44 Mag lead crimp/ length

Just looking for a little confirmation here.

Just got some MBC's in yesterday, and I opted for 240 gr TCFP in BH 12.

I didnt really like the SWC shape, and this is what they had in BH 12 that wasn't "round"

I'll be starting the charge weight experiments here between 9.5 and 10.0 grs of w-231.

Only hitch i'm hitting is that my load data shows a length of 1.620...

To get near the bottom of the crimp grove as has been described around here ( as shown in the pic attached.... uncrimped on the left, crimped on the right) puts me right near 1.600. To get to the very bottom of the crimp it takes me to 1.596-1.597.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s320x320/405148_381850588522993_1486636030_n.jpg

Just wondering if I'm going to encounter some pressure issues at this length with this load ?

If you have some different advice, I'd be happy to hear that too !

Roll crimp into the crimp groove (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=104541&stc=1&d=1251758452) and that is your OAL for that bullet, no matter what the data says. If it is a good deal shorter than the OAL for the published data, you will have to adjust accordingly. How much? Gotta go with the gut there, and any signs of overpressure such as recoil and velocity not expected from that combination.

If X.X Grs of W-231 with a 240 Gr lead bullet at ABC OAL gives XYZ velocity from a similar barrel/length in your data, look for velocity in that neighborhood. There is no free lunch. Excess velocity = excess pressure. Naturally there are differences in your gun/barrel/etc, but use good sense and factor everything in.

Alrighty, what I might do then is start considerably lower in the charge weight, and work my up from there. I'll just stick in the groove :)

I don't think that small change in length is going to matter much considering how big the case capacity is and how small that charge is. By the way, if you are looking to load hot 44 Mag you need to get a different powder. 231 is way too fast of a powder.

Not looking for particularly hot, trying to stay under 1250.

Just looking for something accurate and cheap ... looks like it might be a long walk :)

If I wanted real hot, I wouldn't be using lead.

Then you don't have anything to worry about.

Can't see the picture... Did you post it ?

Never mind.. I see Walkalong pics... he is right on the $$. Curios on that 9.5 - 10 gr loads with w231.... Can you report back with results/leading if any ?

I'll report 'em all when I get there !

And probably at various points along the way.

1250 FPS with W-231?

Copied and pasted from Hodgdon:

240 GR. LSWC CAST Winchester 231 .430" 1.620" 5.5 800 12,000 CUP 11.0 1334 38,100 CUP

But if I was going to do 1200 to 1300 FPS with lead in .44 Mag, I believe I would use 2400, AA #9, or N110.

I bet recoil would be smoother.

I'll be interested in the results.

Since you are using Truncated Cone bullets, and not SWC?

SWC OAL in a book has nothing to do with anything.

As Walkalong said, seat to the crimp groove and that is the correct OAL.
Then start at the Start load and work up.

If case extraction becomes difficult or sticky?
Or bore leading becomes a problem?

You went too far and need to back off the powder.

rc.

Ya walkies, I'm trying to have at least one powder in common between the 45 and the 44 other than Unique.

It also offers the most range of use, weight wise, for finding out what works and what wont.

Recoil doesn't really bother me, even after 100+ full house 44 mag loads. It starts to effect my grip a little at that point.... but I'm trying to not get anywhere near that pressure anyways. Like you said, should be a fun experiment.

I know RC, I'm actually having trouble finding any data on LTFC in 44 mag.... Published data, anyways.

That crimp looks about pluperfect to me!

Being cheap and all, if you can live in the 1100-1200 range, Unique is definitely the best bang for the buck. Once you get much faster than that 2400 is king, but it literally takes twice as much powder. And you'll want to use a harder bullet like the 18BHN MBC offerings.

Ok, well range test day has come and gone.

the 5.5 to 6.5 grs didn't do so hot.

the 7.0 did ok, and the 7.5 and 8.0 compared very favorably to my jacketed reloads in terms of grouping and fire-ability at 10-15 yards. Got bullseyes and "flyers" from both lead and jacketed today. Was kinda rushed, and wasn't focusing on my sight picture nor trigger pull as much as I should have been.

None of them produced significant leading, although there was some just north of the forcing cone, into the first 3/4" of rifling.

2 jacketed rounds however, took it all out just super-duper.

Seeing as the 7.5 and 8 gr versions shot well, I don't believe I need to go any further at this time.

Once I start shooting significantly better in both jacketed and lead, I will try to go north of 8 grs and see if I notice any marked improvement.

The leading at the forcing cone is often caused by the bullet being slightly undersized for your forcing cone, the powder being too hot and burning the base of the bullet, or the alloy is not being obturated enough to seal the bore- need a heavier charge.

The picture on the right showing a good roll crimp is the way to go with the cartridge.

Good luck!

Yep, either the bullet is a little undersized for the throats, which could be made worse by being to hard for the pressure, or the load is simply too light for the size/hardness/relationship of the bullet size to the throats. Both of which say the same thing.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6232577&postcount=7

Well, I went with the BH 12 you recommended. Cant really change the BH or the Diameter- at least in this 500 !

I can't really backwords slug it through the cone, can I ? Maybe I should try...

Or I can just keep going up the pressure/speed chain and see if the leading disappears.

In any event, not sure if they correlate, but : it looks nothing like the severe leading I was getting in wrong sized bullet rifle.... THAT level would concern me. It started to develop after about 30 rounds, and got noticeable after about 60 or 66. Thats when I pushed it out with jacketed- and it came right out like a magic eraser :)

I'll keep ratcheting up the load and see if it disappears. IF it doesn't, thats till not too bad- its plenty accurate.

Did you look for leading after each different load? It may have been the light load (the 5.5 to 6.5 grs didn't do so hot) doing it.

Bumping the pressure up will help upset the bullet and seal better.

I did check after each load progression.

After each load bump, I cleared the bore with two jacketed rounds. The residue from the previous firings would pretty much be limited to carbon.... and the jacketed loads I'm using aren't leaving any copper fouling yet- thankfully.

I didn't start shooting more than a cylinder or two until I got to the 7.0 range, when it started getting close enough to point of aim to be worth using more.

I got rained out today, sadly.....This'll probably get back-burnered until next wednesday until any more trials can commence.

*dang rain * !

Ok, heres a good one.

Some of the lead loads, as I'm processing the fired brass, still have residual roll crimp.

What does that tell me ? Not enough pressure ? Too much crimp ? ( all crimped as in 1st post)

It's normal. Don't worry about it.

That is one reason well roll crimped brass can crack sooner. It gets worked harder. Back and forth it goes from being crimped to being flared, to being crimped, to ..... not to mention sizing and firing.

I always roll crimp into the crimp groove with all my cast lead bullets.

Good to know. I'm used to lead in rifle...it doesn't save the crimp :)

chaNGE YOUR POWDER FROM 231 TO 2400 and I always crimp in the crimping grove.

DONT SCreAM AT Me and I'm not into changing powders at this point for lead :)