.38 super or 10mm for defense?


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jason41987
April 30, 2012, 08:14 PM
hey everyone.. im looking to get a 1911 for a self defense handgun.. probably 4" barrel, single-stack grip.. and well, i was wondering what would be the better choice?.. 10mm, or .38 super?...

i was looking at 10mm loads, and theyre VERY powerful, pack quite a punch.. however, .38 super ammo ive been finding doesnt seem so potent, obviously, less case capacity... but the max loads ive been finding for it are around 510fpe..

what i dont get about this, is there are some 9x19mm loads that equal about that, +P rounds of course, but the 9x19mm has a case capacity of 13 grains, the 38 super has a capacity of 18 grains with a thicker wall... so why not use one of these potent 9x19mm loads, scaled up to the size of the .38 super case which would give you a muzzle energy of 650-700FPE and still be within the limits of the case, and the pistol itself?...

thats very potent for a relatively small round.. what do you guys think? think a hot 38 super with its lighter recoil, higher ammunition capacity, and flatter shooting bullet beats out the 10 mil which does have a bit more energy, but also a lot more recoil and not as accurate?...

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jmr40
April 30, 2012, 08:30 PM
Personally I like the 10mm much better. It is much more versatile in my opinion. Anything I need to do with a 9mm bullet can be accomplished with standard 9mm rounds instead of 38 super.

fletcher
April 30, 2012, 08:31 PM
Both rounds (nearly all, for that matter) will be plenty accurate for self-defense, and both are capable of providing more than enough power. For a 1911, keep in mind that there will be more options in .38 super than 10mm. This will likely translate into a notably higher cost firearm for the latter.

To me, neither has any cons that are real deal-breakers - go for whatever you're leaning towards.

Kleanbore
April 30, 2012, 08:51 PM
Against vicious animals, where penetration in excess of that provided by most handguns is desirable, the 10MM would be the better choice.

A 12 gauge shotgun with slugs or a rifle would be far better.

If you are referring to self defense against human attackers, the ability to fire very fast--say, putting four or five shots per second on a fast moving target--is far more important than flash and boom. That indicates in favor of the 9MM or .45.

Handguns in .38-44 Heavy Duty and later, .38 Super and .357 Magnum, and still later, .40 S&W, were adopted by law enforcement organizations because of their ability to penetrate car bodies and plate glass. That ability is not needed in civilian self defense, and those cartridges actually put the shooter at a disadvantage.

It is a misconception that great penetration and the ability to blow up water jugs dramatically make for good self defense loads.

Scimmia
April 30, 2012, 08:57 PM
so why not use one of these potent 9x19mm loads, scaled up to the size of the .38 super case which would give you a muzzle energy of 650-700FPE and still be within the limits of the case, and the pistol itself?...

Because you start to blow out the case head. People were running into this with 38 Super while trying to make Major PF before the minimum was lowered. This lead to the creation of 9x23 Winchester, which is very similar in size to 38 Super but can run at much higher pressures.

jason41987
April 30, 2012, 08:59 PM
im actually leaning towards the 38 super.. less frontal area at similar energy levels would mean deeper penetration if neccessary, and better accuracy is good to... also, i can go for a more moderate 500FPE load in the 38 super without juicing it up to +P levels, makes the brass last longer too...

i was mostly looking for a versitile defense handgun, for carry, and for camping/backpacking/fishing as well

ive also considered 9x23 winchester, though it seems .38 supers more plentiful, and easier to find brass/ammo for

Radagast
April 30, 2012, 09:02 PM
AFAIK you will not find either caliber chambered in a 4 inch gun. You will have to have a custom gunsmith build one for you.
I would go with the 9x23 rather than .38 super, you can buy factory ammo that has the oomph you are looking for.
The first 10mm 1911s (Colt Delta Elite) suffered from cracking, I doubt a shorter barrel gun would have a longer life as it wil have less slide mass to absorb recoil and prevent frame battering.

jason41987
April 30, 2012, 09:21 PM
oh id build it myself from parts, i have no problem with that... if i can fire .38 super in a 9x23 barrel, that seems like it would be the best option then

jason41987
April 30, 2012, 09:37 PM
hmm.. could .38 super be fired from the 9x23mm barrel?.. if so, ill just go 9x23mm, but i cant seem to find any barrels for it... so... ream out a .38 super or 9mm barrel?

Radagast
April 30, 2012, 10:01 PM
There is a dealer here in Australia who regularly reams .38 super barrels with a 9x23 reamer. He told me that he could then run both cartridges.
I simply bought a spare 9mm barrel to go with my .38 super barrel. No other changes required other than adjusting the extractor.

Scimmia
April 30, 2012, 10:21 PM
Some people shoot one out of a barrel made for the other, but the chamber dimensions are different so I wouldn't recommend it. Reaming a 9x19 barrel with a 9x23 reamer will work perfectly, reaming a 38 Super barrel won't do the same as the 38 Super chamber is slightly larger at the mouth. I've for a 9x23 reamer I've used to convert 9mm barrels.

Remember, 9x23 is a tapered round similar to 9x19 where 38 Super is straight walled.

jason41987
April 30, 2012, 10:29 PM
wow.. its considerably cheaper to buy a 9x23 winchester reamer and a 9x19mm barrel than it is to buy a 9x23mm barrel

Teachu2
April 30, 2012, 11:28 PM
im looking to get a 1911 for a self defense handgun.. probably 4" barrel, single-stack grip.. and well, i was wondering what would be the better choice?.. 10mm, or .38 super?...


No. In a 4" 1911 self defense handgun, .45 acp is the way to go. 10mm is too much for the frame to sustain, and .38 super (while a fine target round in a 5" gun) might as well be a 9mm. The 1911 was designed for the .45acp, and functions best with it. Everything else is a deviation from design parameters, and require extra work to function well. When you are building up a range pistol, you can afford to deal with the issues caused by using other cartridges, but when 100% reliability is required - and stopping power is also required - the .45 acp is the cartridge of choice. It's also a pleasant gun to shoot, and ammo is widely available.

My father-in-law has recently started shooting pistols, and he bought a couple 9mms and a 45acp Commander. He'd always bring the 9mms to the range, never the Commander. One day I got him to try one of my .45s, and he was surprised at the mild recoil. The Commander was there the next trip, and now he likes it best.

SaxonPig
April 30, 2012, 11:31 PM
Well, all the talk about custom work and odd barrel lengths for a 1911 aside (might want to recall the KISS principle) either cartridge will stop a human being. The 10mm with full loads is more powerful but that means it kicks harder. I recall when the 10 came out many experienced shooters objected to the harsh recoil.

I like the Super and own a couple. Mainstream factory ammo has been down graded to the old 38 ACP level in recent years. For defense I want a full load (traditionally a 130 at 1250 FPS but factory ammo in my tests now runs 1080) so either specialty ammo makers or hand loads. I load 115 JHPs at 1425 in my guns.


http://www.fototime.com/A5FEE7C0F084410/standard.jpg

jason41987
April 30, 2012, 11:43 PM
115 at 1425fps sounds a lot like the 9x19mm buffalo bore load.. i guess you get the same performance without over-pressurizing the cartridge and the pistol... which is one reason the 38 super seemed attractive... getting that performance with less stress to the brass and the pistol itself

orionengnr
April 30, 2012, 11:53 PM
I have owned 1911s in .45acp, 9mm, 10mm, and .50GI. I have not yet owned a .38 Super...I may one day, but so far have not been able to justify it.

In my experience, a 9mm 1911 is...um, okay...if you want to save money on ammo. To buy a 1911 in 9mm just to save mobney on ammo? Nah.

The real advantage of any 9mm is the ability to either carry a really small light pistol, or to maximize magazine capacity. The 1911 excels at neither.

A 10mm 1911 is a fun handgun, but the recoil makes it somewhat less conducive to quick, accurate follow-up shots. At best, you gain one round over a .45acp. At worst, the recoil may shorten frame life dramatically (alternately, you can shoot 10mm "lite" load which approximate 40 S&W loads...why bother?).

Once again IMHO, the best use of a 1911 is in .45acp. There is at least one good reason that the 1911 has survived 100+ years. It is a very effective combination of platform and cartridge.

AFAIK you will not find either caliber chambered in a 4 inch gun. DW CBOB 10mm. :)

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 12:04 AM
cmon... 45acp just looks bigger, but the energy behind it is on par with 9x19mm and .40S&W due to being only a 21,000PSI round vs 35,000... if 45acp could operate at 35,000PSI the energy behind it would be absolutely enormous.. exceeding 10mm easily

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 12:15 AM
besides, i was looking for somethnig that would be a great outdoor/survival pistol too, accurate enough for small game within 50 yards.. but powerful enough for a deer at 25 if desperate enough, but with more rounds to carry in case of a bear, while still being compact enough for CCW... so thats why i came up with the idea of a 4" 1911 in .38 super

MachIVshooter
May 1, 2012, 12:45 AM
less frontal area at similar energy levels would mean deeper penetration if neccessary,

All else being equal, yes. But you have to remember sectional density and momentum, too. The 10mm is well known for it's astonishing penetration. In point of fact, on several mediums, it penetrated deeper than my .50 AE making twice the energy.

powerful enough for a deer at 25 if desperate enough,

The 10mm is definitely the better choice for critter defense and hunting applications.

There's also the 9x25 Dillon, if you want a really wicked 9mm round. Second only to the 9mm Win Mag, and not by much.

Edarnold
May 1, 2012, 02:10 AM
If you are thinking about hunting deer-sized game with your new pistol, you better check your local game laws. !0mm Auto and (maybe) .45 ACP are probably the only legal auto-pistol calibers based on energy in many states, .38 Super almost certainly not.

2zulu1
May 1, 2012, 03:59 AM
Both calibers have their strong points and limitations and I carry both depending on the environment I'm in. Both calibers reach their potential through handloading, the Super is limited by 9mm designs such as the 124gr/GD/XTP that become unreliable in the high 1300s to low 1400s. This can be over come by loading the 357 SIG 125gr Gold Dot or the 357mag 125gr XTP at Sig and magnum velocities.

When there are large feral boar tracks on the property I'll switch my every day Super carry to either a 357mag Keith bullet or 10mm 200gr WFNs.

VihtaVuori N105 burns great in the Super and it takes the 125gr XTP to high 1400s with pressures under 33,500psi according to VihtaVuori data. For what ever reasons, the Super has been used more times against vermin than all other calibers combined and has given hammer of Thor performance every time. The longest shot taken was this past winter when a coyote changed direction and advanced upon myself and German Shepherd. Coyotes are notoriously unpredictable with dogs and I took the shot at 95 yards from a Colt 1911 Government.

Mountain lions frequented often, three separate cats with the largest having 6" wide footprints and this is the main reason I prefer the Super over the 10mm; fast recovery times for follow up times.

Take a 357mag bullet at factory 357mag velocities combined with the recoil of a G17 and one gets the opportunity to place multiple shots on fast moving vermin w/o recoil/muzzle flip obscuring the target.

meanmrmustard
May 1, 2012, 06:05 AM
If you are thinking about hunting deer-sized game with your new pistol, you better check your local game laws. !0mm Auto and (maybe) .45 ACP are probably the only legal auto-pistol calibers based on energy in many states, .38 Super almost certainly not.
Here in the Show Me State, any center fire firearm with a max cap no greater than 10+1 (rifle OR handgun) is eligible for use in the firearms deer season.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 08:32 AM
it would only be for survival hunting.. i have prefer a rifle for everything else...

seems the 10mm does have more support from ammunition manufacturers than the others.. the 38 super and 9x23 seem like they would be specifically hand loaded cartridges

ku4hx
May 1, 2012, 09:07 AM
As long as you're going to be betting, bet you life on the most powerful pistol you can reliably and consistently shoot accurately. Of course that assumes all the guns you're considering are mechanically reliable.

If that's a 38 Special, then so be it. If it's a full house 10mm or 357 Magnum or 357 Sig then choose one of them.

Noise alone never stopped anybody; a hit with .22LR (maybe several hits) is far better than a loud bang in the living room from a miss with a 44 Magnum.

JERRY
May 1, 2012, 09:25 AM
while the 38 super is an interesting round and quite capable for defense against human attackers, id go with the 10mm because you can get low power loads from just better than .40cal up to full power 10mm and anything in between. plus i can find in my area 10mm on the shelf more readily than 38 super.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 09:43 AM
maybe ill just be really different, and go with 7.62x25mm, same energy as these other cartridges, with higher velocity, flatter shooting... basically a .38 super necked down to 7.62mm.... more energy than the 5.7x28mm as well, with a shorter barrel... put a really short pointed 30 caliber bullet on that and you have the makings of a PDW cartridge

MachIVshooter
May 1, 2012, 11:18 AM
maybe ill just be really different, and go with 7.62x25mm, same energy as these other cartridges, with higher velocity, flatter shooting... basically a .38 super necked down to 7.62mm.... more energy than the 5.7x28mm as well, with a shorter barrel... put a really short pointed 30 caliber bullet on that and you have the makings of a PDW cartridge

The problem with the 7.62x25 for defense isn't the round, it's the guns.

And it comes up well short of 10mm in the energy department; Even in a 4" gun, it can be well over 700 ft/lbs.

Scimmia
May 1, 2012, 11:24 AM
Nothing at all wrong with 7,62x25, but you're back to handloading your rounds. From the choices you mention, 10mm is really the only option if you want to use mostly factory ammo.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 12:07 PM
im fine with handloading.. i actually find it quite enjoyable

Robert101
May 1, 2012, 12:26 PM
I would go with the 10MM. I don't own a 9MM becasue I started handgun defense with the .380 and then went directly to the 45 Automatic. When the 10MM came out I had to have that power in a 1911 gun. So, I never got into the 9MMs for self defense (I know the .380 is a 9MM short). So now my defense guns are in 40, 45 and 10MM. I reload so ammo is not an issue for practice. I like the larger diameter bullets and feel they have more to offer.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 12:27 PM
hmm... this 7.62x25mm cartridge i found (factory prvi partizan load) has a muzzle energy of 560ft/lbs... that beats out 9mm, 40S&W and 45acp about equals the .38 super, but is still beaten by 9x23 winchester and 10mm... but would offer better accuracy and penetration... might be a nice survival load and i bet would be pretty effective on small game, while offering the penetration for larger animals in an emergency...

ill certainly put this one on the list to consider, and unlike the 9x23 winchester, ive actually found a few 7.62x25mm barrels for the 1911 if i didnt want to go with a surplus tokarev or CZ-52, though, the CZ-52 im guessing is fairly accurate in comparizon, due to a fixed barrel..

as long as theres one suitable factory load for CCW purposes, im comfortable reloading for everything else...

NG VI
May 1, 2012, 12:54 PM
Why would it be any more accurate? What bullet design is it tipped with? If it's not a known quantity bullet like the Gold Dot, HST, Ranger-T, or Golden Saber, how does it do on ballistics tests?

Certaindeaf
May 1, 2012, 01:06 PM
I'm certainly not recommending anyone do this but why not just get a Hi-Point in one of the three calibers and load the case up to the brim with bullseye and top with your flavor of war hammer? They did this with a 9 on utube (well, whatever constitutes multiple "blue pills") and then pounding a bolt down the barrel while keeping the slide from operating via vices/straps and or anvils.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 01:41 PM
not neccessarily more accurate, but certainly flatter shooting due to a much higher velocity

ghitch75
May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM
i carry my 1968 Super LWC.....you can run the Super up to 357mag speed in 9+1.....i'm runnin' Montana Gold 125gr JHP'S at a little under 1400fps with a 20# RCS.....muzzle flash is kind of bright in low light and sure turns some heads at the range:what:

http://i41.tinypic.com/9qe0bn.jpg

460Kodiak
May 1, 2012, 02:07 PM
You know Coonan Arms makes a 5" 1911 chambered in .357 magnum. Or you could look into a Sig with a 4" bbl in .357 sig.

I don't know, it seems like there are simpler solutions. Of course maybe that's what you enjoy. Personally, I carry a revolver for survival.

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 02:14 PM
hmm.. one thing that makes me interested in 10mm... which actually goes back historically to the early 1900s... when john browning and colt were designing the original 1911 prototype, they at first intended it to fire a .41 caliber cartridge they were working on, which fired a .400" projectile but the military wanted .45acp due to their experience with .45lc... something makes me think this original .41 caliber cartridge would have been closer to the performance of a modern .40S&W though..

does anyone have anymore data on this prototype cartridge that never came to be?

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 02:22 PM
im going to start another thread.. just to probe the history and try to find information of this mystery cartridge

jason41987
May 1, 2012, 07:42 PM
for reasons ive recently discovered.. i think 10mm will by my ultimate choice.. but before i drop the cash on the parts for a custom piece.. i have to ask something else...

.38 ACP, and .38 super have roughly the same dimensions, however, .38 ACP from looking at a manual actually has a thicker case wall to it.... is there any reason its less powerful than .38 super at the same length, or are they just made different so one dont mistaken the much hotter loads in the super and load it into an older, possibly weaker .38ACP firearm?

meanmrmustard
May 1, 2012, 07:53 PM
Neither. 9x19 +p, 40 S&W, .45 acp

2zulu1
May 2, 2012, 02:37 AM
For a comparison, 10mm #26 and 38 Super #36, 125gr XTP @1491fps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606797&page=2

Both calibers perform well, but for personal defense, the 10mm JHPs need to be backed off a bit.

Cocked & Locked
May 2, 2012, 09:14 AM
I always feel "cooler" when I carry one of my .38 Supers than when I carry my one and only 10mm. :rolleyes:

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/9381895/373123963.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/16805181/259406841.jpg

loadedround
May 2, 2012, 09:31 AM
After reading all the previous posts I have to jump in with my opinion. Having owned and shot various 9MM's and the Colt Delta Elite in 10 MM, I'm of the conclusion the way to go is the 10MM, if you can handle it. One good thing about this big 10 is that it's a handloader's dream. You may load it down for practice or plinking loads or load it to factory specs for carry or defense. One disadvantage of the 10MM however is lack of many different factory loads or on dealer's shelves...not a problem with 9MM. For the record I own 2 10MM's...both Colt Delta Elites. :)

SharpsDressedMan
May 2, 2012, 10:54 AM
I think this will work in most guns where the mags are compatible, but it is possible to put a .38 Super barrel and mag in a 10mm 1911 style gun and have it work as it should. I have done this to several Delta and custom 10mm (Caspian frame), and they shoot just like they were made as .38 Supers. If Glock ever makes a mag that would work in the G20 or 29 with .38 Super, a barrel replacement might work in those guns, too.

MachIVshooter
May 2, 2012, 11:32 AM
I think this will work in most guns where the mags are compatible, but it is possible to put a .38 Super barrel and mag in a 10mm 1911 style gun and have it work as it should.

Don't foget the barrel bushing.

.38 Super being semi-rimmed, it is very close to the 10mm rim diameter (about 0.020" difference, IIRC), so extraction shouldn't be an issue.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 12:14 PM
yeah.. i think ill end up going 10mm... it does seem to offer a lot of flexibility... could load it down like a .40S&W i guess.... but i have quite large hands, and recoil doesnt bother me as much.. so i guess the important thing for 10mm would just be finding a load with superior expansion to reduce the likeliness of overpenetration if carried as a CCW handgun

the pistol this will be fired from will no doubt be a single-stack, 4" 1911 ill build myself from parts.. fixed sights of course... actually, if this was a CCW only pistol, i wouldnt put any sights on it as im a strong believer for CCW, you may, or may not have time to aim, so i train more for instinctive shooting for close range... but since i want to use it for outdoors defense as well, and possibly a survival pistol it helps to have atleast fixed sights

SharpsDressedMan
May 2, 2012, 12:37 PM
I've noticed that if 1911 barrels are "standard OD diameter", they seem to work in similarly "standard" ID barrel bushings, i.e., you may be able to use the 10mm bushing with the conversion .38 Super barrel.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 12:46 PM
im rather utilitarian when it comes to things like this.. so the final product would look little more than a military 1911

dprice3844444
May 2, 2012, 12:50 PM
bigger bullet,bigger hole,faster leakage.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 01:36 PM
hmm, wouldnt be so sure on bigger hole, ive seen 9mms expand to close to .75" in ballistics testing.. of course, ive seen .40S&W expand to about the same diameter.. no idea how 10mm velocities would effect this

MachIVshooter
May 2, 2012, 01:46 PM
Full power loads from your commander-sized gun will be on the order of a 180 gr. bullet going 1,300-1,350 FPS.

My defense load is a 180 gr. Golden Saber that exits my 3.5" Witness Compact at 1,340 FPS and my 5" S&W 1006 @ 1,405 FPS. It hits 1,430 FPS in my 5-1/4" poly rifled Witness limited and 1,380 FPS in my G20. Never chronoed it out of my Kimber Stainless Target II.

I haven't yet fired it into ballistic gelatin, but in pottery clay, it penetrates 17" and expands to .9". I expect similar expansion but an additional few inches penetration in gel.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2012, 01:47 PM
bigger bullet,bigger hole,faster leakage.
.357 is said to be the top one shot stopper. The 9 isn't really that far behind.

BullfrogKen
May 2, 2012, 02:01 PM
I'm not a fan of chasing after the "best ballistics".


I have a Colt Lightweight Commander (4 1/4" barrel) that's running well over 25,000 now. Some 9x23, lots of 38 Super and 9mm. I had it chambered in 9x23 - a 9mm barrel with a 9x23 reamer. And I've got a spare 9mm barrel I use for high round count training classes and lost brass matches.

It'll work with 9x23 or 38 Super (SuperComp brass these days) interchangeably. The components cost less than a 10mm to shoot. It handles much better than a 10mm - the recoil is much more manageable. I usually run it as a 38 Super, 125 gr XTPs anywhere between 1150 fps to 1315 fps. And it'll take one more round.


I'd advise using the Commander-length standard barrel - 4 1/4 inches, and not a flat 4 inches. You'll find much more parts support.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 02:05 PM
hmm.. 17 inches sounds like a lot of penetration.. .9 inches is quite large.. seems the added energy adds to more expansion, but the penetration concerns me, if its still going 17 inches with that much expansion it seems it would be quite likely to over-penetrate when youre doing your best to prevent it from doing so

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 02:08 PM
also.. y'all never answered my question about the .38ACP vs 38 super.. same exterior dimensions, the .38ACP brass ive seen seems to have a thicker wall, is there a reason this wasnt just loaded to 36,000PSI instead of a new headstamp, or is it for safety reasons to have two different rounds, though with the same dimensions?

Scimmia
May 2, 2012, 02:14 PM
The wall of the case doesn't do much besides seal to the chamber wall. The web and head matter a lot more for containing pressure. I have no idea if the 38 ACP could take it or not, just offering this as general info.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 02:17 PM
yeah.. i dont have any empty brass to measure that with.. would be interesting to know the numbers, though the .38 super does have a distinctively more modern look to it, with an angle portion of the case in front of the rim

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2012, 02:19 PM
If you buy the "super" from the store, chances are, it's loaded to super specs. This is the convention. It's not marked in stone but it's marked in brass. Don't shoot that out of a .38acp.

BullfrogKen
May 2, 2012, 02:33 PM
Jason,

Just leave the 38 ACP alone. There's a reason why Colt didn't try to do what you're thinking back in the 1920's and 30's. The web of the brass won't support higher pressures. In fact, when I load a hot 38 Super, I use small rifle primers. It's not the sides of the case you need to worry about. The primer and base will give out long before the sides will, and give the shooter a case of "Super Face".


If you're going to play with the 38 Super, use actual 38 Super brass.

ghitch75
May 2, 2012, 03:31 PM
star line seems to have a little thinker base than any other brand of brass so i use them for my hot rods...

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 03:58 PM
now why would i ever consider using .38ACP when .38 super is available... and why would i consider a 38 super barrel when a 9x23 winchester barrel allows me to fire .38 super and 9x23 winchester?, i was simply asking the differences between the two... 38ACP isnt common so much, i cant remember the last time i seen a handgun chambered for it.. they could have improved it with a thicker base (which is obviously what the 38 super is).... so my question was why give it a new name?.. my guess is so no one accidently fires something too hot in something too old

NG VI
May 2, 2012, 04:02 PM
I still don't understand why the .38 Super is more accurate than the 10mm or why the 7.62x25mm is more accurate still. None of them have any extreme velocity or aerodynamic efficiency advantages ove the others. None of them are so mass produced that you can expect to see shoddy barrel manufacturers much.

BullfrogKen
May 2, 2012, 04:23 PM
Not every 9x23 will safely handle the 38 Super. The dimensions are not the same.

The 9x23 is tapered, meaning its larger at the base and smaller at the mouth. The 38 Super is completely straight. So when you put a 38 Super into a 9x23 chamber and fire it, the base expands more than it needs to.

It'll reduce the life of the 38 Super brass.


Jim Garthwaite worked over mine for me and built it up knowing I'd shoot more 38 Super than 9x23. He uses a reamer that's forgiving of shooting 38 Super in a 9x23. So I trust doing it in mine. I wouldn't trust it in any old 9x23 chamber. Or if I did, I wouldn't load that brass more than a few times.

FMF Doc
May 2, 2012, 06:43 PM
No personal experiance here, but the .38super tends to run much better on the 1911 platform than the 10mm from what my buddy, a 1911 gu-ru tells me.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 06:58 PM
really? tapered means it gets narrower?.. i never thought that, i thought it was held together with tape

so FMF doc, of 38 super runs so much smoother, why do you seem to see so many more 10mm 1911s, and 10mms in general?.. just a slightly more popular cartridge?

anyway, the thing that concerns me about .38 super is the rim on it is fairly large for its size... does this ever cause feeding problems with one rim hooking another, or does it ever cause the stack of rounds in the magazine to try to curl like an an AK mag?... its a fairly large rim for an autoloading firearm

BullfrogKen
May 2, 2012, 07:30 PM
really? tapered means it gets narrower?.. i never thought that, i thought it was held together with tape

OK smart Alec . . . go figure it out on your own.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 07:40 PM
i did some reading on .38 super 1911s, and the information i found makes me even less likely to go this route... it seems a great number of people have experienced feeding problems on a full magazine because the angle of the cartridge being fed into the chamber is a little of...

could this be because the slightly larger rims of the 38 super rounds are pressing against eachother, making the rounds want to take on a banana shape in the magazine?.. if not, what does cause this problem with the 38 supers, and either way... how do people fix it?

i heard some people trim down and resize .223 brass for .38 super for more reliable feeding and only need an extractor adjustment for it to work... is this true?.. and if so, can standard .38 super rounds still be fed?

MachIVshooter
May 2, 2012, 07:41 PM
I still don't understand why the .38 Super is more accurate than the 10mm or why the 7.62x25mm is more accurate still.

No cartridge is inherently accurate or inaccurate. The reason .38 Super is popular in competition is because it makes major PF while being more controllable in rapid fire than .40, 10mm or .45. 9x19 won't go major unless loaded to rifle pressures.

The 9x21 IPSC is the "international .38 Super"

45_auto
May 2, 2012, 08:25 PM
why do you seem to see so many more 10mm 1911s

LMAO!!!!

What gun and cartridge rules the IPSC & USPSA?

At least try to give the impression that you have some idea what you're talking about. When you get a driver's license, head out to a few ranges while they're hosting some pistol matches.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 08:36 PM
yeah.. show me the number of products chambered in .38 super that are not IPSC or USPSA.. i really dont care about the race guns people have built and fine tuned for competition, that does NOTHING for me... i see no point in dropping thousands on a race gun with 6 inch barrel, compensator, etc.. im looking for something for defense only... i honestly dont care how many professional competition guns are made in .38 super, and its sometihng im never going to care about... i do see a lot more 10mms sold as regular consumer products than i see .38 super

in fact.. we might as well take .38 super out of my list of choices, it seems like it has more problems than a mild performance increase (if that) over +P 9mm... so as of now its 9x23mm winchester or 10mm

hso
May 2, 2012, 08:37 PM
If you can get high velocities out of more massive bullets then you pick the caliber that provides the most energy and momentum to the target. That would be 10-mm if your choice is between .38 Super and 10-mm.

rcmodel
May 2, 2012, 08:46 PM
It was generally conceded years ago that the .45 Colt in a SAA, or .45 ACP in a 1911 is about the upper level of controllability in a gun fighters gun.

More blast and recoil (10mm) or smaller holes (.38 Super) have been proved to be less then desirable for fast follow-up shots and rapid blood loss that end fights time after time.

rc

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 08:48 PM
yeah.. seems if you scale up those 500fpe 9x19mm loads for 9x23mm youd have 600-700ft/lbs energy, but then again if you used the same powders in the 10mm case you would have even more.... i guess thats why i sometimes hear people refer to the 10 mil as an auto magnum

JTQ
May 2, 2012, 08:52 PM
After reading through this thread, I think these two guys have expressed my thoughts.
BullfrogKen wrote,
OK smart Alec . . . go figure it out on your own.

45_auto wrote,
At least try to give the impression that you have some idea what you're talking about. When you get a driver's license, head out to a few ranges while they're hosting some pistol matches.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 08:54 PM
jtq.. and who in the hell do you think you are to come into a topic and simply post an insult?

JTQ
May 2, 2012, 08:56 PM
Because I was following the thread and going to give you some help, but as pointed out by BullfrogKen and 45_auto, you are either unable or unwilling to accept the help offered by members.

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
im unwilling to accept patronizing and condescending statements... suggesting i dont understand the definition of "tapered" is quite an insult...

and assuming i would even consider custom race guns as an option when i say 10mm seems to be more common and with less problems to .38 super, and then toss out an insult shortly after is pretty rude as well

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 10:56 PM
really.. does anyone on this forum do more than toss insults? seem to be a lot of idiots doing just that on a discussion of 38 super vs 10mm for defensive purposes... because i asked the physical difference between .38 super and 38acp???

jason41987
May 2, 2012, 11:02 PM
forget it.. if people are here to start crap, by all means delete the thread and ill find a source of more civilized individuals to continue the discussion with

BullfrogKen
May 3, 2012, 07:15 AM
im unwilling to accept patronizing and condescending statements... suggesting i dont understand the definition of "tapered" is quite an insult...

No, you asked -

why would i consider a 38 super barrel when a 9x23 winchester barrel allows me to fire .38 super and 9x23 winchester?

And I pointed out the problems you can have when you fire a cartridge that doesn't match the dimensions of the chamber. Scimmia also pointed that out back in post #11. You may understand the meaning of the word tapered. But figuring the rounds are "close enough" that you can shoot both through a 9x23 chamber interchangeably and never have a problem illustrates you really didn't "get it" the first time.


Many people do it and get away with it. Most of them are not reloaders. Fire hot 38 Supers through a standard 9x23 chamber enough times and the brass will fail after only a few reloads.


Fact is the forum has been pretty patient with your questions, many of which could have been answered through some research on your own. Especially from someone who claims the skill and knowledge it takes to build a gun. Find a source of more civilized individuals for a discussion than The High Road? Good luck sport.

jason41987
May 3, 2012, 10:58 AM
you have me the definition of tapered... i work in the field of engineering, i know more about engineering, and terms related to engineering, and those you hear often in engineering more so far than you ever will in your life.. so before you think you have the right to criticize someone else because you failed to read the post through, just dont post anything at all... theres no need to be rude.. and then how dare you tell me i made an infraction...

i dont know how people feel, but i would consider this forum to be somewhat of a place of business, and expect those moderators here to conduct themselves with a level of professionalism, instead of throwing insults, only to give an infraction when someone stands up for themself... so by all means, keep your mouth shut if youre just going to start drama

Certaindeaf
May 3, 2012, 11:15 AM
^
What railroad company do you work for? Trains are cool.

BullfrogKen
May 3, 2012, 11:15 AM
OK. You're right and I'm wrong.


Go shoot 38 Supers in a 9x23 barrel to your heart's content. And may you come across a surgeon who can match your prowess in the field of engineering.

Sam1911
May 3, 2012, 11:25 AM
Looks like those looking for info have all the help we're able to give.

Best o' luck out there!

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