1-4x scopes for military use


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JustinJ
April 30, 2012, 06:50 PM
Do any militaries issue 1-4x variable power scopes to convential or special forces? If no, why not? Are they considred to simply be not durable enough? Would the most modern be durable enough but militaries are have to catch up?

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allaroundhunter
April 30, 2012, 06:55 PM
Talking US military here, and what I know from asking the same question to an infantryman who has seen combat in Iraq during the Gulf War and Operation Iraqi Freedom:

I believe they are issued, just not very many of them are. Typically, infantry use a fixed power optic, whether that is a 1x aimpoint or eotech, or a 4x ACOG (and others).

Yes, modern ones are plenty durable, there just is not a high demand with the quality optics that are already fielded.

Also, a soldier still has to find the right eye relief when looking through a 1x scope unlike a red-dot/holographic sight; so for close-quarters, it is less than ideal.


Here (http://www.elcan.com/Our_Company/BulletinFiles/070705_IDR_USMilitary_Contract_Win.php) is a link to the Elcan optic that mshootnit mentioned. It is designed to be used with the M249 and M240, but it is twice as heavy as an ACOG which costs it some practicality points.

mshootnit
April 30, 2012, 06:56 PM
there is an elcan unit that switches power.

happygeek
April 30, 2012, 07:30 PM
I've had limited use with the 1x/4x Elcan (http://www.botachtactical.com/elcanspecterdr.html). It has a throw lever on the side to switch between 1x & 4x. It has a ACOG style reticle that doesn't need power and a red dot that you can switch on if you so desire.

The downside is you can't use your irons through it, it's kinda heavy, the eye relief is really short (as in I put my nose over the charging handle when I'm using it on 4x), and it's really expensive, something like $1800. Some like it, and of course the price doesn't matter when it's issued to you. I've never used an ACOG so I can't compare the two, but I like the Elcan.

They also make a 1.5x/6x model (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=elcan+specterdr+1.5-6x&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=12371888738401143027#), which is ungodly expensive. I've never even seen that one in person.

SabbathWolf
April 30, 2012, 07:35 PM
I've never seen a variable scope on anything other than precision rifles. And those were higher power too.
Even the ACOG is OK for farther away targets but SUCK at close quarters.
I was issued both ACOGs and Aimpoints, and always liked the Aimpoints better.
Never issued an Eotech.

-v-
April 30, 2012, 09:45 PM
I've seen a few Leupold CQ/T's appearing in photos from A-stan from photos as well.

C-grunt
May 1, 2012, 03:04 AM
Kyle Defoor has stated he used 1-4 powered scopes when he was a sniper. He also stated he didnt fiddle with the knobs on it and just knew his holdovers.

SabbathWolf
May 1, 2012, 03:12 AM
Kyle Defoor has stated he used 1-4 powered scopes when he was a sniper. He also stated he didnt fiddle with the knobs on it and just knew his holdovers.

What was his longest shot?
To be honest...I've never heard of him.
Who is he?

taliv
May 1, 2012, 12:52 PM
SEAL sniper and trainer, been on a few TV shows

allaroundhunter
May 1, 2012, 01:28 PM
When I answered I was discounting snipers. Typically in the past they have used fixed power scopes (allowed for mil-ranging to be effective without having to find the correct power), but now with using scopes that have the reticle in the FFP, variable power scopes are being issued.

That does not come from personal experience, that is what I have heard; so please, correct me if I am wrong.

C-grunt
May 1, 2012, 05:14 PM
What was his longest shot?
To be honest...I've never heard of him.
Who is he?
You can read a little about him on M4C.

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=215

SabbathWolf
May 1, 2012, 08:38 PM
SEAL sniper and trainer, been on a few TV shows


I see.

I hardly ever watch TV.

B!ngo
May 1, 2012, 09:27 PM
Talking US military here, and what I know from asking the same question to an infantryman who has seen combat in Iraq during the Gulf War and Operation Iraqi Freedom:

I believe they are issued, just not very many of them are. Typically, infantry use a fixed power optic, whether that is a 1x aimpoint or eotech, or a 4x ACOG (and others).

Yes, modern ones are plenty durable, there just is not a high demand with the quality optics that are already fielded.

Also, a soldier still has to find the right eye relief when looking through a 1x scope unlike a red-dot/holographic sight; so for close-quarters, it is less than ideal.


Here (http://www.elcan.com/Our_Company/BulletinFiles/070705_IDR_USMilitary_Contract_Win.php) is a link to the Elcan optic that mshootnit mentioned. It is designed to be used with the M249 and M240, but it is twice as heavy as an ACOG which costs it some practicality points.
Thanks for your reply. And your service.
I always wanted to ask an experienced shooter how they went about aiming at a range so close that 4x was problematic. Or is 4x always viable?
When I was looking for a 4x scope (for less than an ACOG), it was hard to find one that was fixed at 4x and ended up going with the variable. Not sure it's necessary though.
Thanks,
B

taliv
May 1, 2012, 09:44 PM
I hardly ever watch TV.

don't blame you. I don't even have cable/satellite. but i read the training announcements often and catch his name/bio every once in a while.


always wanted to ask an experienced shooter how they went about aiming at a range so close that 4x was problematic. Or is 4x always viable?
When I was looking for a 4x scope (for less than an ACOG), it was hard to find one that was fixed at 4x and ended up going with the variable. Not sure it's necessary though.

i shot 3gun type rifle matches with a 4x ACOG for a while. 4x is visible just fine even a few feet away. The problem is, when you look through it at a cardboard ipsc silhouette a few feet away, all you see is brown, so it's hard to tell where on the cardboard you are, and it takes me a second or two to focus and find the A zone sometimes.

JAV8000
May 1, 2012, 09:45 PM
The Elcan was, for the most part, designed to increase the accuracy of suppressive fire from an automatic weapon system. They weigh a ton, are monolithic, and have terrible eye relief. They belong on machine guns and little else. I noticed Canadian troops with them mounted on their M16A4s while deployed in southern Afghanistan.....yikes, no thank you.

happygeek
May 2, 2012, 01:01 AM
When you say the Elcan, are you talking about this one (http://www.botachtactical.com/elm13opsi.html) or the Elcan Specter DR (http://www.botachtactical.com/elcanspecterdr.html)?

-v-
May 2, 2012, 01:24 AM
I think JAV8000 means the M145 versus the SpecterDR. Heard the mounts with the elevation adjustment for them left much wanting.

Seems the DR is popular with the SOF folks.

Just for fun, a Acog weighs 9.9 oz 11.1 oz with a pigyback sight to give you both a 4x and 1x option, a SpecterDR 1x/4x weighs in at 20.4ish oz. So, Trijicon still wins, although you now have two sights to contend with.

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2012, 04:02 PM
Thanks for your reply. And your service.
I always wanted to ask an experienced shooter how they went about aiming at a range so close that 4x was problematic. Or is 4x always viable?
When I was looking for a 4x scope (for less than an ACOG), it was hard to find one that was fixed at 4x and ended up going with the variable. Not sure it's necessary though.
Thanks,
B

Sorry if I came across like I have served, but I have not, and out of respect for those that have I try to make sure that nothing I say can be taken in such a way. The soldier that I have talked with specifically about optics was issued an M4 with an ACOG. His role included clearing houses (as many soldiers in Iraq do), and for close-quarters such as that he was not entirely fond of the 4x ACOG.

I personally have used an ACOG on an AR-15 that is used to defend livestock and people who go out on our farm from feral dogs. Most of the shots that we make on the dogs are under 50 yards, and the ACOG was just too much for the job.

SabbathWolf
May 2, 2012, 04:16 PM
Sorry if I came across like I have served, but I have not, and out of respect for those that have I try to make sure that nothing I say can be taken in such a way. The soldier that I have talked with specifically about optics was issued an M4 with an ACOG. His role included clearing houses (as many soldiers in Iraq do), and for close-quarters such as that he was not entirely fond of the 4x ACOG.

I personally have used an ACOG on an AR-15 that is used to defend livestock and people who go out on our farm from feral dogs. Most of the shots that we make on the dogs are under 50 yards, and the ACOG was just too much for the job.

Exactly.
The ACOG is pretty sweet if your targets are around 100 meters away or "more."
But up close, it's extremely S-L-O-W and difficult to use.
The one I was issued had little iron sights on top of it for closer quarters aiming.
But...they only work in day light...so completely makes irrelevant having an illuminated optic to begin with.

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2012, 04:19 PM
The one I was issued had little iron sights on top of it for closer quarters aiming.

Yup, my friend said that he didn't care for them anymore in a CQB environment than he did the magnified optic. He said that if there was a firefight inside of a building, it was more of an instinctive point shooting.

oldguy870
May 2, 2012, 04:30 PM
I don't see the 1-4X scopes ever being issued to all soldiers.

The ACOG with an offset MRD is a far better solution.

1. Instant transition from 4x to 1x and back again.
2. The back up is built into the concept.
3. Nothing to fiddle with during combat.

I have hunted jackrabbits with a 1-4x. It sucked! Heres why...

Since a jackrabbit could takeoff anywhere at anytime as I was walking through the desert, it was best to leave the scope at 1x. Now, if I wanted to take a look at what I thought was a potential target a couple hundred yards away, I would dial up the scope. Then, after looking, I would need to dial the scope back down as I resumed my walk. During a several hour walk, you do this over and over and over again.

dial up, dial down, dial up, dial down, .......... It gets old real quick!

This is very similar to combat. A threat could show up anywhere. Therefore, the scope should be on 1x to be safe. Then, if you want to scan or engage threats, you are on the dial up/dial down roller coaster.

With the ACOG/offset MRD - you simply roll your rifle. Done. Instant and simple.

Hunterdad
May 2, 2012, 09:22 PM
A guy that shoots at my club who has done a couple of tours said he brings his Burris Tac30 1-4x with him to mount on his rifle.

happygeek
May 2, 2012, 11:32 PM
dial up, dial down, dial up, dial down, .......... It gets old real quick!

This is very similar to combat. A threat could show up anywhere. Therefore, the scope should be on 1x to be safe. Then, if you want to scan or engage threats, you are on the dial up/dial down roller coaster.


That's why the Elcan Specter DR has a throw lever on the side to switch between 1x & 4x (http://www.botachtactical.com/elcanspecterdr.html). Overall I liked it when I got to use it, and I think I was just as fast with it on 1x as I was with an Aimpoint. I'd love to own one, but the $1,800 price tag is over $1,600 out of my price range.

B!ngo
May 3, 2012, 01:29 AM
Thanks for your honest clarification. Other comments confirm what I've been thinking. I ended up going with the 1-4x leaving it on 4x always, and buying a set of Dueck Defense side sites. Don't like 'em, but that's probably my inexperience. And I always have plenty of light. I live a very peaceful life.
What I've done recently is purchase an MP5 clone (AT94) and just stuck a 1x SPARC on it. It might be the best thing for taking complexity out of life. :)

GunTech
May 3, 2012, 02:48 AM
The 1x/4x combo is nothing new. The Russians were doing it back in the 1960s with the SVD. The 4x PSO is mounted to you can still use the irons.

SabbathWolf
May 3, 2012, 03:16 AM
Thanks for your honest clarification. Other comments confirm what I've been thinking. I ended up going with the 1-4x leaving it on 4x always, and buying a set of Dueck Defense side sites. Don't like 'em, but that's probably my inexperience. And I always have plenty of light. I live a very peaceful life.
What I've done recently is purchase an MP5 clone (AT94) and just stuck a 1x SPARC on it. It might be the best thing for taking complexity out of life. :)


Not to alter the direction of the thread.....but....
You picked up an AT94?

I picked up a 9mm Beretta Storm instead and just fixed it up with additional parts and what not, but have always wondered about the 94s.
How do you like it?

SabbathWolf
May 3, 2012, 03:20 AM
Yup, my friend said that he didn't care for them anymore in a CQB environment than he did the magnified optic. He said that if there was a firefight inside of a building, it was more of an instinctive point shooting.

Sometimes it "is" depending on distance to target and time to react.
Especially if you have multiple tangos.
But that's a side note I suppose.

d2wing
May 3, 2012, 09:44 PM
For hunting, I use a 1-4, but if I were back in combat, I would prefer irons. It was a long time ago but some of us learned to point and shoot,"quick kill". It takes training and practice, but it gives the fastest reaction time. Because my eyes aren't so good anymore and hunting is not a gunfight I use a scope.

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