Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge?


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el Godfather
May 1, 2012, 06:24 PM
Dear THR,
Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge? If you believe accidental and negligent discharge are two different issues kindly discuss.

Thanks

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Geordie
May 1, 2012, 06:28 PM
The "unlaoded" one.

56hawk
May 1, 2012, 06:32 PM
Nambu Type 94.

dprice3844444
May 1, 2012, 06:35 PM
1911.usually it's poor holster choice and worn thumb safeties.single action cocked and locked is great,but your weapon has to be in good condition and you have to be extremely familiar with your weapon.

glock also in poor/worn holsters can go off just while inserting into holster if the safety is pulled.

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

skeeziks
May 1, 2012, 06:36 PM
An accident is an unexpected or unintended happening.
Negligence is a lack of proper care or attention.
Negligence often leads to accidents.

David E
May 1, 2012, 07:12 PM
Nambu Type 94.

Heard this one can go off simply by squeezing the frame. :eek:

56hawk
May 1, 2012, 07:17 PM
Heard this one can go off simply by squeezing the frame. :eek:

It can. I've got one and have dry fired it that way.

FruitCake
May 1, 2012, 07:19 PM
Any make or model

Smith357
May 1, 2012, 07:23 PM
It's not the gun, it's the nut behind the trigger.

TonyAngel
May 1, 2012, 07:35 PM
Barring design and manufacturing flaws and assuming a firearm in good working order, I don't think that any one handgun is more prone to an accidental/negligent discharge than any other. Accidental and negligent discharges are caused by improper handling due to insufficient training, insufficient practice, a failure to exercise common sense or a combination thereof.

In short, you need to know your handgun and be proficient in its use. To get one design of handgun over another BECAUSE you think it's "safer" invites disaster. If you develop the mind set that a handgun is less prone to accidents because it has some sort of device on it, you will come to rely on that device to your detriment.

If you are asking this question because you are considering getting a handgun for self protection, my advise would be to get one that fits your hand, that you feel comfortable with and then get to know it intimately.

Now, with all of that having been said, I believe that handguns with either a double action only or double action for the first shot trigger system (and are carried in proper holsters) are less likely to go off unintended because it takes a long, deliberate pull to fire the first shot.

Skribs
May 1, 2012, 07:49 PM
If it doesn't have a safety, then there's nothing preventing an idiot who ignored the four rules from having a ND (well, technically only two of the rules can cause a ND, but you get the point).

If it has a safety, then there's only an idiot forgetting that he didn't flip the safety on that prevents an idiot from...see above.

After looking at all that, I figured the simplest option would be the best. If it doesn't have a manual safety, I will never wonder whether or not its on.

Single Action Six
May 1, 2012, 07:53 PM
GLOCK!! ;)

Single Action Six

M1key
May 1, 2012, 07:54 PM
The one with the do-it-yourself trigger job.

M

rosewood151
May 1, 2012, 08:03 PM
Definitely the Nambu Type 94. The sear is exposed. When the gun is cocked, the sear sticks out ever so slightly , a little pressure and bang. The even put it on the left side, so it would bounce against your body.

TimboKhan
May 1, 2012, 08:14 PM
Attempting to answer this question honestly, I don't believe any modern handgun in good working order is particularly prone to an unintended discharge. Frankly, our society is litigious enough that it precludes keeping a patently unsafe handgun on the market. For example, Ruger had a massive and immediate recall when the SR9 was found to have a potentially fatal flaw in it's design.

As far as a difference between accidental and negligent, I suppose it is a point of view. To me, they aren't exactly one and the same, but they are pretty similar. An unintended discharge would be one where the gun goes off without expressly pulling the trigger, and I suspect that is a pretty rare occurence indeed in mechanically sound guns. Accidental and negligent just imply either an honest mistake or a decidedly careless one on the part of the shooter. In both cases, it was probably (meaning almost certainly) an avoidable mistake.

The Lone Haranguer
May 1, 2012, 08:27 PM
Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge?
A better way to phrase the question would be, "Which handgun is less forgiving of poor safety practices by the user?"

45_auto
May 1, 2012, 08:44 PM
Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge?

The one that you are using.

Ky Larry
May 1, 2012, 09:06 PM
Any gun my idiot bro-in-law is holding.He's living proof that not everyone should be allowed to own firearms. Boy has the mental capacity of a coal bucket.

ApacheCoTodd
May 1, 2012, 09:19 PM
No question in my mind - most any Ortgies and especially worn or poorly repaired ones.

9mmepiphany
May 1, 2012, 09:55 PM
This question might have been meant tongue in cheek or maybe to make a point, but a serious answer would be a Glock, because....

1. There are more on the market in the hands of folks with the least interest in proper handling.
2. It requires that the trigger be pulled before it can be field stripped. Yes I know the chamber should be checked clear before you pull the trigger...but were talking about a ND here. Most pistols require that the slide be retracted prior to this step

snakeman
May 1, 2012, 09:57 PM
Whichever one you have in your hand at the time so be careful!

rcmodel
May 1, 2012, 10:02 PM
Of all modern guns?

Glock.

Almost every ND you read about involving cops or football players involve Glocks.

rc

GLOOB
May 2, 2012, 05:51 AM
To all that say Glock, do a search for the ND poll on this forum. There were more "oops, the hammer slipped while I was decocking" ND's than all the ND's that were even possible to attribute to a lack of a manual safety! Since the Glock doesn't have an external hammer, it's safe to say Glock ain't it. And in the comments, 1911's and revolvers were implicated many times more often than Glocks. 1911's seem to be the #1 creators of unwanted holes in bedroom walls.

What makes the Glock so safe is a simple manual of arms, a chunky trigger guard, and a heavy trigger pull (esp compared to the weight of the gun). It's hard enough to pull a Glock trigger on purpose. You can put your finger in the triggerguard and spin and shake a stock Glock (with empty chamber) all around, and the trigger will not break.

Now take a 3 lb gun with a 3-5 lb hair trigger, a rail thin trigger guard, an external hammer for the Curious George to mess with, and tack on a manual safety for peace of mind. Now that's an ND waiting to happen.

Sure, a Glock is more prone to freak holster strap or other holster malfunctions due to lack of safety. But I'll bet those type of malfunctions account for less than 0.1% of all ND's. It's complete and utter nonsense to look at the "what if" holster strap/shirt tail scenarios and to blame them for the world's ND problems. It doesn't add up.

The field stripping argument, I don't have as good an answer for. But I've read of only 1 single claim of ND while field stripping. And it was probably just CYA, because it sounded better than "well, I was playing with my gun..."

TanklessPro
May 2, 2012, 08:25 AM
IMHO, ND and AD are the same thing. In modern handguns the problem is not the gun. The problem is when you have a disconnect between brain, booger hooker, and bang switch.
If firearms shot themselves,MSNBC would do an hour special on the evil firearm......sorry forgot they already did that.

fatcat4620
May 2, 2012, 09:44 AM
Well you have the 1911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3kJ6SU3ycs

Then you have the glock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

Take your pic

qwert65
May 2, 2012, 10:05 AM
I really don't understand how one can accidentally fire a 1911, personally I think they are the safest semi-auto out there(though not the simplest)
Think about it if the hammer is down, it won't go off
If it is cocked, the safety has to be off, you have to be holding the gun correctly(grip safety), and you still need to pull the trigger.

ny32182
May 2, 2012, 10:17 AM
The two most recent Unintended-D's I have witnessed (unfortunately both within the last week and a half or so):

1) Sig, hammer back, while holstering. Inexperienced shooter... Grazed his shoe but missed his foot. Yes, it was that close to being a lot more painful for him.

2) 2011, while doing a speed reload... very experienced master class competitive shooter.

The common thread was a super light trigger, pressed obviously at a time when it should not have been.

I don't recall ever seeing one happen with a Glock (might have at some point and just don't remember), and I am present for hundreds of thousands of rounds a year put through Glocks by shooters of all experience levels.

ForumSurfer
May 2, 2012, 11:06 AM
The one with the do-it-yourself trigger job.

Nonsense. I have several of those in rifles, shotguns and pistols.

I don't think any of them are more prone to have an accident. Where there is a careless soul, there is a way. :)

Someone else said "the unloaded one." I'd be willing t bet that rule is the most often violated rule that leads to an ND.

I also don't believe in accidents (probably a byproduct of my troubleshooting relatively complex problems for a living). An accidental discharge is a mechanical failure in my eyes, one in which the trigger was never pulled. There will always be something contributory that leads to it, no matter if it is normal wear and tear or faulty gunsmithing. If the four rules are followed, those end well for everyone.

Striker
May 2, 2012, 12:19 PM
To my way of thinking (and training) ADs and NDs are seperate and distinct, though both may be characterized as unintentional.

- An accidental discharge is a mechanical failure and occurs without user interaction with the trigger.

- A negligent discharge is one caused by the operator doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing or by not doing something that he was suppose to do, and is most always training (or lack thereof) related.

Having said that, I don't think any modern firearm is more prone then another to unintentional discharges, if the user understands and trains in the proper manipulation of the firearm in question.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

loneviking
May 2, 2012, 01:11 PM
Glock, for the reason that even very experienced shooters have ADs with these due to the trigger design. Second would be 1911s that are either in the hands of a new shooter or that are mechnically defective. Running a close third are single action 'cocked and locked' with no grip safety like Sigs P238, or a DA/SA with only a slide safety carried 'cocked and locked'.

TonyT
May 2, 2012, 01:38 PM
According to an old gunsmith friend it's the one that is believed to be unloaded.

Manson
May 2, 2012, 02:07 PM
I admit I am having a hard time with some of the responses.

Which gun is most likely to be involved in a negligent discharge? The one owned by the person most likely to forget the rules.

Which manufacturers gun is most likely to be involved in a negligent discharge? Glock followed by a 1911. Because there are simply more of them. It's not design, it's math. Field strip a glock. Don't unload it. Don't clear it. Don't point the gun in a safe direction. Place your hand over the muzzle and pull the trigger. If you are that stupid say hello to hole in your hand.

This is the kind of thread that I hate to see. We get people in the gun community talking about guns as if they are inherently dangerous. Just the kind of thing the anti's love.

No one gun is more likely in and of itself to be involved than another. All modern guns are safe. Modern man is not.

M1key
May 2, 2012, 02:14 PM
Nonsense. I have several of those in rifles, shotguns and pistols.

I don't think any of them are more prone to have an accident. Where there is a careless soul, there is a way. :)



Took it personal did ya? Hardly nonsense. Ask any gunsmith who has had to repair them.

M

Owen Sparks
May 2, 2012, 02:43 PM
Pistols are like any other power tool in that they are designed to fit the hand. The index finger just naturally fits into the trigger guard. This can become a problem with people who are unfamiliar with them and a mechanical safety can sometimes prevent an accident by blocking the trigger.
Many 1911 fans claim that the safety can save your life if someone snatches your pistol. If you handed a loaded Glock to a chimp he would probably shoot it as the most natural way to hold it puts his index finger on the one moving part. You can hand a loaded 1911 to a seasoned Glock shooter to try and still have to show him how to take the safety off.

EddieNFL
May 2, 2012, 03:08 PM
You can put your finger in the triggerguard and spin and shake a stock Glock (with empty chamber) all around, and the trigger will not break.

Did you read that somewhere or know from personal experience?

X-Rap
May 2, 2012, 03:32 PM
Did you read that somewhere or know from personal experience?
Gee I just read this and like a monkey I had to try, yes you must shake it quite vigorously to get the trigger to break.
I don't have a 1911 here at he moment but I will bet that so long as the grip safety is functioning it will stay safe with the same treatment, I wouldn't bet on another sa/da that was cocked with the safety wiped off.

M1key
May 2, 2012, 03:36 PM
LOL...just tried that with my Glock 19 (unloaded) and he's right. :neener: Twirled the pistol over head and up/down for several seconds and I couldn't get the striker to drop. Then tried it with chamber empty/fully loaded mag. Nada...

How about you Glockers, XDers, M&Pers give that a try and report back, okay?

Mine has a 5.5# connector btw.


M

X-Rap
May 2, 2012, 03:39 PM
You have to hold your finger with the other hand and shake real hard, if I have to continue these tests I will have to use a wooden dowel cause my finger hurts to bad:uhoh:

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2012, 04:14 PM
To all that say Glock, do a search for the ND poll on this forum. There were more "oops, the hammer slipped while I was decocking" ND's than all the ND's that were even possible to attribute to a lack of a manual safety! Since the Glock doesn't have an external hammer, it's safe to say Glock ain't it. And in the comments, 1911's and revolvers were implicated many times more often than Glocks. 1911's seem to be the #1 creators of unwanted holes in bedroom walls.

There are more ND's with Glocks and there lack of external hammers than Sigs with their decockers....

1911's are not cause of more ND's than Glocks are, and police departments and civilians alike have proven that many times over.

How about you Glockers, XDers, M&Pers give that a try and report back, okay?

My M&P's striker didn't fall

45_auto
May 2, 2012, 05:07 PM
LMAO! - Don't you just love these totally unverifiable statements!

There are more ND's with Glocks and there lack of external hammers than Sigs with their decockers....

No there aren't, there are more ND's with Sigs and their decockers than there are with Glocks.

1911's are not cause of more ND's than Glocks are, and police departments and civilians alike have proven that many times over.

1911's are the cause of more ND's than Glocks because of people trying to lower the hammer. That's why most police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol. Police departments and civilians alike have proven that many times over.

I'll show you my data if you'll show me yours! ;)

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2012, 05:13 PM
1911's are the cause of more ND's than Glocks because of people trying to lower the hammer. That's why most police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol. Police departments and civilians alike have proven that many times over.

If said police departments would permit the carry of a SA first shot then no officer would be trying to lower the hammer on a live round.....

brickeyee
May 2, 2012, 05:16 PM
The one being held by a fool.

Nothing is foolproof, fools are to ingenious.

TonyAngel
May 2, 2012, 05:18 PM
I really don't know why Glocks get such a bad rap. The darned gun can't go off unless the trigger is pulled. I mean, a Glock isn't even "cocked" until the trigger is pulled.

Are the Glock knockers saying that a safety of some sort is needed to keep people from pulling the trigger?

I will admit that I can't disagree that most accidental or negligent discharges that I see or hear about involve Glocks, but of course, there are a lot more Glocks out there than some other makes.

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2012, 05:25 PM
Are the Glock knockers saying that a safety of some sort is needed to keep people from pulling the trigger?

The question was which gun is more prone to a negligent discharge. This means someone being an idiot.

It is easier to cause a ND with a Glock than with a 1911 (or any other gun with a manual safety). It takes more thought into what you are doing if you have a manual safety, and that is a fact (and also a reason why many people here carry Glocks, so don't try to refute that statement now).

ny32182
May 2, 2012, 05:31 PM
I would say that more thinking required = more opportunity to be "negligent".

TonyAngel
May 2, 2012, 05:53 PM
It is easier to cause a ND with a Glock than with a 1911 (or any other gun with a manual safety). It takes more thought into what you are doing if you have a manual safety, and that is a fact (and also a reason why many people here carry Glocks, so don't try to refute that statement now).


I'm not getting this. What is it that I'm supposed to refrain from refuting?

In anycase, I really don't agree with anything taking more thought. I don't care what handgun you have. If you have to think about anything, you haven't trained enough with it.

CMC
May 2, 2012, 05:54 PM
All guns are prone to ND if the safety between the ears is not engaged!
All guns are loaded at all times, if you dont know how to handle it properly dont touch it.
I take my grandkids shooting and safety is everybodys job , the older kids also help with muzzle control ,finger off the trigger until sights are on target and off when not shooting.
We make sure autoloaders are shot dry , also the action is opened and a clear has to be shown before you leave the firing line.
BTW they love 22 and 9mm 1911's .

Tony he is referring to not refuse the fact that people like glocks because they dont have a safety, all you have to do is pull the trigger and you dont really have to think about using it , ease of use with limited training.
Glocks can be outfitted with a 1911 style safety made by Comminolli or the sliding pin trigger block safety that replaces the trigger.

LTR shooter
May 2, 2012, 06:11 PM
Of all modern guns?

Glock.

Almost every ND you read about involving cops or football players involve Glocks.

A cop here in town actually managed to shoot himself. The cops here carry 45 cal Glocks. Regardless ,it is not the fault of the gun by any means.

The question was which gun is more prone to a negligent discharge. This means someone being an idiot.

Would undoubtedly apply to the cop here in town.

GLOOB
May 2, 2012, 06:41 PM
You can put your finger in the triggerguard and spin and shake a stock Glock (with empty chamber) all around, and the trigger will not break.
Did you read that somewhere or know from personal experience?
I know because I've tried it. I also know that simply readjusting my grip on my cocked 6" 686 with my finger on the trigger is a very bad idea. 3 lb gun, 2 lb trigger pull with a 0.001mm travel* = not forgiving of mistakes.

*It's not just the weight of the trigger pull that's important, either. The length matters, too. If you were to bobble or jostle the gun with finger on the trigger, the takeup would buffer the impact. Work = force x distance. So a longer trigger with the same break weight takes more work to fire.

When evaluating a trigger's relative safety, I believe it's important to note the length of travel, the weight of the gun, and the ergos of the gun and trigger guard, in addition to just considering the weight of the trigger break. All this blabber basically amounts to my patent-pending shake & spin test.

It is easier to cause a ND with a Glock than with a 1911 (or any other gun with a manual safety). I totally disagree. I think the manual safety is limited in its benefit to certain scenarios (bedside drawer without a holster, or when reholstering). If you compare a gun with a hair trigger and an external hammer and a manual safety (not saying a 1911, in particular) to a stock Glock, I think the Glock would be much harder to ND. We hear about the sensational ND's, like the drawstring or holster malfunction. What doesn't make the headlines are all the "ordinary" ND's that are much more common. Like "I dunno how, but the hammer just slipped..." or the "forgot to take my finger off the trigger and the gun just went off" or the "was expecting a clink and got a BANG" NDs. Note that in any of these much more common scenarios, it is unreasonable to believe the manual safety would even be on.

45_auto
May 2, 2012, 06:56 PM
You can spin your cocked 686 around your finger if you move your hand correctly. Move your hand in a small circle as the revolver spins so that your trigger finger is always pressing against the front of the trigger gaurd. You have to move your hand and trigger finger forward, then up, then back, then down, then forward again as the gun spins around. It would probably be a REAL GOOD idea to make sure that it's unloaded first!

I haven't tried it on anything with a barrel longer than about 6.5" or on any semiautos, but it's pretty easy to do on 686's, 629's, and Ruger and Colt single actions.

(Or so I've been told - heaven forbid that I do something so potentially dangerous myself! You should leave these things to professionals. ;))

cougar1717
May 2, 2012, 07:09 PM
While a ND speaks more about the user than the equipment, I'm surprised that single action revolvers haven't been mentioned yet. It seems like a lot of people have stories that took a bad turn where dropping, cleaning, or unloading were involved.

GLOOB
May 2, 2012, 07:13 PM
You can spin your cocked 686 around your finger if you move your hand correctly.

^ it's "shake & spin," not just "spin." Lol. But yeah, thanks for the heads up. :)

EddieNFL
May 2, 2012, 07:46 PM
1911's are the cause of more ND's than Glocks because of people trying to lower the hammer.

That's like blaming cars for accidents when drivers miss the brake and hit the accelerator. Do you blame the Glock when the cop forgets to remove his finger from the trigger before holstering?

TanklessPro
May 3, 2012, 12:05 AM
LOL...just tried that with my Glock 19 (unloaded) and he's right. :neener: Twirled the pistol over head and up/down for several seconds and I couldn't get the striker to drop. Then tried it with chamber empty/fully loaded mag. Nada...

How about you Glockers, XDers, M&Pers give that a try and report back, okay?

Mine has a 5.5# connector btw.


M
Thanks all. The talk of AD's and spinning handguns, has lead me to my first AD.:banghead::cuss:


Sorry, I could not resist a little sarcasm.:p

The XDs' striker will not fall unless the grip safety in engaged. That's why I went with the XD over the Glock for my first handgun. I know a lot of people say a grip safety is overkill, but I 'm a big fan of them.
Not hating on the Glockers but they say a Glock will not fire unless the trigger is pressed. Couldn't you say that about all handguns, except the nambu.:D
And by the way I do understand how the Glock safety works

helitack32f1
May 3, 2012, 01:08 AM
Glock's are clearly more prone to ND's and AD's. This is due to the grip angle. This grip angle is also responsible for ka-booms, bad accuracy, explosive diarrhea, mid-east tensions, global warming, pertussis, chicken pox, 75% of bed wetting's and evil in general. Combine that with the fact it is not a 1911 and it is made out of plastic and you have a combination that could only be used by the vast majority of police agencies in the US.

CVA-66
May 3, 2012, 02:38 AM
As for as negligent discharge it's got to be the Glock only because of the number of them in use and the cost of the firearm.

GLOOB
May 3, 2012, 02:39 AM
That's like blaming cars for accidents when drivers miss the brake and hit the accelerator. Do you blame the Glock when the cop forgets to remove his finger from the trigger before holstering?
No, I blame the nut behind the trigger. An ND is, by its very definition, an unintentional discharge due to operator error. Because the Glock is lacking the means to perform one of the more common ND's, it is less likely to be ND'd (by the general population, not by you or me, specifically) as a result! The fact that a 1911 has a hammer that CAN be lowered, let alone the fact that this "condition" even has its own NAME, means that there are people who will do it. And the fact that it CAN be screwed up means it will.

helitack32f1
May 3, 2012, 02:44 AM
As for as negligent discharge it's got to be the Glock only because of the number of them in use and the cost of the firearm.
So, ND's are price dependent?

GLOOB
May 3, 2012, 02:51 AM
Haha, of course. "Glock - making ND's affordable!"

Actually, the price of Glocks are up there with all the other premium polymer handguns, minus H&K.

TanklessPro
May 3, 2012, 07:36 AM
So, ND's are price dependent?
Yep. Hi points are 4 times as more likely than a glock and ed browns are 6 times less likely than Glocks. But the flip side is a RIA and a Glock are about the same.
I don't think it is a firearms issue, its a user issue.

jem375
May 3, 2012, 10:57 AM
LMAO! - Don't you just love these totally unverifiable statements!



No there aren't, there are more ND's with Sigs and their decockers than there are with Glocks.



1911's are the cause of more ND's than Glocks because of people trying to lower the hammer. That's why most police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol. Police departments and civilians alike have proven that many times over.

I'll show you my data if you'll show me yours! ;)
1911's have been around for over a hundred years and I am sure there are some AD or ND's that happened because some people don't have the common sense on how to lower the hammer if they want to go into condition 2.
Glocks haven't been around nearly as long but all you hear now are the problems with discharges with the type of so-called safeties they have now. Just about every gun I own has some kind of safety except the 2 Glocks I own. I can't imagine walking in the woods in heavy brush with a guy behind me with a glock he is carrying loaded...

ForumSurfer
May 3, 2012, 11:04 AM
I can't imagine walking in the woods in heavy brush with a guy behind me with a glock he is carrying loaded...

I do it all the time. Kydex has it's advantages.

Nushif
May 3, 2012, 11:13 AM
Kydex has it's advantages.

In this case any holster does. 8)

X-Rap
May 3, 2012, 12:00 PM
I can't imagine walking in the woods in heavy brush with a guy behind me with a glock he is carrying loaded...


Are you talking in the hand or in a holster?
In a proper holster I don't see the difference between it and a 1911 except that the safety has a better chance of getting swept in the brush so be careful when you draw.
If it is carried in the hand and all things are equal I would go with the Glock, the light trigger of the 1911 in cond 1 is far to touchy outside the holster.

jem375
May 3, 2012, 12:42 PM
Are you talking in the hand or in a holster?
In a proper holster I don't see the difference between it and a 1911 except that the safety has a better chance of getting swept in the brush so be careful when you draw.
If it is carried in the hand and all things are equal I would go with the Glock, the light trigger of the 1911 in cond 1 is far to touchy outside the holster.
Yes, I am talking about a guy carrying in his hand a Glock and walking behind me, and you have to remember that a 1911 has a safety plus the grip safety. Anyway, be my guest and walk in front of one in heavy brush or woods.

jem375
May 3, 2012, 12:49 PM
I really don't know why Glocks get such a bad rap. The darned gun can't go off unless the trigger is pulled. I mean, a Glock isn't even "cocked" until the trigger is pulled.

Are the Glock knockers saying that a safety of some sort is needed to keep people from pulling the trigger?

I will admit that I can't disagree that most accidental or negligent discharges that I see or hear about involve Glocks, but of course, there are a lot more Glocks out there than some other makes.
Come on, 1911's have been around for over a hundred years, there are of course more 1911's around than Glocks..

4v50 Gary
May 3, 2012, 12:49 PM
First post nails it. It is always the one that is unloaded.

X-Rap
May 3, 2012, 12:58 PM
Jem you must be in some serious excrement to be pushing through heavy brush with gun in hand, at that point I would hope the guy behind me would be practicing both muzzle and trigger discipline and that I could trust him to not shoot me or ND and give up our position. The gun he carried would be irrelevant.
So why are you doing this with a gun drawn?

jbrown50
May 3, 2012, 01:40 PM
Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge?

The gun that's in the hands of a complacent person.

jem375
May 3, 2012, 03:42 PM
Jem you must be in some serious excrement to be pushing through heavy brush with gun in hand, at that point I would hope the guy behind me would be practicing both muzzle and trigger discipline and that I could trust him to not shoot me or ND and give up our position. The gun he carried would be irrelevant.
So why are you doing this with a gun drawn?
How else would a person hunt?... If it is a shotgun or rifle it would be in your hand, and being a handgun hunter myself it is kind of stupid not to be ready to shoot if the situation arises.. Of course, the T/C's would have to be cocked and the Savage striker safety would be on..

X-Rap
May 3, 2012, 03:50 PM
To each their own, if I could fit a rifle into a holster when hunting I would do it. I have yet to encounter a handgun hunter including myself that didn't take advantage of the fact that you can have both hands free until you make ready to shoot.
Do you even use a holster or is the gun in hand at all times?
FWIW I have used Contenders, K, L, & N frames to hunt but used a holster or sling on all.
The Contender was carried slung and unloaded.

blarby
May 3, 2012, 03:51 PM
The one you don't practice with regularly, are familiar with the functions and dysfunctions of, and as such do not handle properly.

This could be shortened to just "The one you don't handle properly".

brickeyee
May 3, 2012, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by CVA-66 View Post
As for as negligent discharge it's got to be the Glock only because of the number of them in use and the cost of the firearm.
So, ND's are price dependent?

Glocks are cheap to police departments, who tend to buy very large quantities driven heavily by price.

They got chosen since it works about like a revolver to fire.

Pull the trigger, it goes bang.

The other steps of loading, etc. are off duty.

There is no nasty hammer even showing.


The average police officer could care less about what they are told to carry.

jem375
May 3, 2012, 04:11 PM
To each their own, if I could fit a rifle into a holster when hunting I would do it. I have yet to encounter a handgun hunter including myself that didn't take advantage of the fact that you can have both hands free until you make ready to shoot.
Do you even use a holster or is the gun in hand at all times?
FWIW I have used Contenders, K, L, & N frames to hunt but used a holster or sling on all.
The Contender was carried slung and unloaded.
Do you carry your rifles and shotguns in the case in the field also?.. after reading your post, I kind of doubt if you are handgun hunter after all, haven't heard of anyone hunting with an unloaded gun...and yes, I carry my scoped handguns in a bandoleer chest holster until I get serious..

GLOOB
May 3, 2012, 04:12 PM
I can't imagine walking in the woods in heavy brush with a guy behind me with a glock he is carrying loaded...
I'm sure if this had ever happened, it would have made headlines in the firearms community.

If someone could even demonstrate this intentionally, there'd be a video of it on Youtube by some guy named Gl0ckH8tR.

I can just imagine someone throwing/thrusting a Glock into a bush a million times with the camera rolling, before giving up and going home. :)

Actually, there are lots and lots of hunting shotguns and rifles that aren't even close to drop safe. A guy with a Glock would be the least of my concerns. Although I'm with X-rap. I suppose I'd be concerned why he thought he needed to have it in his hand at all times throughout an hours-long excursion.

Girodin
May 3, 2012, 04:54 PM
For those saying glock what makes it more prone than an M&P, or a Steyr, or a caracal, or any number of similar guns? If it is simply a matter of there being more glocks out there, and likely more being carried daily than anything else, then I agree. If it is because people think the design is less safe I'd love to hear an explanation.

The fact is that with modern gun designs NDs come from poor gun handling and/or other unsafe practices. Someone that is unsafe with guns can manage to have a ND irrespective of the gun.

allaroundhunter
May 3, 2012, 04:57 PM
For those saying glock what makes it more prone than an M&P, or a Steyr, or a caracal, or any number of similar guns? If it is simply a matter of there being more glocks out there, and likely more being carried daily than anything else, then I agree. If it is because people think the design is less safe I'd love to hear an explanation.

A Glock is more prone to an ND than an M&P because it requires pulling the trigger to disassemble. There have been cases where an operator thought the chamber was empty and pulled the trigger to disassemble it and it discharged. It is just an extra way that an ND is possible.

Other than that, any gun that has similar characteristics to a Glock, M&P, etc., are just as vulnerable to an ND.

When it comes down to it, all NDs are operator error, there are just some guns that are less forgiving of operator error than others.

ClickClickD'oh
May 3, 2012, 05:09 PM
That's why most police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol.

That's funny... every department around here that doesn't have and issue standard weapon allows 1911s. I see them being carried on duty every day.

45_auto
May 3, 2012, 05:47 PM
Here, I'll try to make it a little clearer for you:

That's why MOST (not all) police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol.

allaroundhunter
May 3, 2012, 05:49 PM
That's why MOST (not all) police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol.

Do you have a list of what police departments prohibit it?

I have seen a 1911 in the holsters of several officers in most all departments that I spend time around here in Texas.

alde
May 3, 2012, 06:48 PM
I have always thought that a 1911 was safe to carry condition 1 but was convinced that it is a safe gun to carry about two weeks ago. I unholstered my Kimber Ultra Carry II from a Cross Breed holster after carrying it for around 11 hours. It turns out the thumb safety was off the whole time. I know that's a bonehead mistake but the grip safety did it's job. Just like any other firearm thoughtfull handling is the number one safety.

EddieNFL
May 3, 2012, 07:22 PM
No, I blame the nut behind the trigger.
So do I. I was responding to your blaming the platform: 1911's are the cause of more ND's...

ClickClickD'oh
May 3, 2012, 07:34 PM
Here, I'll try to make it a little clearer for you:

That's why MOST (not all) police departments prohibit the carry of a single-action first shot automatic pistol.

Uh, yeah. Got your intention the first time. And, I'm calling BS on it, since I know of one department in North Texas that prohibits the 1911... because they prohibit everything that isn't a SIG. Even agencies that "officially" use a certain type of firearm have 1911s working.

The proper statement you should have made is "several (not most) agencies prohibit the 1911". Of course, that's not really an interesting statement because there are several agencies that prohibit just about every firearm out there.

browningguy
May 3, 2012, 07:40 PM
Quite honestly, a Glock. I know all the excuses, blah blah blah, keep your finger off the trigger, yada yada yada, if you follow the 4 rules... and it's all just a bunch of noise.

In my opinion this is a gun designed so that if you are reholstering and a shirt tail/jacket ( or any random thing) gets between the trigger and the holster you get a hole in your leg. It is a solution for people not smart enough to use a manual safety, and it leads to extra speed when playing shooting games, but that's it.

It's the one gun I would never carry, and I never recommend them. For people that aren't comfortable with a manual safety I recommend Springfield XD's, they at least have a slightly lower risk with the grip safety.

EddieNFL
May 3, 2012, 08:12 PM
and it leads to extra speed when playing shooting games

I disagree.

allaroundhunter
May 3, 2012, 08:15 PM
it leads to extra speed when playing shooting games

I will also disagree to an extent. It leads to extra speed for those who don't understand how to swipe off a manual safety on the draw. For those that practice with a manual safety, you don't gain any speed whatsoever.

MCgunner
May 4, 2012, 12:00 AM
Of all modern guns?

Glock.

Almost every ND you read about involving cops or football players involve Glocks.

rc

I'd agree, but add that part of the reason is most of the LEOs in this country are issued Glocks and many are ill trained. Also, regards to celebrities, Glocks are quite popular in gang land and the hip hop world that idolizes the gangstas and drug culture. Sheer numbers added to the unforgiving trigger system and the ill trained or untrained that shove these things down the waist bands of their sweats in New York bars give the Glock the reputation it has.

Or, at least, that's how I see it. I'm obviously not a big fan of the "safe action" trigger, though.

rodinal220
May 4, 2012, 01:00 AM
Any,if these four rules are not obeyed:

1.All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

3.Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

4.Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

Drail
May 4, 2012, 01:09 AM
I would have to say any gun that has the safety mounted on the trigger. THAT was a really great idea.

zxcvbob
May 4, 2012, 01:20 AM
I'd guess it's a toss-up between Glocks and SAA revolvers.

KJS
May 4, 2012, 01:40 AM
Almost every ND you read about involving cops or football players involve Glocks.

I'm sure that's in part due to their extreme popularity, being carried by 65% of cops.

Don't NY cops get 11 pound triggers on their Glocks, such that they don't end up on YouTube like a certain DEA agent who puts a .40 caliber hole in his foot.

KJS
May 4, 2012, 01:55 AM
I bought my first Glock back in March.

I can't claim to be a firearms expert, far from it, but I still can't figure out how so many can manage a ND when stripping it.

Perhaps Glock needs to issue a brightly colored piece of flexible plastic that can be stuck in the from the ejection port & if it comes out the muzzle end they'll know the chamber is indeed empty. The end of this probe can say "Safe to Clean" perhaps.

I think Springfield is onto something with the grip safety they put on their XD & XD-M line. Adds some safety without a user having to do anything extra.

GLOOB
May 4, 2012, 05:54 AM
Don't NY cops get 11 pound triggers on their Glocks, such that they don't end up on YouTube like a certain DEA agent who puts a .40 caliber hole in his foot.
The problem here is that certain DEA agent would have a hole in his foot even if the trigger was 30 lbs and the gun had a grip and manual safety. Cuz he pulled the trigger, intentionally. The 11 lb trigger is supposed to stop these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk :)

kingkeoni
May 4, 2012, 06:12 AM
I've personally witnessed more "ND's" with 1911 types of pistols than any other.

Nushif
May 4, 2012, 08:09 AM
I think Springfield is onto something with the grip safety [...]

I would definitely agree with a low key grip safety being a great addition to just about any gun.

But as for someone saying the amount of NDs a design has is proportional to price, I woud refine that. It is proportional to distribution. The more a gun, or any piece of technology is around the mor elikely it is someone will screw it up.

So is the possibility of an ND a function of price? In a very indirect way, it probably is.

45_auto
May 4, 2012, 08:35 AM
Double action revolvers are by far the most unsafe type of action. All you have to do is pull the trigger at any time (no kind of safety at all!!!) or get something hung up when reholstering.

barnbwt
May 4, 2012, 09:56 AM
Any firearm with ALL the following:
Magazine interlock safety
Internal hammer/striker
No decocker

Seriously, who's bright idea was it to design guns where you have to insert a mag and pull the trigger to decock? Not an impossible design to work with, but definitely not fool-proof.

TCB

loneviking
May 4, 2012, 12:59 PM
45auto....next time you holster a DA revolver, do so with your thumb behind the hammer spur. There is no way that gun can fire by way of the trigger without breaking your thumb.

And for whoever thinks a SA revolver is unsafe to decock, find one and compare the large hammer spur to the tiny to non-existent spur on a 1911. That's the problem with a 1911!

ClickClickD'oh
May 4, 2012, 02:41 PM
That's the problem with a 1911!

Why would anyone be trying to lower the hammer on a loaded 1911? I think that problem stems more from people doing things they shouldn't than a design issue.

allaroundhunter
May 4, 2012, 03:29 PM
Double action revolvers are by far the most unsafe type of action. All you have to do is pull the trigger at any time (no kind of safety at all!!!) or get something hung up when reholstering.

How can you say that a DA revolver is safer than a Glock using this as evidence? DA revolvers have a heavier trigger pull than 99% of Glocks, and if something gets hung up when reholstering the Glock it will discharge with less force being applied. And no, the "Safe Action Trigger" won't help. Heck, my M&P without a manual safety is more prone to an ND than a DA revolver with a 10 lb trigger pull...


And if you just "pull the trigger at any time", a Glock will also discharge, I have tried it (and the "safety" on the Glock didn't even interfere with what I was trying to hit).

I'd guess it's a toss-up between Glocks and SAA revolvers

I wouldn't. SA revolvers are not carried cocked. They are carried hammer down, and the operator must cock the gun as he prepares to fire. Much harder for an ND to occur.

zxcvbob
May 4, 2012, 04:06 PM
I wouldn't. SA revolvers are not carried cocked. They are carried hammer down, and the operator must cock the gun as he prepares to fire. Much harder for an ND to occur.
Decocking one is dangerous, as is dropping it with a loaded chamber if there's no transfer bar system (and most don't have a transfer bar)

In any case, it's a problem with the operator rather than the gun. Just some platforms make it easier to shoot yourself in the foot (metaphorically speaking)

allaroundhunter
May 4, 2012, 04:07 PM
Decocking one is dangerous, as is dropping it with a loaded chamber if there's no transfer bar system (and most don't have a transfer bar)

Agreed, very good points that I, admittedly, did not think of :o

Just some platforms make it easier to shoot yourself in the foot (metaphorically speaking)

And as we know, literally at times :uhoh:

Robert
May 5, 2012, 09:52 AM
Glock, 1911, Glock, 1911, Glock, 1911... Enough. I am a 1911 fan but they are not perfect, neither are Glocks. Both have their issues, accept it and move on.

OP, I truly feel that there is almost nothing I'd call a true accident. Almost every "accident" can be traced back to a bad choice by someone involved. To me a true accident would be waht I'd call and Act of God. As far as that relates to handguns, it is the person holding the gun that will cause 90% of the problems, not the handgun. (Total SWAG on the 90%...)

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