H110 Paranoia

I'm fairly new to reloading so please bear with me. I have done alot of reading on different forums and I have come across a couple discussions of folks having dangerous problems using H110 powder in the 357 cartridge. Most of these sounded like low pressure problems that would either fail to clear the bullet from the barrel or actually produce a "powder wad" of unburnt powder in the barrel. So's here's my questions:

I am using speer 158grhp (# 4211) and am following their manual using 15gr of H110. Now this is slightly below their max load of 15.5gr. I don't load to max cause I'm new and nervous. I seat the bullet so that top line of the cannelure is even with the case mouth and give it good roll crimp.

I know not to download H110 more than 3% (warning from their site says this can cause these problems) and if I wanted a light load I would simply shoot 38 instead.

My questions are these:

1. I load on a lee classic turret press and use the lee 4 die set for 38/357. The instructions that come with it don't really say what a "good" crimp is. I will upload pictures when I get home to show what I am using as a 'Good" crimp. Could someone uload what a good roll crimp looks like.

2. Is there any real truth to these types of problems using H110? Is there a better powder to use that would minimize these problems?

3. Is there problems with using too much crimp. Will this increase pressures.

I also reload 9mm and .38 and put taper crimps on these (much easier to understand). The "good" or "correct" roll crimp is hard for me to grasp especially if you look at factory ammo. Some brands have very little crimp and some have alot of crimp. I just want to make sure I'm safe using H110.



Thanks for the info
Mac

Alliant 2400 is way more forgiving if you want to download it.

It just won't burn clean, not blow you up.

Too much roll crimp will buckle the brass below the crimp and they may not chamber.

Enough is if you run your fingernail over it you can't feel the edge of the case mouth, and the bullets don't pull out under recoil.

rc

H110 is a full power powder and does not like being softloaded.

I agree with rc (which is a smart thing to do generally); 2400 is far more flexible and doesn't require magnum primers. It's the "magnum" powder many experienced reloaders recommend to try first.

Regarding your questions. I don't have a roll crimp photo, but as rcmodel stated, a good roll crimp will roll case mouth into the cannelure so that you cannot feel the case lip with your nail if you run your nail over the cirmp.

H110 (aka Win 296) was the original Winchester factory 357 powder. And IMO, remains a great 357 powder choice, follow the posted loads from a reliable source and should be no problem at all. I have loaded 158 gr Hornady XTP's with 16.0 gr for years, and it is one of my favorite medium-powerful loads. For some spicier fun, try 21.0 gr under a 125 gr bullet, kicks like a mule and the muzzle flash and noise will get you some attention on the firing line, particularily if you shoot at an indoor range. I also load with 2400, also a great magnum powder (less $ per round), but if I am out to shoot something that sounds, feels and performs like a full power 357, IMO no better powder than H110. Use with magnum primers, stout roll crimps, good brass and a sturdy gun.

The brass will buckle prior to producing a crimp that causes dangerous pressure increases (at least as visible by inspecting the brass). In my Smith 686 never a problem. The only issue I have ever had using this powder is a few cracked case mouths using weaker brass (S&B). Heavy roll crimps likely do work the brass at the casemouth some but because I like to load full power 357 I use quality brass and retire them to lighter target loadings (with a different powder) after about 5-6 firings.

Alliant 2400 is way more forgiving if you want to download it.

It just won't burn clean, not blow you up.

Too much roll crimp will buckle the brass below the crimp and they may not chamber.

Enough is if you run your fingernail over it you can't feel the edge of the case mouth, and the bullets don't pull out under recoil.

rc

I will try 2400 also - I must not be over crimping since I don't feel a drag on the case when I withdraw it from the lee FCD. Evidentally I am not deforming the case.

To make sure I'm getting enough crimp I guess I can measure coal on a round then fire 5 rounds and check the coal on the 6th one to see if the bullet jumped. I was more concerned about this than anything else. I want to make sure I have enough crimp to develop enough pressure to prevent any possible problems.

Mac

With revolvers, bullet jump lengthens the OAL rather than shortening it. The danger is in potentially jamming the cylinder when a round gets too long.

I'm a big fan of H110/W296 for full power .357 Magnum loads and if that's what you're looking for, use it. For medium loads use a slightly faster powder or 2400 like mentioned above. I use H110/W296 for my full power .357 Magnum ammo and HS-6 for middle to middle-stiff magnum loads. That works well for me...

As for crimp, just look at it and if you can see the crimp easily it's a stiff crimp.

I would say that when you set up your LEE FCD a light crimp is usually 1/4 turn. A medium is 1/4 up to 1/2 a turn. The heavy crimp is about 1/2 a turn to 5/8 or so turn. The turn is after run the ram up with a round in it and turn the FCD "IN" until it touches the case mouth. I usually set mine about 5/8 turn up to 3/4 turn for a heavy crimp.

I wouldn't worry about the charges in H110. If you are using load data supplied by the manual, you will be fine. I have loaded between 19.4 grains up to 22.0 grains of H110 in 357 mag with 125 grain XTP's and others. It gets your attention quick. I also recommend Winchester 231 for slower speed loads. It burns as clean as H110/W296 and meters very well.

I don't know if you know this, but BLUEDOT is not recommended for .357 magnum with 125 grain bullets. It is not recommended for any loads in 41 magnum. Some of the older load manuals list BLUEDOT as an acceptable powder for these loads but alliantpowder.com states that Alliant has issued a safety warning due to fluctuating pressures and pressure spikes with those loads.

Good Luck!

I've loaded thousand and thousands of rounds with H-110 in my 357's over the years and i've never had even one problem, but i only use it for upper end loads...

DM

As mentioned above, You can use Alliant 2400. I have used it and liked it. Nice boom out of the .357. With H-110, Just follow the guidelines with it. Use a magnum primer and do not go below 3% start charge. As for the crimp, Slowly add it until you can see what your looking for. I know WalkAlong ( I think ) has the picture you need to understand a full crimp better.

What 4895 told you is also good advice, Try it that way and you will see the case crimp into the cannelure.

I've been using H110 like forever and have never had a problem with it. As long as you don't reduce the charge too much, your good to go.
GS

I am using 16.3g of H110 with a 158g JHP and they are fantastic! Also using the CCI 550 Mag primers and a sturdy crimp! Stupid accurate out of my Desert Eagle and my GP100. They do have some serious power though for a 357.

If I want a softer mag I will use 2400, and for target loads I use 231 in 38 Special casings.

I load H110 in everything from 30 carbine to 500 S&W. The only time I have ever had any problems was in a 454 Casull. Every once in a while a round would come out around 500 fps slower than normal. Bumping up the powder charge fixed the problem.

As far as the 357 goes, 15 grains is a little on the wimpy side. I now use 17 grains as my standard load. You should be fine anywhere in that range though.

Thanks all for the responses! I used 15grs because it was slightly less than my latest speer manual advised (it stated 15.5 max). I keep seeing everyone here and in other threads saying they use up to 17grs with a 158gr jacketed bullet.

I have some hornady 158grhp to try next. If I remember correctly their manual says 16grs max but my 49th Lyman says 16.7 with the exact same bullet.

I guess I will load some starting at 15.5 and go up slowly and see if I have any over pressure problems. I know to look for flatened primers but it seems to me even with factory loads the primers seem to flatten out pretty good.

Thanks 4895, I have been using right at 3/4 turn on my Lee FCD for the crimp. It seemed about right to me comparing it to some factory crimped rounds.

Mac

Alliant 2400 is way more forgiving if you want to download it.

It just won't burn clean, not blow you up.

Too much roll crimp will buckle the brass below the crimp and they may not chamber.

Enough is if you run your fingernail over it you can't feel the edge of the case mouth, and the bullets don't pull out under recoil.

rc

I also agree that agreeing with rcmodel is the wise way to go.

H110 needs three things:
- Good stout charge per manuals, never under the minimum
- Good crimp
- If according to your manual a magnum primer

H110 is a hard to ignite powder. Let me tell you a short story:

I use H110 with 357 mag, 44 mag and 500 mag. I had my only issue with 500 mag. After a few years of experience using H110 in other magnums cartridges, my wife bought a 500 S&W and asked me to handload her ammunition. Something like 38ish grains behind 350 grains bullets (NON VERIFIED DATA. DO NOT USE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSE ONLY) I used Starline brass that was to be used with LPM. I got my first squid with the first shot. Not a big one. the bullet just excited the case and I was able to push it out with a brass rod and a couple hammer hits. I tried again and same thing happened. What I found out was a case full of yellow and a little bit of black powder.

I went home, checked EVERYTHING, double checked EVERYTHING, triple checked EVERYTHING.

After a bunch of questions here and a bunch of answers, I changed the primer pocket on all my brass from LP to LR and used LRM. Since that time, I never got bad ignition of that powder.

You can use other "magnum" powders that will be easier on you as a starting handloader. In a few years, graduate to less forgiving powders. Trust me, at the range I saw 4 kaboom in about 3 years and all were caused by inexperienced or idiot handloader.

A good crimp is only part of the bullet retention story. The friction between the bullet and the case contributes, too.

Bullet retention not only prevents bullets "jumping crimp" or creeping out of the case under the recoil forces of its brother rounds, but provides for development of the pressure required for smokeless powder to burn at the proper rate.

Powders like H110 do not burn consistently without that proper pressure. When they burn inconsistently, you can get pressure spikes that have been know to (or at least accused of) spontaneously disassembling firearms and body parts. Some people deny this. Most accept it.

Powders like 2400 do not suffer this danger nearly as much. But they do exhibit soot, unburnt powder and erratic velocities, which is not nearly as troubling, but bad enough if you want more moderate loads.

Powders like Unique and Trail Boss are easy to ignite and are much more well-behaved at moderate power levels. Trail Boss burns at a low pressure. Unique and Bullseye just burns very fast, thereby producing the pressure it nees pretty reliably.

Where H110 makes it worth is at the high pressures. It burns long, maintaining the pressure as the bullet transits the barrel and maintaining pressure for longer times you get the highes velocities without elevated pressures. A fast powder that burns out before the bullet exits the barrel would need higher pressure to achieve the same velocity. Too high a pressure.

I recommended Trail Boss for my friend when he started reloading. It is easy to learn with because you can easily see the powder in the cartridge (it is a voluminous powder and nearly fills the case in any recommended load). Bullseye, on the other hand, is much more energy dense and does not fill the case even if you seriously overcharge. It is scary.

Small mistakes with unforgiving powders can produce bad results, so a little H110 paranoia is healthy. But it is a GREAT powder once you get used to handling it.

Welcome to reloading and thanks for asking our advice

Lost Sheep

Thanks Lost Sheep for that reply!

I realize (from all the reading on this and other forums) that neck tension is very important in developing proper pressures. I set my neck sizer to bell my cases only enough to seat a bullet just enough so it won't fall out by itself when turned upside down. It's not enough that I can push the bullet further in the case so I think I am getting good tension when the bullet is seated by the press. I also set my crimp on my press so I am getting a strong roll in the cannelure (I've compared to other reloader's pictures that they have posted).

I loaded some speer 158gr hp @ 15.0 grs (speer listed as 15.5 gr max). I am going to also test some Hornady 158hp xtp next. Hornady's manual lists 12.7 to 15.6gr. If you look that same exact bullet (right down to the part number) in Lyman's #49 it lists this as 16.3 to 17.0 grs.

What I don't understand is if H110 gets dangerous when you down load it then why is their a 3.6 gr difference in starting loads between the two manuals using the exact same bullet, seating depth, and primer? Is Hornady just being overly cautious for legal reasons? From what I have heard it seems that it is more dangerous to go that low to start with in the first place.

I am going to work a load up from 15.5 to 17.0 and see how it goes. Do you think I should disassemble the 50 rounds that I made using the speer information at 15.0 gr or are they probably alright?

Mac

Thanks Lost Sheep for that reply!
You're welcome. Happy to help where I can.

What I don't understand is if H110 gets dangerous when you down load it then why is their a 3.6 gr difference in starting loads between the two manuals using the exact same bullet, seating depth, and primer?
Different labs, different test guns, different brass and primers. Different results. Another reason a powder with a such a narrow safety window is scary. Also, a reason to chronograph your loads. If your velocities are always very close to one another, you are good. If the velocities vary a lot, your gun with that powder, etc. is telling you that a load adjustment is needed.

Lost Sheep

Thanks all for the responses! I used 15grs because it was slightly less than my latest speer manual advised (it stated 15.5 max). I keep seeing everyone here and in other threads saying they use up to 17grs with a 158gr jacketed bullet.

I have some hornady 158grhp to try next. If I remember correctly their manual says 16grs max but my 49th Lyman says 16.7 with the exact same bullet.

I guess I will load some starting at 15.5 and go up slowly and see if I have any over pressure problems. I know to look for flatened primers but it seems to me even with factory loads the primers seem to flatten out pretty good.

Thanks 4895, I have been using right at 3/4 turn on my Lee FCD for the crimp. It seemed about right to me comparing it to some factory crimped rounds.

Mac
I have settles on a charge of 16.4gr W296/H110 under a 158gr XTP bullet with a CCI-550 primer. That seems to wok well for me.

You need to stop downloading this powder. That is what will cause you problems when loading with it... With other powders you can start very low and work your way up. With this powder you must start at the minimum charge listed in the manual and NO LOWER.

Start here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orJdUR_X67M

Lost Sheep

edit: I finally got around to watching it myself. He talks about primer condition (flattened and cratered), then gives a very light treatment to case head or web expansion (for this you really need calipers or micrometer), difficult bolt lift (which shows up as difficult extraction in a revolver), case-head separation and enlarged primer pockets. These are only a few of the diagnostic tools handloaders look for.

The 'old' Hodgdon published data listed 14.5gr H110 as Max load for 158gr JSP (right on the front of the can, and I will gladly supply a pic if anyone wants it)...Millions of rounds went downrange with that and/or 3% 'lighter' loads (as per their dire warnings)...

Current Minimum on the Hodgdon website for that bullet is 15gr H110, with a Maximum of 16.7gr...

The current Hornady 8th Edition lists 12.7gr Min with a Max of 15.6gr, for a spread of 4 full grains from Hornady Minimum to Hodgdon Maximum...

I hear people all the time on the net saying "Stick to published' recipes"...Ok, then...Whose recipes do we stick to, or does our education, experience, and rational thought come into play at some point?

I do not believe that Hornady, nor Hodgdon, are losing any sleep over their recommended loads being too low or too high...

With lead I just shot 15.5 grains with W296 (same powder sold under Winchester name) and every thing was just fine.


Smith & Wesson M27-2 6.5” barrel



158 LSWC Linotype 15.5 W296 Zero Cases CCI500

21 June 2008 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel = 1282
Std Dev = 35
ES = 128.1
High = 1325
Low = 1197
N = 12

No leading, no extraction issues, heavier recoil than AA#9 load


158 LSWC Linotype 15.5 W296 3D Cases CCI500

14 Oct 2008 T = 80 °F

Ave Vel = 1260
Std Dev = 34
ES = 160.5
High = 1315
Low = 1154
N = 18

Here is my recommendation. You are a new reloader, do not push the envelope in any way until you have a bit more experience under your belt. Do not go over published data, Do not load things that make you feel paranoid, instinct is there for a reason. Male sure you have a good scale with check weights, good lighting, and you are carefully checking what you are doing and QC each round. When you get used to doing these things then attempt loads that are closer to the redline.

I must be doing something wrong. I loaded some 158 Gr Nosler JHP's with 17.0 grains of H110, and only got 1287 FPS from a 6" GP 100....Seems i should be getting way more than that... I get 1180 with 8.0 grains of Unique ?? I dont have the numbers here with me, but I believe 14.0 # 9 gave me better than the H110. On the other hand, 21.8 Gr H110 gave me 1700+ FPS with a 125 Gr XTP

I must be doing something wrong. I loaded some 158 Gr Nosler JHP's with 17.0 grains of H110, and only got 1287 FPS from a 6" GP 100....Seems i should be getting way more than that... I get 1180 with 8.0 grains of Unique ?? I dont have the numbers here with me, but I believe 14.0 # 9 gave me better than the H110. On the other hand, 21.8 Gr H110 gave me 1700+ FPS with a 125 Gr XTP

I am not suggesting you've done anything wrong. Are you using magnum primers? I have loaded .357 mag over H110/W296 with standard primers and magnum primers. I had better accuracy with standard primers, however I think I had some velocity issues and the extra muzzle flip / flinch was the cause of my accuracy loss. I seem to get the best velocity with a magnum primer.

I think the bigget problem I have is not pushing the envelope with a too hot load - just the opposite. All over the boards everyone says "Don't download this powder". Hodgdon's own website says not to go under minimum load greater than 3%. Then you find the following load info:

Hodgdon's Web Site - 158gr Hornady XTP - Coal 1.580 - 15.0 min - 16.7 max

Hornady's 8th ed Manual - 158gr XTP - Coal 1.590 - 12.7 min - 15.6 max

Lyman's 49th ed Manual - 158gr XTP - Coal 1.590 - 16.3 min - 17.0 max

3% under Hodgdon's own load info is 14.55gr min but the bullet manufacture drops all the way down to 12.7gr min? Thats over 15% under minimum. This is why I was saying I was paranoid about this powder. How can it be so dangerous but the load info vary so much? This is the exact same bullet in all 3 loads.

One of my questions was that I had loaded 50 rounds at 15.0 gr with a tight roll crimp and was wondering if this was going to present a problem. I think when I am finished with this powder I will try out 2400 instead.

Mac

15 grains will be fine. In fact, I've been told by several people that they have the best accuracy with the 158 XTP at 14.5 grains of H110. Just make sure you use a magnum primer and you'll be fine.

The trouble really starts when people download and don't use a magnum primer, and/or the ambient temps when they are shooting are really cold. You can get away with a lot more when it's 80+ degrees outside, as opposed to when it's in the single digits.

H110 is probably the best magnum powder out there, especially in the larger calibers. I've burned LOTS of it, and many other people have too, without any problems. I've not used magnum primers, and I've loaded lighter than 3% below the minimum (according to some manuals) without issues. Accuracy and consistency suffered, though. My experience with H110 is that best performance is at near to max, or max loading. Because of this, generally, I don't even bother with the starting loads when using H110.

The biggest "danger" is that the powder doesn't ignite completely and you stick a bullet in the barrel. I've never had this happen, but have spoken with others who have, however they were typically firing in much much colder conditions.

I think maybe you are worrying about it too much. Just stick to published data (someone's) and you'll be fine.

I think the bigget problem I have is not pushing the envelope with a too hot load - just the opposite. All over the boards everyone says "Don't download this powder". Hodgdon's own website says not to go under minimum load greater than 3%. Then you find the following load info:

Hodgdon's Web Site - 158gr Hornady XTP - Coal 1.580 - 15.0 min - 16.7 max

Hornady's 8th ed Manual - 158gr XTP - Coal 1.590 - 12.7 min - 15.6 max

Lyman's 49th ed Manual - 158gr XTP - Coal 1.590 - 16.3 min - 17.0 max

3% under Hodgdon's own load info is 14.55gr min but the bullet manufacture drops all the way down to 12.7gr min? Thats over 15% under minimum. This is why I was saying I was paranoid about this powder.

And THAT is exactly why I made my post on page 1...

With the obviously 'safe' loads from Hornady's min of 12.7gr to Hodgdon's own 16.7gr max for a 158gr XTP, their 'Dire Warning' of do not download by more than 3% has got to be a CYA measure for them...When I say 'Obviously Safe', I mean that the lawyers for neither company are losing any sleep over either one's published data...

Hornady stands by their load data, as does Hodgdon...And so do their lawyers...

Stop being 'paranoid', and have at it...Find the load within the published data that works best for you in your gun(s)...

If it is any consolation, I fired some 158gr hard cast with 14.5gr of H110 (old Hodgdon published maximum) this past weekend...I did not chrony them, but they recoiled in what I would term a 'mid-range magnum' load for that gun, and they were very accurate with no leading...

http://i49.tinypic.com/34g91tv.jpg

Over the past few years I've probably pushed better than 5000 158gr .357 rounds downrange with 15 gr. of H110/W296. Non has stuck in a barrel(even in the carbines) and none have blown any guns up. Accurate and easy enough on me and the guns. When hunting I'll bump it up half to three quarters of a grain, but probably don't have to. Follow the recipes, use magnum primers and a firm crimp. Out of all the guns I know of that have been damaged by handloaders, none of them have been by H110/W296. Most are by small charges of faster powders either by double chrarging or trying to make mouse fart loads and getting a stuck bullet. H110/W296 is impossible to double charge and is hard to miss a round without powder if you look in your cases. It meters extremely well and consistently outta most measures. In other words it's easy to use. It also works very well in magnum loads, in most of my magnum loads it not only gives the best velocities, but it also gives me what I really reload for....best accuracy. So it has narrow parameters, but in those parameters it works very well and is extremely safe.