Having extra pounds added to trigger pull.


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Orion8472
May 2, 2012, 09:01 PM
You read that right. I'm having my gunsmith add to the pull of the trigger on my CZ 75 SP-01. I have a SAO trigger on it and after using his tester, it came out to 2 3/4 lbs. :uhoh: I'm going to have him up it to 4 lbs.

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Certaindeaf
May 2, 2012, 09:12 PM
Sounds like pretty good idea.

Kiln
May 2, 2012, 09:18 PM
Yeah that does seem light. Then again same pay good money to have one adjusted to be that light.

mgmorden
May 2, 2012, 11:31 PM
2 3/4 lbs isn't that light - particularly for a gun with a thumb safety. I run my M&P 9L around there with no safety. Some people on race guns run triggers less than 2 lbs. If it was a concealed carry gun that was going to be held close to the body I'd up it, but for anything else - range toy, competition, open carry, home defense - I'd say thats exactly where it should be :).

Orion8472
May 3, 2012, 08:35 AM
The reason why I wanted to add weight, . . . . every once in a while, when I stage the trigger, I will get a discharge before I'm actually ready. I'm, of course, ON target [which is why I'm on the trigger], but staging to the break point sometimes fires it before I'm completely ready. If it were a single stage trigger, I would probably leave it as it is.

Plus, I don't want this gun to just be a "target" or "range toy". I want it to be more setup for . . . . "combat" [for lack of a better word], so don't want it THAT light. I'm kinda wanting the weight to be around that of a non-modified 1911, which was the goal of the SAO trigger [and competition hammer and firing pin block removal] work I had done to it.

ku4hx
May 3, 2012, 09:03 AM
I cut my teeth on revolvers that had 3 - 3 1/2 pound trigger pulls. Those were some mighty smooth, light and crisp triggers ...still are. But setting up to fire was slow, timed and precise so as to hopefully drop the critter with the first shot. Combat conditions are very different from Whitetail harvesting.

If you feel you need a four pound trigger weight, they you do in fact need a four pound trigger weight. All the better if it adds to safety and proficiency.

Orion8472
May 3, 2012, 11:00 AM
I would like to get it close to all my other triggers. None of them are that light. . . . not even the Volquartsen in my Mark II [a VERY accurate gun]. So, I think I'm doing the right thing here.

Revolver triggers are a bit different. The ones I've shot basically had a single stage trigger [when hammer cocked back].

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 12:20 PM
If, in the unlikely event, you do have to use your pistol in a defensive context the weapon will be examined in a forensic laboratory. Should the trigger pull be found to be in the two-pounds plus range the fact would be noticed and reported. After that the question of deliberate vs. unintentional firing will be introduced into the investigation - and maybe later in court. By having the pull increased to four pounds you will head off this speculation. Your intentions are wise.

Orion8472
May 3, 2012, 12:58 PM
I hadn't considered that. Thanks for the comment!

The Lone Haranguer
May 3, 2012, 01:50 PM
Agree with it or not, most "gun 'pundits'" recommend not less than ~4-4.5 lbs. if it is to be used as a defensive handgun.

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 02:06 PM
Which is the reason J&G Sales has police trade-in, DAO/bobbed hammer revolvers in stock. ;)

Skylerbone
May 3, 2012, 02:19 PM
I truly hope anyone who brandishes a firearm and points it at another person in a self-defense situation does so with the full intent of shooting. That such conditions exist (loaded weapon aimed at person) rules out unintentional unless one intends to employ an ignorance of firearm safety proceedure defense... In either case the pull weight of said trigger won't matter and will be the least of problems to come.

MCgunner
May 3, 2012, 02:26 PM
Everyone's different. I find about 7 lbs SA on a DA gun works for me if the DA is light and smooth to match. My Ruger P90 came this way. I've had two Ruger 9s that aren't nearly as good in transition, heavier SA triggers. My Radom P64 is probably 2 lbs in SA and probably 14 lbs (after the Wolff Springs) in DA. I get double taps whether I want 'em or not. :rolleyes: I still like the gun, but don't carry it much.

For pocket carry, I really prefer a long, heavy DAO that's smooth. I carry a Kel Tec P11 mostly or a DA revolver.

I just have to shake my head at all these folks that want a 2 ounce trigger on a Glock or something. Better them than me, put it that way.

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 04:55 PM
I truly hope anyone who brandishes a firearm and points it at another person in a self-defense situation does so with the full intent of shooting. That such conditions exist (loaded weapon aimed at person) rules out unintentional unless one intends to employ an ignorance of firearm safety proceedure defense... In either case the pull weight of said trigger won't matter and will be the least of problems to come.

Not necessarily so. We will say for argument that a person with a single action/double action handgun shoots another individual using the heavy double action mode, and the circumstances justified the shooting.

However in a later court action (criminal or civil) all a lawyer has too do is convince the jury (or judge, whatever) that the shooter is lying and that what really happened was that the handgun was cocked, and the shooter unintentionally fired when they touched the "hair trigger. No one can really prove what happened, so it comes down to who presents the most believable case and the jury/judge buy’s it. Think it can't happen? It already has, several times.

On the other hand if the handgun (regardless of what kind) has a heavy DAO trigger pull, or a heavy single action pull in addition to a heavier double action one, this outcome isn't likely to happen.

If the single action trigger pull (if there is one) is lighter then the manufacturer’s minimum weight specification the chances of the shooter getting into serious trouble go way up.

Orion8472
May 3, 2012, 04:59 PM
I'm just hoping that making it 4 lbs of pull is enough. I think it will be, though. What is the normal 1911 trigger pull?

Skylerbone
May 3, 2012, 06:57 PM
Well if that same attorney were to be arguing in court he would look back to the original 1911 specs and determine that "normal" as drawn up was something like 10 lbs.

My lawyer would inform the judge/jury that I was found not guilty of manslaughter or negligent homicide and that evidence previously introduced confirmed my intentions based on the situation. Likely it wouldn't matter as both liberal judges and juries to a large degree feel the need to punish (why else would you be there and why else would they exist?) Likely my financial future would be bleak, especially with my hair trigger set at just 40% (4 lbs.) of its design. The upside? States are introducing sensible legislation that limits prosecution and civil liability cases for those lawful citizens who choose to defend themselves. Having watched recent events unfold however should give us all pause as to when and where a stand must be taken.

It's always a decision that must be carefully weighed as to whether or not carry of a firearm vs. non-lethal or less lethal alternatives. Also why I have only once been forced to train a firearm on a human target, at 4:30 AM while attempting to break in. It is a sickening act that should never be taken lightly and for the record I too would recommend something at or above 4 lbs. on the trigger.

Train with it, learn what you can, use your head and you'll never be forced to lie about not knowing the safety was off or that it was an accident or that you never learned the first rule of firearm safety. Heck, when they read this transcript they'll convict you of perjury.

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 07:35 PM
Well if that same attorney were to be arguing in court he would look back to the original 1911 specs and determine that "normal" as drawn up was something like 10 lbs.

For the record, 5 to 6 1/2 pounds.

But it is far more likely that the attorney would contact the manufacturer of that particular pistol, and inquire about trigger pull requirements and specifications. If they thought they'd hit pay dirt he/she would ask if the company would provide a qualified witness who could testify that the gun was "not within specifications," and if not a witness, a deposition.

Today a 4-pound pull might (just might) get by, but under 3 would be on dangerous ground, and between 2 and 2 1/2 would lift eyebrows.

The defense might counter that competition pistols of the same kind often have lighter then 4 pound pulls, but it would be a weak answer that probably most members of a jury would reject. In their likely inexpert opinion if the gun manufacturer said the trigger was not up to minimum standard that would be all she wrote.

The Old Fuff will note that the easy way to increase the weight of a 1911 platform pistol, as well as many others, is to install a stronger hammer spring. The modification will also tend to buffer felt recoil.

Skylerbone
May 3, 2012, 07:44 PM
Or add some tension to the sear spring. The defense rests Old Fuff but the jury is still out. ;)

Fixed it.

Fremmer
May 3, 2012, 07:47 PM
Lol alternatively a lawyer could argue you knew you lacked the reasonable skill to use the stock trigger before the incident Occurred. Anyway, its your gun, if you want to make it more difficult to shoot accurately in a self defense situation, by all means proceed.

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 07:54 PM
Or add some tension to the recoil spring.

The recoil spring change won't do anything to increase the trigger pull, and has little affect on felt recoil. It's purpose is to return the slide into battery.

On the other hand, the hammer, pressing on the firing pin stop, does act as a buffer until it is rotated to the cocked position, after which it still presses against the disconector rail. There increasing spring tension does have an affect.

End of thread drift I hope... :)

rellascout
May 3, 2012, 08:36 PM
For the record, 5 to 6 1/2 pounds.

I have tested stock production 1911s which were anywhere from 4lbs to 8lbs out of the box....

Orion8472
May 3, 2012, 09:00 PM
Good discussion guys. A few things I hadn't considered before.

Anyway, I believe that a hammer spring is what he plans on doing. If it hits just over 4 lbs., I'll be good with that.

Old Fuff
May 3, 2012, 09:09 PM
I have tested stock production 1911s which were anywhere from 4lbs to 8lbs out of the box....

So have I... ;)

But it isn't so much what the trigger pull is, as what the pistol's manufacturer says it's supposed to be, especially on the minimum side.

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