Please review - No Guns Response Letter


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ZeSpectre
May 5, 2012, 10:57 AM
I recently ran into two new local businesses sporting "No Guns" signs.

What follows is the text of the letter I'm composing to those businesses. C'mon folks, rip it up. I typed this on the fly and I'm tired today so I need the proof-reading help this morning :D

-------------------------letter body--------------------------------

As I recently approached your business I noted prominently posted “No Guns Allowed” signs.

While such postings may seem like a good idea, I would like to take this opportunity to point out a few things that you may not have considered when enacting this policy.

First and foremost; this sort of sign is aimed directly at the people you need not be worried about. It is exceedingly unlikely that anyone law-abiding enough to obey your sign would ever have been a problem in the first place. On the other hand, criminals (by definition) are going to ignore laws and regulations and do as they please. It is also quite possible that a criminal might prefer your business since you have announced that it is a "soft target".

The vast majority of the people your signs ban have had background checks and been vetted by the state. They are literally "State Certified Good Guys". It makes no logical sense when a business implements a policy that welcomes any unknown “John Smith” off the street while at the same time denying entry to someone who has passed a thorough background investigation.

Additionally, the portion of the population who are rejected by your policy are at least mildly affluent as demonstrated by their ability to own several hundred, to several thousand, dollars of precision machined equipment and accessories. Perhaps it is not the best financial decision to bar these people and their money from your business.

In closing I once again ask that you please reconsider your policy and remove the “no guns” signs from your place of business because until this policy is changed I, as a law abiding and peaceful citizen, will have to respect your decision and take my business elsewhere.

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hso
May 5, 2012, 11:25 AM
Let's trim it down a bit so they read it and get the message in the least amount of time.

As I recently approached your business I noted prominently posted “No Guns Allowed” signs.

While such postings may seem like a good idea, I would like to take this opportunity to point out a few things that you may not have considered when enacting this policy.

First and foremost; this sort of sign is aimed directly at the people you need not be worried about. It is exceedingly unlikely that anyone law-abiding enough to obey your sign would ever have been a problem in the first place. On the other hand, criminals (by definition) are going to ignore laws and regulations and do as they please. It is also quite possible that a criminal might prefer your business since you have announced that it is a "soft target".

The vast majority of the potential customers your signs ban have had background checks and been vetted by the state to have no history of drug use, domestic violence, or criminal behavior. They are literally "State Certified Good Guys". It makes no logical sense when a business implements a policy that welcomes any unknown “John Smith” off the street while at the same time denying entry to a potential customer who has passed a thorough background investigation.

Additionally, tThe portion of the population customerswho are rejected by your policy are at least mildly affluent as demonstrated by their ability to own several hundred, to several thousand, dollars of precision machined equipment and accessories. Perhaps it is not the best financial decision to bar these people and their money from your business.

In closing I once again ask that you please reconsider your policy and remove the “no guns” signs from your place of business because it serves no useful purpose and it excludes potential customers that have proof of a non-violent crime free historyu. Until this policy is changed I, as a law abiding and peaceful citizen, will have to respect your decision and take my business elsewhereto your competetors.

bikerdoc
May 5, 2012, 12:21 PM
PS; I spent X amount of dollars at your competitors

beatledog7
May 5, 2012, 02:44 PM
How about:

Dear (merchant name),

On (date) I was about to enter your establishment until I saw your "no guns" sign. Instead, I made my purchase at (competitor's name), and I will continue to do so.

(competitor's name) recognizes two important facts which you do not: 1) Concealed handgun permit holders are vetted by Federal and State officials as non-criminals. We obey the law and are no danger to you or your customers. 2) Actual criminals look for signs like yours, preferring to rob establishments that display them.

Have a nice day.

beatledog7
May 5, 2012, 05:12 PM
That Jared Loughner was vetted proves the obvious: no vetting process is perfect.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of people who pass NICS and whatever state check is required can be counted on to routinely heed "no guns" signs; we are respectful, law-abiding types who pose no danger to anyone. To a merchant with a no guns policy, we are lost sales.

ZeSpectre
May 5, 2012, 10:33 PM
Just FYI, this sort of letter always includes a photocopy of receipts from the places where I DID do business to illustrate business lost.

HSO... sheesh I was being a bit...wordy, now wasn't I <grin>.

quietman
May 7, 2012, 04:09 PM
I wouldn't strike the entire first paragraph, But I would move it to the end as a conclusion to the rest of the letter.
As I recently approached your business I noted prominently posted “No Guns Allowed” signs.

While such postings may seem like a good idea, I would like to take this opportunity to point out a few things that you may not have considered when enacting this policy.

The potential customers your signs ban have passed background checks and been vetted by the state to have no history of drug use, domestic violence, or criminal behavior. They are literally "State Certified Good Guys". It makes no sense when a business implements a policy that welcomes any unknown “John Smith” off the street while at the same time denying entry to a potential customer who has passed a thorough background investigation.

The customers who are rejected by your policy are at least mildly affluent as demonstrated by their ability to own several hundred, to several thousand, dollars of precision machined equipment and accessories. Perhaps it is not the best financial decision to bar these people and their money from your business.

This sort of sign is aimed directly at the people you need not be worried about and this policy is poorly thought out. Anyone law-abiding enough to obey your sign would not pose a risk in the first place. On the other hand, criminals (by definition) are going to ignore laws, regulations, and your sign while doing as they please.

So, until this policy is changed I, as a law abiding and peaceful citizen, will have to respect your decision and take my business to your competitors.

In closing, it is important that you are aware you have announced your business as a "soft target" to criminals, making it less safe for the general public. You have also publicly stated a policy offensive to those who have invested time and money to go through the entire process of becoming certified.

I'm fighting a bug, and my brains a little fuzzy, so I hope what I wrote makes sense.

hso
May 8, 2012, 10:51 AM
ZeSpectre,

I have the same problem so I write, edit once and then hand off to someone else to comment before finalizing anything "official".:cool:

mgmorden
May 8, 2012, 01:26 PM
I like hso's changes - businesses suffer from TLDR too (Too Long - Didn't Read). Keeping your message concise improves the chances that someone will see it.

Also, I'd take out of the wording of "State Certified Good Guys". For one it reinforces the black and white "good guy"/"bad guy" mantra that is common but naive in our hobby, but also because it's not an appropriate tone for a professional letter. "Good guys" is something 8 year olds cheer for on a western. It's not professional speak to a business.

Other than that, it sounds pretty good, and gets the message across.

basicblur
May 8, 2012, 02:21 PM
Mebbe instead of just letting 'em know you are not going to frequent their business, toss in family and like-minded CHP holders?

If they persist, be sure to contact VCDL so they can put them on their Gun Owner Unfriendly list (http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html).

Don't know exactly how you'd do so, but it would be nice if the businesses knew there was such a list and they stand to be on it?
This would let them know that it's more than just your business they would be losing.

BTW-I see the link to the NRA Natinal Orgazinizations with Anti-gun Policies is now here (http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fact-sheets/2010/national-organizations-with-anti-gun-po.aspx?s=&st=&ps=).

Jeremiah10:23
May 8, 2012, 03:23 PM
Here is a website I read about somewhere (I read too much). It is a neat idea but looks to be in toddler stage right now.

http://friendorfoe.us/

Black Duck Charlie
July 1, 2012, 12:18 AM
How about you trim that down even more;

As I recently approached your business I noted prominently posted “No Guns Allowed” signs.

While such postings may seem like a good idea, I would like to take this opportunity to point out a few things that you may not have considered when enacting this policy.

The potential customers your signs ban have passed background checks and been vetted by the state to have no history of drug use, domestic violence, or criminal behavior. They are literally "State Certified Good Guys". It makes no sense when a business implements a policy that welcomes any unknown “John Smith” off the street while at the same time denying entry to a potential customer who has passed a thorough background investigation.

*******The customers who are rejected by your policy are at least mildly affluent as demonstrated by their ability to own several hundred, to several thousand, dollars of precision machined equipment and accessories. Perhaps it is not the best financial decision to bar these people and their money from your business.*********

This sort of sign is aimed directly at the people you need not be worried about and this policy is poorly thought out. Anyone law-abiding enough to obey your sign would not pose a risk in the first place. On the other hand, criminals (by definition) are going to ignore laws, regulations, and your sign while doing as they please.

So, until this policy is changed I, as a law abiding and peaceful citizen, will have to respect your decision and take my business to your competitors.

In closing, it is important that you are aware you have announced your business as a "soft target" to criminals, making it less safe for the general public. You have also publicly stated a policy offensive to those who have invested time and money to go through the entire process of becoming certified.

I happen to own a couple of thousand dollars' worth of that "precision machined equipment and accessories" -- yet I am anything but "mildly affluent". In fact, I am not anywhere close to being affluent. Hell, I ain't even as high as the so-called "middle class".
You do NOT have to be even "mildly affluent" to have guns.

Harvey
July 1, 2012, 09:12 AM
I happen to own a couple of thousand dollars' worth of that "precision machined equipment and accessories" -- yet I am anything but "mildly affluent". In fact, I am not anywhere close to being affluent. Hell, I ain't even as high as the so-called "middle class".
You do NOT have to be even "mildly affluent" to have guns.
If you ask me, having too many precision machined pieces of equipment and accessories is often cause for not being mildly affluent. Myself included.

MedWheeler
July 1, 2012, 01:17 PM
Beatledog7 writes:

That Jared Loughner was vetted proves the obvious: no vetting process is perfect.

Loughner is an exception to what is typically a rule. It's doubtful he would have chosen not to carry out his attack had he suddenly spotted a "no guns" sign posted at the venue.

Kevin Rohrer
July 1, 2012, 09:19 PM
I'd keep it simple. Tell him you support businesses that abide by the US Consitution, such as X & Y. Your No Firearms sign says otherwise, so you, your family, your friends, and all other supporters of the 2nd Amendment will not be doing business w/ you until the signs are gone.

Jaymo
July 1, 2012, 10:18 PM
Who's Jared Loughner?

Arp32
July 1, 2012, 10:21 PM
The nutjob Tucson shooter

ZeSpectre
July 2, 2012, 06:40 PM
Update, one business (a mom n pop place) pulled the sign. No word from the "corporate entity".

I'll take 1 for 2.

Bobson
July 2, 2012, 07:02 PM
Update, one business (a mom n pop place) pulled the sign. No word from the "corporate entity".

I'll take 1 for 2.
Is that after you sent a letter? If you mentioned having sent the letters out, I missed it.

blaisenguns
July 2, 2012, 09:28 PM
You might add that they neither have the authority or the ability to enforce this (at least in my state), and many ccw holders will likely just ignore the sign anyway.

Bobson
July 2, 2012, 10:17 PM
You might add that they neither have the authority or the ability to enforce this (at least in my state)
In many states, they do, including in Arizona.

...and many ccw holders will likely just ignore the sign anyway.
It would be foolish (at best) to include this, since it would only contradict the entire point of the letter; which is that CCW holders are, by and large, law-abiding-citizens.

SleazyRider
July 2, 2012, 10:27 PM
I like it, ZeSpectre, in its original form. Nice job!

Ryanxia
July 3, 2012, 12:33 PM
Dear (merchant name),

On (date) I was about to enter your establishment until I saw your "no guns" sign. Instead, I made my purchase at (competitor's name), and I will continue to do so.

(competitor's name) recognizes two important facts which you do not: 1) Concealed handgun permit holders are vetted by Federal and State officials as non-criminals. We obey the law and are no danger to you or your customers. 2) Actual criminals look for signs like yours, preferring to rob establishments that display them.

Have a nice day.

I like this one. Short, simple and I like #2. This plus photocopied receipt seems like a win template to me.

Deltaboy
July 3, 2012, 01:43 PM
I like HSO edited version !

das_dude
July 3, 2012, 03:46 PM
Fist off, the people that post such signs are Liberal Facists! All the lefties in this country know that people who have permits to carry ARE law abiding people. If they weren't they wouldn't have bothered to get a permit in the first place. The signs they post like "no firearms allowed" is there way of saying, "I do not want your business!" So, the way I look at, unless you have too, don't give it to them, and let everyone you know who carries or supperts our right to bare arms, about this business. Hopefully, they will avoid them.

loadedround
July 4, 2012, 04:23 PM
HSO, I too, as others have stated, like your condensed, edited version. You most have been one of my English teachers in your past life. :)

Skribs
July 5, 2012, 01:28 PM
Personally, I like Beatledog's version, but HSO's edit is really good. I've never actually seen a no-guns sign, so I haven't had the opportunity to write one of these letters.

Scott Farkus
July 5, 2012, 08:43 PM
In my state, Texas, the Penal Code specifies the exact wording of a written notice that must be posted in order for a business to prohibit concealed carry on its premises. Ironically enough, it's Penal Code section 30.06, so we refer to them as "30-06 signs". No joke.

Anyway, what it boils down to is that "gun buster" or "No Guns Allowed" signs mean absolutely nothing in Texas. With certain specified exceptions for things like bars and courthouses, the only thing that matters as far as signage is the 30.06. If it's not there in the EXACT form the law specifies, you have not been given notice and you may legally carry concealed, at least unless and until oral notice is given, and there are specific statutes about that also.

I don't know what state you're in, but if yours has a similarly specified sign in your statutes, and a business does not post it, you are probably good to go and I would strongly recommend you refrain from pointing it out to the business owner. You are not responsible for educating him on the law, and if you do, he's liable to put up a legal sign, and then you're really screwed (and that's when you write your letter). Or, you might also consider that he does in fact know what he's doing and he puts up the "gunbuster" knowing full well that he's still allowing concealed carry but he's falsely appeasing the anti's at the same time - the best of both worlds.

Just food for thought. Your state may recognize "gunbusters" or whatever, so this obviously wouldn't apply.

2DREZQ
July 19, 2012, 04:41 AM
Pizza Hut has the gun-buster signs in Wisconsin-not in North Dakota. I am not certain on this point, but I believe ND state law preempts such prohibitions. Don't risk anything on my say-so, though. I've never seen sucha sign in ND in 20+ years of CC.
Applebee's also has a no-guns policy, but interestingly enough, I've been to a few Applebee's here (WI) that had no such sign in the door. I suspect it might be up to the Franchisee in some cases?

hso
July 19, 2012, 09:35 AM
No sign on either chains in my part of TN.

RX-178
July 20, 2012, 12:13 AM
I don't know if what I'm about to add is strictly on topic or not, but here's one of my experiences in dealing with a no-gun sign. Because of the way they handled it when I asked, I'm not going to out the establishment or location, but I am going to tell you what they told me.

What the establishment owner told me was that he deliberately chose to use a non-binding sign (a simple gunbuster silhouette sign, in the state of Texas, with no 30.06 anywhere on the premises), because having a concealed carry permit himself, he expected that anyone with a Texas CHL would have passed the written test, including the informtion regarding the 30.06 sign.

His logic was, that legal CHL holders, being knowledgeable on carry laws, would see that the sign is non-binding, and carry in his establishment anyway. People without CHLs, being ignorant of Texas law, would see the sign and feel more comfortable because of the little bit of security theater.

I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree here, just saying what I was told when I asked.

Mousegun
July 20, 2012, 05:08 PM
I like it a originally written. The more you explain to the better it is because when a sign is posted, a lot of people involved in posting it need some explaining.

BamAlmighty
July 22, 2012, 03:00 PM
"criminals don't respect laws, why would you think they will respect a sign?"

TrickyDick
July 23, 2012, 10:46 AM
My wife works at an Applebees here in Maine; one day someone open carried, and her coworkers were tweeking, until she let them know that it was completely legal to open carry in our state...

IllHunter
July 25, 2012, 12:21 PM
Use "good citizen" instead of "good guys". More mature sounding and reeks of responsibility and the Constitution.

Happyjim
July 25, 2012, 02:42 PM
There is a small bar a friend and I went into in a small town in Mn that had an illegal (according to Mn law) No guns allowed sign (not correctly worded and size). We asked the owner about the sign as the person told us they thought they were required to have the sign. We explained what the law says in Mn and that it is the perogative of the owner as to whether or not they want to restrict law abiding citizens or not. So, sometimes business owners may just not know what the law says.

ps: I have not be back there to see if it is gone or not.

Tcruse
July 25, 2012, 03:10 PM
There is an issue of liability. When you remove the ability of the customer to protect them selves in your business are are assuming moew of the role of protecting them. Should you fail to protect them then the business should be held accountable.

Twmaster
July 26, 2012, 10:42 PM
There is an issue of liability. When you remove the ability of the customer to protect them selves in your business are are assuming moew of the role of protecting them. Should you fail to protect them then the business should be held accountable.
Care to cite case law on that?

Jimineer
July 29, 2012, 09:00 PM
I like my local cigar shop. Inside, sign behind counter in big letters "We don't call 911" with a nice picture of arevolver as a backdrop on the sign. No signs on doors.

Lost Sheep
August 12, 2012, 03:01 PM
Thomas Paine "Thoughts On Defensive War" 1775:

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

A "no guns allowed" sign says to potential robbers that everyone in (and leaving) your establishment is easy prey.

Lost Sheep

Yelovitz_503
August 12, 2012, 03:20 PM
I like your version, but I think hso gets to the point a bit faster. Honestly I like both, it's up to you.

Maybe add something about how you are able to carry into banks, post offices, airports (until the checkpoint), and movie theaters. Why does their business feel that it's somehow at a greater security risk than these places? This is something I wonder but it may prove too antagonistic to get your point across effectively.

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