What's the difference between luger and parabellum?


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McNutt
February 17, 2004, 01:02 PM
This may be a dumb question but what is the difference between 9x19, 9mm luger, and 9mm parabellum?

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spacemanspiff
February 17, 2004, 01:05 PM
no difference.

there are different types of 9mm though. 9x18, 9x23, couple others as well....9x17? 9x21?

i think the 9x19 was designed by the germans, which explains being called the 9mm luger.

Mk VII
February 17, 2004, 01:05 PM
there isn't any. The Luger name (actually a Stoeger trademark) got popular in America and the Parabellum (DWM's telegraphic address) got used in Europe

McNutt
February 17, 2004, 01:08 PM
Thanks. I didn't think there was a difference, but I wanted to be sure as I'm ordering my first 9mm soon.

cidirkona
February 17, 2004, 02:37 PM
What's the length of a .380?

-Colin

jrhead75
February 17, 2004, 02:42 PM
Just to add a little to the above: "Parabellum" is Latin for "For War", as it was designed from the ground up as a service round.

Jim Diver
February 17, 2004, 02:58 PM
The Parabellum name comes from the ancient Latin saying si vis pacem, para bellum: "if you want peace, prepare for war".

BHPshooter
February 17, 2004, 03:05 PM
What's the length of a .380?

.380 is 9x17mm. It is also called 9mm Kurz and 9mm Browning Short.

Then there's 9mm Makarov, aka 9x18mm (even though it's more like 9.2mm).

The most popular is what is generally just referred to as 9mm. This is the same as 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO, and 9x19mm.

From there it gets more confusing, as there's other calibers that can be considered 9mm, like 9x21mm, 9x23mm, .38 special, .357 magnum, and .38 super. The differences of all of these are case length, bullet weight, and whether they are rimmed (for use in a revolver) or not.

Wes

Majic
February 17, 2004, 03:09 PM
The Luger name came from the inventer of the cartridge and the first pistol, the P-08, to use the cartridge, Georg Luger.

Samurai Penguin
February 17, 2004, 04:02 PM
Bouncing off this topic, and being somewhat of an Foolish New Guy when it comes to things that go bang...is there anywhere on the web or in the bookstore that explains all the different cartridges, calibers and whatnot? "OK, a .357 can shoot .38's, but a .44 Special isn't the same as a .44 Mag except on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is in Libra..." :confused:

Sheesh. I thought learning my way around Honda V-4 carbs was hard...!!

Dr.Rob
February 17, 2004, 04:09 PM
And to add to your confusion, Georg Luger was Swiss.

Baba Louie
February 17, 2004, 04:20 PM
Samurai,
"Cartridges of the World" by Frank Barnes should do you right, available online at a lot of places.

Sunray
February 17, 2004, 04:39 PM
"...but a .44 Special isn't the same as a .44 Mag..." No, but you can shoot a .44 Spec in a .44 mag handgun any time you like. Not the reverse though.

Peetmoss
February 17, 2004, 04:44 PM
"but a .44 Special isn't the same as a .44 Mag except on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is in Libra..." "

But a 44mag will shoot 44 specials all day long:D

However it is always a good bet to only use ammo tht your firearm is specificly marked for. When in dought ASK. And I don't mean the guy behind the counter ask the manufacture of your firearm. However once you learn the common names for the ammo you are buying you can have alot of fun with the guy at the counter at Wally World Here's an interesting site about ammunition (http://ammoguide.com/)

cidirkona
February 17, 2004, 05:00 PM
I thought "parabellum" meant "a plane curve generated by a point moving so that its distance from a fixed point is equal to its distance from a fixed line"

... oh wait...

The shape of a standard FMJ 9mm is a parabola, right?

-Colin

:p :neener:

arinvolvo
February 17, 2004, 05:55 PM
that was what i have always thought about para.

Samurai Penguin
February 17, 2004, 06:07 PM
Thanx, Peetmoss & Baba Louie!

I figured someone would know...!!

Greybeard
February 17, 2004, 09:35 PM
Since no one seems to have said it yet, the diameter of one of 'em is .355 and the other is ... .355! :D

Paul "Fitz" Jones
February 17, 2004, 10:22 PM
I sold my calif. Saeco 9mm bullet molds to have the cast lead bullets sized .356 and the .38/.357 for .358 now jacketed bullets are a thousanths smaller.

John Paul

Founding Saeco Distributor retired

Ala Dan
February 17, 2004, 10:59 PM
Hell , you know what? I use all those designations:
9X19, 9m/m Luger, and 9m/m Parabellum.
In my writings here on THR, I probably use the
word Parabellum most often?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

cidirkona
February 18, 2004, 05:28 PM
My CCW training guy said that the differences between .357 and .38's measurments come to be due to measurements from land-to-land and groove-to-groove. I dont' know if this is applicable or what, but umm... yeah...

-Colin

Mike Irwin
February 18, 2004, 08:56 PM
""OK, a .357 can shoot .38's, but a .44 Special isn't the same as a .44 Mag except on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is in Libra..."


HEY! Look at that! You've already got half a Fizbinn!

racenutz
February 19, 2004, 02:36 AM
Sheesh. I thought learning my way around Honda V-4 carbs was hard...!!

Speaking of a former owner of a V45 Saber, if you can figure that out you will have no problems with cartridge nomenclature.

gvass
February 19, 2004, 07:00 AM
hi,
officially the "9 mm Luger" designation is the civilian name by CIP standards.
The 9 mm Parabellum is the military one.

But who cares?

Scoob
February 19, 2004, 07:28 AM
Samurai- Check out www.ammoguide.com. It may be helpful.

RON in PA
February 19, 2004, 11:12 AM
Nichts!

Brian Williams
February 19, 2004, 01:38 PM
There is no difference between the 9mm luger and 9mm parabellem
but there are many different 9mm/.355 cartridges
9x17 AKA 9mm kurz, 380 auto
9x18 AKA 9mm makarov
9x19 AKA luger, parabellem,
9x21
9x21.5 AKA S&W 9mmTSW
9x23
38 super, has a 355 bullet

The following all have 357/358 diameter bullets
38 short colt, shortest
38 special, middle length
357 magnum, longest
357 maximum, longer still

My CCW training guy said that the differences between .357 and .38's measurments come to be due to measurements from land-to-land and groove-to-groove. I dont' know if this is applicable or what, but umm... yeah...

Stupid CCW training guy


There are probably a dozen more cartridges in 9mm but this covers the basics.

cidirkona
February 19, 2004, 06:28 PM
The CCW training guy said that the bullets were all the same 9mm size, and the barrels were the same diameter, but the different numbers just come from different places inside the barrel...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=809447

-Colin

Majic
February 19, 2004, 08:51 PM
The CCW training guy said that the bullets were all the same 9mm size, and the barrels were the same diameter, but the different numbers just come from different places inside the barrel
Actually the .38 predates the 9mm. It's name derives from the days when it was a heeled bullet and was .38" in diameter. Later it was changed and the lube grooves could then fit inside of the case and became a .357" diameter. Your CCW guy needs to brush up on his cartridge history.

Paul "Fitz" Jones
February 19, 2004, 10:51 PM
There can be all kinds of opinions and all the opinionators ought to read their reloading manuals and the diameters of the major bullet companies bullets and the weapons manufacturers stated calibers that the manuals write about.

I have sold thousands of progressive and other reloaders, bullet molds and only sold the standard posted sizes in the literature available to meM my sales were for lead bullets in Saeco and Star lubers and I only stocked .356 for 9mm, .358 for .38/357, .410 for .41 mag, .430 for .44Spl,. 429 for .44mag and .452 for .45acp. I advised anyone wanting a different diameter could look somwhere else for them.

The differences between the 44spl and the .44magnum was because of the much higher pressures generated in the magnum required in my opinion a thousanths smaller bullet.

I do have some experience in the shooting industry

Zundfolge
February 19, 2004, 11:32 PM
there are many different 9mm/.355 cartridges
9x17 AKA 9mm kurz, 380 auto
9x18 AKA 9mm makarov
9x19 AKA luger, parabellem,
9x21
9x21.5 AKA S&W 9mmTSW
9x23
38 super, has a 355 bullet

The following all have 357/358 diameter bullets
38 short colt, shortest
38 special, middle length
357 magnum, longest
357 maximum, longer still

Then (you might want to duck because here comes another monkey wrench) you have the Walther PP Super chambered in 9x18 AKA 9mm Police AKA 9mm Ultra but its NOT the same as the 9x18 Makarov (confusing isn't it) :neener:
The 9x18 Police is 9.02 mm in diameter whereas the Makarov is 9.2mm. I understand there is also a 9x18 Makarov Modified (sort of a 9mm Mak +p+) but I don't know much about it.


I gotta go lie down now :scrutiny:

BluesBear
February 20, 2004, 12:07 AM
cidirkona,

Since the bullets in a .357 Magnum/Maximum, .38 Speclal/Long Colt/Short Colt are .357" if the the land diameter was only .357 then the bullets would just skim down the lands, not engaging the rifling ang the gasses blowing past in the grooves.


Also, the Makarov uses a .360" bullet and loses most of it's accuracy if loaded with .355" bullets.

MikeHaas
June 3, 2004, 05:27 PM
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/9mms4045.jpg (http://AmmoGuide.com/)

Mike Haas
http://AmmoGuide.com/

cidirkona
June 3, 2004, 07:35 PM
Why isn't .380 in there? (9x17, right?)

-Colin

shep854
June 3, 2004, 09:38 PM
Parabellum-"Prepare for war" That settles it! The 9mm Para is a practice round! Sez so on the label!

Get a .45 ACP for the real thing!:D :rolleyes:

MikeHaas
June 3, 2004, 10:39 PM
>Why isn't .380 in there? (9x17, right?)

I've corrected the blatent oversight, please forgive. :rolleyes:

Mike Haas

roscoe
June 3, 2004, 11:57 PM
Parabelum: from latin: si vis pacem, para bellum

tz99
June 4, 2004, 05:52 AM
Ok then wheres the .357 sig fit in?

shep854
June 4, 2004, 09:06 AM
tz99 wrote, "OK, where does the .357 Sig fit in?"

It doesn't. Since it's a .40 cartridge necked down to 9mm, rather than straight or tapered, it would require a new category of cartridges.

ASIDE: I remember arguing with a person, otherwise knowlegeable, who insisted that "parabellum" is based on "parabola", ie, the curved shape of the bullet. Problem is, all bullets have a parabola shape of some sort.

cruffler
June 4, 2004, 09:19 AM
Actually, only the ogival ones do. A wadcutter isn't parabolic in shape.

To make matters worse, the original M1908 9x19mm loading specified a 124 grain bullet with a truncated cone shape - which again isn't parabolic.

Sean Smith
June 4, 2004, 09:44 AM
Problem is, all bullets have a parabola shape of some sort.

Not by a long shot. Ever seen a wadcutter, semi wadcutter, truncated cone...?

MikeHaas
June 4, 2004, 11:48 AM
>Ok then wheres the .357 sig fit in?

Added the .357 SIG to the graphic above. As stated, it is radically different than any of the other rounds discussed here...

From ammoguide: The .357 SIG was officially announced in the summer of 1994, a joint project by SIG Arms and Federal to modify the .40 S&W to use 125gr 9mm bullets. The result is a small, bottle-necked cartridge tailored for auto-loaders with ballistics that compare favorably with the classic but much larger .357 Remington Magnum.

The bottle-neck shape is particularly well-suited to feeding reliably in semi-auto pistols, an important consideration for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.

The .357 SIG's maximum working pressure of 40,000 psi is 5,000 psi greater than .40 S&W, and the lower-wall of .357 SIG cases are correspondingly stronger.

.40 S&W pistols are easily converted to .357 SIG by simple barrel replacement. Despite the similarities, however, the cartridges have different headspacing and interior wall profiles.

A February 1996 HANDGUNS article concluded "Even though it generated the second highest muzzle energy, [.357 SIG: 536 ft/lbs; 10mm: 584 ft/lbs], of the four [guns] we tried, it seemed easily the most pleasant to shoot, and both of us shot it fast and well." Reloaders are cautioned to insure that the short case mouth grips the bullet securely during recoil.

The standard .357 SIG ammo sports a 125 grain 9mm bullet with a muzzle velocity oft 1350 fps, 510 ft/lbs of energy.

BTW, the tool to generate those images (and case dimensions and more) is at http://AmmoGuide.com/ - look on the right side for "Visual Comparison Tool".

With that and a paint program (to copy & paste the images), you're all set.

Mike Haas

cruffler
June 4, 2004, 11:54 AM
I love how SIG-Sauer takes credit for the .357 SIG - as though they've invented the wheel, sliced bread, and sex.

Guess they never heard of the 7.63mm Mauser, the 7.65mm Parabellum or the 8mm Nambu. . . .

But then, you listen to Beretta's spew about the CX4 Storm long enough and you tend to forget about things like the Villar Perosa and the Bergmann MP18i as well.

Ahh, well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

MikeHaas
June 4, 2004, 01:12 PM
>Guess they never heard of the 7.63mm Mauser, the 7.65mm Parabellum or the 8mm Nambu

Displayed (7.63 Mauser = .30 Mauser, 7.65mm Para=.30 Luger) below, and a few more...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/moresemiauto.jpg (http://ammoguide.com/)

Mike Haas

cruffler
June 4, 2004, 01:45 PM
I think I love you.

MikeHaas
June 4, 2004, 01:58 PM
>I think I love you.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words... and maybe more! :p

Mike

cruffler
June 4, 2004, 03:20 PM
Well .. .. it's like this. .. . .

How many of you can say that you PROUDLY own a Benelli B80?

jAK-47
June 4, 2004, 03:36 PM
I once had a really bad case of pneumonia. Man, talk about Gross Lugers!

But seriously, giving different names to ammo that is confusing enough is, confusing. When I bought my first AK I almost bought 7.62 ammo. Then I found out that usually, when you say 7.62 it's assumed you mean NATO and that's .308. 7.62 NATO = .308 whereas AK 7.62 is 7.62X39.

My CZ-52 just arrived at my FFL and I'm going to pick it up. Now that I know better to do a little research on these things I won't be stupid enough to try and put my AK or FAL rounds into my new pistol:rolleyes: Instead, I bought 7.62X25 ammo from Natchez (got the very last 4 boxes). CTD just got in a BUNCH of it so...

Asking about 9X19 vs. Parabellum was NOT a stupid question. If a stupid question is going to be asked I'll do it:D

I took 5 years of Latin and it does my heart good to see it didn't go to waste! veni, vidi, shoti - I came, I saw, I shot

Thanks,
jAK-47

cruffler
June 4, 2004, 03:38 PM
You don't really want to start the whole "7.62x51mm NATO Does Not Equal .308 Winchester" thread, do you?

Suffice it to say that the two are not the same.

MikeHaas
June 4, 2004, 04:24 PM
>You don't really want to start the whole "7.62x51mm NATO Does Not Equal .308 Winchester" thread, do you?

Absolutely not. No way. Uh-uh. However... :rolleyes:

>Suffice it to say that the two are not the same.

Insofar as military ammo and civilian ammo differ in some pretty major respects, agreed. But after getting permission, Winchester commercialized the .308 Win from the 7.62 NATO spec. The external case dimensions, throat, rifling, are the same despite designation, are they not? And I don't know of a .308 commercial firearm that can't digest 7.62 NATO ammo, do you?

Internally, there are major differences, granted. Commercial brass provides more case volume than military, for example, and one needs to know about such things when reloading. But are you saying that the .308 Win and 7.62 NATO are in some way MORE DIFFERENT than the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO?

Mike

modifiedbrowning
June 5, 2004, 02:49 AM
HEY! Look at that! You already got half a Fizbinn!

Mike, I just want a piece of the action.;)

shep854
June 5, 2004, 08:09 AM
Cruffler, Sean, et al;

I never claimed to be a geometry whiz, my grades proved that! :D

As long as they feed, and go where I want 'em, I'm satisfied.

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