is this illegal ?


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stuckonstupid
May 3, 2012, 05:14 PM
hey i just signed up and trying to build a ar-15.i just got 1000$ and i was told i should buy a lower first. well im 18 and cant i also live in california. so can i have my mom buy it for me then put it in my name? or can i have my nieghbor sell me his extra lower,(or give it to me as a gift then give him money under the table)please help thanks

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tyeo098
May 3, 2012, 05:20 PM
well im 18 and cant i also live in california. so can i have my mom buy it for me then put it in my name?
Illegal.

or can i have my nieghbor sell me his extra lower,
Legal (CA law not withstanding)
(or give it to me as a gift then give him money under the table)please help thanks
Illegal... wait, what?

25cschaefer
May 3, 2012, 05:35 PM
Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?
Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category, pdf and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit a Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction, pdf and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b).



This is from the California DOJ http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#5

56hawk
May 3, 2012, 05:36 PM
well im 18 and cant i also live in california.

Hate to be a grammar Nazi but this doesn't make any sense. If you are 18 you should be able to buy a rifle without any problems.

CoRoMo
May 3, 2012, 05:37 PM
...you are 18 you should be able to buy a rifle without any problems.
He said...
...i should buy a lower first.
A lower is technically not a rifle.

Ryanxia
May 3, 2012, 05:44 PM
CoRoMo what 56hawk is saying is that if he is 18 what is the issue with any part of the rifle? If you can buy a whole one why wouldn't you be able to buy the lower?

tyeo098
May 3, 2012, 05:45 PM
He said...

A lower is technically not a rifle.
A lower is. A stripped however, is not.

56hawk
May 3, 2012, 05:53 PM
It's my understanding that an AR lower is usually classified as a rifle. I bought one back when I was 18 or 19 without any problems and it was just the receiver with no stock attached.

egwa_yona92
May 3, 2012, 06:02 PM
legally when you perchase a firearm or in your case a lower reciever you have to be the one to purchase it. The sale of firearms states in the registration paper that you are the owner of the item or firearm. *** But you can have the reciever switched over to your name. But pay attention to your local laws and where your located such as in city limits etc...

egwa_yona92
May 3, 2012, 06:03 PM
because the lower reciever has the trigger and thats what makes it go "boom" that in itself is classified as a firearm

PapaG
May 3, 2012, 06:06 PM
A stripped lower in the state of Illinois is classified along with firearms and is subject to the background check.

Bubbles
May 3, 2012, 06:14 PM
It's my understanding that an AR lower is usually classified as a rifle. I bought one back when I was 18 or 19 without any problems and it was just the receiver with no stock attached.
ATF changed the 4473 a few years back to include an 'Other' category, it used to have just 'Long Gun' and 'Handgun'. You have to be over 21 to buy a Handgun or an Other from a dealer, and over 18 to buy a Long Gun.

A complete lower receiver is an 'Other', not a long gun, as it does not have a barrel.

CoRoMo
May 3, 2012, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by CoRoMo
He said...

A lower is technically not a rifle.
A lower is. A stripped however, is not.
No. Not always. See Bubbles' post...
A complete lower receiver is an 'Other', not a long gun...
This completed lower receiver (complete lower half) (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=235) is not a long gun or rifle.
...the lower reciever has the trigger and thats what makes it go "boom" that in itself is classified as a firearm
That's not actually why the lower is considered the 'firearm'. Just because a section of a firearm "has the trigger", and just because the trigger is "what makes it go boom", means nothing in regards to what component receives the serial number and is then regulated as the 'firearm'. The following thread had a tangent discussion that dealt with this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8129346

dprice3844444
May 3, 2012, 06:33 PM
just buy a california approved rifle and save yourself some grief with the locals

56hawk
May 3, 2012, 06:38 PM
ATF changed the 4473 a few years back to include an 'Other' category, it used to have just 'Long Gun' and 'Handgun'. You have to be over 21 to buy a Handgun or an Other from a dealer, and over 18 to buy a Long Gun.

I never noticed that. Guess because I have never filled out that part of the form. If it's an 'other', doesn't it need a tax stamp?

stuckonstupid
May 3, 2012, 06:44 PM
i didnt mean the cant and the last part was me joking i no that was illegal but i can buy the lower(it is fully complete) from him?

dogmush
May 3, 2012, 06:45 PM
I never noticed that. Guess because I have never filled out that part of the form. If it's an 'other', doesn't it need a tax stamp?

No, It's still a Title I firearm, just not a "Long Gun " or "Pistol".

Don't the PGO shotguns also fall under "Other"?

Note: Don't confuse a Title I "Other" Firearm with a Title II "Any Other Weapon". They're completely different animals.

but i can buy the lower(it is fully complete) from him?

Does California allow person to person (Non-FFL) transfers? If it does, you can buy it from him. ETA: Never mind, see below

ETA:
I checked the CA DOJ link above.

What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?
All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun.

The bold part is what matters here. You can't buy it because an FFL can't transfer it to you. If you have a $1000, just buy the complete rifle.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct922.aspx

Madcap_Magician
May 3, 2012, 06:45 PM
Depending on California's definition of "Assault Rifle" you may have an issue with having your parents buy it for you.

Also, it has to be CA compliant. Which defeats the purpose of having an AR.

CoRoMo
May 3, 2012, 06:47 PM
If it's an 'other', doesn't it need a tax stamp?
'Other' does not refer to an AOW (NFA/any other weapon).

It refers to a firearm that is not technically a rifle (yet), not technically a pistol (yet), and not technically a shotgun (yet). A lower receiver like the OP is looking for could be built into an AR rifle or an AR pistol. Also, those pistol-grip-only shotguns (http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/50591.jpg) fall into this category because they don't fully fit the definition of a 'shotgun' as they are not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

ETA: dogmush beat me to it

Jim K
May 3, 2012, 06:48 PM
I thought the standard AR-15 lower was illegal to buy in CA since it can accept a detachable magazine. Perhaps I misunderstand.

Jim

56hawk
May 3, 2012, 06:50 PM
Wow this is confusing. So if I have this right, you can get your mom to buy an other weapon. Then built it into a rifle at which point she can sell it to you as a rifle.

dogmush
May 3, 2012, 07:01 PM
Wow this is confusing. So if I have this right, you can get your mom to buy an other weapon. Then built it into a rifle at which point she can sell it to you as a rifle.

Actually no....well Maybe. If she buys the lower planning to build it into a rifle and sell it to the kid, then it's arguably a straw purchase. (Because it's really his money buying it) But if she buys it for herself, builds it, decides she doesn't like it and wants to sell it, then she can. She can also buy the lower planning to build the rifle and GIVE it to her son, as long as he doesn't compensate her for it in any way.

Clear yet?

In no case can the under 21 year old take possession of the stripped lower. It has to be a complete, legal rifle before he gets it.

IANAL, and don't live in california, but it's possible that the kid could buy the parts (minus lower) build the lower in his neighbors house on his neighbors lower, then buy the complete rifle from his neighbor. (At an FFL, conforming to CA's laws). But honestly, building an AR isn't THAT hard or cool. Just buy the dang thing built.

stuckonstupid
May 3, 2012, 07:07 PM
i was going to buy it built, but i dont get paid till the end of the month,so i couldnt afford the upper till then

allaroundhunter
May 3, 2012, 07:26 PM
Then wait until the end of the month and buy the thing assembled.

Also, seeing as you are 18 and getting into the world, I will let you in on a little secret. Proper grammar is valued. It also makes everything much more concise and easier to understand.

NavyLCDR
May 3, 2012, 07:30 PM
i was going to buy it built, but i dont get paid till the end of the month,so i couldnt afford the upper till then
So what are you going to do now?

zoom6zoom
May 3, 2012, 08:23 PM
18 in California and want an AR? Easiest thing to do is join the Army, they'll give you one.

Rail Driver
May 3, 2012, 08:33 PM
18 in California and want an AR? Easiest thing to do is join the Army, they'll give you one.
They don't let you keep them, and they're not AR-15 anyway - the Army uses M16s and M4s (training is usually with M16s from my experience)

Buy an already built, California compliant rifle.

smalls
May 3, 2012, 08:38 PM
because the lower reciever has the trigger and thats what makes it go "boom" that in itself is classified as a firearm

No, because the lower receiver is the serialized part. It takes more than a trigger to make it "go boom".

Mainsail
May 3, 2012, 09:10 PM
^^^I think this is correct. On the Sig 552 (or 556 or both) I believe the upper is the serialized part.

smalls
May 3, 2012, 09:16 PM
Well, yeah. Some guns do have a serialized upper, but for the most part, lowers are the serialized part. I gave a basic statement, and there is more to it.

But, either way, it's not the "firearm" portion because it has the trigger.

coloradokevin
May 3, 2012, 09:20 PM
Wow, this thread got confusing fast. I know NOTHING of CA laws, so I have no idea if you'd run afoul of their rules by attempting to follow this advice:

1) On an AR-15 the lower receiver is the part that is considered to be "the gun". The rest of the AR parts can be bought and sold without an FFL, the FFL is needed when you buy the new lower receiver.

2) Buying from a third party doesn't require an FFL transfer in most states (no idea about CA).

3) You can legally own/purchase a rifle at 18 years of age in most states (no idea about CA).

4) You can legally buy/possess a lower receiver and build it into a gun in most states (no idea about CA).

Zoogster
May 3, 2012, 09:32 PM
Honestly I would not recommend someone with your limited understanding of firearm laws at this point in time try to build your own AR in California.

The "assault weapon' legislation is relatively complex for someone new to it all, and something as simple as putting the wrong plastic grip on the rifle, such as those regularly sold in many stores, can create a felony offense.

Screwing the wrong thing on the front, felony. Yet you can buy them legally from gun stores all over the state, or online.

Removing one component but not several others or replacing the right parts? Felony. Removing a bullet button or pinned in magazine for example could make all the other no no parts that were only okay because that was done suddenly excessive 'evil' features that make it a felony 'assault weapon' to possess.

If you buy a complete one it will be in a legal configuration. You however will still need to become more aware of the laws before you start buying little seemingly innocent accessories for it, or removing parts from it.
One plastic grip is okay in your configuration, one is felony, both sold next to each other in the store. Changing one part may require changing several others at the same time to avoid a felony, while changing another by itself can be okay.
A lot of people unfamiliar with firearm laws think that just because a part is sold legally in a store it is legal to install, which is not at all accurate (if the result is something prohibited).

Even just what the firearm started out as can determine which of two identical firearms are legal and illegal.


The law is not common sense, it is very specific and while some is intuitive some is counterintuitive and can even seem to contradict other examples, and so requires knowing the specifics details.



As for your specific question, you cannot purchase a lower receiver as the feds are treating it like a handgun. You used to be able to buy it as a handgun or rifle on the paperwork (which it then remained for life determining what could and could not be done with it), and so you could buy it as a rifle receiver at 18-20. Now it is an 'other' and like a handgun cannot be sold by an FFL to someone under 21. A complete rifle is however a rifle and can be purchased at 18.

If you give the money to anyone else to purchase it for you it is an illegal straw purchase.

coloradokevin said:
2) Buying from a third party doesn't require an FFL transfer in most states (no idea about CA).

In California nearly all transfers must go through an FFL per state law. This as a result means all such transfers then must follow Federal law regarding FFL restrictions. This includes the 21 age limit for 'other' firearms and handguns, even purchased used from a third party. As a result no 18 year old can buy anything from a third party they could not buy from an FFL.
It also results in a lot of other restrictions and additional costs on all age brackets.

stuckonstupid
May 3, 2012, 09:51 PM
yea i no about proper grammer. but have you typed and thought of two different things?well i did and that happend. also what website sells ar15's for around 750-800?thanks

Apuuli
May 3, 2012, 09:58 PM
"yea i no about proper grammer."

HA! Now THAT'S funny!

Zoogster
May 3, 2012, 10:29 PM
also what website sells ar15's for around 750-800?

You may want to find out your local FFL out of state transfer rates.
Since any gun purchased online will have to be shipped to an FFL and not you.

Many store fronts charge $50-100 (I even got a $150 quote) just to transfer the gun to you. In-state transfers are limited to $35 to transfer by California law, but they have no limit for out of state transfers.
California has also started forcing FFLs to collect sales tax on out of state purchased firearms. So you must pay sales tax to get the FFL to release it to you.

Say an around 8-9% sales tax on $800 would be up to $72.
Add an outrageous transfer fee.
Then you have the shipping costs, which can vary but often cost more for firearms than other goods.
Suddenly the gun you purchased online for $800 can easily be $1,000 to take home.

So if you only save say $100 on buying online, be aware of the hidden costs. Sometimes one a little more expensive at the store than the price of one online is cheaper overall.
It is unfortunate because people in other states often get deals on firearms a typical Californian would have a hard time getting.


Additionally grammar and structure gives a perspective of maturity and attention to detail online. I make plenty of mistakes myself, but your typing gives an impression of someone likely to miss a lot of the specific complicated details in California firearm law. One mistake on some minor detail can prevent you from legally owning a firearm for the rest of your life.
There is a lot to learn in California, that differs from popular perception or popular culture on ownership, possession, self-defense and other legal aspects of firearm use.
Whether you put it in the wrong configuration, transport it wrong, etc
You cannot threaten trespassers with it, or all sorts of similar things commonly done in movies, that would be a felony assault with a deadly weapon.
You cannot just go in the woods or someplace similar and use it in most of the state either, and various counties have ordinances that trigger state law and can make using a firearm in some remote location a criminal offense.
The law is very detailed and specific on legal configurations, use, transport, etc
Be sure to know the law or you won't be a legal firearm owner long in California, and a California felony makes you prohibited in the entire nation, so you don't get a second chance in a more reasonable place.

Quiet
May 4, 2012, 07:58 AM
With a $1000 budget you can walk into several CA gun stores and buy a CA legal AR15 style rifle.

For example...
Last week, Turner's Outdoorsman (chain sporting good store in CA) had CA legal Del-Ton M4 style rifles on sale for $749.99.

allaroundhunter
May 4, 2012, 04:03 PM
also what website sells ar15's for around 750-800?thanks

budsgunshop.com sells several AR's for that price point. But you will also be paying the FFL transfer fee.

Additionally grammar and structure gives a perspective of maturity and attention to detail online. I make plenty of mistakes myself, but your typing gives an impression of someone likely to miss a lot of the specific complicated details in California firearm law. One mistake on some minor detail can prevent you from legally owning a firearm for the rest of your life.

+100

Quiet
May 12, 2012, 04:13 AM
The Turner's Outdoorsman chain stores currently (05-11-12 through 05-17-12) have the following CA legal AR15 style rifles on sale:

Bushmaster XT-15 Patrolman's Carbine = $999.98
Del-Ton Echo 316 = $729.98
S&W M&P-15 Sport = $669.98

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