Would you be interested in this type of product?


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TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 02:07 PM
Thank you everyone for your feedback. We appreciate everyone's honest opinion.

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The_Next_Generation
May 5, 2012, 03:25 PM
What exactly does it do and how does it do it? A promo video would be great :)

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
May 5, 2012, 03:33 PM
Weighs the rifle down to substantially reduce recoil. He has videos posted in a couple threads. I think it's called Project Titan .308 or something like that.

The_Next_Generation
May 5, 2012, 03:35 PM
Yep, just saw his other thread. Still, looks like a cool project!

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 03:41 PM
My level of interest would be based on the actual price point of the product.

TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 03:47 PM
We have not gotten that far yet.

I will say this is constructed entirely of USA steel, its not like a plastic kit one might buy for their ruger 22.

We are just trying to gather some preliminary data (cost factor aside) if anyone out there would be interested in something like this; whether performance based, cosmetic based, or a combo of both. Or any other reason (tactical blunt instrument? lol jk)

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 03:54 PM
We have not gotten that far yet.

I will say this is constructed entirely of USA steel, its not like a plastic kit one might buy for their ruger 22.

We are just trying to gather some preliminary data (cost factor aside) if anyone out there would be interested in something like this; whether performance based, cosmetic based, or a combo of both. Or any other reason (tactical blunt instrument? lol jk)

Not a problem - that makes complete sense. One thing I'd like to mention - It's not a good business decision to limit yourself to a very small market by making the following statement

Please understand this is not a battlefield weapon and is a product for a user who shoots from a bench, sitting, prone, or other non-mobile position.

- what you design and use it for has little bearing on what uses the end user may find for the product. As I mentioned in the other thread, it has great potential for battlefield or defensive uses (especially the ported/muzzle brake model) as well as your stated benchrest purposes. Limiting yourself from the outset could potentially doom the product to fail before you even get it to market - when marketing a product, you want the largest possible target demographic.

Keep in mind, I'm not knocking you or your product, just offering my point of view from a business perspective.

TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 04:04 PM
Fair enough - however we made a decision that this would be marketed to a civilian user base if we ever got around to that part. If someone wishes to contact us for an outside of civilian purpose its not like the door isn't open for discussion.

So many companies have LEO/Military only sales, we felt we wanted to do the opposite, in a sense.

We do not want to give the impression that this was tested in battlefield conditions, as quite frankly it was not and until otherwise, never will be. We felt it important to make it very clear this product was for recreational use so no one feels jaded, cheated or disappointed if using it outside of this bubble.

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 04:15 PM
Fair enough - however we made a decision that this would be marketed to a civilian user base if we ever got around to that part. If someone wishes to contact us for an outside of civilian purpose its not like the door isn't open for discussion.

So many companies have LEO/Military only sales, we felt we wanted to do the opposite, in a sense.

We do not want to give the impression that this was tested in battlefield conditions, as quite frankly it was not and until otherwise, never will be. We felt it important to make it very clear this product was for recreational use so no one feels jaded, cheated or disappointed if using it outside of this bubble.
Fully automatic weapons aren't illegal for civilians to own and use (in most states) with the proper paperwork. Many ranges rent fully automatic weapons to civilians for recreational shooting (perhaps you might discuss testing your prototype at one of these ranges if you have one local so you can see the obvious benefits provided).

I'm just saying that instead of saying "this product is for this use only" why not say "This product hasn't been tested in battlefield conditions, and performance under such conditions is not implied" or something along those lines - that way you're not closing any doors in order to avoid someone thinking it may be something it's not.

- again, not trying to argue, really just trying to help.

TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 04:19 PM
Noted, I'll bring this up.

JustinJ
May 5, 2012, 04:37 PM
I see no practical use for this unless there is some sort of competition that would allow it. I can't imagine anybody would spend what it would cost just to plink at the range.

TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 06:07 PM
You mean like the people who I see with fully loaded military rifles that easily surpass $4,000 mark with equipment that will never see a minute of combat ever? Or the exploding "Zombie" market?

As far as competitions go, almost every type out there has an open class.

Edit: Just for clarification I do not expect any of the poll numbers to show any great amount of "Yes" answers. Its some data we would like none the less. We realized we would be marketing to a select niche field of clients; primarily those who like to collect functional rare custom pieces.

We still want to avoid the Wilson Combat/Nighthawk effect. (I hope someone gets the reference lol)

ApacheCoTodd
May 5, 2012, 07:34 PM
I had to go no on my interest in buying or owning.... For now.

Now, that said, I do find the project interesting, I'm just not sure it's a marketable concept right now.

I didn't see it, but have you quantified the advantage over the same basic weapons system where all things are equal?

Or another way to look at it - without underselling the idea - tell me in three sentences or less, why I should stop walking past your booth at say, the SHOT show, and take some time to look into it further.

TITAN308
May 5, 2012, 09:21 PM
.308 fires like a .22

Hows that?

ApacheCoTodd
May 6, 2012, 12:33 AM
Cool enough, I'm off to re-read. Thanks.

TITAN308
May 6, 2012, 01:07 PM
We plan to record a demo of my 5 year old daughter firing the weapon with ease. Not sure if it gets any better than that.

RhinoDefense
May 6, 2012, 01:19 PM
I can't think of any reason to own a ~30-40 pound AR type rifle. I don't have any interest in this product nor foresee having any interest in the future.

ApacheCoTodd
May 6, 2012, 01:21 PM
That would be outstanding though getting her to fire a comparable non-titaned-up .308 would be mean, but maybe someone else firing a comparison rifle before and after to highlight the effect...

dprice3844444
May 6, 2012, 01:27 PM
is this a big heat sink like http://www.teludynetech.com/home-hunting/ ????????????

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 6, 2012, 01:45 PM
Looks cool but not good for zombies or for when North Korea invades, I'll pass.


:D Looks nice but not something I would be really interested in, haven't been bitten by the bench bug yet.

TITAN308
May 6, 2012, 09:15 PM
Yes, if I had to pick an existing market - it would be those who enjoy bench. You should try it out, its very addicting. :)

ApacheCoTodd
May 6, 2012, 10:05 PM
What's the weight on the production version gonna be?

mljdeckard
May 6, 2012, 10:15 PM
I am in the middle of a build on the DPMS lr-308 lower. The .308 you describe is interesting, but I plan on building another upper in .260 Rem that will be along these lines, but I am planning on a Krieger barrel and a Badger Ordnance forend. And a Magpul PRS stock.

TITAN308
May 6, 2012, 10:34 PM
What's the weight on the production version gonna be?

Should be around the same. We have some fine tuning to do with the shroud, but these are mainly just cosmetic.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 7, 2012, 12:42 AM
Yes, if I had to pick an existing market - it would be those who enjoy bench. You should try it out, its very addicting.

I will whenever I get my bolt action rifle fixed. Probably won't happen for awhile cause I'm not too bothered to do that.

TonyAngel
May 7, 2012, 01:47 AM
I voted "no," because I see no practical use for it. At the stated weight, it's too heavy to be readily mobile. Target acquisition would be impossible in many situations.

As stated, the only thing it would be good for is putting on a bench to shoot at a single target and shooting groups; but to what end? If you are serious enough about benchrest to sink that much money (I'm guessing that this isn't going to be cheap) into your rig to gain the utmost in accuracy, it surely isn't going to be on a semi-auto.

I know that semi-autos have come a long way in the accuracy department, but in the benchrest game, where the difference among first, second and third place is measured in 1/1000ths of an inch, a semi just isn't going to cut it.

As far as shooting a .308 goes, I've never had any problem shooting one. I'm not a big guy. I go around 5'2" tall at about 150lbs. With proper recoil management techniques, staying on target isn't a problem at all. In fact, a typical range session usually consists of firing about 100 rounds and it's not been a problem. I don't know of anyone that would make the investment in a rig like yours so that their 8 year old can shoot a .308.

I do admit, that I might be interested, just for the novelty of it, if the pricing was something in the neighborhood of the cost of a good stock for a bolt gun. Say $500 or so.

C'Thulhu
May 7, 2012, 03:05 AM
I would, because I have enough disposable income, and DAMN that thing looks cool/fun. Might even have a practical use for it hunting.

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 07:53 AM
Tony I am not sure why you believe its a single target gun. Quite regularly I spread a box of clays out down range and I promise you I will shoot them faster than any bolt gun can.

JustinJ
May 7, 2012, 09:48 AM
You mean like the people who I see with fully loaded military rifles that easily surpass $4,000 mark with equipment that will never see a minute of combat ever? Or the exploding "Zombie" market?

I don't know where you shoot but i rarely see $4K of AR/gear combos by casual shooters. Many who do have high dollar setups may also compete or use them in LE or contract work. Even still such rifles do appeal to many by the "cool" factor of having military guns and those they see in movies. Not to say nobody will find your contraption to be cool but it certainly won't have widespread appeal. ARs set up with accessories also retain value well.

Not to mention there are already plenty of ARs out there with exceptional accuracy that can rival bolt guns and weigh a lot less.

Nushif
May 7, 2012, 10:03 AM
You mean like the people who I see with fully loaded military rifles that easily surpass $4,000 mark with equipment that will never see a minute of combat ever? Or the exploding "Zombie" market?

Way to get your product out there. I don't appreciate it much either, but there is a difference in being derogatory and simply not commenting on it.

Unless you like catering to slow shooters who spend more time eating their lunch at the range than shooting and can't get in the prone anymore because they're so far past their time.

See what I did there?

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 10:59 AM
Nushif I'm not sure why you take so much offense. Someone said they don't see the point in something and I made a valid comparison.

It was not my intent to offend anyone.

I don't know where you shoot but i rarely see $4K of AR/gear combos by casual shooters.

Between optics, magnifiers, stocks, rails, etc etc its not hard to take a $1,200 rifle and push it past that mark. $4,000 may have been the top end of the spectrum, but I thought it was a valid comparison and rebuttle none the less.

Not to mention there are already plenty of ARs out there with exceptional accuracy that can rival bolt guns and weigh a lot less.

Don't think we ever disputed this fact. However our system will be able to do all this and do it faster. Less torque, less movement, less heat, faster follow-up acquisition. And something quite important to people, when you pull it out of the crate it doesn't look like a clone that everyone else at the range has. To say you don't enjoy some eye candy would be a bit untruthful yea? :) Its not a one piece puzzle, but multiple pieces.

Nushif
May 7, 2012, 11:11 AM
You may not, but as a company it's bad JuJu to badmouth anyone specifically who might buy your stuff. 8)

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 11:14 AM
I was not bad mouthing anyone. I have plenty of high dollar rifles that will not see any action (basically plinking at the range or the safe).

We all like to entertain the SHTF ideas and want to be well prepared. :)

Edit: You think I have no entertained the idea of painting the rifle zombie green and some zombie stickers? I'll be a millionaire lol

I could even attach a chain saw on both sides and rig a harness that lets you swing it around at waist height!

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 12:39 PM
I do admit, that I might be interested, just for the novelty of it, if the pricing was something in the neighborhood of the cost of a good stock for a bolt gun. Say $500 or so.

$500 does not even get you a bone-stock AR15, much less a .308 AR10. I understand wanting it to be reasonably priced, but lets not insult Titan here. There is reasonable, and then there is trying to steal a product that he has had to put a lot of work into. I said that for the moment I am uninterested, but that is based solely on the fact that I see this gun going around the $2250 mark (maybe more, maybe less), but that is wayyy more than a college student can afford :o

It has been fun watching this project come along, Titan, and I hope to someday get a chance to own one or at least take one for a test drive ;)

TonyAngel
May 7, 2012, 12:58 PM
Tony I am not sure why you believe its a single target gun. Quite regularly I spread a box of clays out down range and I promise you I will shoot them faster than any bolt gun can.

Titan, I suppose you're right. I just didn't envision using a rig like yours to shoot at clay pigeons that are all lined up across a back stop. Quite frankly, I use my 10/22 to do that. What I envisioned was shooting at clay pigeons (or some other targets) at 500 yards or so, in varying positions. I just see finding your natural point of aim to be a real PITA with a rig as heavy as yours.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's a cool rig. I just don't think it's practical. Since you made the reference to the $4000 mark, is that to say what a complete rifle is going to run?

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 01:07 PM
Its heavy, but no more heavy than rifles already in use in the world. You can aim and adjust quite easily. This is more a function of your bi-pod (or other support method) than the rifle itself.

Even with all the weight, the bi-pod is you pivoting point, it takes little effort to shoulder and make adjustments in all directions. The farther out the target, the smaller your adjustments become.

I'd say the only downfall is probably would not be very efficient with a canting support. I don't use any bi-pods that cant (roll left or or right), but I even I can see that being troublesome when you move the weight off to one side and out from directly under your support.

Since you made the reference to the $4000 mark, is that to say what a complete rifle is going to run?

That was just a random number. As I stated we have not even sat down and compiled what it cost to manufacturer, assemble, and ship such a thing yet.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 7, 2012, 01:19 PM
$500 does not even get you a bone-stock AR15, much less a .308 AR10. I understand wanting it to be reasonably priced, but lets not insult Titan here. There is reasonable, and then there is trying to steal a product that he has had to put a lot of work into. I said that for the moment I am uninterested, but that is based solely on the fact that I see this gun going around the $2250 mark (maybe more, maybe less), but that is wayyy more than a college student can afford

He was talking about the price for just the stock itself, not the rifle.

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 01:43 PM
Just want to re-enforce that we have not talked price yet at all. There are so many variables that will come into play.

Stand alone system? Complete Upper system? Complete rifle system? DPMS components? MA-TEN components? Chrome bits? Non-chrome bits?

There could be a wide range of selections depending on the users budget.

But once again, we have not even jotted down anything on paper even in jest.

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 02:47 PM
Ok we got some good data from the interwebs. Thanks to all who took the time to answer honestly. :)

Its pretty much the same 1 out of 10 everywhere we posted the poll, which was about what we expected.

Thanks once again.

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 04:28 PM
He was talking about the price for just the stock itself, not the rifle.

I don't believe he was. He is saying that he would be interested in the rifle if it only cost what it would cost him to get a more precision stock for a rifle that he already owned.

But looking back through the parts list, my $2250 guess was well short of what I am now expecting these to go for when (if) they start being sold.

Kush
May 7, 2012, 04:31 PM
I don't see the purpose of something like this when compared to something like the Teludyne Straight Jacket that weighs less(so much less that they can market it to the tactical crowd, or at least try) and is also usable on guns other than ar10s. Does this have any advantages over the Teludyne Straight Jacket?

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 04:51 PM
Kush its being developed on an AR-10, retrofitting for AR-15s is easy, platforms outside of ARs will require a bit more work, but the essence of it all will be the same.

I think people for some reason keep ignoring the fact that is not a mobile weapon. You would not be running around at the ready with this (unless you are the hulk, in which case your fist will do just as much damage). Its a system that you deploy once you arrive at the proper location. The same as a Barret for example. And while there is a lack of 50BMG options in the AR platform world, we hopefully can move to testing on a .338 AR mid-year.

Edit: And just another clarification that crossed my mind based on a recent PM; the shroud is universal to any caliber AR platform weapon, the front plate being backwards compatible from .308 and only needing modification on bigger calibers.

Anything (anything!) chambered on the AR platform can be used. Also the shroud can be removed and added to any AR that accepts a free float. The only permanent fixture to use the system is a modified barrel nut.

You are not sacrificing a rifle, you are merely adding a tool to the toolbox. Either I am not making this clear in my various postings/threads or its being over looked for some reason.

TonyAngel
May 7, 2012, 06:50 PM
allaroundhunter, I don't think that what I said was all that vague. FIVETWOSEVEN got it.

If you go back to the first post in this thread, there is mention of Option #1, which is for the stand alone unit that would attach to any AR-15 type rifle.

From what I'm seeing, the product under discussion here is essentially a freefloat forearm that just happens to weigh over 30lbs. Just because it looks really cool doesn't make it more than it is. No offense intended to the designer, but I could get a similar result by planting the feet of a bipod into 15lb blocks of concrete and have the added advantage of being able to use a canting bipod and being able to readily remove it when I wanted to.

Still, the rig looks nice and it seems that there is a good bit of quality material and machine work in the product. Like I said, I think it's certainly worth the cost of a good stock for a bolt gun, or to put it more into perspective, relative to the cost of LaRue rails, $500 seems like a price point where I might be interested, just for the novelty of it.

I figure, what the heck. I'll make my son carry it the 200 or so yards from the parking area to the shooting benches.

What would really set this product aside from other alternatives (like concrete blocks) is the cooling option. This does, however, make me wonder how they're going to accomplish that.

I mean, we take an AR platform rifle and freefloat the barrel to gain the utmost in consistency which leads to accuracy. How are they going to cool the barrel without attaching something to the barrel. To have a cooling system that will literally keep the barrel cool, they're going to have to have something contacting the barrel. Maybe copper coil wrapped around the barrel with water pumped through it.

Now, the barrel is no longer free floated and the impulses from the pump (assuming that there is a pump) are going to have some sort of impact on accuracy.

The next thing to consider is all of your shots being cold bore shots. Assuming that they can devise a cooling system that has no negative impact on accuracy, how is the barrel staying cool going to affect the accuracy and longevity of the barrel.

I know that I'm seeing (on my rifle and others) about a 5000 round barrel life for rifles that are shot a lot. Meaning that they are shot warm. Since metal expands when it heats up, I'm guessing that the bore of a barrel opens up a bit when it's warm so there isn't as much friction when the bullet travels down the bore of a warm barrel.

So...if the barrel stays cold and all of the shots are essentially cold bore shots, what effect is this going to have on the life of the barrel? I'm really asking, because I don't know. On the other hand, this point may be a wash. If what I suspect is true (that a cold barrel will wear faster), keeping the barrel cool may extend throat life.

Please, take what I'm saying for what it's worth, which is probably nothing. It's nothing more than discussion and an expression of opinion.

I'll tell you this. If I saw a guy out at the range, shooting this thing, I'd sure as heck want a crack at it. In fact, a bunch of cracks.

Like I said, I think it looks cool and certainly, at the least, has a novelty factor. I only question its practicality.

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 06:58 PM
From what I'm seeing, the product under discussion here is essentially a freefloat forearm that just happens to weigh over 30lbs. Just because it looks really cool doesn't make it more than it is.

I think I need to point something out here.

From the OP

This system comes with the following; (1) Titan Shroud, (1) Free Float Barrel Nut, (1) Titan Rear Locking Block, (1) Titan Front Plate, (1) Titan Rear Plate, and if applicable; (1) Titan Muzzle Brake Locking Block - all components on a fully loaded model come out to 15.5lbs.

"Fully Loaded Model" means a muzzle brake equipped and full sized shroud. A few more pounds is shaved off if you operate a non muzzle brake model. A little more on a sub 24" setup. You get the idea.

The 29.5lb+ you keep referring to is our entire rifle (32lb and some change with equipment) which is 27" total in barrel length with the muzzle brake guide/locking block.

Depending on your equipment load out, you could come in under 20lbs total.

precisionrifle14
May 7, 2012, 07:48 PM
This project is really interesting. I can imagine people bug-eyed at the range when that beast gets pulled out of the car. ;)

TITAN308
May 7, 2012, 07:59 PM
Until I build a carry crate for it I usually carry it bushwacker style, barrel on the shoulder lol

St8LineGunsmith
May 7, 2012, 08:41 PM
I voted no
I see no practical use for it

bergmen
May 8, 2012, 12:52 AM
I voted no.

Please understand this is not a battlefield weapon and is a product for a user who shoots from a bench, sitting, prone, or other non-mobile position.

Not a shooter that fits this model.

Dan

defconskylude
May 9, 2012, 03:30 PM
make this as a dress up kit for the 10/22 in aluminum

JustinJ
May 9, 2012, 08:03 PM
Between optics, magnifiers, stocks, rails, etc etc its not hard to take a $1,200 rifle and push it past that mark. $4,000 may have been the top end of the spectrum, but I thought it was a valid comparison and rebuttle none the less.

I agree but much cheaper setups are far more common at the ranges where i shoot.

Quote:
Not to mention there are already plenty of ARs out there with exceptional accuracy that can rival bolt guns and weigh a lot less.

Don't think we ever disputed this fact. However our system will be able to do all this and do it faster. Less torque, less movement, less heat, faster follow-up acquisition. And something quite important to people, when you pull it out of the crate it doesn't look like a clone that everyone else at the range has. To say you don't enjoy some eye candy would be a bit untruthful yea? Its not a one piece puzzle, but multiple pieces.

Then why even mention bolt gun accuracy? It seems to imply matching bolt gun accuracy is some new or rare feat. No offense, but i woudln't call this thing eye candy. There are plenty of rare guns that most have never seen for a lot less.

I'm not familiar with the rules of competetive bench rest shooting. Are times factored so that there is even a benefit to faster followup shots?

TITAN308
May 9, 2012, 09:10 PM
There are plenty of rare guns that most have never seen for a lot less

Where are you formulating "for a lot less"? We have not even come close to discussing a MSRP. lol

Are times factored so that there is even a benefit to faster followup shots?

One of our final tests will involve two expert shooters, one with the Titan and the other with an equal caliber bolt action (box magazine allowed of course) and each shooter gets 20 cartridges.

This gives the Titan 19 in the mag and 1 in the chamber. This will give the average bolt action 5 in the mag and 1 in the chamber, then 14 in the hand (or some other external holder).

They shoot all 20 (range to be determined) cartridges and the results are a mixture of elapsed time and accuracy.

Hopefully the test will result in similar accuracy, but the Titan completing the task in a fraction of the time.

This is the plan at least. We shall see.

Clearly the bolt action will win hands down automatically in a few categories:

- weight
- component for component cost

But we never intended the Titan to be lugged around by hand for long distances. The best you could probably muster is carrying the broken down components in a backpack of sorts.

JustinJ
May 10, 2012, 04:09 PM
Where are you formulating "for a lot less"? We have not even come close to discussing a MSRP. lol

I was talking about your $4K AR reference which seemed to imply that is going to be in the same price range.

One of our final tests will involve two expert shooters, one with the Titan and the other with an equal caliber bolt action (box magazine allowed of course) and each shooter gets 20 cartridges.

Again, do faster follow up shots matter in open bench rest competitions?

TITAN308
May 10, 2012, 05:02 PM
I was talking about your $4K AR reference which seemed to imply that is going to be in the same price range.

Sorry my mistake, I read that completely wrong then. I still say it could go either way. A two hundred year old trinket thats 1" in size may be worth $50 but a 200 year old trinket that is 100" in size could be worth $5,000 - or vice versa.

Rarity alone doesn't dictate much, a lot comes down to design appeal and unique components.

Do you guys really still get excited about the same buttstock designs and hand guard designs getting regurgitated and marketed as "innovative" and "game changing" and "new"?

How to design a hand guard:

1. Shape aluminum into tube
2. Cut squares/circles/octogons into specific pattern
3. Market as Cutting Edge Innovation
4. Profit?

The most recent innovation in hand guards I've seen is a MBUS in the front built in. I think there was one recent where you could rotate the front part of it (canted sight view). Other than that it seems like competition for hand guards is who can assemble circles, triangles, shapes in the most uber fashion.

I think you get the idea. This industry sorely needs some unique products injected to keep it from going stale. Don't you love all the picture threads "Check out my AR-15!" and its the same black rifle with a Magpul CTR as the last 5 that were posted. This is not to say this is a problem consumer side, but from a manufacturer side. Sooner or later the market will implode and people will get sick of the same old stuff.

This is just my opinion - do not mistake this as me portraying fact.

Again, do faster follow up shots matter in open bench rest competitions?

Yes. Not always from a stopwatch aspect, but from an elements aspect.

Ideally you want to fire off all shots in the same setting as the first shot. Guess what could change randomly? Wind is one example.

If you research "rail gun" in the bench rest world you will see they try and shoot as fast as possible so that the initial adjustment is all that is needed. Having to stop and make adjustments constantly takes time away from the trigger.

But, just to solidify the point:

Go to any benchrest match and watch what lengths we go to keep barrels cool. Mini fans and alcohol soaked rags are used. Heat affects accuracy without question. The less internal stresses on the barrel and bedding the less heat effects accuracy IME. This is why benchrest matches are timed events. Shooting inside the allowed time is the challenge. It's about how you manage barrel heat and wind conditions.

With that said - its just a fun design.

Rail Driver
May 10, 2012, 05:16 PM
Rarity alone doesn't dictate much, a lot comes down to design appeal and unique components.

Do you guys really still get excited about the same buttstock designs and hand guard designs getting regurgitated and marketed as "innovative" and "game changing" and "new"?

How to design a hand guard:

1. Shape aluminum into tube
2. Cut squares/circles/octogons into specific pattern
3. Market as Cutting Edge Innovation
4. Profit?

The most recent innovation in hand guards I've seen is a MBUS in the front built in. I think there was one recent where you could rotate the front part of it (canted sight view). Other than that it seems like competition for hand guards is who can assemble circles, triangles, shapes in the most uber fashion.

I think you get the idea. This industry sorely needs some unique products injected to keep it from going stale. Don't you love all the picture threads "Check out my AR-15!" and its the same black rifle with a Magpul CTR as the last 5 that were posted. This is not to say this is a problem consumer side, but from a manufacturer side. Sooner or later the market will implode and people will get sick of the same old stuff.

You won't do that with top shelf prices considering today's economy and the direction it's headed. Economic downturns, recessions and depressions are not an environment conducive to growth in most industries unless you're a government contractor, and even then things can go sour. If you're interested in refreshing the market for firearms accessories, you want to reach as large a demographic as possible - your design already limits your demographic (to quote you) to "benchrest only" shooters - From a business standpoint that is a mistake because you don't have an established name in the industry. It's my observation that a completely new company attempting to break into a niche market with an unproven design is destined to be vaporware like so many other admittedly cool looking products with severely limited practicality such as yours - (your testing, while thorough, doesn't equate to a proven design in the benchrest competition world until somebody has won a title using your product). Being aware of the costs of materials and the amount of time it must have taken to design and fabricate your product, you're going to be looking at a top-shelf price point, and due to the economy that is where you're going to lose more of the market that you may have had at a lower price point (now before you repeat yourself again, I know you haven't mentioned an MSRP - this is all conjecture at this point).

Look into the "Shrike" belt fed AR-15 uppers - awesome idea, radically different than anything on the market now, fantastic product - priced out of reach of any but the rich collectors - IF they end up producing any. That's just one example, there are thousands of products out there that fit the same bill.

To use your own words: This is just my opinion - do not mistake this as me portraying fact.

With that said - its just a fun design.

I agree that it's not only a fun design, it's extremely awesome looking. It ROCKS.

Please don't think I'm attempting to dissuade you from moving forward with your project, far from it - I'm illustrating points that I don't see being addressed, but will be instrumental in your success or failure with this product.

TITAN308
May 10, 2012, 05:50 PM
This project is nothing more than a side gig. I can't remember if I have stated this yet, but I have a well paying job (not to be mistaken for RICH) I enjoy. Any proceeds that come out of the project are just icing on the cake.

We will never reach the most global market because we have no intention of selling things made of plastic and can be bought by from the profit of mowing your neighbors grass one time. Not to mention this market is over saturated as is.

Based on the numbers we are seeing across some of the most popular forums with firearms we are looking at roughly a 10% interest rate.

That is 1 out of 10. 10 out of 100, 1,000 out of 10,000. Translate this into profit margin and the cash flow could increase quickly on this moving scale. And so forth and so forth.

What I can say is the pricing would be in the range of mid-grade to premium, depending on the selected options. I would imagine the closest thing I could offer is a complete upper set isn't going to be had for under $1,000 - but it won't be in the range of $3,000 either.

The economy argument doesn't work with firearm related products. Thankfully its the one market that reaps the opposite effects when the economy goes down the crapper. The market is literally bursting at the seams; we feel however if the same old stuff gets re-hashed its going to reach critical mass and basically go out like a deflating balloon. *imagine the fart sound one makes as the air goes out*

We feel gun collectors are going to get to the point where they feel like, "Meh - already had one of those."

Just for arguments sake, if we can get a stake in 10% of an exploding market, that is just fine by us. lol

Edit: And we have been kind of toying with the idea of modular add-ons. Like the cooling properties we are working on in-house, but won't be available for instant market access. We can design the components so at a future date the cooling "module" could be installed on a client's existing unit as an add-on.

Another idea (some credit to you Rail Driver) is a belt fed upper swap out type add-on.

Yet another is a small add-on that attaches a cleverly designed duct work system over your ejection port to neatly drop your rounds in a basket or box next to your shooting position.

We have others, but I won't comment on those yet.

For those interested in just looks, we are talking about an aluminum shorty version that is carbine length. It will have all the standard rails as any current market free float/front hand guard - but its own unique look.

We have a good list of "maybes" in front of us. Enough to keep us tinkering for a long time.

Rail Driver
May 10, 2012, 06:44 PM
The more ideas you come up with, and the more versatility you add to your product, the better chances of actually bringing it to market in my opinion. Like I've said before - I really like the idea and the implementation. Modular add-ons like you're talking about really open a lot of doors and could probably be modified to work with a more "standard" quad rail as well - I see lots of potential here.

Robert101
May 11, 2012, 01:20 AM
Titan, although I appreciate the nature of the design I do not understand the value of the application. Reduced recoil seems to me to function as a result of the increase weight and not through any other means. I do think many guns are aesthetically pleasing but, for the most part, those aesthectics must also contribute to the utilitarian nature of the intended purpose - which is to make the gun better in some fashion. I don’t see those attributes in the shroud. Sorry.

If a simple water cooling jacket was the intent, I believe there are better designs. Now on the much positive side, your graphic design of the shroud does hold promise and the geometry and proportions are good. Enjoy the creation and by your prior replies you have taken the criticism like a champ. Good for you.

4v50 Gary
May 11, 2012, 06:41 AM
Robert101 bet me to it. The jacket did remind me of the old machine guns that were water cooled. That alone (increased mass and weight) reduces recoil with the additional benefit of cooling the barrel and lengthening it's useful life.

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