[megatronrules]

I like revolvers for defense as many of you do Im sure. I was talking with a good friend of mine last night. We got to talking about guns as always:p So I said I like revolvers for defense. Now autoloaders are great,I have a Glock. There is just something about the revolver though. It has advantages over an auto. It cant be throw out of battery like an autoloader, can be left loaded forever since there is nothing under strain. If it doesnt work, pull the trigger again. That is what we would do from instinct under pressure. I may not remember RACK_TAP_BANG when Im fighting for my life, lord forbid it ever comes:( I might not be in a posistion to implemant it even if i did remember how. Then we get to capacity. My J-Frame is 5 shots.some like Colt give you 6 rounds. I know there are 7 and 8 round guns as well. This is where the auto guys get pissed. My reply is always the same to them. "Are you gonna miss a lot" :D Think about this. If you dont hit him with the first 2 you need a lot more range time. Really capacity is overated. Then they say "What if there is more than one BG,say 3"? I say 2 each then reload :D A 158 LSWC+P is going to ruin a mans day. If there are more then 3 you probably pissed off the wrong people!:D
All in all joking aside I think most people would be better off with a good revolver, than a new auto they have no idea how to clear or manage in an emergency. Thats just me though. I just think its funny they come up with all these scenerios about multiple BG's so they will need 15 or more rounds. Police Officers used revolvers for years, and they never needed more than 6 rounds.I think as a regular guy 5 or 6 rounds works for me.
Well sorry for the long post. Thought I would get you're opinions here. Thanks.

[Old Fuff]

Some like autoloaders because that's what they see police officers carrying or on their favorite "action" TV programs. But most want the supposed advantage of "firepower" - defined to mean a lot of cartridges before it's necessary to reload. "Spray and pray" doesn't work too well with a revolver. For the record, I too own a lot of pistols but have never felt undergunned with a revolver. Say what you will, limp wristing won't stop a six-shooter like it will an autoloader.

[Quartus]

Hmmm. I don't suppose it is just possible there might be some good reasons why the auto has replaced the revolver just about anywhere you can name where people have to depend on them for real gunfights.

Capacity is only over-rated if you can shoot like Hollywood actors in scripted "action" scenes, and the bad guys fly across the room when hit with one of your flying leap shots. You ARE going to miss, and all the range time in world won't change that, especially if that range time is like most folks have - shooting at static targest at known ranges.

And even if you hit more than you miss, those bad guys will insist on staying right where they are a lot of the time. Just can't get them to fly across the room, somehow. In real life, it's pretty rare to get them to drop with just a couple of hits. It takes lots of lead.

Take a defensive handgun course from a qualified instructor. (Sorry, in most cases that doesn't include your local CCW or NRA instructor.) Take a course that includes realistic scenarios including multiple targets and surprises. Unless your mind is completely closed, you'll dump the revolver. (Except possibly as a backup.)

[Hkmp5sd]

I remember LEO's in the 60s and 70s telling me that would not be caught dead carrying a semiautomatic handgun on patrol. Then came the S&W 59, Beretta 92 and the Bren 10 along with Maimi Vice, Die Hard, Terminator, Scarface. For many, it's the coolness factor.

Both revolvers and pistols have their pros and cons. It is the user that weighs these facts and chooses the one most appropriate for his task.

[buzz_knox]

Most of those instructors still teach, and occasionally carry and recommend, revolvers. These include Mike Boyle, Jim Cirillo, Jim Higginbotham, and Massad Ayoob. The revolver is only dead in the minds of those who are focussed solely on autos.

[dude]

revolvers = simplicity

autos are fine for lots of senarios...... but you have to train and maintain your skills

unlike LEOs, most of us will face a single (or two) bad-guy on our own turf when armed. In situations like this a revolver is more than enough firepower.

[Mike Irwin]

Beats me, but it doesn't change the fact that I've carried a revolver for years, and will continue to carry a revolver.

[braindead0]

<doning flame proof underpants>
I think the police (and military) switched because they can potentially carry more ammo, meaning poor shooters get more chances to hit the target. Due to 'equal opportunity', both police and military in many cases end up with people who can't and will never apply themselves enough to learn to shoot well.

It's very common here in Ohio to hear about 'shootouts' where 18+ rounds are fired by police (with maybe one hit).

just imo....

[HaveGun]

I have always been a wheelgun guy. I love my 38 spcl two inch Colts and Smiths. I can conceal them better than my semi autos. HOWEVER, I have changed to carrying Berettas and Glocks with Hi Cap Mags. I can shoot the snubbies as well as the semi autos up to 35 yards. I am concerned with reloading under stress and multiple suspects. I don't spray and pray because of the many years of revolver shooting. I was never overly concerned with multiple suspects when I was a policeman. I carried two guns and was young and bullet proof I guess. Now I carry two guns on some jobs, both with 10 rounds or more. I still love my snubbies and carry them sometimes.

[LWCmdr45]

It's not that I don't like revolvers, I just prefer semi-autos. Considering that a SD piece will be carried, I find that semi-autos pistols and their spare magazines are flatter and more concealable than comparably powered revolvers and their speedloaders, especially in the t-shirt weather that we Texans "enjoy" for 6-7 months a year.

Steve

[PATH]

SShhhh! I really have a dirty little secret. I shoot better with my revolvers than I do with my semi-autos. I like them and still primarily carry a J-frame Mod 36 every day.

[tbeb]

My home defense handguns are full-size semi-auto pistols. My CCW is a snubnose revolver (best suited for pocket carry, for me) because I feel a small revolver is overall more reliable than a small semi-auto. I've experienced malfunctions with both auto and revolver. If I had to choose between the two... it would be... I don't know. It's a toss-up.

[10-Ring]

Among the guys I shoot w/ less than 1/2 know how to properly shoot a DA revolver. They prefer the SA triggers on their semis. I guess that goes way beyond cool and enters into the "LAZY" since they're unwilling to train to use their guns properly.

[bountyhunter]

Megatron: you are 100% right.

"Hmmm. I don't suppose it is just possible there might be some good reasons why the auto has replaced the revolver just about anywhere you can name where people have to depend on them for real gunfights."

Revolvers fell out of favor when they were phased out of law enforcement mainly for two reasons:

1) Revolvers have no safeties and cities don't like getting sued.

2) Cops were getting the butts shot off in gunfights with people packing high-capacity handguns.

Neither apply to the typical personal defense scenario where a wheelgun is still the best friend to have. The main reason people buy autos is because they see them on TV and they are sexy.

[DeltaElite]

For me it is a capacity issue and my dept won't allow a revolver as our primary weapon. :scrutiny:

Personally I would carry a Smith 58 41mag in a heartbeat if allowed.
If not the Smith 58, I would take a Smith 27 with 8 round of 357. :D

I carry my new Smith 640 in a pocket, replacing my Smith 342.

I love revolvers. :D

[Dr.Rob]

I wasn't much of a revolver guy until I got my magnum carry.

I own a number of revolvers, but they were all belt guns. The little Colt makes serious sense as a defensive tool, and its a good shooter. And everyone knows the .45 and the 9mm both pale in comparison to the ballistics of the .357.

Besides it's hard to find a concealment holster for a Colt New Service Army.

[Quartus]

Delta, I remember when the Santa Ana PD (California) banned the eeevile MAAAAAGUMs from the force. Any revolver was okay, as long as it didn't carry that evil label, "Magnum". Too much PR headache.


So a lot of Smith 25's in .45 LC got sold. :D


Yeah, I'd carry a .41 in a heartbeat if it came in a good semi-auto.


2) Cops were getting the butts shot off in gunfights with people packing high-capacity handguns.


Ummm. Almost sounds like one of those "very good reasons"....

Nah, couldn't be.




Due to 'equal opportunity', both police and military in many cases end up with people who can't and will never apply themselves enough to learn to shoot well.


I wish I were sure it was that simple. It would be interesting to chart the 'decline' in shooting ability vs. the dumbing down of standards. I'm wondering if police shooting has ever been very good. It sure isn't now.

[bountyhunter]

"2) Cops were getting the butts shot off in gunfights with people packing high-capacity handguns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm. Almost sounds like one of those "very good reasons"...."

Nope, that's a reason why people who are well trained might benefit from a higher capacity auto. If you want to see the reason why the vast majority of us (private citizens) should be carrying wheelguns, watch some of those police video programs where the store owner gets shot while he is pointing his auto at the robber and pulling away on the trigger (with the safety on).

[JeepDriver]

I love my one and only revolver. Matter of fact it's my home defence gun. Everything else I have is semi auto, but the revolver is what I keep in my night stand.

[PlayTheAces]

Guess it just boils down to what a person is most comfy with. For the bedroom, I've always preferred a wheel gun. I've finally settled (at least for now) on a 60. Just seems to feel right when I pick it up. How's that for a really scientific reason?

[Mike Irwin]

Ah, the joy of conventional wisdom and urban legend...

In the 1980s, revolvers and semi-autos were actually selling fairly close to parity in the United States.

Americans had access to a lot of good semi-autos in SA, DA, and high capacity.

They had access to a lot of good revolvers in blue and stainless steel.

Most police forces still carried revolvers for a number of reasons, including they were cheap, the training regimes were well established, officers were familiar with them, they were reliable, and no doubt that there was a bit of tradition involved.

Then, starting about 1984 as far as I can tell, things started to change.

Drugs became an increasing problem in the cities, only this time the level of violence began to escalate alarmingly.

There were a few, and I mean a FEW, highly publicized police-criminal shootouts where the criminals either used semi-auto rifles or high-capacity semi-auto handguns.

The newspapers and the gun magazines found a hook, an original one, and a VERY effective one -- "OUR POLICE ARE BEING OUT GUNNED!" -- with the unsaid implication being that the streets of America, even the small towns, were littered with the rotting corpses of cops who had shot their antiquated 6-shooters dry and were subsequently hacked into small hamburgery bits by these thugs with another catch phrase that caught on at the time, ASSAULT WEAPONS!

In short order, the gobbling heards emerged...

Gunshops started reporting sales of revolvers and single-action, single stack semi-autos coming to a virtual stand still. GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

Gobbling police commissions across the United States met to address the horrible plight of the underarmed police officer, with heavy emphasis being put on arguments that boiled down to essentially "if you're armed with a revolver, you're unarmed." GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

As all these police commissions go, so goes the gobbling public, lead by the popular newstand magazines of the day, which fanned the flames of public panic with article after article, month after month, on dead cops (Miami shootout, anyone?), underarmed cops, hyperarmed criminals, and the latest WONDERBLASTDEMONDERAZZES TRILLION SHOT HICAP SCUM SLAYER! GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

The situation got so bad that American Traitor Smith & Wesson (new reality show, Fox, are you listening?) had a circular "slide rule" to decipher the bewildering array of features, calibers, sizes, capacities, and finishes. GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

Then, enter the Black Dragon... Glock started hitting the American market in serious numbers, and made a HUGE coup... They started offering their guns to police forces across the nation at freaking bargain basement prices. Some companies complained that Glock was essentially dumping guns at below cost to police to get the public on board. Well, it worked. Glock grabbed market share at a pace that no other company could even hope to match, and the gobbling got even louder as the public HAD to have THE gun that the police were carrying to kill the bad guys! GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

If you were to read a gun magazine between 1986 and about 1992, you'd get the impression that revolvers had ceased to exist, that they had been run out to pasture as the gobbling police and public.

Police forces across the nation rearmed with high-capacity semi-autos, even small towns where the only use for a police handgun is normally to kill a cow or deer that wonders out onto the highway and gets hit.

The public, fanned into a frenzy, bought all of the high-capacity semi-autos it could lay its hands on, even in places where CCW was a fantasy.

Gun companies couldn't roll out new high-cap models fast enough to meet the public demand. The public scooped them up, even crappy ones, apparently on the theory that if it's high capacity, it must be good! GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

As can be expected through all of this, prices dramatically inflated to the public, and most of the gobbling herd got a decent gun at a high price, or a crappy gun at an outrageous price. GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!

The real effect of all of this, though?

The gun companies made a LOT of money making the guns to feed the frenzy.

The gun magazines made a LOT of money FUELING the frenzy.

The police got new guns, which in many cases were really unneeded.

In some cases in the large cities, though, the results were closer to disasterous. Many cities that rushed to rearm their undergunned, vulnerable, and dying police forces neglected to train their officers properly, with the result being a dramatic rise in unintentional shootings. The situation was FAR worse in those cities where Glock had convinced the gobbling police commissions to take their product. Washington, DC, is a prime example. Training times were being slashed while a new weapon was hitting the streets, with the direct result being that the number of shots, and misses, per incident went SKY high, the number of unintentional shootings (not only of suspects, but of COWORKERS) rose dramatically, and the city began paying out HUGE settlements to those who were shot, or their families.

Other cities that rearmed with semi-autos saw similar jumps in those figures.

And the reason all of this started?

That drug dealers were gunning down police armed with revolvers in the thousands?

Just like most hotly hyped "media trends," it was a flash in the pan that never really existed. It made for GREAT print, though, and sold copies.

Through it all, though, there was a small, silent, voice crying out of the wilderness...

The revolver.

To hear the gun magazines talk about it, revolvers were dead, never to be seen again.

But sales of small-frame revolvers not only remained strong during this time, they actually began to rise in the early 1990s, and began to surge with the passage of the high capacity magazine ban.

Gun companies started bringing out new small frame models at a rapid pace, to the point that now there are likely more small frame revolvers being sold every year than small-frame high capacity semi-autos.

All in all, the Wonder9 or High Capacity craze was one of the most interesting marketing trends of all time, fueled largely by an incidental collusion among the general news media, firearms publications, and a gobbling, gobbling, public.

[DeltaElite]

Geez Mike, had to take a nap half way through that post. hehe :D
Very nicely and very accurately stated.

I was a rookie cop in 1990 and we had the option of taking the issue Smith 66 loaded only with 38+p loads or buying our own 9mm and having a box of ammo on our gun belts.
Well, I went with the Glock, since I was ready for daily gun battles against machine gun armed drug dealers. :rolleyes:
Boy did I learn what a bunch of crap that was.

Anyway, like is posted earlier, we can't even carry a revolver as our primary weapon nowadays.
Give me that Smith 58 and I would be a happy camper. :D

[Mike Irwin]

Honest to God, Delta, I met a rookie cop once, a cop in a RURAL area of Pennsylvania, who was wearing a Glock 17 on his belt, and EIGHT spare magazines on his belt!

He had close to 100 rounds on him...

Wait a second...

That's well over 100 rounds!

[DeltaElite]

OMG Mike..... That is hilarious.
I figure my first two mags are for fighting and the last one is for firing over my shoulder as I make a "tactical retreat" aka running away. :D

[Quartus]

Nope, that's a reason why people who are well trained might benefit from a higher capacity auto. If you want to see the reason why the vast majority of us (private citizens) should be carrying wheelguns, watch some of those police video programs where the store owner gets shot while he is pointing his auto at the robber and pulling away on the trigger (with the safety on).


[list=1]
Anyone who thinks the average cop is "well trained" needs a reality check.

Anyone who carries (or keeps available) a gun for self defense, and doesn't make any effort to become well trained, is an idiot who deserves to get shot while he's "pointing his auto at the robber and pulling away on the trigger (with the safety on)".
[/list=1]


BTW, police officers ARE "private citizens".




On another note, I realize that not all criminals are machine gun toting Rambo's, but just how many times do you have to be outgunned before it counts? And I realize that training is more important than the choice of weapon, but is training ALL and the gun means NOTHING?

[whiskey]

Why do people compare CCW holders and self defenders to the police and military? If you are a cop or a solder in battle you often times have to stay and fight. You may have to lay suppresive fire for your patners to get into position. You probably need more rounds between reloads. Thus semi auto pistols and rifles are their usual choice. These men and women often have to advance on danger, not the norm in a self defence situation.

I know....anything can happen to anyone at anytime. Duh!

For a SELF defence weapon the revolver makes much more sense.

BTW, I carry a glock:)

[DeltaElite]

This story is from the mid 80's. The audio tape was played for us in the academy in 1990.

An off duty California cop got into a disagreement with some bikers and a shootout ensued. He was armed with a five shot Smith and no spare ammo.
He managed to put down three of them before they beat a retreat.
His surgical placement of shots, shows that any weapon if used properly is all you need. Three down with five shots.
Now that's good shootin' :D
It was an audio tape, because he was on the phone with a 911 dispatcher while shooting the bad guys. He was cool as ice.

So a revolver is a very viable self defense weapon, but I would carry some spare ammo, just in case. ;)

[Mike Irwin]

"On another note, I realize that not all criminals are machine gun toting Rambo's, but just how many times do you have to be outgunned before it counts? And I realize that training is more important than the choice of weapon, but is training ALL and the gun means NOTHING?"

When you break it down, life is nothing more than a series of statistical probabilities and balancing those probabilities.

The situation we saw in the 1980s was a good example of a system SERIOUSLY out of balance.

People lost their heads over a few over publicized incidents that, upon closer examination, weren't even remotely related to the reality in which they were living.

You knew people were caught up in the hysteria of the moment when places like Lower Thumbsuck Township, population 240, with three police officers, asks for $2,500 to buy the officers new Wondergunz because they are outgunned, when the reality of the situation is that Lower Thumbsuck Township hasn't had a serious crime in 20 years, and the last serious misdemeanor was Clancy Thumbsuck getting drunk and urinating in the fountain in the center of the town of Thumbsuck.

The hideous reality is that about 99.5 percent of all Joe Donuts never even draw their weapons in the line of duty and never see a serious crime.

Yet the hysteria of police being OUTGUNNED BY CRIMINALS WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS ruled.

If we truly lived our lives by the maxim of "just how many times do we have to be..." we'd all drive tanks, live in all-concrete homes, and walk around fully insulated from the potential of lightning strikes. Car crashes, home fires, and even lightning strikes are more of a serious threat to the general populace than being OUTGUNNED BY CRIMINALS WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Among police officers, car crashes and falls are far more dangerous than being OUTGUNNED BY CRIMINALS WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Yet our street cops don't drive tanks, nor do they walk around in rubber anti-fall shock absorbing suits.

[Adventurer_96]

revolvers = simplicity

Dude summed it up for me, we can never train as much for concealed carry as we'd like (unless it's your job) but I have another thought to share. Granted, this kind of gets into the whole "what if" scenario that was mentioned regarding semiautos, but I like to think that if I train a lot and my wife trains very little that she can still point and click with a revolver.

[megatronrules]

All very good replies.Thanks for the different opinions. I believe Col. Cooper said it best. "YOU'RE ONLY OUTGUNNED IF YOU MISS" :D

[fallingblock]

I lived through the times you so aptly describe and even went through the "high-cap" auto phase myself. Wrist problems returned me to revolvers slightly before the 'phase' peaked; as mentioned by another poster, you can't limp wrist a revolver.

Here in Australia, the number of Police ND's has risen sharply as the states re-equip with Glocks...I owned three Glocks and never had a safety problem, but the police were 'safer' (or, perhaps, less of a threat to themselves and their fellow officers) when using revolvers. Of course it's a training issue, but there are always limits to how much training the police receive.

I think what it comes down to is that less training and or motivation combined with need to carry a defensive handgun safely=revolver!:D

[Quartus]

When you break it down, life is nothing more than a series of statistical probabilities and balancing those probabilities.


You sure got that right. So the reason you'd choose to be less prepared was.... what?

[buzz_knox]

Let's flip the anti-revolver argument around a bit. Using the argument that you need firepower and lots of it, anyone not carrying a Glock 21 converted to .460 Rowland with prebans and +2 extensions is a fool.

You carry a 9mm? Must be a wimp. .357Sig? Getting better but we can still see your pink slip. 10mm? Almost, but not quite since the .460 is still more powerful. Try again.

You can't get your hands around a Glock 21? Well, you're not trying hard enough.

It doesn't fit your wardrobe? Gain weight and buy new clothes.

It isn't as accurate as your obsolete .357 mag revolver or equally obsolete 7 shot 1911? Big deal. What's more important when facing the hordes of evil goblins, accuracy or firepower?!

:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

...but just how many times do you have to be outgunned before it counts?

I have seen the phrase "outgunned" used one hundred and seventy three times in this thread, and someone has yet to explain how having a fifteen-shooter will cause bullets from a five-shooter to bounce off your chest.

"Ha-ha! Evildoer, I have you outgunned, for I have 8 magazines on tap for my wondernine!"
*bang!* sound of .25 going off. Once.
*clatter!* sound of tactical gear hitting ground.

[Marko Kloos]

Heh. It's like when Western analysts claimed we were "outgunned" by the Soviets, because we could nuke every city in their country only twenty times, while they could nuke every city in ours thirty times.

[Quantrill]

Revolvers are simpler and more dependable for personal self defense use. Years ago (and I readily admit things have changed a little) NYPD taught that the average police firearm encounter was 2.7 rounds at 7 yards or less. When social circumstances require it, I have always felt comfortable with a S&W model 36. Quantrill

[V-fib]

I like the revolver for it’s simplicity, it always shoots no matter what. And, if you want extra capacity go with speedloaders.

Good post Mike Irwin.
:cool:

[soonershooter]

I carry a high capacity 9mm when I do carry. However, once upon a time I worked armed security a place that was NOT a shopping mall and hookers and pimps were common sights. I never felt under gunned with a model ten and two speed loaders. I was very comfortable with the manual of arms, shot the gun well, and could reload with a speed loader about half a second slower than reloading an automatic.

For Quartus, the reason that a revolver is a great choice for self defense, and not just for those with closed minds, is that different people have different needs. The average CCW doesn't need to have an 18 round clip because in a CCW situation you are EXTREMEMLY unlikely to need to fire that many rounds. A police officer may be in a stiutation where he needs to fire multiple rounds at multiple attackers who may be in vehicles, behind glass, or otherwise hardened cover. Some people say that unlikely means that it could still happen. That is true but I don't wear body armor every day because it is so unlikely that I will need it that it is not worth the hassle.

Bottom line, I would never fault anyone for carrying a 640 in their pocket. Rounds on target count more than rounds on belt.

[Mike Irwin]

"You sure got that right. So the reason you'd choose to be less prepared was.... what?"

Funny, but ultimately completely foolish, question, Quartus.

Just to what extreme do you take "PREPAREDNESS"?

Logical extremes, based on what you realistically face, or illogical extremes based on extremely remote possibility of, as we so often see here, the S*** HITTING THE FAN!

Let's see...

I get up in the morning, and walk down the stairs to let the dogs. out. OH MY GOD! I COULD FALL DOWN THE STAIRS! I'd better pad the stairs, floor, and walls!

OH MY GOD! I have dogs! They could turn on me at any second! I need to wear a stainless steel chain mail suit at all times!

OH MY GOD! Someone could force his/her way into my house while I'm letting the dogs out! I'd better sweep the backyard with my shotgun from the upstairs window before I let them out!

OH MY GOD! I could fall out of the upstairs window while I'm sweeping the back yard! I'd better pad the patio!

OH MY GOD! I have to go out onto the patio to pad it, but how do I sweep the back yard if I can't lean out the upper window, but how can I be sure that I'm safe from someone forcing his/her way into the house?

OH MY GOD! I'm walking around the house with a loaded shotgun! What the hell am I thinking?

See how quickly the compulsion for "preparedness" can actually turn into paranoia?

All of the above scenarios can be easily solved.

My dogs won't maul me if I don't mistreat them. No brainer.

I won't fall down the steps if I hold onto the bannister. No brainer.

I won't fall out the window onto the patio if I don't lean out the window in the first place. No brainer.

I won't get mugged by someone forcing his way into my house if I look out the patio doors to make sure that no one's out there in the first place. No brainer.

Let's take this a step farther, however, and say I safely sweep the back yard, pad the patio, and don't get mugged at my backdoor or get mauled by my dogs...

I have to drive to work in the morning...

I travel over a bridge over a river. Am I being foolishly unprepared if I don't wear a Mae West life jacket?

I also drive a vehicle that produces carbon monoxied? Am I being foolishly unprepared for not wearing a breathing device supplied by an oxygen tank?

I normally have one or two boxes of ammo around for my primary CCW guns. Am I being foolishing unprepared because I don't have 5,000, or 50,000 rounds on hand at all times?

Tell me, if police truly WERE outgunned by hoards of bloodthirsty killer drug dealers who were cutting a bloody swath through the thin blue line on a daily basis, why stop at semi-auto handguns, and not arm every police officer in the United States with a Browning Automatic Rifle or an MP-5?

Are our police forces being foolishly unprepared by not providing officers with overwhelming firepower?

Especially given the fact that more police officers are killed every year in auto accidents than in shootouts, and the shootouts that do result in officers being killed are rarely the result of the bad guy having "overwhelming firepower"?

All of this really reminds me of the kind of hysteria that involved the growing AIDS outbreak some years ago.

People were panicking, believing they could get AIDS from soda bottles, toilet seats, etc., even AFTER it had been well proven that you couldn't get AIDS through casual contact.

How do you avoid getting AIDS? Don't have sex with people who are high risk, and don't share drugs/IV needles with the same people.

Kind if a no brainer, right?

Or were being foolishly unprepared because we didn't all rush to the kitchen and cut our penises off and wrapping ourselves in many layers of saran wrap?

Here's the solution, then, at the end of this long and sarcastic message.

Use your goddamned head. DON'T panic at every thing you hear. See how a particular scenario applies to YOUR life, and do the math from there.

If you don't, if you sucumb to every media fueled panic that comes down the pike, you're only going to end up paranoid, wrapped in tin foil, and hiding under your bed 24x7, going GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE at the top of your lungs.

[buzz_knox]

Mike, you really need to stop repressing and holding everything in. Let it out occasionally. ;)

[Mike Irwin]

Look at this...

Tommy the Hyper Prepared Turkey got his goose cooked by some chump with a shotgun...

He didn't even go down to someone with a HYPERDEADLY BULLET SPITTING MACHINE ASSAULT GUN WEAPON O'DEATH!

Remember, as Tommy the Hyper Prepared Turkey used to say...

GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE! :)

http://www.waterfowlspecialist.com/turkeypicalbum/images/pic05_jpg.jpg

[Kentucky Rifle]

Tamara: <snicker> "Sound of .25 going off".

I've been toting .32 mag & .38 special revolvers lately. Just a "thing", I reckon. However, when I went downtown a few weeks ago to visit a gunsmith in a "not too good" area~~I strapped on my G27, Jetfire in my side pocket, Seecamp in my back pocket, and the revolver went into an ankle holster. (When I go downtown I always feel like I'm going into combat.) A little overkill you say? Maybe, but a few days before, a man had casually walked into the shop, jumped the counter, pointed his handgun at the gunsmith and ripped off money and weapons. I'm still trying to figure out HOW he jumped the counter. It's a HIGH counter. It's not just a counter either. It has about two feet of vertical steel bars on TOP of the counter! As long as there are bad guys out there who can DO that, I'm going to be armed to the teeth. (Yeah, yeah...I know.)

KR

[Mike Irwin]

Kentucky Rifle,

I'm SURPRISED at you!

You're obviously woefully underprepared if you've only got three guns on you!

You need at LEAST 27 firears on your person at all times, with at LEAST 100 rounds of ammo for EACH gun!

Haven't you learned ANYTHING? NOTHING at all?

[soonershooter]

I share Mike's concern for your well being. First, you are not carrying any weapon with a capacity of over 11 rounds. Second, you are obviously close minded because you carry a revolver, and as backup you rely on if SHTF no less!!! Might I recommend an OA98 if you are venturing out of the house.;)

[buzz_knox]

Actually, you need to find the prototype 7.62X39mm version that Oly produced. After all, in Blackhawk Down, it became clear that .223 was ineffective against mobs and you need maximum knockdown power when going out.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Hee Hee~~I KNEW I'd catch it from you guys when I made that post!
I don't know how it happened, really.
I just started strapping them on, hiding them in pockets, and it was like water off a cliff! I've sometimes wondered how many I COULD carry "concealed". Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. Good saturday project.
Anybody ever tried it? :p

KR

[Mike Irwin]

Well, KR, don't worry...

If you're woefully underprepared, I'm the walking dead.

I carry an S&W 042.

5 shot.

.38 Spl.

No reloads.

I've done that more often than not going on 15 years now.

By all rights and estimations of the GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE SHTF folks, I'm already dead.

I'm just not smart enough to fall down.

I guess I'm not smart enough to feel paranoid, either.

Sigh.

As John Wayne said...

Life's tough. It's tougher when you're stupid... :D

[jar]

There are a couple other things that I find important that haven't been brought up yet.

One very strong feature that all revolvers share is their utter simplicity. It's very possible that should I ever get involved in one of those shoot out situations most folk prepare for, that I will end up either having to shoot weak handed or turn my handgun over to someone who is not gun knowledgeable. In either of those cases, revolvers shine.

First, revolvers are basically unhanded. The only control is the cylinder release. Many people I shoot with have also noticed that they shoot better and more intuitively weak handed with a revolver than with their semi-automatic.

Second, the MOA for revolvers is so simple that you can literally hand a revolver to someone who has never held, shot or loaded one and they can immediately and intuitively figure out how it works.

[DeltaElite]

Mike,
Shame on you for taunting me with a BAR or a MP5. :p
I am so distraught. :neener:

I still want my Smith 58 durnit. :D

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, Delta?

Didn't I mention this?

I've got a Model 58.

Nice gun....

[Coltdriver]

So many guns, so little time:D

If you have enough of em, you will probably think your way into a revolver sooner or later.

Utterly simple, j frame small and easy to shoot right from the inside of your jacket pocket. No muss, no fuss, just SURPRISE:neener: :p

[ACP]

Kentucky Rifle, When I took my NRA basic safety course for my CCW, the instructor wowed everyone by "undressing" after about 30 minutes of talk and revealing something like 11 handguns concealed on his person. He had pistols in belt holsters, tucked waistbands, in back and front pockets, and in ankle holsters.

[Kentucky Rifle]

ACP: 11 eh? That's pretty good. If my back wasn't hurting so much today, I'd try to beat that record. (WHY can't the weather stay the same in Kentucky and give my back a little break???)

Mike: It was FOUR pistols. (And a big knife too. :) )

KR:D

[Tamara]

Four?!?

You paranoiac!

If you were sane, like me, you'd realize that a Jetfire in your right jacket pocket, a Bodyguard Airweight in your left, and a 296Ti in your, um, my purse was plenty! ;)

[Kentucky Rifle]

What AM I going to do? Four pistols and a BIGGGG frog sticker. I can't explain it. I'm getting dressed and thinking about going downtown and I figure I need a back up. Then a back up for the back up then, etc, etc...(Plus the knife!):scrutiny:

KR

[mrstang01]

Kentucky, you need to work downtown (like I do!). Then you'd be content with a 1911 (or one of my .44 revolvers) and a P32 for backup!

Michael

[Sarge]

Regular folks wanna buy what they see in the movies, on a magazine cover or in a cop's holster. Lottle copshops wanna buy what the big dogs like NYPD & LAPD are using.

What's funny about it all is that if a man knows how to shoot, its still pretty hard to beat a good .357 D/A or 1911. Back when some of started carrying 1911s 20 years ago, everybody had a cow. Now the big dogs like LAPD SWAT are using them, so I 'spose they'll be kosher for Fudville PD before long.

Any of them will do the trick if you take the time to learn that particular gun, stick with it, and then stay cool when the fat's in the fire. The first and second are no big deal, but #3 can be a real challenge.

[Shooter Solutions]

I love a good revolver for its simplicity. :)

Roll over Bill Gates and Macintosh!

The revolver is to shooting what the mouse is to computing!

Very simple to operate!

At any time:

Just point and click! :D

[gumshoe4]

I'm with Mike. We get way too paranoid in our choice and number of firearms and not observant enough of what's going on around us.

I normally carry a 649 5-shot 2" or a 2" SP101. Why? Because I'm not going anywhere, doing anything or creating the necessity to be in an extended firefight. I'm usually with my family and I'm not going to steer them anyplace where something like that is likely to happen. Yes, I know it could happen anytime and anywhere. If it does and I'm with my family, my personal response will be to use the weapons to cover the family's getaway and to follow them likewise. When I'm on my own time, I don't have a radio, a patrol, uniformed backup, a helicopter and spotter and variety of other things. I avoid fights and brouhahas like the plague and don't hang out in biker bars.

Despite all that, sometimes stuff happens and that's why I carry one or the other revolver (and occasionally both). Is it wrong, silly or stupid to carry a 15-shot 9mm pistol for personal defense? No, it'll work fine, but let's not forget that 9/10ths of personal defense is to try not to allow yourself to be snookered into a dangerous position and to be aware of what's going on around you. Let's not be so enamoured of hardware that we misplace the software (common sense).

Bob
TFL# 8032

[chaim]

I like both and they both do have advantages over each other.

Why a revolver:
-it is simpler and easier to use: No safety to worry about, only a DA trigger is great when in a defensive situation.
-it is more reliable
-should it fail to fire simply pulling the trigger again is much easier than the ritual you have to go through with an auto
-five or six shots is more than enough in the 99.9% of the shootings you may end up in- FBI still shows the average gun shots fired in defensive situations as being under 3. Even a snub can handle that without a reload
-reloading with speed loaders isn't much slower than reloading an auto

Why an auto:
-it carries more rounds- yes you probably won't need it but it is nice to have.
-some are slimmer and easier to conceal
-it is usually more than reliable enough
-with a SA auto on safe the first trigger pull is easier and faster- with a DAO you don't need a safety and it is just as easy a manual of arms as a revolver

Now many auto advantages are exclusive of each other. A high cap auto is usally pretty big and the grip area is probably wider than the cylinder of a revolver and thus very hard to conceal. A slim easy to conceal auto usually only holds 5, 6 or 7 rounds so has no real advantage in capacity over a revolver. Also, a 5 shot snub has a really slim cylinder if you measure it and if you compare even a 6 shot cylinder to the wide point in an auto (the grip area) instead of to its narrow point (the slide) as is usually done you'll probably see little difference.

I like both but find I use a revolver far more often for home defense. I do ocassionally load up my 1911 or CZ 75 either instead of or in addition to my revolvers. I can see the advantage of a single stack auto for some concealment locations for comfort but on the belt I'd prefer a revolver. I've carried both around the house in holsters and don't have a clear preference for comfort IWB (but see how some could) and see no difference on a belt. For pocket carry I prefer an auto. When MD becomes CCW or I move to a CCW state I see myself switching off but usually using a revolver- not being a cop I find the advantages of the revolver's reliability to outweight the "advantages" of an auto's capacity.

For most of us, as with most other things, it is a matter of preference and is probably more determined by the gun itself than the type (I will probably carry an auto sometimes not because it is an auto but because I really like 1911s and my CZs).

[4thHorseman]

IMO one thing a revolver has going for it, when was the last time you heard of a revolver accidently discharging? I never have. Maybe some of you have, but it is as rare as hens teeth. I know all about training and all about the safety of a semi auto, but something that I feel secure in knowing, when I carry I have to pull the trigger to discharge it, it has to be conscience effort and action. I don't really want any flames about the safeties on semi auto, I have plenty of them also, but do not carry them often as I do revolvers. A revolver takes more practice shot accurately. I think a semi auto takes alot of practice with to be able to handle it better. In that I mean, become familiar with it. How to clear, it if neccessary and able to remove safeties if it has them. Like many of you have stated, if you are going to take the offense, use a shot gun. A revolver is a great retreat weapon. If I was in the service or law enforcement, I would choose a semi auto because you have more offensive situations.
One thing about semi autos, they are show much fun to shot!!!
Remember though, this is all subjective.

[Boats]

In one segment of society you are almost certain to find autopistols favored to near exclusivity and that is with southpaws. I have nothing against the revolver conceptually, except that a speed reload of a revolver for a lefty is a top strap grabbing affair that resembles wheelgun juggling. Make mine a 1911A1 with an ambi-safety any day of the week.:evil: Besides, the SAO trigger of old slabsides is better than any DA pull I have ever encountered, even on my friend's slicked up revos.

Practicing (draw-safety off-double tap-safety on-reholster-repeat) a few thousand times with a 1911 will make the thumb safety an unconcious manipulation that always goes well. It is often said that in stressful situations the training takes over. I have found that to be true, but only when the preparation has actually been done. Why would an autopistol be unamenable to proper training?

No one should have an autopistol if they are unwilling to train with it. Except a left hander, they might always best be advised to at least get a DAO auto because praticing reloading a revolver with the "wrong" hand is more complicated than learning the manual of arms for a bottomfeeder.

[cratz2]

I think the biggest advantage to the revolvers, esp of the small pocket-carried variety is that if need be, they can be fired repeatedly from inside the pocket. Not likely with a pistol.

I'd also be willing to bet that a lot of the auto loader preference, esp with those under 40 or so, comes from the extra rounds in the pistol. And I would further hypothesize that most 45 ACP/1911 fans would be more likely to embrace a carry revolver than would the fans on the 18 round polymer 9mm crowd. Some find comfort in having lots of bullets, those that can shoot very well and don't go around picking fights with 10 people at a time find comfort in a few well placed shots.

Just my theory. :eek:

[Mike Irwin]

"In one segment of society you are almost certain to find autopistols favored to near exclusivity and that is with southpaws."


Speak for yourself, sonny.

This southpaw is a revolver shooter first and foremost.

[Boats]

"In one segment of society you are almost certain to find autopistols favored to near exclusivity and that is with southpaws."


Speak for yourself, sonny.

This southpaw is a revolver shooter first and foremost.

Do tell. How is it that you speed reload your revolver? Have you ever competed with them against right-handed revo shooters?:D

Don't get me wrong, I like revolvers, especially the long range SA ones where reloading is not a big deal, but I would never employ a revo as a primary CCW or home defense weapon because the reloads for a left hander are so slow compared with an auto, and you never know if/when a reload might be called for.

[Nightcrawler]

Well, I'm as left handed as they get.

I love revolvers. I only own one, but I love it. Reloads are a snap; you simply transfer the gun to your right hand. A little slower, yes, but it works. It's making due with what you have.

Now, if modern revolver makers would actually TRY to make a modern top-break instead of simply saying it can't be done, maybe then we'd really get somewhere...

(The Russians have now produced a top-break .357.)

[TallPine]

IMO one thing a revolver has going for it, when was the last time you heard of a revolver accidently discharging? I never have. Maybe some of you have, but it is as rare as hens teeth.

Oh, yeah - it happens all the time ...

Somebody points a revolver at somebody else, pulls the trigger, and it "accidently goes off."

At least, that's what they say .... :rolleyes:

[Boats]

Yeah, a modern break-top revolver would be way cool.:cool:

[Mike Irwin]

Boats,

I transfer the gun from left to right during the reload, or I simply start shooting from the right side and stay there.

I never realized this until a friend of mine pointed it out to me, but during matches I often start shooting with the gun in my left hand, do the required or necessary reload, and finish shooting with the gun in my right hand.

Learn to use both hands. That's why God gave'em to ya. :D

[Nightcrawler]

The Russians did it.

Visit World.Guns.Ru (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg49-e.htm).

[Marko Kloos]

Funny...I'm right-handed, but I transfer the gun over to my left hand for reloading.

I unlatch the cylinder with my right thumb and transfer the revolver to my left as it opens. The fingers of the left hand grab through the frame window and hold the cylinder. The left hand tilts the gun muzzle-up, the right hand smacks the ejector rod. Reloads are done with the right hand, due to the fact that I have much more dexterity with my right hand, and therefore less likely to fumble the reload.

I know the right-hand method where you pivot the gun muzzle-up and hit the ejector rod with the thumb of the right hand, but I can never get my reload times as fast as with the method described above. Guess I need to work on becoming ambidextrous.

[fallingblock]

When I was shooting service, I would start with the 625 in the left hand, fire the six, transfer to right, ejecting the empties on the way, and pop the moon clip into the cylinder with the left; finishing the string with the right hand:D

I believe I could reload that 625 as fast as I could have a 1911 ;)

[Adventurer_96]

I forgot to mention, one TFL poster said in a similar post over there that what impressed him with a revolver is that one can shoot six rounds without leaving shell casings behind as forensic evidence. :rolleyes:

[Blackhawk]

I like revolvers, but I prefer autoloaders for defense CCWs. They're flatter....

[Gary A]

Geez, Adventurer, that may be true but the implication is not very attractive. It seems to assume shooting and fleeing the scene which doesn't seem to indicate a "righteous" shoot. I know such things happen but fleeing a shooting scene doesn't strike me as a virtue. It is said we are responsible for what happens to every bullet we fire downrange. Running away, hoping to not be found out, sounds like an abdication of that responsibility. At that point there are two criminals involved. The one who was shot and the one who fled. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sound high and mighty. I can't promise, were I in such a situation, that I would not panic and run, although I would hope not, but it would not change the fact that I would have to run and "hide" the fact for a very, very long time and would have crossed a line that put me on the other side. Sorry, that's not a goal of mine and I don't want to have to live with such secrets.

[22luvr]

My Uncle was a police officer and later, a bank robbery investigator for the LAPD for 30 years. The only thing he carried was the venerable Smith and Wesson Model 36 "Chief's Special" most of his career. He's happily retired and the little wheelgun saved his bacon more than once.

Good enough for him, good enough for me.

Why do I like'em?

*simplicity
*reliability
*not ammo-sensitive
*self-contained (no clips to lose)
*MT's stay in the gun until ejected by shooter, not scattered all over the place.
* lightweight, easily concealed
* can be handled and understood easily by a novice in an emergency. ("here, point this and pull trigger...")
* Can be shot virtually in any position
* Makes a good bludgeon when MT
*very difficult to take out of battery (many autoloaders can be taken out of battery with as little as 1/8" rearward slider travel!)
*most are SA/DA.....your choice of shooting effectiveness/style
*a revolver is almost universally and instantly recognized as a GUN by whomever it is leveled against, often causing an immediate cessation of hostilies and quick retreat.
*longevity- A revolver can sit dormant in a nightstand drawer for many years and be brought into immediate action with devastating results with minimal preparation.
*the hammerless variety can be fired directly from a pocket

Not only that, but they're purdy and really fun to shoot!

[Kentucky Rifle]

If I had to go downtown more than once a month...I'd go nuts! (Or "nuttier". Is that a word?) I have to go downtown once a month for a haircut and beard trim, and I feel like I'm going into combat. Those strange people (some wearing SUITS), those dark parking garages. <shudder> The very last time I was downtown (a week ago), a guy walked up to me and said, "Mister, can you tell me the time"? (He had on a watch and his girlfriend stood about 20 feet away and kept looking left & right, left & right...like she was checking to see if the coast was clear.) I was trapped. The elavator was taking it's time. Alarm bells were going off in my head. He had that "look". I put my hand behind me and looked into his eyes. He must have seen the, "Hey, this guy is gonna kill me PTSD fueled craziness look in my eyes because he said "thank you" and backed away".
Nope~~I ONLY go downtown when I have to. There are other barbers. But I've been going to the same guy for 27 years. He came to the HOSPITAL to cut my hair! He also came to my father in law's HOME to cut his hair after he had his heart attack. I have to be loyal to this guy. So, I put up with going downtown.

KR

[Diesle]

Its a nasty compromise. If you go auto you give up the reliability and simplicity. If you go revolver you give up capacity.

With a statistical 80% or greater miss rate, I think capacity is tipping the scale...

Diesle

[mrstang01]

Now hold on, unfortunately, when I'm at work, I'm one of those strangers in suits! I know what you mean though, I try to not wonder off the beaten path no further than I have to.

Sounds like you were being set up for sure. Last time that happened to me, uh, I mean to a friend of mine, I think he said that his coat came back and exposed his 1911, and the dude beat feet.

[Gmac]

KR,Sounds like things have changed for the worse since I was at Fort Knox in '68.

[sixgun_symphony]

I work downtown. In fact I get there by riding metro bus which can sometimes be like sitting inside the cages with the animals at the zoo.

I carry a Detective Special with a spyderco clipit knife for backup.

[Pendragon]

80% statistical miss rate?

Look up Bernie Goetz.

His little wheelie got the job done against 4 perps.

I am not an average person, nothing in my life fits the statistics.

[charleym3]

With a statistical 80% or greater miss rate, I think capacity is tipping the scale
Among who? What's the source of this data?

[Adventurer_96]

Gary: I know what you mean, I didn't agree with this guy's implication at all but I figure it was good for a laugh. It would be a good point in a mystery/cop novel though.

[Gary A]

Adventurer_96, Yeah, you're right and I figured you meant it that way. I just wanted to throw in some ballast lest unfriendlies get an unbalanced picture of we gun owners by treating humor as fact. LOL, this is "The High Road", after all. No slight to you intended.

[Poohgyrr]

Geez.

Autoloaders and revolvers both have strong points that I want to take full advantage of if needed. I really believe training and mindset are more important than picking auto vs revolver.

One real concern to beware of is overconfidence; a reason I shoot IDPA- so I can see up close and personal just how much better I need to be. This helps to keep me honest and my head on straight.

A pet peeve: if one or two shots is all we need, then why aren't we all packing a short barreled side by side 12 ga.??? Or a .38 derringer???
:fire:

[Adventurer_96]

None taken. I just get a kick out of so-many mall ninjas and chairborne rangers out there who come up with this stuff for these forums. Generally, there's good information and conversation around here and a few others, falfiles being one, but one must always take a grain of salt with some of these stories.

[Mike Irwin]

"then why aren't we all packing a short barreled side by side 12 ga.???"

If I could....

I would.

[BignJames]

I keep the revolver closest to the bed, then the 12ga.,then the 9mm. BTW is anybody keeping score?

[twoblink]

First, as twoblink WOULD say... The semi's are more evil looking and more tactical..

That said, my Ruger SP101 with 357Mag 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Points, sat on my nightstand for 2 years as my homeD gun..

Reasons why are obvious:

Like you said; I've left 5 rounds in there for about 2 years... No worries about spring fatigue... I can keep it holstered, and if I do, I don't worry about out of battery, light strikes etc.. I pull the trigger, I hear a click... PULL the TRIGGER AGAIN!!

I have a friend (who shall remain nameless) that swears that my Ruger revolver is there for suicide purposes only, that anything short of 10 rounds of .45ACP is not for self-defense, but for suicide...

OK... someone PLEASE name me something that I couldn't kill with 125grain .357Mag that I can with a .45ACP?? Yeah, I don't think so...

Adventurer_96... That was _ME_ that said revolvers don't leave shells as forensic evidence; also if you have hardwood floors, nothing to slip on, no brass on the floor...

I can't stand it when people think capacity is a replacement for good training [Insert Jeff White's views on training here!!]

I am more fearful of a trained man with a revolver then an untrained man with a Glock 17 and 17 rounds...

There was an article in one of the gun rags that talked about the snubbie revolvers being one of the toughest weapons to pry from anybody's hands, and of course, it's got quite a bit of advantage over a Beretta; I mean if you have the old Beretta's, someone can just shank the slide off :rolleyes: Also, I can shoot 2" groups easily with my SP101, using 38Spls... And as they are small, they feel like I'm just pointing my finger, and so are very combat accurate when shooting combat style (instinctive shooting, pointing by finger, not by sight)

There are quite a bit of advantages to revolvers as homeD... I for one am a big fan of them..

Also, if you have other family members, then a revolver takes a BIG leap forward as far as advantages...

I don't have to teach the gf, "Honey, if you pull the trigger, and you hear a click instead of a bang, Tap - Rack - then try to pull again... unless you have a class 3 jam, in which case, first remove, the magazine, then rack the slide back, check to see if there is a second bullet still in the barrel, if so, rack again, if not,insert the magazine again, then tap-rack-bang! All the while asking the perp to wait for you while you reset your grock....)

Now when I took my ex-gf shooting, she only shot the revolver... why? Aim, pull the trigger... Simple instructions... In a panic, I don't know if I will be able to perform as needed if I get a FoF with a semi...

[twoblink]

Ooops... Being left handed, I forgot to address the left-handed issue.

I shoot, left hand on the grip, left finger on trigger. Right hand wrapped around.. I find that I reload FASTER then most right handers... here's why.

When I'm done, I slide my right hand thumb around (as it was on the top layer, wrapped around my left hand) and I press the barrel release tab... I (with my left hand) push the barrel out from the bottom so it flops out. That leaves my left thumb in perfect position to press the rod, and eject the rounds, as I grab the revolver by the barrel, with the thumb depressing the ejector rod. This is fast, very very fast, and I free my right hand to grab a speed loader... I never transfer my gun to the right hand... I keep it all in my left hand..

Those of you who are left handed should try this... Easy as pie, and fast.