Please be Careful


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jungle
April 29, 2012, 03:48 PM
I have now witnessed two negligent discharges in two gunshops, and I don't spend very much time in gunshops.

The first was a counter person demonstrating the qualities of a magazine disconnect on his loaded Smith 639 9mm, I was standing a few feet away when the salesman fired the pistol between the faces of the customer and himself. I foolishly had my back turned and had to look down and check for hits. Fortunately the round went into a wall.

Yesterday was a real crowd pleaser, a person behind the counter was for some reason handling his loaded FN SCAR rifle, from ten feet away I watched him cycle the bolt and then pull the trigger. This is a very nice old line shop with almost every type of fine firearm in stock. Most of the staff are very knowledgeable.
There were about ten people in the shop and the line of the muzzle was just a foot behind two and pointed in the general direction of three at the far end of the shop. The only thing that saved lives was at the last second he elevated the muzzle towards the ceiling.

The blast and concussion in that small space was terrific, I found myself in a low crouch with my eyes just over the counter before I could fully understand what had happened.

Please follow the four rules at all times:


The rules of gun safety follow from this mindset. There are many variations, and one of them is the Four Rules introduced by Colonel Jeff Cooper, which are:

1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
—Jeff Cooper

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SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 03:58 PM
Holy crap!

Remind me to NEVER go gun shopping in Florida!
:what:

Around here, it's a general policy to never have a firearm and ammo on the counter at the same time.
It's not a law or anything, but I think it's a reasonable idea.

jungle
April 29, 2012, 04:02 PM
Please note that in both cases the firearms were owned and operated by the staff. Normally this is the only time you will see any loaded guns in any shop.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 04:06 PM
Please note that in both cases the firearms were owned and operated by the staff. Normally this is the only time you will see any loaded guns in any shop.

That's pretty darn scary man!
And "Staff" of ALL people should know better than that!
Can you just imagine the law suits flying if someone had been hit?
The costs could have been enough to completely bankrupt and close down a mom & pop shop for sure!

Rail Driver
April 29, 2012, 04:18 PM
These kinds of things happen EVERYWHERE, not just in Florida. Also, they can happen to ANYONE, not just the uninformed or ignorant. Even the most highly trained, safest, most careful person can have a negligent discharge.

It's important to ALWAYS follow the 4 rules, no matter who you are or where you're from.

jungle
April 29, 2012, 04:22 PM
The lesson here is that you must of course be very aware of your own muzzle, but it is equally important to be very aware of all those around you, needless to say this incident was a good learning experience for a few people. The lesson could have been far more costly. Many of us seem to need a wake up call now and then.

Don't be that guy.


I have been fired at by men shooting at me and others in the general area with the clear intent to produce bodily harm with a belt fed 12.7mm, I found that to be hilarious once under suitable cover, the NDs aren't funny.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 04:43 PM
These kinds of things happen EVERYWHERE, not just in Florida. Also, they can happen to ANYONE, not just the uninformed or ignorant. Even the most highly trained, safest, most careful person can have a negligent discharge.

It's important to ALWAYS follow the 4 rules, no matter who you are or where you're from.

I was just kidding about the "Florida" part.
You're right.
It can happen ANYWHERE!
No doubt about that.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 04:45 PM
The lesson here is that you must of course be very aware of your own muzzle, but it is equally important to be very aware of all those around you, needless to say this incident was a good learning experience for a few people. The lesson could have been far more costly. Many of us seem to need a wake up call now and then.

Don't be that guy.


Exactly!

It's very good to hear you were not hurt!

JSpear
April 29, 2012, 04:48 PM
Wow!! I'm glad no one got hurt! And thanks for posting, it's always a good idea to refresh the mind on the four rules.

toivo
April 29, 2012, 05:04 PM
This might sound harsh, but I believe that both those individuals should lose their jobs.

I can completely understand why someone who works in a gun shop would be carrying a loaded handgun. I can't imagine why he would handle it unless he was defending himself or someone else.

I can't imagine why someone had a loaded rifle in a gun shop. Makes no sense to me.

Just my opinion.

Rail Driver
April 29, 2012, 05:13 PM
This might sound harsh, but I believe that both those individuals should lose their jobs.

I can completely understand why someone who works in a gun shop would be carrying a loaded handgun. I can't imagine why he would handle it unless he was defending himself or someone else.

I can't imagine why someone had a loaded rifle in a gun shop. Makes no sense to me.

Just my opinion.
My first AR-15 managed to somehow lock itself shut a couple weeks after I got it. I was out at the range shooting, and the bolt locked closed on a live round, couldn't move it for anything - I later found out that a tiny chip of brass from the previously fired casing was the culprit - no idea how it happened, but the gunsmith replaced my extractor springs and I never had the problem again.

I had to take the rifle into the gun shop that day - with a round chambered. You never know what the reason may be. The magazine shouldn't have been in the rifle, however, even if it was locked up in some manner as my rifle was.

Lonestar49
April 29, 2012, 05:13 PM
...

Got to say, this, as to a mag disconnect, "safety feature", is on the same level as a decocker, not supposed to fire on a live chambered round but - they can fail, as noted in any owner/operator manual..

Go by the rules and o/o manuals "cautions" and apply the common sense they try and in-view/ingrain

Glad you lived thru both


Ls

toivo
April 29, 2012, 05:16 PM
My first AR-15 managed to somehow lock itself shut a couple weeks after I got it. I was out at the range shooting, and the bolt locked closed on a live round, couldn't move it for anything - I later found out that a tiny chip of brass from the previously fired casing was the culprit - no idea how it happened, but the gunsmith replaced my extractor springs and I never had the problem again.

I had to take the rifle into the gun shop that day - with a round chambered. You never know what the reason may be. The magazine shouldn't have been in the rifle, however, even if it was locked up in some manner as my rifle was.
OK, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of that.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 05:18 PM
My first AR-15 managed to somehow lock itself shut a couple weeks after I got it. I was out at the range shooting, and the bolt locked closed on a live round, couldn't move it for anything - I later found out that a tiny chip of brass from the previously fired casing was the culprit - no idea how it happened, but the gunsmith replaced my extractor springs and I never had the problem again.

I had to take the rifle into the gun shop that day - with a round chambered. You never know what the reason may be. The magazine shouldn't have been in the rifle, however, even if it was locked up in some manner as my rifle was.

Maybe I'm a lil confused as to what you are saying?
Why didn't you fire the round before you took it to the gun shop?
Or am I missing something?
Is it bad to do that?
Was it locked TOTALLY closed, or just kinda?

Loosedhorse
April 29, 2012, 05:21 PM
Please note that in both cases the firearms were owned and operated by the staff. Normally this is the only time you will see any loaded guns in any shop. I wouldn't ever go back to those shops, and I would tell all people I have influence over never to go to them, unless I heard that both employees were fired on the spot.

HOOfan_1
April 29, 2012, 05:29 PM
Remind me to NEVER go gun shopping in Florida!
:what:


Or with jungle...he is bad luck. :what:

Staff or not...they shouldn't be handling loaded firearms. Keep the loaded firearms holstered or otherwise secured unless there is a legitimate call do use them. They shouldn't be pointing other than at a 100% safe direction on "unloaded" ones either.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 05:39 PM
...Or with jungle...he is bad luck... :what:




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif

Rail Driver
April 29, 2012, 05:45 PM
Maybe I'm a lil confused as to what you are saying?
Why didn't you fire the round before you took it to the gun shop?
Or am I missing something?
Is it bad to do that?
Was it locked TOTALLY closed, or just kinda?

At that point in time I had no practical experience with AR-15 rifles. In the Army, where I learned the platform initially, they teach you how to clean it and how to shoot it as well as how to clear simple malfunctions - this malfunction wasn't simple. I didn't fire the round because the gun acted oddly - firing the round if there had been a stuck bullet could have destroyed the barrel or injured me. This malfunction also occurred several years ago. I've since acquired skill enough to handle the problem myself if it ever happens with my current rifle.

The details of the malfunction, however, aren't important. The point is that circumstances aren't black and white - there may be a valid reason for a given individual to bring a loaded rifle into a gun shop - you have no way of knowing the reason. It isn't WRONG to bring a loaded weapon into a gun shop as long as you're handling it safely with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction - it IS WRONG to handle a loaded firearm in an unsafe and improper manner no matter where you are.

B!ngo
April 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif
Funny, that's what I was thinking as well. Jungle should either play the lottery or crawl in to bed and assume the fetal position for a good long time.
But re the two gunshop 'perps', dismissal seems quite appropriate. I don't want to sound like old 'Mitt', but firing people who foolishly risk the lives of others, and as a function of their employment should know better, seems perfectly reasonable.
The second case was even more remarkable than the first. Waving around a loaded SCAR in a gunshop? Why? Why was it even loaded? And if there was trouble with the weapon, take it out back to the sand bucket or something.
BTW OP, glad you left all in one piece.
B

BSA1
April 29, 2012, 06:08 PM
No comments about what to do about the four shooters that went downrange without making sure the line was cold?

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 06:09 PM
At that point in time I had no practical experience with AR-15 rifles. In the Army, where I learned the platform initially, they teach you how to clean it and how to shoot it as well as how to clear simple malfunctions - this malfunction wasn't simple. I didn't fire the round because the gun acted oddly - firing the round if there had been a stuck bullet could have destroyed the barrel or injured me. This malfunction also occurred several years ago. I've since acquired skill enough to handle the problem myself if it ever happens with my current rifle.

The details of the malfunction, however, aren't important. The point is that circumstances aren't black and white - there may be a valid reason for a given individual to bring a loaded rifle into a gun shop - you have no way of knowing the reason. It isn't WRONG to bring a loaded weapon into a gun shop as long as you're handling it safely with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction - it IS WRONG to handle a loaded firearm in an unsafe and improper manner no matter where you are.

OK.
Now I get it.
And you're right.
The details of the malfunction is not the issue at hand here.
I agree.
I was just curious.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" to bring a loaded firearm into a gun shop either. That's not what I meant.
There are extenuating circumstances sometimes if said "gun shop" also has gun "smith" services as well.
I have no problems with that when it's an unavoidable situation.

jungle
April 29, 2012, 06:19 PM
If you want to see evidence of thousands of NDs just walk into any public indoor range-bullet holes/smears in the ceiling, floors, walls, counter, and smears on the armored(thankfully or hopefully) partitions.


My outdoor range just had to replace the roof over the covered firing points due to the large number of bullet holes. I pity the poor range officers.

Gun handling is clearly not a strong point with many.

armoredman
April 29, 2012, 06:19 PM
Wow, worked in two gunshops, never saw a single customer or employee have a negligent discharge in the sales area. One did occur at one place after I left, and they had to patch the bullet hole by the register. I'd have to say...I ain't going gun shopping with you! You're a bullet magnet! :D

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 06:20 PM
No comments about what to do about the four shooters that went downrange without making sure the line was cold?

?

Don't know what you are talking about....

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 06:26 PM
Wow, worked in two gunshops, never saw a single customer or employee have a negligent discharge in the sales area. One did occur at one place after I left, and they had to patch the bullet hole by the register. I'd have to say...I ain't going gun shopping with you! You're a bullet magnet! :D

Is there some sort of connection with Jungle "and" Rail Driver both being in Florida?
:D

Rail Driver
April 29, 2012, 06:36 PM
Is there some sort of connection with Jungle "and" Rail Driver both being in Florida?
:D
Uh yeah... we both live in Florida.

Are you implying something?

Sniper66
April 29, 2012, 06:59 PM
Really BAD LUCK!!! I am 65 years old and have been in dozens of guns shops, many gun shows, and hunted for about 60 years. I have spent many hours at the range with hundreds of shooters and have yet to see an accidental gun discharge. Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket.

Twmaster
April 29, 2012, 07:05 PM
What I find disturbing is the cavalier way in which many gunshop employees and owners handle firearms with customers around.

I have witnessed sales people sweeping the entire room, pointing at things/people etc.

I had to ask a salesman once to stop sweeping me with a 1911 I was looking at.

His reply was some crap like "It's not loaded"...

Yea. Right. Nobody ever got shot with an empty gun right?

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 07:12 PM
What I find disturbing is the cavalier way in which many gunshop employees and owners handle firearms with customers around.

I have witnessed sales people sweeping the entire room, pointing at things/people etc.

I had to ask a salesman once to stop sweeping me with a 1911 I was looking at.

His reply was some crap like "It's not loaded"...

Yea. Right. Nobody ever got shot with an empty gun right?

It "does" make you wonder sometimes huh?

I've noticed worse gun handling in stores that were pawn-shop like...more so than dedicated gun stores.
I'm not sure why that is, but that seems to be the case around "here" anyways.
But....it could be totally different in other places.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 07:15 PM
Uh yeah... we both live in Florida.

Are you implying something?

Nope.
Just a coincidental observation I guess.
:D

JRH6856
April 29, 2012, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSA1 View Post
No comments about what to do about the four shooters that went downrange without making sure the line was cold?
?

Don't know what you are talking about....

I'm pretty sure he posted on the wrong thread. The comment makes perfect sense on another thread running right now about range safety.

SabbathWolf
April 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
I'm pretty sure he posted on the wrong thread. The comment makes perfect sense on another thread running right now about range safety.

Oh!

Well that makes sense then.
He had me lost for a second...lol
:D

JRH6856
April 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
Yea. Right. Nobody ever got shot with an empty gun right?

I'm fairly certain that nobody ever did, actually. But don't tell me its unloaded, show me its unloaded. And even then, I expect you to act like it is loaded.

coalman
April 30, 2012, 12:12 AM
Got to say, this, as to a mag disconnect, "safety feature", is on the same level as a decocker, not supposed to fire on a live chambered round but - they can fail, as noted in any owner/operator manual...

IMO, a "safety", regardless of type, should not be used to prevent a loaded gun from firing when you intentionally pull the trigger. Any time you pull the trigger expect the gun to fire. Simple stuff. But, the "simple" stuff can be the easiest forgotten the more experienced one becomes.

csa77
April 30, 2012, 12:50 AM
From my own personal experiance id have to guess this was a "shoot strait" store.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 30, 2012, 01:00 AM
Uh yeah... we both live in Florida.

Are you implying something?

Jungle lives in Florida
Rail Driver lives in Florida
Both have bad luck
Both have bad luck in Florida
The problem is obviously Florida :eek: :D

SabbathWolf
April 30, 2012, 01:32 AM
Jungle lives in Florida
Rail Driver lives in Florida
Both have bad luck
Both have bad luck in Florida
The problem is obviously Florida :eek: :D

lol....:D

That's all I meant too...in just a joking manner.

Rail Driver
April 30, 2012, 01:38 AM
Jungle lives in Florida
Rail Driver lives in Florida
Both have bad luck
Both have bad luck in Florida
The problem is obviously Florida :eek: :D
lol! To be fair, my rifle malf'd in South Carolina, though I have been going through a small string of bad luck recently.

Ironically, my recent bad luck IS caused by the State of Florida. I think it's time to move :P

12131
April 30, 2012, 03:18 AM
This might sound harsh, but I believe that both those individuals should lose their jobs.
Not harsh in the least, imo.

Centurian22
April 30, 2012, 03:42 AM
Wow, definitely a lesson in situational awareness and holding any and all people around you to YOUR OWN standard of 'safe weapon handling' not trusting that because they work there, they must know better. Also +1 to the idea that both / any person involved in a ND should be imediately terminated of employment from said location.

Congrats on not being a statistic!

Sav .250
April 30, 2012, 07:39 AM
Stupidity rears it`s ugly head once again.

x_wrench
April 30, 2012, 07:57 AM
wow, that is CRAZY! i do not spend a lot of time in gun shops either, at least not nearly as much as i would like. but in my years, i have never heard of such a thing. i would think that would be grounds for IMMEDIATE TERMINATION! right there, right then. i would not want anyone on my staff that could kill some one customer or employee, by irresponsible firearm handling. the only firearms that should be loaded in a gun shop, are the ones employee's have on their persons in holsters for defense situations, and those IN HOLSTERS by patrons, as long as it is legal (some states it is not). the ONLY time a loaded weapon should be out of its holster is in the event that a situation arises, where it may be necessary to shoot someone. OR, if the shop has a range, then it would be appropriate for the guns to be loaded IN the range. but certainly not in the main area of the store. the two discharges you are describing certainly sound negligent. and the employee who did them, should consider him or herself discharged as well. a gun shop is no place for a careless sales person!

LongTimeGone
April 30, 2012, 12:25 PM
From my own personal experiance id have to guess this was a "shoot strait" store

Possibly, but I have yet to see one at the store near me.
I am a range member and visit a couple of time a week.
They have had problems with rental guns and suicides.

Ryanxia
April 30, 2012, 02:07 PM
Always a good reminder, the problem often lies with people who've handled guns a million times and start to ignore the 4 rules.

The_Armed_Therapist
April 30, 2012, 02:57 PM
I'll just never go to a gun shop with you... You seem REALLY unlucky! HAHAHA!!! I'm only kidding. These are the first two incidences I've ever heard about.

justice06rr
April 30, 2012, 08:36 PM
Holy crap!

Remind me to NEVER go gun shopping in Miami!


Fixed!

the rest of FL isn't bad, but Miami can be pretty rough if you don't know the area.

SabbathWolf
April 30, 2012, 09:00 PM
Fixed!

the rest of FL isn't bad, but Miami can be pretty rough if you don't know the area.

lol....
Where did the Golden Girls live on TV?

Gtimothy
April 30, 2012, 09:18 PM
I guess I'm fortunate in the part of Florida I live in...Both of the shops I frequent have very aware and muzzle conscious staff. Any time I bring one of my weapons in, I clear and verify and they do the same when I hand it to them - even if they watched me do it!
I guess I'll just stay away from Miami!

dev_null
May 1, 2012, 04:05 PM
This might sound harsh, but I believe that both those individuals should lose their jobs.
I don't think that's harsh at all, I think it should be a given.

jrdolall
May 1, 2012, 04:19 PM
I was in a gun shop in AL a few months back when a customer brought in a .22 semi for the gunsmith to look at. I had my back turned and the smith had the gun and was looking it over when he suddenly said, "Do you know this gun is loaded?" That was a feeling I will not likely forget.

A couple of years ago one of my hunting buddies had an accidental discharge. He killed a deer with a Marlin 336 and, after loading another round, let the hammer slip when he went to safe the gun. He has shot umpteen deer with this gun and was well aware of the process but made a mistake. Fortunately all it did was scare him pretty badly.

The LGS' I use are very safety aware and always make a habit of showing that a gun is clear when they take it off the shelf. I return the favor by verifying what he just showed me so we are both satisfied.

I hate seeing people sweep the store even if the gun is loaded. It just creeps me out.

drcook
May 1, 2012, 05:15 PM
10 yrs (+/-) ago I was a part time insurance agent, making some money on the side of my main job as a computer systems consultant. One of my clients was a gunshop. One of the employees took a pistol into the range to test it, left one in the chamber, brought in back out, set it down on the counter and went to the cash register to help a customer.

One of the folks in the gunshop, picked the pistol up, stuck his finger over the end of the barrel and........drum roll for stupidity here.........pulled the trigger and blew the end of his finger off. The judge couldn't/wouldn't rule about comparative negligence, the gunshop was ruled entirely against. The insurance company paid the claim and dropped them. We never could get them covered again. I have no idea who wrote them a policy going forward.

It was a sweet deal for me. Every time he paid his premium, I got paid, and went back to his shop and bought a gun from him. So he won also, until his idiot employee ruined it.

After that, he and his employees got more and more careless, culminating with the ATF not being able to track/account for numerous firearms in the bound book. Needless to say, he is out of the firearm business.

kb58
May 1, 2012, 09:20 PM
I think that the real problem is that we're too full of ourselves to admit that we're all dumb...

Fishslayer
May 1, 2012, 11:55 PM
Holy crap!

Remind me to NEVER go gun shopping in Florida!
:what:


I'm biting a hole in my tongue over here!:evil:

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