dry. :scrutiny:

[mljdeckard]

I have seen some issued guns that could have been this bad, in a terrible environment with little or no care. But they were guns that were so worn as to technically be unserviceable, and shouldn't be issued at all. They had more problems than just that. This was due to institutional neglect, not any regular use any shooter will put it through in a lifetime.

[Rule3]

JustinJ, my point exactly. The guy may have an unlucky 92FS, that's all. Using that experience and make a judgement on other similar gun with the same assertion is absurd.

Rule3, "all metal" is opposite to "plastic" gun. So yes, alloy are considered as "metal". Aluminum frame in general are not very friendly with steel slides. However, with different coating and surface treatment, some are very friendly with steel. The steel on steel are a good choice for sliding.

I have no doubt of what grease/oil can do to guns, I am just not accepting an assertion that 92FS or Sig 226 can't run dry. And I want to know if I am alone on this one. Seems that we are all in the same page.

Thanks guys.
A lot of plastic or polymer guns have metal guides. It makes no difference if the frame is space age plastic, Guns can run extremely dry. There is still enough lube on the slide or rail even if you do not see it. Teflon and the other synthetics are still there. I do not think it wise to deliberate run them with nothing but a little goes a long way. That's why I mention the NANO in my first reply. It is a polymer gun with a internal metal frame so it's still metal on metal.The FNP and FNX are other examples.

[aerostar]

Rule3, there are a lot misconception during the discussion, here and there. But what this guy, and I, means about "plastic gun" is the kind of polymer frame with steel insert. Although technically the "plastic" guns are still more or less steel on steel kind contact, the insert are usually divided into two per side so the slide would not ride on a long continuous rail on frame, such as 92FS and Sig226 does. Beside, the inserts are usually having higher clearance with the slides so they are naturally less likely to cause jam. Neither that guy and I are newbie of firearms, so we are kinda leaving these kind of detail out during the discussion. Sorry for not clearing this out upfront.

[Rule3]

Yes, I realize that. I have both Sigs, Glock, HK whatever. The point is about the lube "evaporating"
If they ride on full length slides or partial (Glock HK) the lube is still there metal to metal. It doesn't matter.

I just pulled a Glock and a Sig that has not been shoot for probably a year and the lube is still there,

I would shoot them today for a full range session and not do anything before hand. Again, it depends entirely on what lube is used. These have Mil Com TW 25 on them but any of the new synthetics will work.

[DoomGoober]

I do notice that CLP, in particular, seems to "run" downhill. If I put my lightly lubed 226 on a paper towel for say, two months, the "down" side of the outside of the gun will collect a fair amount of CLP and the paper towel will be a little bit wet. The "up" side will be dry.

[ku4hx]

What I don't understand is what this guy claimed: A 92FS, when cleaned but not oiled, it turns to be a bolt action handgun. one shot, one hand assist for recycle. His point is that all metal handgun are not good for self defense because, with his assertion, you wouldn't sure if the gun has enough lube left, hence prone to jam. I think this is Bull.

Why people make certain claims is pretty much a function of what they believe to be true, what they've been told is true and what they've experienced.

I had a friend (now deceased from natural causes) that believed a .25 Auto was sufficient for bear. No amount of talk could convince him he needed a more powerful gun.

People believe what they're going to believe and changing a mind is nowhere near as simple as changing a tire.

[JustinJ]

Metal rubbing against metal will last a very long time unless it's just grinding or one part has a very rough surface. Slide parts and rails are made to be smooth so often they will not ever wear even if it's a super cheap gun.

Metal on metal will always wear with or without lube if friction is present. How long it will take is determined by many variables but it will happen. The type of metal, finish, tolerance, temps, etc will all influence wear rates. Bearings are a perfect example. They are designed to roll and be as smooth as possilble but run them dry and you'll see just how quickly they wear down.

I want all my guns to outlast me so at the range i run them on the wet side. For concealed carry i use lube more sparingly. I think if a gun can run dry it is a testament to its overall reliablity as any machine will work if you put enough lube in it. However, for the sake of durablity i always use lube.

[holdencm9]

I agree with JustinJ, a firearm should be ABLE to run dry, but just because it can doesn't mean you should. My Beretta 92FS can run dry with robust ammo, but start to run too dry with weak UMC range ammo, coupled with a newish recoil spring, and it starts to short-cycle a bit and jam. Now, this only happened once or twice before I realized that

(a) Remington UMC is underpowered junk ammo
(b) My 92FS likes to run a bit on the wet side

I have tested it pretty dry, with SD ammo, and it is fine. It is just the combination of dry/weak ammo/stiff spring that it doesn't like. And of course lube will lead to a long and healthy life for it so I try to dab an extra drop or two every now and then anyway.

[joecil]

I carried a Beretta 92 for 4 years and it often go dry. It didn't seem to effect the gun at all as it aways went bang when I pulled the trigger. I like the gun for the most part so much I went out and bought a Taurus PT 92 which is basically the same gun with some improvements though not as good a finish. I've put about 4000 rounds of everything from target to +P SD stuff through it and never a single failure. I've been using Break Free CLP and tetra grease for years now on all my guns with no problems even the "plastic guns". I do clean my guns after every session at the range (probably monthly for each gun) as I hit the range one or two times a week with 1 gun so I rotate them. CLP and Tetra seem to work well together especially with tetra on the slide rails.

[FMF Doc]

Lot of factors in play: exactly what metals are we talking about, temperature, humidity, the lubricant used, etc... I think he was to sound more authoritative than he actually was.

[TonyAngel]

aerostar, I've seen similar threads on this and other forums asking the same question of AR-15s. The responses were similar as well.

My take on this (and it's just my opinion) is that a firearm should run be able to run dry, if all of the parts are correctly fitted (for a "working" firearm). I qualified that last statement because I've had, and seen, many custom race guns that were fitted tight for accuracy and needed that extra little bit of slickness offered by lube to make them reliable.

As a general matter, as I said, I believe that a "working" firearm should be able to run dry. The question is, how long will it run without lube. It seems to me that lube accomplishes a few different things. First, it is a rust preventative. Even stainless firearms will rust if the environment is harsh enough.

The second reason becomes more important the more you shoot the firearm since it's last cleaning. As we all know, the more you shoot a gun, the dirtier it gets. One of the things that lube does is to provide a medium by which crud, dirt, etc. can be displaced, so that things don't get jammed up.

The last thing that lube does is, well, provide lubrication. The fact of the matter is that if you rub two things together, sooner or later, there's going to be wear. Lubrication reduces the amount of wear that takes place.

One thing that I do not use on my firearms, especially in places that are subjected to both a lot of friction and crud build up, is grease. Although grease lubricates and provides for protection against corrosion, it isn't much good at displacing crud. It stays where you put it.

I mean think about. Say you take a hand full of grease and mix it with a hand full of sand. What do you get? For all practical purposes, you have a lapping/polishing compound that will take off steel. I know, because I've done exactly that to make a form of rough polishing compound.

You guys that ride dirt bikes and four wheelers in should might know what I'm talking about with bearings.

[YankeeFlyr]

I use Lubriplate on the locking block, rails and barrel ribs in my 92FS, and on the rails, hammer and locking ribs of my 1911.

The same stuff I use on the M1A and M1 Garand. Never had it disappear.

[Old Shooter]

His point is that all metal handgun are not good for self defense because, with his assertion, you wouldn't sure if the gun has enough lube left, hence prone to jam.

Mayby I should start my next business running a mod shop installing dip sticks on handguns. :)