[stumpers]

I found my first restaurant that I like in my city that bans guns on their premises. Buffalo Wild Wings in Eau Claire, WI. I knew other BWWs banned guns, but I just noticed the sign at my local franchise last night.

I felt compelled to write to them about their policy and I feel that if any of you on THR are of like or similar mind, you should take a few minutes and go online and give them some feedback.

I rarely say much about anything, but I actually like BWWs but abhor their gun policy and would like to patronize them if they change their policy.

Here is the text of the message I left on the feedback section of their website:


To Whom It May Concern,

On my most recent visit to Buffalo Wild Wings a member of my group directed my attention to the notice near the front entrance that states "Buffalo Wild Wings bans guns..."

Why does Buffalo Wild Wings ban the state-licensed, lawful carry of guns by its customers?

I have been a very frequent customer of Buffalo Wild Wings for the past few years, visiting the Eau Claire, Wisconsin location once every week or two. I appreciate the food quality and generally great service, but had I noticed the "no guns" sign previously, I would not have continued to patronize Buffalo Wild Wings.

I will not visit Buffalo Wild Wings again until the gun policy is changed.

There are numerous other places in Eau Claire, including taverns, bars and grills, and restaurants that serve alcohol, that do allow patrons to carry firearms in accordance with state law. Most businesses in the city post "guns and alcohol don't mix" signs, but Buffalo Wild Wings's outright banning of guns is a step too far and an unwelcome policy in a state where approximately 100,000 citizens are licensed to carry concealed weapons.

Thank you in advance for a response on this issue. I am curious as to why this policy exists, what its intended purpose is, and what it has accomplished for Buffalo Wild Wings and its patrons.

Sincerely,

Chris Stump

[stumpers]

And the near instant response from Buffalo Wild Wings (which is probably a standard, canned response that fails to address me, personally, in a standard, respectful manner, fails to address what should be the most important thing to BWWs - keeping a customer, and at the minimum, address the reasons why they have the policy) :

Hello

Buffalo Wild Wings respects the right of individuals to carry firearms but we do not believe they are appropriate inside of a public restaurant. We are focused on the comfort, safety and enjoyment of all of our guests and have elected to exercise our right to restrict the carrying of firearms in our restaurants. We regret any inconvenience this may cause but believe that this policy is in the best interest of all of our guests and our Team Members.

Kind Regards,

Guest Relations
Buffalo Wild Wings
5500 Wayzata Blvd.
Suite 1600
Minneapolis, MN 55416
800-499-9586

[mnhntr]

Funny no sign on my local BWW

[hso]

We have had other BWW threads before and we usually find the franchise has made a decision to post or not. Please make sure that you're focused on the franchise and not the corporate is you want the most benefit. Point out that permit holders are a good demographic because they follow the law, have some discretionary money to spend, have no history of violence or they couldn't get a permit AND that the people they they're actually worried about aren't permit holders.

[stumpers]

hso - Thanks, I should have said something about permit holders being a good demographic and will use that in the future with any similar issue.

Also, the response I got was from corporate, which is odd since some BWWs are not posted.

[hso]

The ones here aren't.

[Erik M]

The BWW in Morehead KY does not have any signs prohibiting firearms on the premises....however
http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/conceal.htm

A concealed firearm SHALL NOT be carried in the following places:

Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose.

Is a sports bar, and who is to decide what the portions are?

[justice06rr]

Erik, as far as I know, the actual bar counter is the portion of the restaurant prohibited from firearms. The rest of the restaurant is ok because they still serve food.

[loose noose]

I believe Justice is correct in his assumption, further if you have alcohol at your booth you are not allowed to carry.

[stumpers]

Just to follow up and clarify: corporate BWW's policy is no guns, but not all locations are corporate and the franchise BWWs set policy at their own discretion?

[txgunsuscg]

All the BWWs I've been into in VA have them. I'll have to start looking in other states....

[blarby]

If the corporate policy is no guns, I don't see a problem addressing them as a group.

If the franchise policy is no guns, I see no problem addressing them as a group either.

The franchise fee still goes to the corp either way.

They benefit mutually ( franchise to franchise, and corp to franchise, and franchise to corp) from shared advertising, corporate philosophy, and branding. they should pain from the same.

The franchisee knows what they are buying into, one way or the other. Enough pressure on either side, if they were really concerned ( which obviously, they are not) would cause change across the board. Franchisee's can be held/forced to adhere to standards of operations and performance.

Thats just me tho. Obviously, some disagree.

[Owen Sparks]

I live in the deep South and the franchise here has no such sign.

[bikerdoc]

It is legal to carry concealed in Va, in an Alcohol establishment as long as the CCW holder does not drink. If the joint is posted and you are discovered and asked to leave you must or face a tresspass charge

That is neither here or there, as the old saying goes.

Let me share a successful plan of action on a local restaurant that had a no gun sign.

Said restaurant was a favorite haunt for me and my other grizzled retired friends. Never a problem for years until the father died and dimwit son put up the sign.

We spoke to the son and were dismissed as it did not fit his plans to make the place more upscale.
Ok JR, you bought the whole can of butt kick.
We still went but left the weapons in the vehicles. Funny how you can nurse a Dr Pepper and a burger for 2 hours.
We observed and reported numerous violations to the Alcohol Beverage Control Commission.
We reported health code violations.
We reported abuse of the Handicapped parking spaces.

We told all our friends and family not to go there.

Sales dropped, the rep got ruined, and Jr sold out to a guy who changed the name and took down the sign.

Give me age and treachery over youthful enthusiasm anytime.

[hso]

If the franchise policy is no guns, I see no problem addressing them as a group either.


The problem with it is that the corporation has no control over such posting by the owner. It does no good to try to influence the corporation in that case AND it makes us appear to be ignorant and heavy handed.

Identify the actual source of the decision to post and focus the effort there instead of wasting it aiming at the wrong target.

[Sav .250]

Seems to me you have 2 choices. Don`t go there anymore or over look their policy and chow down.

You wrote them. They wrote you. It`s a wash.

There are places that do not allow "carry" ....it`s just the way it is. :)

[Cascade1911]

So don't give 'em your money....

[elrowe]

I believe Justice is correct in his assumption, further if you have alcohol at your booth you are not allowed to carry.
Not true in KY, the booth is not primarily for the serving of alcohol, but the bar would be. There's actually no restriction against alcohol consumption while armed in KY - although it's a really bad idea.

[cambeul41]

Bikerdoc --

Good story, good plan of action!

[beatledog7]

I don't eat there anyway. Guess I won't start.

[hso]

It is important to know that each state, and sometimes each jurisdiction, has their own rules on carry in places that serve alcohol AND that your personal experience in your state/jurisdiction is not the same as everywhere. It is ignorance to the point of hubris to think that your jurisdiction is the same as everywhere in this patchwork of firearms laws.

The best thing you can do when confronted with an anti carry posting is to speak with the manager of the establishment, get their name, get the name and address of the owner and put them on notice that their posted policy is pointless and will cause you to work to take money from them and put it into the hands of their competitors who do not post against legal carry. Make that clear to the manager and to the owner (be sure you know who that is) and you'll go a lot further in putting your energy to good effect.

For those who make the decision to do nothing, you can tag along too as others do the heavy lifting for you.

[brnmuenchow]

I go there every Tuesday for $.50 wing Tuesday with some of the guy's at work and I have never really looked at their signs. I work on a military base so I can't carry anyway, so it really does not matter for me any how. If I didn't love the "Desert Heat" all- drums so much it might bother me. :D

[hso]

it really does not matter for me any how

If you profess that gun ownership is a right how can it not matter when a retailer tells you that you're not welcome if you exercise that right?

[paintballdude902]

all of the ones ive been to serve alcohol.... in most states this makes it off limits

[Texas-Sgt]

Fortunately Texas has the 51% law for where you can/can't carry that serves alcohol .. if they derive 51% of their income from the sales of alcohol for consumption on the premises you can't carry there and it will be posted with a sign at the entrances.

[Twmaster]

That's a shame. I like BWW. I guess they are now off limits for me. I don't have a permit yet.

However I will not patronize businesses with anti policies.

[brnmuenchow]

If you profess that gun ownership is a right how can it not matter when a retailer tells you that you're not welcome if you exercise that right?

As I said I work on a military base, you can't carry... not even in your vehicle (You have no choice in that matter)... I "ONLY" go on $.50 Tuesday at lunch. So speaking for myself and not carrying while at work unless you want to go to prison it does not matter. Now you catch me on a Saturday eating wings I will be armed, or I won't be in the restaurant... but I only go on Tuesday for my lunch break. I do not have to like it but it is unfortunately what I have to sacrifice for my service to my country that gives myself and everyone else the right to carry anytime they want. (The only difference is I don't get a choice during the week to carry whenever or wherever):confused:
Curious as to if they have a sign or not at the resturant we go to on Tuesday's a co-worker who also has a CHL that can't carry said it does not have any signs out prohibiting firearms, I do not know if BWW structure is independently owned or not... I guess if they make it a franchise wide anti-gun decision than no I will not be going, but that to my knowledge has not happened yet.

[mgmorden]

Sadly this isn't even an issue here. Though there's been lots of work to change it recently, in SC if they serve alcohol - at all (doesn't matter how much of their business is derived from it nor if you're actually drinking), then its a no-carry zone.

End result is that aside from the most bland/boring of fast food places, restaurants are pretty much off-limits as a category. With the restrictions here its sad, but my carry piece spends more time in the glove box than on my hip.

[brnmuenchow]

mgmorden: For that I do feel for you, I recently had a conversation with my father over the weekend about places that allow you to carry. Due to the fact that I do work on a military base and can't carry at all, he worries about me in restaurants at lunch. There have been many situations here in Texas or everywhere for that matter in the past where people are sitting down to eat in a restaurant and a gunmen comes in and starts shooting random people... that has always bothered me, and I always try to sit near an emergency exit. I hope SC can change that in the future, because believe me if and when I am not at work, I carry at all times.

[WTR]

Hmmm, the one near me doesn’t have this sign.

Sad, I usually go there once a week with friends to watch one of the games. Guess we’ll have to find another spot.

[Twmaster]

Now that I think about it I do not recall seeing a sign in the Plano Texas location. I don't think I saw a 51% sign either.

[razorback2003]

I have not seen one at the new Buffalo Wild wings in Little Rock. These restaurants are franchises. I have heard whoever owns the ones in Tennessee puts up some sort of sign but I have never noticed one in the Memphis area.

[stumpers]

I wonder how franchise owners who allow guns due to their pro-2A views (or indifference to customers carrying) feel about the anti-gun corporate response I received. I'm not looking for an answer, just thinking.

[valnar]

You are allowed to like BW3 food AND guns, just not at the same time. So when you're hungry and standing at the doors, which do you like more at that moment? If the answer is always your CCW piece, then you've made up your mind. The decision, either way, should be fairly easy.

I like BW3 and have no problem taking off my CCW, but that's because I go numerous places where I have to do the same. It's normal for me. I suppose if I lived in a town where BW3 was the only place I'd frequent with that policy, I guess it would come across as big negative, but this is fairly common around some parts.

[BBQLS1]

No signs in Baton Rouge.

[Double Naught Spy]

fails to address what should be the most important thing to BWWs - keeping a customer, and at the minimum, address the reasons why they have the policy) :

I can't hardly see why you say BWWs failed to address what you think should be most important to BWW, the keeping of the customer. You didn't ask what is or should be the most important thing to BWWs. Keeping the customer isn't necessarily what is most important to BWWs. I think that you will find that in places that make food, keeping the customer isn't the most important thing. Many put customer safety ahead of many of their other policies. After all, customers getting food poisoning from eating there may get sick and even die.

I am not sure that your unsolicited telling them what their primary policy should be instead of what it is isn't likely to advance your cause. No individual business owner or even corporation has much appreciation for the opinions of those who feel the need to tell them how to run their business and what its value should be.

[Dean1818]

The ones in dallas area have the sign.......

Not a 51 % sign......

It looks to not follow Texas law


I sent an email and got the same response

[elrowe]

I can't hardly see why you say BWWs failed to address what you think should be most important to BWW, the keeping of the customer. You didn't ask what is or should be the most important thing to BWWs. Keeping the customer isn't necessarily what is most important to BWWs. I think that you will find that in places that make food, keeping the customer isn't the most important thing. Many put customer safety ahead of many of their other policies. After all, customers getting food poisoning from eating there may get sick and even die.

I am not sure that your unsolicited telling them what their primary policy should be instead of what it is isn't likely to advance your cause. No individual business owner or even corporation has much appreciation for the opinions of those who feel the need to tell them how to run their business and what its value should be.
What? Food poisoning? Are you advocating that they post a sign banning e-coli too?

Regardless, this is a weapons thread, so:

What does keeping my CCW that nobody ever will see unless it's to defend someone do to improve safety? I buy my wings elsewhere. I asked the same question to Ikea and received the same answer with an added spin about "rights of the customers." My question about what rights those might be went unanswered, so I also no longer fund the Swedes and their socialist progressive agenda. Their choice resulted in my choice.

[Double Naught Spy]

elrowe, I am sorry you did not understand the context of my statement, but that is why I included the quote to which I was responding. Maybe you didn't read that far back, so let me bring you up to speed slowly.

Upon discovering his local BWW didn't allow guns, stumpers wrote to the company. He received a response but claimed it was lacking and specifically lacking in the area of failing to address what he beleived what should be the company's primary goal, keeping customers.

Many companies put employee or patron safety ahead of other goals such as the keeping of customers that stumper seems to think is most important. So many food service companies (like BWW) put into place extensive policies and procedures regarding food handling, preparation, and sale. In other words, stumper's belief that the company should be putting forth the primary goal of keeping customers isn't primary because the company has other goals before that which are more important. So stumper's implied argument that BWW should allow concealed carry in their store(s) so as to meet their primary goal of keeping customers is a bogus argument because keeping customers isn't going to be their primary goal.

Are you advocating that they post a sign banning e-coli too?

Did I saw this? No. Was I even advocating any business decision for BWW? Nope, just explaining.

What does keeping my CCW that nobody ever will see unless it's to defend someone do to improve safety?

BWW and many other companies have a much greater fear of people's supposed unseen firearms discharging on their properties than of the threat of robbery. They know they cannot control robbers, but they can control law abiding citizens. An injury caused by a robber is going to be pose a lesser problem of liability than of a patron or employee being allowed to carry and accidently/negligently having the gun discharge and cause injury or death.

Sadly, we are our own worst enemy in this reqard because we keep having gun folks whose guns end up unintentionally discharging in public and often causing injury or death to the carrier or people around the carrier. That risk may be very small, but the publicity is very large.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=643355&highlight=negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=643250&highlight=negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=610354&highlight=negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=577316&highlight=negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=574777&highlight=negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=625398&highlight=pocket+carry+negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=313148&highlight=pocket+carry+negligent+discharge
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218933&highlight=accidental+discharge+killed

And these are but a few examples noted just here on THR. Never mind all the confessional threads on AD/NDs which are quite numerous.

I will say this, until which time gun stores and gun shows all allow concealed carry and loaded carry, it seems pretty silly that we get upset with places like BWW. After all, if the people selling guns don't trust any of us to have a concealed gun nobody will ever seen and certainly not one that is loaded, then why should we expect the general public businesses to welcome us with open arms? I know, I know. Gun stores and gun shows do not allow people to carry or not to have loaded weapons because it is a ... wait for it ... safety issue. You see, they don't feel safer or feel like you are making their business safer with your guns. They don't trust you enough to believe that you won't fiddlefinger your gun while in their business.

So if the people selling guns to us don't trust us with loaded guns in their stores, why would you expect any other non-gun business to do so? If I was the owner or manager of one of those businesses, I would be asking myself, "What do the people in gun stores know that I should know that keeps them from letting their own customers being armed with loaded guns?"

[oneounceload]

I will say this, until which time gun stores and gun shows all allow concealed carry and loaded carry, it seems pretty silly that we get upset with places like BWW. After all, if the people selling guns don't trust any of us to have a concealed gun nobody will ever seen and certainly not one that is loaded, then why should we expect the general public businesses to welcome us with open arms? I know, I know. Gun stores and gun shows do not allow people to carry or not to have loaded weapons because it is a ... wait for it ... safety issue. You see, they don't feel safer or feel like you are making their business safer with your guns. They don't trust you enough to believe that you won't fiddlefinger your gun while in their business.

And with many restaurants serving alcohol, many see that as a potential safety issue - whether that is right or wrong, their perception IS reality

[brnmuenchow]

Just got back from the one I go to every Tuesday, and it had the: "Unlicensed Possession of a firearm" sign up.:)

[mongo4567]

If it isn't one of the legally required signs here in Texas (30.06) or 51%, I probably won't notice it. If it is one of the legal signs, I vote with my feet/dollars.

[elrowe]

Double Naught - sorry if I offended, I was tongue in cheek. The gist was intented to be that their food safety efforts only apply to their employees. They won't allow their customers to have firearms for contrived safety reasons, but don't make customers sanitize for food safety. Salmonella and e. coli are a lot more common than accidental shootings from holstered handguns.

I find it disturbing that gun stores and shows don't allow carry - is that a TX law? Nearly all of our local ones are fine with either CC or OC as long as it stays in the holster.

[hso]

Businesses are driven by profit. Profit is damaged by liability. Whether food safety or perceived customer safety the business is primarily profit driven. If they can be shown that it damages profits to post against legal carry as opposed to the mistaken perception of liability they can be motivated to change their minds in their AND our best interest unless you're dealing with a business that is philosophically motivated to accept the loss of our business. It is a question of the balance at the end of the year. Do they save money risking turning away our business or not. If we don't put our dollars on the line then we have no influence.

[rellascout]

Businesses are driven by profit. Profit is damaged by liability. Whether food safety or perceived customer safety the business is primarily profit driven. If they can be shown that it damages profits to post against legal carry as opposed to the mistaken perception of liability they can be motivated to change their minds in their AND our best interest unless you're dealing with a business that is philosophically motivated to accept the loss of our business. It is a question of the balance at the end of the year. Do they save money risking turning away our business or not. If we don't put our dollars on the line then we have no influence.


Personally I think that the pro-gun crowd here and on other boards greatly over estimates its effects on business bottom lines in cases like this. Yes there have been effective single day boycotts or single day support actions but I think people greatly over estimate our clout especially when it comes to the issue of carry on private property.

Only a small percentage of gun owners carry. Only a small percentage of those who carry carry all the time. Those who feel the need to carry all the time 24/7, are unwilling to leave a firearm at home or properly secured in a car. Of those people what % eat enough wings and drink enough beer to damage the bottom line of any single location over a long period of time? Lets face it BW3 sells hot wings cheap and spicy so you buy beer and alcohol which moves their bottom line a lot more than the wings do. So how many gun loving people are really going to stop going to BW3 and because they cannot eat wings and carry a gun. IMHO not enough.

The majority of gun owners in this country are not single issue people. They are not defined by this single issue. IMHO. They do not allow their support of the 2nd Amend to dictate or cloud every judgement that they make. Every economic decision I make is not made through the sites of a a gun.

I personally have no issue not carrying in a BW3 because when I go there I am going to get wings and drink some beer. When I drink beer regardless of the location the gun stays at home so them posting that sign really has no actual effect on me. I am not against people voting with their $$$. I am 100% in favor of that but I think sometimes we go overboard. People are allowed to exercise their rights like property rights as they see fit even if we do not agree with them. Are buffalo wings really that important? LOL

YMMV

[Jim NE]

People are allowed to exercise their rights like property rights as they see fit even if we do not agree with them

Though I don't agree with the restaurant's policy, I agree with rellascout's statement above.

People have every right to boycott BWW and write letters and vote with their dollars, and BWW has every right to ignore all of that. As a guy who owned a business for the better part of 20 years, I've come to respect the business owner as I would the home owner. Just as I wouldn't insist on carrying a gun into someone's house against their wishes, neither would I want to carry one into their business.

[SLAKLINE]

I didn't read this entire thread analyzing all the little points and counterpoints. I just want to offer up my opinion:
Just like drinking and driving has proven to be a deadly combination....alcohol and firearms can be just as....I'm not opposed to CC in public where alcohol is served but those who are CC must observe the personal responsibility of not consuming alcohol. If you plan on drinking then you must NOT CC in the interest of public safety and to maintain the best image of Pro2nd's everywhere. Designated CC's just like DD's is a legitimate compromise.

[hso]

rellascout,

You don't have to try to organize a national boycott to change the mind of a single business owner. Just talk to them logically about the sign, what it means, how pointless it is and how your business and those of your circle of friends will have to be taken somewhere else. I did just that with a local franchise owner when a pre-printed sign from a state group went up in his restaurant. I explained about the background checks, the cost of training and the permit and the fact that I and my family and friends of ours who went there with us, and thought the same way I did, would be taking our business down the street as long as he didn't want us as customers. He said that the young woman that came in with the sign said it would keep the "wrong" people out and that he didn't want to loose our business for something that didn't make his place safer. He took the sign down and we eat there still.

One at a time.

[DaraPe]

I see no problems with the rules they have set. It is silly to say the least to come to a public place with firearm. For that matter, it is silly to have carry it with you. It should be left at home under the lock.

[DaraPe]

Also, if you would like to speak about food safety risks, I suggest you visit this page: http://www.pallettruth.com/food-safety-risks/. After you read info on that page, you will realize that the food might be bad even before it reaches the restaurant's kitchen.

[Texan Scott]

^THIS^ Texas leaves NO ambiguity in the law. The Business either gets over half of its money from on-premises alcohol sales or it doesn't; if it does, but it isn't properly posted with the legally defined 51% signage, it's not the carrier's fault. A business can say 'no guns', but unless they comply with the legally required 30.06 signage as defined by law, it's unenforcable (except by asking the patron to leave, which they can't do if they don't know).
Leaving ZERO ambiguity leaves ZERO 'wiggle room' for anti-gun LE/DAs here and there to exercise 'discretion' in upholding a clearly defined legal right of the citizen.

Here's a handy printable card you can give to the offending business, originally posted (to my knowledge) by THR's own F-11 John:

http://www.countrysurvival.com/no-guns-equals-no-money/

[jrdolall]

Went to a BBW in Grand Rapids this week. There was no sign but I dont know the MI laws regarding handguns so it may not be necessary. I don't personally think their wings are good enough to bother with but that is my opinion. I never would have gone on my own.

[HeadHunter1-3]

At the two BWW's locations in Fredericksburg VA. One has a sign posted and the other dose not. However the manager of the one with the posted sign has no issues with people carrying including open carry.