I shot my leg


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Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:23 PM
So I had a negligent discharge when taking my 1911 out of its holster last night and it went off, I honestly cannot remember the few seconds when the firearm went off, I could swear I had my finger away from the trigger. anyways it was a grazing shot and just went through a little bit of body fat and skin. I am still beating myself up over the whole thing.
My reason for posting this was how others who have shot themselves by accident have recovered and if they sold off the gun or how they got back on the horse so to speak.
And yes I have considered selling the gun but will wait until I am better and can think more rationally.
If this is in the wrong place Mods feel free to move it.

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theicemanmpls
May 5, 2012, 07:29 PM
Unless your 1911 is terribly broken four things had to happen before you received that terrible pain in your leg.

Side safety released.
Beaver tail safety deactivated.
The hammer was cocked.
Trigger pulled.

IMO the 1911 is one of the safest pistols out there.

MrDig
May 5, 2012, 07:30 PM
When I had a ND I field stripped the gun and cleaned it and did it again.
I did not injure myself with the ND but taking the gun apart and cleaning it seemed to calm my nerves and helped me remember I'm the only person who can control the gun being familiar with it lessens the possibility that an accident will happen.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:33 PM
I know and before I left for the hospital I unloaded the 1911 and the side safety was on and after the shot all I did was put it on the bed. also I guess you have never been shot because at first there is no pain kinda weird but I didn't realize I had been shot until I dropped my pants to check.

J2FLAN
May 5, 2012, 07:42 PM
Glad it wasn`t worse.
" what dosen`t kill you-- makes you stronger'
In this case A better shooter (read: safer)
Good luck

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 07:43 PM
Everybody reacts differently to being shot, and different injury placement and severity can make a major difference in perception - When I was shot in the knee, it was IMMEDIATELY painful - felt like I was struck in the knee with a metal baseball bat by hulk hogan. It took a bit for my shock affected mind to realize I had been shot.

I carry a 1911 as well, and while I handle all my guns with care, I don't worry about having an ND with my carry pistol - I carry it cocked and locked, with all safeties intact.

I hope you heal up quickly, and don't give up carrying just because you made a mistake - *It can happen to anyone.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:45 PM
Thanks Rail driver, I will try to work back up to carrying but right off I do not know if I will be able to.

hso
May 5, 2012, 07:47 PM
wait until I am better and can think more rationally

If you look through the self inflicted wound and other negligent discharge thread you'll find that some are so traumatized that they can't take away any lesson other than get rid of all their guns. Others settle on get rid of the one involved in the shooting. The majority understand that they're the cause and solution for the ND and decide that they need to take a long hard look at their gun handling and make changes.

Deltaboy
May 5, 2012, 07:49 PM
Glad it was not worse. I would get that 1911 checked out by a gunsmith.
With all the built in safetys you would have to have to shot yourself on purpose if everything was in proper working order.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:51 PM
Yeah I plan on getting it checked out once I am better whether I choose to sell it or not.

AZ
May 5, 2012, 07:52 PM
I'm glad you posted this. As a relatively new shooter & gun owner it reminds me that it can happen to anyone. Every time I read a story like this it makes me that much more careful.

Odd Job
May 5, 2012, 07:53 PM
Did you seek medical attention?

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:55 PM
Yes, as I mentioned I went to the hospital. The EMT who transported me from one hospital to another tried to convince me to sell all guns. It did not work.

Odd Job
May 5, 2012, 07:57 PM
Sorry, I missed that you said already :o

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 07:59 PM
That's okay.

BigN
May 5, 2012, 08:01 PM
That's why I don't own any auto handguns. I was always afraid of the same thing. I breath easier knowing it's a revolver in my holster and not an auto.

mcdonl
May 5, 2012, 08:02 PM
Yes, as I mentioned I went to the hospital. The EMT who transported me from one hospital to another tried to convince me to sell all guns. It did not work.
haha... If I transported you I would have tried the same, except I would have tried to convinve you to sell them to me :)

I am glad you are better, and it goes as a reminder for all of us to remember the rules. Heal well, and look at it like a motorcycle accident. If you ride (Shoot) it could happen, and when it does it significantly decreases the chance of it happening again.

Manson
May 5, 2012, 08:02 PM
Glad you're OK. Deltaboy offers some good advice. Get the gun checked out. If it's OK and you're OK move on. We as a community of gun hobbyists are very careful. But not perfect.

spazzymcgee
May 5, 2012, 08:03 PM
To further knowledge, may I ask what make and model the 1911 was? It may help someone find out why it happened.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:05 PM
Thanks, it helps to get others opinions.

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 08:05 PM
Personally I'd have a long discussion with that EMT's supervisor for overstepping the lines of propriety - Your guns and what you do with them are not his business, and his area of expertise as far as his employment and his contact with you has nothing to do with firearms aside from the fact that you grazed your leg due to a ND.

T Bran
May 5, 2012, 08:05 PM
Sorry to hear but glad it wasnt worse. Go to the range asap and shoot a while dont give yourself time to dwell on it. Worse than falling off a horse but the same principal (with the exception of Christofer Reeves).
Do review your gun handling practices to determine what went wrong and why but dont beat yourself up over it just become more consious.
Lots of folks have had accidental discharges that didnt do any damage and continue to shoot. The only difference is that you got grased which stinks but dont let one incident prevent you from defending yourself in the future.
Best of luck with your recovery.
Troy

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:08 PM
It was a Para Ordnance GI Expert. also when brother got it (originally his) he had to get a part replaced it had to do with feed cartridges. I am drawing a blank right now.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:11 PM
It was a woman and I did have a conversation with her and tried to explain my position but at that point the pain had kicked in so I did not do as good of a job explaining as normal.

spazzymcgee
May 5, 2012, 08:14 PM
Perhaps you could send it in to Para Ordnance and have them check for issues?

philoe
May 5, 2012, 08:19 PM
Assuming it didn't go off by itself (yet to see a gun do that) you definitely know that your pistol works as it was designed to. This incident (as others have mentioned) could have been much worse. The pistol didn't do anything wrong is where I am going with this, and you now have a special connection with it imo. You will likely have a scar and a story to go with this incident in the future. Don't you want to keep the pistol that can tie the scar and the story together? I would.

Tinker
May 5, 2012, 08:24 PM
Axel,

Sorry you had this accident....at least it could have been much worse. As to what you do in regard to future carry, that is your decision.

Not to highjack your thread, but another aspect of this has me curious. I assume your accidental discharge was inside your home. One thing I am curious about is if you suffered any hearing damage from the report of the gun in an enclosed area. I know with the leg wound that ringing ears are on the back burner. In a home defense situation firearm discharge preserving your hearing is probably low on the totem pole when your life is at stake. You've experienced a discharge in a room....just curious if you notice any difference in your hearing.

Plan2Live
May 5, 2012, 08:24 PM
Humans are not perfect and accidents happen. I'm glad it was a minor injury and I sincerely hope you can move past this. Unfortunately you will never know exactly what you did wrong and thankfully no one else was affected.

Humor line deleted, probably too soon for that but dang it was tempting! Maybe in a few days. :evil:

ApacheCoTodd
May 5, 2012, 08:25 PM
So, looks like you got "MP; foot, calf or thigh" as it applies. Many's the well trained fella who's let his concentration lapse in handling a 1911 based pistol.

I see great positive energy in your not immediately jumping to it being the gun's fault. Accepting some degree of accountability/responsibility in this is the very first and most important step in getting past it.

I've personally known two individuals who have put holes in themselves with 1911s, one charging it in competition and the other de-cocking it. Neither was ever able to definitively say EXACTLY what confluence of events led up to it. Each had multiple witnesses actually watching them at the time and still only supposition. These events among others are why I always carry a 1911 with an empty chamber. I'll risk the seconds. But, this isn't about me.

A certain need is for the firearm to be thoroughly inspected before disassembly or cleaning then detail stripped if necessary.

I'd hang onto it, master it and be the example. Good luck.

Now, as far as my own NDs - I've never given up on the firearm, noted what the mistake was (mine were all personal negligence) and kept them firmly planted as negative examples.

Oh, and thanks for sharing and opening the conversation.

oldbear
May 5, 2012, 08:26 PM
Axel, I'm glad that you will be OK, gunshots can be very Traumatic emotionally and physically. Now is not the time to make any long lasting decisions.

The 1911 and its' clones are some of the finest combat handguns ever produced, I equate them to driving a Ferrari, you better know what you are doing cause they are just waiting to hurt you if you even get remotely careless for one second.

EddieNFL
May 5, 2012, 08:27 PM
If you look through the self inflicted wound and other negligent discharge thread you'll find that some are so traumatized that they can't take away any lesson other than get rid of all their guns.

Not always a bad idea.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:28 PM
Not really honestly, I had normal hearing back within about 15 minutes easy but it was only one shot. Also after it went through my leg it hit the bottom corner of the door went through but did not damage the floor at all.

1911Tuner
May 5, 2012, 08:30 PM
:scrutiny:

Jaxondog
May 5, 2012, 08:33 PM
Sorry to hear it, glad you are ok, so go back to firing the gun as soon as possible. It will probably be a little easier the quicker you do. Glad you are ok.:)

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:37 PM
Well I will shoot as soon as possible but I am kind of stuck to a bed for the next two days at least, literally doctors orders. Also after the EMT told the nurses and doctors about our conversation one male nurse told "guns are like tattoos once you have one you will get another" :evil:. It was nice to have someone on my side she did not bring it back up before she left after that.

Mr. Doughnut
May 5, 2012, 08:43 PM
Axel,

Your post made my blood run cold. Scary. Glad you're OK. I recently transitioned to a Beretta Px4 Storm (F) to help reduce the likelihood of ND/AD.

If you don't mind saying, what is your recollection of the bigger picture prior to the incident? Was there any alcohol use? Prescription meds? Drugs of any kind? Any concurrent illness or injury? Were you distracted (watching TV, listening to talk radio, deep in thought, having a conversation, feeding the dog etc.)? In short, was anything out of the ordinary?

Multi-tasking can put a cognitive strain on us. I'm just looking at some angles so perhaps we all can benefit from a teachable moment...

Mr. Doughnut

Vector
May 5, 2012, 08:43 PM
It sounds to me like you may be more of a novice than an experienced gun owner.
So my suggestion would be for you to take a safety course along with having someone help you to get intimately familiar with all your firearms.
I've owned guns for 30+ years and have never had an accidental discharge. Then again I learned to safely handle every gun I've owned before a bullet ever went into the chamber or mag.

x_wrench
May 5, 2012, 08:50 PM
i have been pretty lucky. the worst i have had happen is when i took the gun out of the holster at night, the safety had somehow gotten flipped to fire. it did not, but it sure woke me up to how these things can happen. i do not remember doing anything abnormal that day that i could blame it on either. so far, it has been the only time. the only n.d. i have had was with a revolver when i was 19. that, was a sobering experience that i still hope i never repeat.

p.s. glad you were not seriously hurt!

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 08:51 PM
The only thing out of the ordinary is I have had a cold for the past couple weeks but all i have right now is the end of it.
I have taken a safety course, have been taught by experienced gun owners and a Vet and I can clean and dissemble ever firearm I own and know how they work and very basic gunsmithing.
I am not saying that I will not become far more experienced in the future but compared to the average gun owner, I consider myself knowledgeable.

ApacheCoTodd
May 5, 2012, 09:26 PM
Cold? Any cold medicines taken recently?

I'm not asking you to tell us, but rather just brining it up for your consideration. Some things these days are best left off the internet should they come back to bite you in the.... oops, don't want another inappropriate language point.

MedWheeler
May 5, 2012, 09:28 PM
Good to hear you came out okay. I work in EMS, and have for over 20 years. I worked a few years in law enforcement before that, and volunteered with a local fire department even before that. In those 30-odd years in emergency response, I don't think it ever occurred to me that someone injured by a tool (or "toy") should immediately get rid of all of them. Yes, there have been people who have wrecked their cars whom I believed shouldn't drive anymore, but it would have been out of line for me to tell them that. I would be curious if that female EMT you encountered makes a habit of it.

Serenity
May 5, 2012, 09:28 PM
I appreciate that you've chosen to make it a teachable moment for the rest of us.

The EMT really ticks me off; pushing an agenda about ANYTHING with someone who's just had a gunshot wound is SO UNPROFESSIONAL. :cuss:

Glad you're okay,
Serenity

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 09:31 PM
thanks guys and no medications, I hate the fact that they make me loopy.

gbran
May 5, 2012, 09:34 PM
Many years ago there was a fellow who flew and raced airplanes (P-51's I think). A crew member made some mistake that caused his plane to crash. He didn't fire that crew member and when asked why, he said the guy would never do it again.

I'm gonna guess you'll probably never shoot yourself again either.

SleazyRider
May 5, 2012, 09:40 PM
... it happens to everyone sooner or later.
Why? Why must it happen to everyone sooner or later? Though I understand your empathy, if this were the case, I'd quit handling firearms immediately.

ms6852
May 5, 2012, 09:46 PM
All it takes is to lose sight of what is going on at the moment. We should always focus on gun safety and never assume anything, I mean anything. As a retired army guy I of all people with more than 45 years of handling weapons had an ND a couple of years ago. Luckily no one got hurt, not even the mattress. It could have been worse since I did find a bullet hole on the ceiling. In a split second something possessed me to squeeze the trigger after dumping my magazine instead of clearing the chamber. Thank god for your courage in posting this thread and for your safety and health.

Jaybird78
May 5, 2012, 09:48 PM
Takes some guts to post about your accident. Hopefully all will remember safety is priority #1.

I caused a vehicle accident years ago....16 years old and full of fire..only minor injurys....I'm still driving today. Nobody is perfect.;)

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 09:48 PM
Why? Why must it happen to everyone sooner or later? Though I understand your empathy, if this were the case, I'd quit handling firearms immediately.
It doesn't HAVE to - the ideal is that it never happens. I dislike using absolutes, and should have said "it has the potential to happen to anyone". Noted, edited, and moved on :)

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 09:50 PM
Again thanks guys, it does help. It is nice to have supportive responses.

Certaindeaf
May 5, 2012, 10:02 PM
I'd saddle that colt right back up. It of course could have been grievously graver had you done just this or that. It was bad enough but hey, now you know just a bit better. Knock on wood again.

marv
May 5, 2012, 10:04 PM
Glad your wound is not worse. I would suggest you retire the 1911 to the safe for a while. Get a Double Action Only auto or revolver. Never heard of one of them going off accidental. Some of us prefer them. You might like it too.

Sig Bill
May 5, 2012, 10:06 PM
Wow, glad you're ok. That's gotta be a trip, a loud report and a hole in your leg. :banghead:

Whenever I handle guns they have 100% of my attention because I have profound respect for them. Luckily I haven't any accident and hopefully never will, that's for sure. Also both of my guns (9 and 40) are DOAs because I feel safer CC them with a round in the pipe.

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 10:08 PM
Glad your wound is not worse. I would suggest you retire the 1911 to the safe for a while. Get a Double Action Only auto or revolver. Never heard of one of them going off accidental. Some of us prefer them. You might like it too.
It's not the hardware that malfunctioned here, it's the software - Switching guns isn't necessarily the answer - getting more training and being more vigilant (avoiding complacency) is the answer.

tdstout
May 5, 2012, 10:13 PM
also I guess you have never been shot because at first there is no pain kinda weird but I didn't realize I had been shot until I dropped my pants to check.
__________________


Yeah, I've heard people say that on movies. Asked my dad about it, and he said that it was bullcrap. According to him, it was the worst pain he had ever felt as soon as it happened. He was gutshot while in vietnam though, so it might have something to do with shot placement.

Sucks about you accident though. DON'T SELL YOUR GUNS!!! You'll probably regret it in the long run.

JRC45AUTO
May 5, 2012, 10:15 PM
Have smithed 1911's for years and the only ones I will own have the dreaded
firingpin block series 80.
I have worked on many series 70 models & these are the ones that will bite you.
I have had AD's just dropping the slide of some race guns friends have owned.
I have had them to go full auto with too light trigger (only load 2 when testing).
If you think the sear released from just handling you need to get a hammer with a half cock ledge will make a series 70 much more AD resistant.

ford8nr
May 5, 2012, 10:15 PM
I know and before I left for the hospital I unloaded the 1911 and the side safety was on and after the shot all I did was put it on the bed. also I guess you have never been shot because at first there is no pain kinda weird but I didn't realize I had been shot until I dropped my pants to check.
First off I'm glad you're OK. I can't imagine the slide safety being on and firing without causing VISIBLE damage to the gun. My guess is instinctively you put it back on after the shot. 1911's are very safe guns as long as you do your part. I'd check the holster for a snag point if you firmly believe your finger wasn't near the trigger.

Axel Larson
May 5, 2012, 10:17 PM
Yeah a few others have said that their pain was immediate, but in my case I did not feel anything at first. Believe me though it kicked in after sometime could not tell exactly probably more than 10 minutes though

Waywatcher
May 5, 2012, 10:27 PM
It is very big of you to admit to this and post it here. Kudos to you for that. I hope you heal up fully and quickly.

I can empathize with the EMT, being one myself. Look at it from her point of view--guy shoots self with gun. Removing guns from the situation is a quick and easy fix. She doesn't know you very well and probably assumes the worst, having seen drunk (and sober) people do lots of stupid (and negligent) things.

I am not saying she is right, or even right to have said what she did, but I can understand why she did and I don't fault her for it.

armysniper
May 5, 2012, 10:42 PM
I am glad you are ok. But 1911's are notorious for AD's.

My best friend who is a swat team member, marine veteran, army veteran and firearms instructor shot him self while putting his Kimber 1911 back into his holster.

And here is a youtube video of another guy shooting himself while drawing from the holster. Personally I always thought this Tex Grebner guy was a train wreck waiting to happen.

http://youtu.be/zYvAxLX6OzE

wingman
May 5, 2012, 10:49 PM
If I cut myself with my knife(which I've done) should I sell it,If I wreck my car should I never drive again, accident pure and simple, learn and don't do it again, just a wild guess here IMO not the gun's fault but the operator. We simply cannot rid the world of all possible accidents we can only work to improve our avoidance of them.

Certaindeaf
May 5, 2012, 10:50 PM
..My best friend who is a swat team member, marine veteran, army veteran and firearms instructor shot him self while putting his Kimber 1911 back into his holster..
I think the OP was drawing it.

Harrod
May 5, 2012, 10:55 PM
Alex, first I am glad you are doing ok. A friend of mine is a LEO and carries a 1911 as his duty weapon, they are a beautiful weapon I hope that you are able to overcome and keep it. I had a motorcycle accident a few years ago and I sold off my bike and still regret it at times, I would hate to see someone in that position.

FROGO207
May 5, 2012, 10:58 PM
I am glad that you were not hurt as seriously as it could have been. If the angle was a little different it could have been MUCH worse for sure. I would get a second opinion on that pistol as far as it being mechanically sound before I carried it again. The advice not to sell it now is a sound line of thought. I am willing to bet you will always be way more careful handling it in the future. IMHO anything that operates by mechanical means can fail to work as designed now and again due to wear or breakage and the suggestion to get a hammer with a half cock ledge is an excellent idea for a safer series 70.

War Squirrel
May 5, 2012, 11:02 PM
Happens to the best of us, don't let it get you down.
Like everyone else said, learn from it!

My one and only ND was with an old Savage MKII f-bolt I had, my first gun. I owned it for several years, and I never bothered to clean under the extractor. Cases ended up sticking in the chamber, and one was particularly stubborn.

After trying to dig it out with a flathead screwdriver one night after shooting, I tried working the bolt fast and hard, hoping the stuck casing would be pulled out. At some point, I pulled the trigger in frustration, firing that stuck "case" - which I then discovered was a round - into my fireplace.

I now check the chamber and magazine religiously.
Not regular religiously either, Islam religiously. 5 times a day, facing east.

Inebriated
May 5, 2012, 11:03 PM
Glad you're alright... I'd be a lot more attached to the gun though, to be honest.

Onward Allusion
May 5, 2012, 11:05 PM
Glad you weren't more seriously injured and thank you for posting this. It serves as a reminder to all of us that NDs can and do happen and we need to be vigilant when handling firearms.

Rail Driver
May 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
I am glad you are ok. But 1911's are notorious for AD's.

My best friend who is a swat team member, marine veteran, army veteran and firearms instructor shot him self while putting his Kimber 1911 back into his holster.

And here is a youtube video of another guy shooting himself while drawing from the holster. Personally I always thought this Tex Grebner guy was a train wreck waiting to happen.

http://youtu.be/zYvAxLX6OzE
There have been just as many NEGLIGENT (accidental implies a mechanical malfunction of the firearm) discharges with Glocks, Sigs, and every other type of pistol - Claiming that one type of pistol or another is more prone to negligent discharge is a cop-out.

For every video out there of somebody having a negligent discharge with a 1911, you can find at least one of someone having a negligent discharge with another type of pistol.

I will say that a 1911 isn't necessarily the best pistol for a first timer, but that has nothing to do with the pistol being more or less prone to negligent discharge and has more to do with the fact that they tend to be finicky.

The bottom line is that no firearm in good repair will fire without the trigger being pressed.

coolluke01
May 5, 2012, 11:20 PM
This is a good eye opener for all of us. Thanks for posting this and allowing us the opportunity to learn a cheap lesson.

While I've never shot myself, I did have a scary squib last year during a competition. Fortunately I heard a little pop and didn't just rack another round in the chamber and fire again. I had run out of powder when reloading and didn't catch it before I had loaded that round. I saved the bullet and I keep it on my reloading table. It's a good reminder.

I will be reviewing my practices and keep your story in mind.

shiftyer1
May 5, 2012, 11:54 PM
I have had 2 nd's, luckily no injuries. They happened as a youngster and were do my negligence.

If you can't figure out what you did wrong I would probably have the gun checked out just to be sure nothings broken or worn. If you do some research and find this is a common problem with the gi expert please let me know as I own one. I have a feeling you probably swiped the thumb safety on the draw and had ur booger hook where it didn't belong.

My son handles my hand guns alot loaded and unloaded. When I see a finger in the trigger guard of an unloaded gun he gets slapped upside the head and read the riot act. I think you just got your slap. Happy to hear it ended well.....mostly. I doubt you'll do it again!

I have a feeling that if you enjoy shooting before......you will again. And I bet you'll double and triple check everything you do from now on:) Good luck to you

SARDiver
May 6, 2012, 12:04 AM
Unless your 1911 is terribly broken four things had to happen before you received that terrible pain in your leg.

Side safety released.
Beaver tail safety deactivated.
The hammer was cocked.
Trigger pulled.

IMO the 1911 is one of the safest pistols out there.

In fairness, he was pulling the weapon out of the holster. That means he had to get a grip on it, so the beavertail safety being "deactivated" is kind of assumed. Assuming he was carrying it for defensive purposes, it was loaded and most likely cocked. Depending on the type of holster and the quality of that holster (or the stiffness of the thumb safety), it is actually possible that it was moved to the fire position unknowingly.

That means the trigger pull is possibly the only thing the OP did wrong, and even that may not be his fault, not directly anyway. Perhaps it got snagged on something during the pull. Perhaps he started to withdraw and momentarily pushed it back down on something that pressed the trigger.



Regarding the EMT thing...I got the same line of crap after my motorcycle accident. Someone always wants to tell you how to live. Blow it off.

robmkivseries70
May 6, 2012, 12:09 AM
All I can say is wow, glad you are OK. When transferring my 1911s from holster (IWB BTW) to the safe, I stick my thumb UNDER the thumb safety and make sure it is engaged before the trigger is exposed. Finger in register position as well. I also do an occasional check of the thumb safety when carrying if I can be discrete. Practice a safe routine, seriously, a thousand times to begin the engrain it.
Best,
Rob

allaroundhunter
May 6, 2012, 12:13 AM
Yeah, I've heard people say that on movies. Asked my dad about it, and he said that it was bullcrap. According to him, it was the worst pain he had ever felt as soon as it happened. He was gutshot while in vietnam though, so it might have something to do with shot placement.

It most definitely is not "bullcrap". It has to do with shot placement, adrenaline, the individual person, and other factors.

hang fire
May 6, 2012, 01:58 AM
Around 45 years ago I shot myself in the back of thigh with a High Standard Sport King, the .22 rf bullet traveled through 16 inches of muscle before coming to rest behind my knee.

Like you, no immediate pain and not much blood. The operation to remove the bullet was a horse of a different color, mucho pain that lasted for weeks, After effects of spinal tap for surgery was pure misery with maddening headaches for over a month.

1911Tuner
May 6, 2012, 07:09 AM
Have smithed 1911's for years and the only ones I will own have the dreaded
firingpin block series 80.

It was a Para Ordnance. It has the Colt Series 80 design firing pin block. If the gun fired...somebody pulled the trigger.

I am glad you are ok. But 1911's are notorious for AD's.

Any firearm that's mishandled can provide an AD/ND. I've been wrenchin' on 1911s for a good many years, myownself...and I've never known one to go off without a human hand being involved. If the gun fired...somebody pulled the trigger.

If I were the OP, I'd run a quick safety check on the gun...empty, of course.

Move the hammer back until you hear the first click to make sure the quarter-cock shelf catches the sear.. Then, move it to full cock to make sure the sear is resetting.

Without touching the trigger, use a pencil point to push on the firing pin to make sure that the passive block is operational. The pin shouldn't move forward more than a few thousandths of an inch.

Engage the thumb safety, and pull the trigger with about double the normal force needed to drop the hammer. Pull and release 3-4 times. If the hammer doesn't fall, the thumb safety is functioning as intended. If it falls, the thumb safety should be replaced.

No, the thumb safety will not keep the hammer from falling. If the sear moves far enough to get loose from the hammer hooks, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb.

If the hammer doesn't fall, release the grip safety to the safe position and pull the trigger. The hammer should stay put. The grip safety is neither here nor there. Many people disable the grip safety entirely and never have a problem, but check it anyway just for giggles.

Even if the thumb safety had become inadvertently disengaged, the trigger still needs to be pulled in order to fire the gun. Assuming a functional grip safety that was blocking trigger movement, the holstered gun couldn't have had the trigger '"staged."

In the final analysis...

If this particular gun fired...somebody pulled the trigger.

Bet on it.

EddieNFL
May 6, 2012, 08:04 AM
But 1911's are notorious for AD's.

Maybe if they threw a few of 'em in prison that would act as a deterrent for the rest. Nothing I hate worse than a gun that goes around randomly firing. Maybe Sarah Brady is on to something.

If this particular gun fired...somebody pulled the trigger.

Amen.

General Geoff
May 6, 2012, 08:40 AM
Claiming that one type of pistol or another is more prone to negligent discharge is a cop-out.
The heavier the trigger pull, the harder it is to negligently discharge. This is why some large PDs and other organizations with major liability problems, specify duty pistols with super-heavy trigger pulls.

Since 1911s in particular tend to have lighter trigger pulls, it could be argued that they are more prone to negligent discharges, though not necessarily negligent handling. In other words, 1911s (and other single action/light trigger pull pistols) don't mollycoddle their users.

CajunBass
May 6, 2012, 09:09 AM
Sorry to hear about your incident. Hope you heal well. I've done the same thing, except I was blessed enough to hit nothing but a bookcase. (Praise God)

Not to highjack your thread, but another aspect of this has me curious. I assume your accidental discharge was inside your home. One thing I am curious about is if you suffered any hearing damage from the report of the gun in an enclosed area.

In the incident I mentioned above, I never heard the shot. I stood there holding the gun wondering what happened. I knew something had. The slide was locked back when it had just been in battery.

The funny thing is, no one else in the house heard it either. My wife's uncle in the next room said he thought I "popped a primer" reloading. My MIL, nor my wife heard it at all.

Scared the bejebbers out of me I tell you. :what:

NG VI
May 6, 2012, 09:18 AM
Would it be impolite to ask what kind of ammunition you had in it?

EddieNFL
May 6, 2012, 09:22 AM
The heavier the trigger pull, the harder it is to negligently discharge. This is why some large PDs and other organizations with major liability problems, specify duty pistols with super-heavy trigger pulls.

And that's much less expensive that proper training.

We now depend on sideview mirrors that warn us of close encounters, sensors that will apply the brake if we get to close to another vehicle, engine speed limiters to prevent over revving. In other words, we let the car drive for us. Maybe we should apply similar technology to firearms to overcome our lackadaisical attitudes and lack of training.

Gtimothy
May 6, 2012, 09:37 AM
Sorry to hear about this! Handling loaded weapons always gets my full attention and I've been fortunate to never have a ND/AD (knock on wood).

I have a question that I see hasn't been asked and I'm curious. Was there a police report filed by the hospital? In movies and cop shows they always say that doctors and hospitals have to report gun shot wounds to the police and I was wondering if this was the case with you. Get better and get back to training and shooting!

Axel Larson
May 6, 2012, 10:32 AM
Yes although I do not think it was that much of a report, the deputy that came in was nice and the information he needed consisted of asking if it was me that shot myself and not someone else then basic information date of birth, mailing address and full name.

BSA1
May 6, 2012, 10:45 AM
Back to the OP's question I would retire the 1911 for now. As others have commented the 1911 is more prone to ND's than a DA auto and revolver.

I would go to carrying a double action revolver. Transfer bar to prevent AD if gun is dropped and a long deliberate trigger pull. Revolvers come in a wide variety of calibers including 45 ACP.

Practice and handled other weapons systems. While some here on the forum will damn you to hell for choosing somethng other the greatest creation since Noah's Ark you will find there are lots of excellent choices out there. As for the 1911 I would eventually bring it out for target practice and plinking.

P.S. I avoid ND's altogether by carrying with a empty chamber.

Skyshot
May 6, 2012, 10:51 AM
Sorry to hear about the ND and your injury, But, maybe it's a blessing in disguise. You now have a more elevated sense of safety that you won't soon forget. I think anyone who handles firearms enough will have an ND happen to them at some point. I've had two in my lifetime and I'm now 57. But I've had some close calls also, one being with my grandson and an AR-15 we had been shooting. I broke one of the cardinal rules of gun safety and forgot to check the chamber on the rifle. Several of us passed the rifle around admiring it and handling it. No one checked the chamber which had a live round in it. Later that evening when I pulled the charging handle to get ready to clean the rifle, out popped the round. I suddenly became so sick to my stomach and felt like a big jackass,which is what I was. My thoughts became to ,what could have just happend, If someone pulled the trigger on that AR and God forbid one of my loved ones became injured or killed. At that moment I wanted rid of every weapon I have. As I realized, that's a wake up call for me and it's gonna be a long time before I forget what could have happend. There's always risk involed in handling firearms just like riding motorcycles or driving fast cars. When laxity becomes the norm we get bit. Best regards,

j1
May 6, 2012, 10:58 AM
I would not send it to Para Ordinance as they have a dog in the race, meaning that they might try to cover up any problems with the gun.

WinThePennant
May 6, 2012, 11:39 AM
I love how the 1911 fanboys always come to the defense of 1911.

The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen. When the gun is being inserted or removed from the holster, it is the gun most likely to ND of all guns out there (IMHO) because of its very light SA pull. I know, I know. Everyone is going to shout (in unison), but "Not if you do [Fill In Blank]."

Glock has its problems, too.

In my view, the KING of safety in high quality handguns is Sig Sauer's DA/SA combination. If you want a steel .45, then you should get the P220. You can spend the extra dough to get Sig's Action Enhancement Package ($180). That really lightens that first DA pull, and the SA after that is nothing short of awesome.

Sav .250
May 6, 2012, 11:42 AM
Must be a ...lesson learned...... in there some where.

Axel Larson
May 6, 2012, 11:49 AM
the lesson is that I will be extra careful handling any firearm from now on. no matter what happened it was at least partially my fault for having the gun near my leg, even though it was a grazing shot it was still pointing at my leg. I hope this can make me a even more experienced firearm owner, today is better so far, past the initial shock.

Claude Clay
May 6, 2012, 12:26 PM
the lesson is that I will be extra careful handling any firearm from now on. no matter what happened it was at least partially my fault for having the gun near my leg, even though it was a grazing shot it was still pointing at my leg. I hope this can make me a even more experienced firearm owner, today is better so far, past the initial shock.

you must to take full responsibility----you can not heal in your mind till you do. and after all, you were the one holding the gun.
further, you swept your self and touched the trigger--reality can be harsh and you actually got off lucky what for the negligent acts you performed. most certainly you need to go back to training, re-training perhaps with an instructor cause you broke more than one of the 4 rules; it may be beyond you to self correct.

while you are relearning gun handling id give serious consideration to another platform...such as a DA/SA with a decocker--Sig P239 in 40 or 9mm or a 45acp Sig P220. as was noted previously, some guns are more forgiving when mishandled.

bottom line--pay for some time with a professional. you have habits that need to be identified and stopped. thats why you need an instructor.

moving forward, good luck and i hope you heal without any scars.

thank you for sharing what has to be a physically and emotionally painful experience

1911Tuner
May 6, 2012, 12:34 PM
The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen.

Not for those who keep their fingers clear of the trigger when they don't want to fire the pistol.

. When the gun is being inserted or removed from the holster, it is the gun most likely to ND of all guns out there (IMHO) because of its very light SA pull.

If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...don't. It's really that simple. Really.

WinThePennant
May 6, 2012, 12:36 PM
Yes, that's what everyone says. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you want to shoot. Still, it happens.

The "safest" design is one that reduces the likelihood of human error. I still maintain that Sig's DA/SA is, by far, the safest of all trigger systems.

1911Tuner
May 6, 2012, 12:39 PM
Yes, that's what everyone says. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you want to shoot. Still, it happens.

Yes, because people load guns and monkey-finger the triggers. See...Pulling the trigger is what makes the gun fire...as designed. Nothing can be made fool proof because fools will always find a way.

Bottom line:

Is gun. Gun not safe. Be careful. Life is hard. It's harder when we're stupid.

denton
May 6, 2012, 01:14 PM
Glad to hear that you are OK. Bet that smarted plenty.

I have to share my favorite ND story:

About 25 years ago, we lived on the east side of the Sierras, just down the mountain from Tahoe. One night a couple of deputies were hitting the buffet at Harrah's, which, at that time, was a cheap place to get a good meal. As one of them sat down, somehow his weapon and holster ended up under him. Through means not exactly understood, perhaps poor holster design, or a confluence of unlikely events, as he sat down the firearm discharged.

Nobody (but possibly him) was injured. He heard a loud bang and felt something whack him solidly on the butt. He didn't know whether he was shot or not, so he and his partner retired to the men's room to check it out.

So picture this: The deputy is in the restroom, with his partner behind him, his pants down around his ankles. With his pants down, he had no convenient place to put his weapon, so he was holding it in both hands, with the muzzle up.

In walked a couple of tourists.

The possibly injured deputy turned to his partner and said, "Kiss it."

The tourists left.

Fortunately, the deputy was only suffering from the effects of recoil. But I'll bet those tourists had a story to tell when they got home.

Axel Larson
May 6, 2012, 01:18 PM
Wow, makes my situation not seem so embarrassing:). thanks.

Certaindeaf
May 6, 2012, 01:18 PM
^
That's pretty dang funny.

SimplyChad
May 6, 2012, 01:40 PM
Ive had one AD and one ND. The AD was a SW sigma that had a faulty sear that grazed my pants leg throught the seat of my car and my boot heal. Scary and ****ty birthday lol. The ND was with a DA/SA revolver. Yes guys revolver. It was new and I was practicing lowering the hammer. Loaded it tryed a few times and killed House on my plasma screen. 357 mag in doors. almost got away with it except i couldnt get another TV before the wife came home.

MrDig
May 6, 2012, 02:08 PM
"Keep Booger Hook off the Bang Switch" the ND I had was with a 30-30 lever a hand full of gun oil and checking how it cycled and pulling the trigger after I field stripped it. I had my thumb all over the hammer but the hammer slipped free from my well Oiled thumb, thus reaffirming the adage, "Keep Booger Hook off the Bang Switch".
I have lots of guns and even a 1911 Springfield but none have "gone off" unless I had a finger near the Trigger. There are rare occasions where the trigger was manipulated by a foreign object engaging the trigger, but I would venture they are more rare than any of us care to admit.

loose noose
May 6, 2012, 02:24 PM
I'm sorry Axel, about your encounter, however, I've carried a Colt Gold Cup National Match for over 35 years and never came close to a ND or AD. I teach shooter safety and I've allways stressed when you draw your weapon out of the holster with your finger along the frame, until your arms are outstretched and it is safe to fire (allways keeping your eyes down range) then you insert your finger onto the trigger, not until then. Now I'm sure some of you will ask what happens in a self defense case. Well when I requalified as a range master here in Southern Nevada out in Pahrump Nv. at Front sight I could put 2 rounds in less than 2 seconds from my holster in between the eyes of a silouette target at 7 yards. I know that is under a less than stressful situation but I'm certain I could put two shots in center of mass in less than 2 seconds under a very stressful condition. Any way best of luck in your recovery.

Pilot
May 6, 2012, 02:28 PM
Thanks for posting. It is always good to get a reminder on safe gun handling. I live by these two rules when handling a pistol.

Keep my finger off the trigger.

Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, which usually means at the ground. Not at my feet!

JellyJar
May 6, 2012, 03:14 PM
First I am not a gunsmith. However, I read once long ago that if the sear of a 1911 is stoned to smooth the trigger pull and it is not done properly that this can make it possible for the sear to disconnect even if the safety is engaged and the trigger is not pulled.

Take the gun to a good 1911 gunsmith and have him/her examine the trigger group.

shappa357
May 6, 2012, 03:42 PM
Did you recover the bullit?

Maybe you should encase it in plastic as a reminder. :)


Easier to look at that as a reminder than dropping trousers.:D




Glad it didn't do much damage.

EddieNFL
May 6, 2012, 03:46 PM
When the gun is being inserted or removed from the holster, it is the gun most likely to ND of all guns out there (IMHO) because of its very light SA pull.

I used to think DA auto was a solution to a non-existing problem, but now I see I was wrong. Some folks need extra protection from themselves.

1911Tuner
May 6, 2012, 04:20 PM
First I am not a gunsmith. However, I read once long ago that if the sear of a 1911 is stoned to smooth the trigger pull and it is not done properly that this can make it possible for the sear to disconnect even if the safety is engaged and the trigger is not pulled.

While a badly done trigger job can result in the hammer falling when the slide is released, it's rare for the gun to actually discharge unless the whole fire control group is screwed...usually the result of a tinkerer using drop-in this and that of varying, unknown quality. The half-cock notch keeps that from happening.

In 47 years of owning, shooting, and working on and with 1911 pistols, I've only seen it happen once. With the pistol static, in a holster, with the manual safety and grip safety engaged...not gonna happen.

If the manual safety has become disengaged while in the holster, and the man drawing the gun sticks his finger in the trigger guard as he withdraws it...and he also depresses the grip safety...and the gun snags on something as it moves up...bang. That's not the fault of the gun.

JRH6856
May 6, 2012, 06:55 PM
Over the years, many gun's mechanics have been improved to make them safer from accidental discharge, but so far, no gun has been or can be mechanically made safe from negligent discharge. Except by making it completely non-functional.

Owen
May 6, 2012, 07:19 PM
I just skimmed through here, and I didn't see it addressed:

What kind of holster were you using?

P_books
May 6, 2012, 07:19 PM
This happened to me years ago.
Bought a ParaOrdinance, used, and kept it on me at a convenience store I was part owner of. Being the poor sod I was, I kept it in my pocket being that it was small enough to fit without showing. Always kept a round in the chamber and hammer down.

But I was talking with a friend of mine one day, leaning against a wall while talking and BANG! Went straight down the side of my leg and only hit the floor. I was lucky not to have my knee hit. I know it was not fully cocked but later found that half cock safety didn't work. That is the best I can figure what happened to it, was in half cock and slipped off.

Still have the gun.

WinThePennant
May 6, 2012, 07:23 PM
I used to think DA auto was a solution to a non-existing problem, but now I see I was wrong. Some folks need extra protection from themselves.
My point exactly. The 1911 fanboys never get it.

Averageman
May 6, 2012, 07:34 PM
The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen. When the gun is being inserted or removed from the holster, it is the gun most likely to ND of all guns out there (IMHO) because of its very light SA pull. I know, I know. Everyone is going to shout (in unison), but "Not if you do [Fill In Blank]."
The gun is the tool, I am the weapon.
I do not blame my tools for the workmanship they produce, I work harder, train harder and study more; but I do not blame the tool.

SabbathWolf
May 6, 2012, 07:36 PM
I would unload the gun, put it back in the holster in the same mode it was in when it fired.
Then see if you can reproduce the same thing again with the gun "unloaded."
If you can, that may tell you something.

I wouldn't sell it though.
In fact it would drive me personally half crazy not knowing how or why it happened. I'd probably never rest until I figured it out.

Glad you are OK.

WinThePennant
May 6, 2012, 07:50 PM
The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen. When the gun is being inserted or removed from the holster, it is the gun most likely to ND of all guns out there (IMHO) because of its very light SA pull. I know, I know. Everyone is going to shout (in unison), but "Not if you do [Fill In Blank]."
The gun is the tool, I am the weapon.
I do not blame my tools for the workmanship they produce, I work harder, train harder and study more; but I do not blame the tool.
What's funny is that in ALL my years of shooting and reading/writing on gun message boards, I don't think I've EVER read or heard of a single instance of a Sig DA/SA ND.

Not that they haven't happened. I am sure they do. But, it's a very rare event.

Likewise, I've never heard of a ND from a Sig P250.

45_auto
May 6, 2012, 07:57 PM
Only ND I've ever seen during a Gunsite class was a Sig. We had just finished a night shoot, guy obviously thought he had cleared it. We were under a shooting shed, he went to put it in his shooting bag. Pointed it at the concrete floor and pulled the trigger. Got everyone's attention and got him sent home ....

EddieNFL
May 6, 2012, 08:19 PM
My point exactly. The 1911 fanboys never get it.
But you missed my point. I wasn't agreeing with you.

After following this thread for a couple of days, I think I have the answer to the locked topic, "Which handgun is most prone to Accidental/Negligent discharge?"

The one purchased because the buyer thinks it will help him prevent a negligent discharge.

Averageman
May 6, 2012, 08:20 PM
I think we are getting Accidental and Negligent mixed up here.
Any pistol, Sig or not can be used to produce a Neglignet discharge, ND's are totally software driven.
Accidental Discharges can sometimes (rarely) be caused by a weapon failure. If you own an inoperative weapon and know it all AD's become ND's. You knew it was defective and used it anyway.
The point I was trying to make is that you control the weapon, you hold all responcability for what happens with that weapon. Really there are very, very few exceptions to that rule.
If you aren't willing to accept that rule, well; thats why they made Golf.

1911Tuner
May 6, 2012, 08:43 PM
I know it was not fully cocked but later found that half cock safety didn't work. That is the best I can figure what happened to it, was in half cock and slipped off.

A Para Ordnance.

With a passive firing pin safety that doesn't allow the firing pin to reach the primer unless the trigger is pulled and held to the rear.

A Para Ordnance...with a quarter-cock shelf that positions the hammer too close to the slide to light a primer even if the firing pin could get past the passive block.

Uh huh.

Originally Posted by WinThePennant View Post
My point exactly. The 1911 fanboys never get it.

Not a fanboy at all. I'm actually rather fond of revolvers. I just have a lot of experience with the 1911 pistol and I understand exactly how it functions.

I also understand that whenever I hear those words:

"I don't understand it. The thing just went off!"

I know that I'm hearing sheep dip.

This, whether it's a 1911 or a Glock or a double-action revolver.

Pulling the trigger is what makes the gun fire. If you shoot yourself in the foot while drawing your gun, you pulled the trigger. If you shoot your dog...you pulled the trigger. If you put one through your wife's SUV...you pulled the trigger. You may not have meant to pull it. You may not have been aware that you were, in fact, pulling it...but you did. It's just that simple.

Today is Sunday. There were countless thousands of action matches shot in various insundry places all over the country yesterday and today. About 10 million 1911s and its variants were drawn, fired, reholstered, and drawn again. If it were all that dangerous, the news channels could no wise report all the injuries and deaths.

But...do carry on.

EddieNFL
May 6, 2012, 08:48 PM
If you aren't willing to accept that rule, well; thats why they made Golf.

Game, Set, Match!

Axel Larson
May 6, 2012, 08:53 PM
The Holster was a triple k, I think a secret agent but I am not positive and can not move easily enough to go check.

Odd Job
May 6, 2012, 09:25 PM
I am curious about the wounds, Axel: did you have two distinct holes? Was this upper leg or lower leg, inner surface or outer?
Reason I ask is because in a sample of 150 gunshot patients I processed in SA, I found that 10 out of 150 had tangential wounds. They are not that rare, but a true tangential doesn't penetrate at all, it is a graze wound. If you have two distinct wounds, that's a perforating injury (fairly common, I found 64 out of 150 cases).

Axel Larson
May 6, 2012, 09:41 PM
it penetrated about maybe two inches of skin and came out. exit wound is not nice but the entry wound is already healing nicely.

Odd Job
May 6, 2012, 09:50 PM
You should be okay, just keep it clean and finish the whole course of anti-biotics (if they gave you pills). Usually they don't stitch the wounds, they just dress them and send you home.

Mr. Doughnut
May 6, 2012, 10:17 PM
Axel,

What kind of bullet? (HP, FMJ, etc.)

Mr. D.

NMGonzo
May 6, 2012, 11:43 PM
I had a 1911 ND when I was 18.

I was lowering the hammer on a live round.

Went off, hit a bathroom tile, and after a few seconds I am looking for my own injury.

None was there.

I got more careful about being sleepy, sitting in the toilet, and lowering the hammer on a live round.

If I want a hammer down gun, I just grab one of the others.

loneviking
May 7, 2012, 12:21 AM
When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

My AD happened without my finger being on the trigger. I had to learn that much of what I hear on many forums is complete nonsense.

And for the OP, get the gun checked and if the gun functions properly then try to figure out how this happened. Give yourself some time to mentally recover before heading to the range. I had an AD 4 years ago and I still carry everday. No, not that gun but I sold the gun because of ammo availability problems. I carry a DA/SA with a slide mounted decocker/safety or a DA revolver. That's my recommendation for most folks who CCW.

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 01:01 AM
First off: This is "The High Road", and there are ways to disagree without being an *** about it.
Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

NDs with Serpas are not caused by the locking system inside of the holster. They come from the users not keeping their trigger finger indexed on the draw.


Yes, there are ADs caused by a malfunctioning gun, but 99.9999% of what people call an "accidental discharge" are actually negligent discharges; complete with the shooter's trigger finger being where it didn't belong. I have seen more "accidental" discharges than I can count, and only one of them was a true accident (slam-fire). The others were caused by the operator error.

paramedic70002
May 7, 2012, 01:09 AM
And triggers have been activated by safety straps, waist drawstrings on coats, and I'm sure a lot of other things.

But the reason I came to post is the EMT. I've been doing EMS and transport for decades. She was running off at the mouth and probably had a personal issue with guns. Many EMS providers are gunnies. I would have swapped stories with you during the trip. What concerns me most is she felt the need to continue your gun therapy/recovery efforts with the staff at the receiving facility. She really does need her boss to tell her to STHU.

loneviking
May 7, 2012, 02:07 AM
Allaroundhunter, your opinion about the Serpa is just that---an opinion. You might want to go over to the Warrior Talk forum and talk to some of the Suarez instructors that would disagree with you. After all, they were there and you weren't.

And the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger is made up BS. Its an opinion, and I can show story after story to refute that opinion. The folks who are new to owning and carrying guns need to know that there are other ways a gun can go off. With that info they can then know to reguarly inspect the insides of their holster; check the holster to make sure the trigger can't be pressed from outside the holster; check that the trigger guard is covered; know not to wear jackets with drawstrings...etc.

Burying your head in the sand and repeating the mantra of 'omly with a finger on the trigger' doesn't help the new folks and ignores the facts.

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 02:14 AM
And the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a finger on the trigger* is made up BS. Its an opinion, and I can show story after story to refute that opinion

Do you understand that there are also stories after stories of NDs being caused by a finger on the trigger? There are no definitive statistics, but I assure you, it is well into the high 90th percentile of NDs that are caused by a finger inadvertently pulling the trigger. If you want to try to refute that, go ahead, but then go and ask those instructors the same question...

You are right, the folks who are new to guns need to know this: If the trigger is pulled (by anything) it will discharge. But you also need to understand that what you are calling BS, is quite the opposite.


*what I fixed for you

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 7, 2012, 02:24 AM
What's funny is that in ALL my years of shooting and reading/writing on gun message boards, I don't think I've EVER read or heard of a single instance of a Sig DA/SA ND.

Not that they haven't happened. I am sure they do. But, it's a very rare event.

I know of one story off the top of my head involving a SIG that was posted here it two people ND'ed the thing at the same place with the same gun.

Likewise, I've never heard of a ND from a Sig P250.

Cause who even uses that gun anyway?

Agsalaska
May 7, 2012, 02:40 AM
I have seen two guns AD in my life. one was a gun on video do the impossible. The video evidence was enough to clear the guy holding the gun "it was not his" of any wrongdoing. It is clear as day. Am I a liar???? If you think so I could care less. You are the ignorant one.


And OP. Something probably pulled the trigger. I am glad you are ok and get well soon.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 06:47 AM
1911Tuner, you may be a moderator but you're full of BS with your 'you pulled the trigger' crap. When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

First...When a hammer follows a slide and the gun fires, there's something bad wrong with the gun. That's so rare that I've only seen it happen once in all my years...and it can happen with any self-loader...rifle or pistol. The 1911 doesn't have the market cornered. That's the reason for Rule 2. To wit: "Keep it pointed in a safe direction."

But we weren't talking about weapon malfunctions. I'll restate what I said so you won't lose it in the other text, or ignore it as the case may be.

"If you shoot yourself in the foot, etc. while drawing or reholstering your pistol, you pulled the trigger." This, whether your realized it or not...or whether or not you're willing to admit it.

If stating that simple, commonly known fact is a "piss poor" response...then I guess I'm guilty.

The above statement applies to any sidearm. Of course, we can probably go ahead and exclude the Japanese Nambu since it's a good bet that nobody actually carries them any more.

If you're unable to teach yourself to keep your finger clear of the trigger during the draw or reholstering...maybe golf is a better choice for your Sunday afternoon recreation.

I used to think DA auto was a solution to a non-existing problem, but now I see I was wrong. Some folks need extra protection from themselves.

I wholeheartedly agree...and I've met some of these people on the firing range. It's unsettling. Many times I've been thankful for the cinder block dividers between the pistol bays at PHA.

Let's try to apply a little logic instead of knee-jerk. If the 1911 pistol were so inherently dangerous to handle, it would have been abandoned long ago instead of dominating the IDPA/USPSA arena.

45_auto
May 7, 2012, 07:58 AM
And the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger is made up BS.

I agree, that number is total BS. I've been actively involved in pistol training and pistol matches since 1975, and I can tell you for a fact that 1911Tuner left off a few decimal places. The actual percentage of ND's caused by a finger on the trigger is 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 08:15 AM
45auto...

*gigglesnort*

Look out, lad! You can become something of a pariah for injecting facts into an emotional discussion.

Pilot
May 7, 2012, 08:22 AM
Interesting to see a poster refer to his Negligent Discharge as an "AD". To me there are NO AD's, only ND's. If you didn't pull the trigger, something YOU ALLOWED to be in the way did. It is your fault, not the gun's, or the holster's or your clothing's.

Totally agree with Tuner.

Axel Larson
May 7, 2012, 10:51 AM
It is kind of funny that you called the other side not that hgihroad right now, now I disagree with how he choose to argue with you but neither side is being highroad so lets just open a new thread if you want to discuss the 1911 and nds/ads. For the record if you look at my post I did say that it was a ND I was at least partially responsible if not completely, still thank you for those who did not imply that I was a complete idiot for making a mistake(even if I feel like one). to 1911 tuner I get your point but you also do not come across that well. who moderates the moderators tone and if they are being highroad. especially thanks to Rail Driver and others who gave helpful information instead of going off on side arguments. I am guessing this thread is going to be locked down soon but thanks again to those who gave helpful information.
Also the round was a FMJ.

Nushif
May 7, 2012, 10:55 AM
To me there are NO AD's, only ND's.

I'm sure they exist. I mean there is guns that are unsafe by virtue of being broke, rusted, you name it.
ADs exist. But I would say the vast majority of "discharges less than intended" are probably NDs.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 11:14 AM
1911 tuner I get your point but you also do not come across that well.

Hmm. I asked you to perform a few function checks to see if you had a malfunction in the system...then I tried to address several misconceptions about how the gun functions and respond to the claims that the design is so dangerous that we shouldn't even load one and carry it.

I cited one of the rules about keeping our finger off the trigger unless and until the shooter is prepared for, and is fully expectant for the gun to fire. A rule so oft-repeated, and it has become a mantra. A well-understood rule.

I kept it High Road until the flak started bursting around my fuselage, and responded in kind as gently as I could, and finally...fairly in desperation...suggested that proper training and discipline would negate the dangers of shooting our toes off while handling guns. Again...a mantra heard everywhere, and very likely repeated by the very people who are insisting that the 1911 is prone to suddenly and spontaneously bust one even with the trigger left untouched...

And I didn't come across very well.

I give up.

The 1911 is so inherently dangerous that we shouldn't even load one and carry it.

Theah! Now we can all be friends again.

Axel Larson
May 7, 2012, 11:25 AM
For the record I have nothing against the 1911, I may even carry one again at some point and yes thank you for the malfunction check I will perform them when I bring myself to hold the gun again. Yet sometimes it is best to let people have their opinions. It is more the fact that you implied that anyone who disagreed with you was an idiot that was less than highroad. Now I agree that most guns can be safe if you treat them right and obey the 4 rules, I have a tokarev without any safety other than the trigger and half cock. it is a fun little 9mm and have carried it before and never had a ND or AD with it and it is only a single action.
If some people choose to carry a double/single action with a decocker that is their right and choice as of now I do not blame the gun, but myself.

Rail Driver
May 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Now I agree that guns in good repair are safe if you obey the 4 rules

Fixed that for you.

A person only shoots themselves in one of three situations -

1. The gun malfunctions (accidental discharge)
2. The user does NOT follow the 4 rules (negligent discharge)
3. The user shoots his/her self purposefully (no comment needed)

There are exceptions to everything, but this is about as cut and dried as it gets.

1911Tuner was not implying that anyone that disagreed with him was an idiot, but to be completely honest with you - What he said is 100% true and spot on - anyone that disagrees with what he said IS lacking in either common sense or intelligence. Ignorance is no excuse for anything but learning.

SlamFire1
May 7, 2012, 11:42 AM
I am glad to hear that you were not hurt worse.

There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

M1911’s were designed to be carried round in the chamber, hammer down in the flap holster. Original WW1 era pistols had wide hammer spurs to assist thumb cocking and the grip safety did not interfere with access to the hammer. Enough accidental discharges occurred lowering the hammer that the SOP became cocked and locked, in the flap holster. Jeff Cooper and the combat types started carrying the things cocked and locked in waist bands, open top holsters, and they even disable the grip safety. Beavertail grip safeties make it just about impossible to safely decock the thing by lowering the hammer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/M1911SAbeavertailcloseup.jpg

Ever since I had the safety wipe off on a M1911 I have been leery of the things as carry firearms.

I feel much more confident carrying this M642. This configuration is very fool proof.

And yes, I consider myself in the fool, or future fool category. It is not if you have an ND, it is a matter of when. I have bumped off the 1.5 pound trigger on my centerfire bolt target rifle. I was at 600 yards prone, I closed the bolt with my right hand and my third finger was sticking out. It got jammed between the back of the trigger and trigger guard. Pulling the finger out caused a ND. That cost me 10 points darn it.

I also have had ND's with my Anschutz small bore rifle. These things have five ounce triggers and you have to really concentrate on what you are doing as you take up the first stage. You also have to teach yourself not to rest the finger on the trigger waiting for wind gusts to die down. Thankfully all of these have been at rifle matches while I was on the firing line and all rounds went downrange. With a pistol, I want to make it as difficult for myself to have the first pistol ND.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/M624CentennialAirweight.jpg

If I were to carry an autopistol I want something like this SIG, no external safeties, a decocker. First shot either a long, heavy double action pull, or you thumb cock it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/SigP220.jpg

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 11:43 AM
Enough accidental discharges occurred lowering the hammer that the SOP became cocked and locked, in the flap holster

I don't think military SOP was ever cocked and locked in a flap holster. I believe it was hammer down on empty chamber. Now, whether SOP was obeyed is a different story.

But, I could be wrong.

denton
May 7, 2012, 11:47 AM
the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger...

76.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

loneviking
May 7, 2012, 12:10 PM
I'm not saying that 1911s aren't a good gun,but I am saying that they are not a gun for new shooters nor for someone that doesn't reguarly train with them.

Slamfires post is one I would highly recommend any first time gun buyer or someone new to CCW to consider.

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2012, 12:10 PM
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/M1911SAbeavertailcloseup.jpg..


I've never been a fan of the huge and most times ambidextrous thumb safeties on the Browning type SA's. I'm not saying this was or is any sort of culprit but just a personal preference.

SlamFire1
May 7, 2012, 12:22 PM
I don't think military SOP was ever cocked and locked in a flap holster. I believe it was hammer down on empty chamber. Now, whether SOP was obeyed is a different story.

But, I could be wrong.

By the time you get to Vietnam the Army was not allowing a magazine in the M1911 till you were in the combat area and sure as heck was not allowing a round in the chamber till you were on the ground in your drop off zone.

The SOP changed and changed.

A Vietnam Company Commander told me of an junior Officer who shot another junior Officer with a M1911. They were playing quick draw. That was the only 1911 ND he had heard of from the 70's.


I've never been a fan of the huge and most times ambidextrous thumb safeties on the Browning type SA's. I'm not saying this was or is any sort of culprit but just a personal preference.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

loose noose
May 7, 2012, 12:25 PM
As a Police Officer in Southern California, when we went to .45s, I carried mine locked and cocked and never had a problem. In fact I still carry it the same way today. I remember one day at the range as we were all requalifying,one of the officers .45s went full auto all down range. that was neither a ND or an AD it was a firearms malfunction. Note we qualified once a month at that time. The problem with the Officers gun was the sear broke: however the gun didn't go off on it's own the Officer initially pulled the trigger in a safe direction. I agree with 1911 Tuner, 99% of all NDs are caused by the shooter, note that at least 150-200 Officers shot at least once a month and to my knowledge no ADs or NDs ever occurred during my time on the force which was over 20 years.

SSN Vet
May 7, 2012, 12:46 PM
Sorry to hear about your mishap Axel... and hope you heal up quickly with no complications or permanent loss.

FWIW, here's my take on NDs. And no, I'm not an expert. I have, however, never had an ND in some 35 years of gun handling (the first 5 of which were very irresponsible). So perhaps that counts for something....

So here's Matt's Maxims on NDs....

1. You must always RESPECT firearms.
2. Never "play with guns" (which is the #1 cause of NDs and injuries imho)
3. Murphey's army is out to get you 24/7, and you must always be thinking about "what could go wrong in this situation"
4. The 4 rules have to be deeply ingrained into your psyche.
5. Have zero tolerance for fools with guns.
6. Don't assume that a complete stranger is not a fool and don't assume a complete strangers firearm is functioning correctly.'
7. Excessive gun handling, fondling, showing off, etc... increases the opportunities for an accident.
8. There are lot's of opportunities for things to go wrong when putting a gun in a holster or taking it out of a holster.... or when loading or unloading.... extra caution and strict trigger finger discipline and muzzle control are needed when doing these operations.
9. Unless you have mechanical aptitude and are willing to study and learn, and you thoroughly know the platform in your hands, don't play gunsmith. If you do play gunsmith, be careful who you accept advice from, and be willing to stop and seek experienced help if things aren't goin the way you anticipated.

These principles have kept me out of trouble, and kept me from hurting myself and anyone else with a firearm.

I regret some of the really stupid and irresponsible things I did with BB guns and my dad's shotgun when I was a kid. Fortunately, I lived long enough to mend my ways.

7thCavScout
May 7, 2012, 01:52 PM
Axel, I think it takes a lot of courage to come on here and fess up about what happened. I would just like to say thank you for the reminder of what can happen. I hope you heal up soon my friend.
-Chuck

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 7, 2012, 02:16 PM
There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

If you're talking about Tex Grebner, he pulled the trigger and you can see it.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

That's why you put your thumb on top of the safety when shooting to keep it down.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 03:56 PM
Ever since I had the safety wipe off on a M1911 I have been leery of the things as carry firearms.

At the risk of drawing more fire, I'll address this one, too.

That can be unnerving, but the grip safety still works to block the trigger and the gun requires that the gun be held in a firing grip in order to deactivate it...and because the half-cock notch is still in play, the sear would literally have to spontaneously crumble into bits before the gun would discharge in a holster.

The thumb safety was added for reholstering in a mad rush...not for carrying. (Flame suit on)

The 1910 prototypes that Browning first submitted didn't even have a manual safety. He relied on the grip safety and the half-cock. The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, bucking horse could place the gun on-safe...reholster...and free up both hands for the task. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to...wait for it...here it comes...might forget to remove his finger from the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

And, here's a picture of it. One of two of the original eight left in existence.

1910 Colt courtesy of Charles W. Clawson.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/1910.gif

CZguy
May 7, 2012, 04:15 PM
Quote:
the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger...

76.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Now that's just not true. I make up most of my statics well in advance. :D

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 04:16 PM
There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

Tex was using one of those retention holsters that releases with the trigger finger in the trigger guard. Can't remember the name offhand. As he drew, the gun didn't completely release due to a holster malfunction. His hand was pulling the pistol upward...it came to an abrupt halt...and his finger entered the trigger guard as the gun cleared leather.

Watch the video again. He explains what happened.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

There's another one that I've never seen except on a badly-fitted safety...and only once. Oddly enough, it was a Les Baer Stinger that belonged to the wife of a retired Secret Service agent, now raising horses in Pilot Mountain, NC. They sent it back to Les, and it came back...not fixed. They brought it to me and the cure took all of 15 minutes.

sansone
May 7, 2012, 04:47 PM
for the op: I'm sorry about your accident and hope you heal well and fast sir.
It make little difference (AD or ND) except that the reason be known to you.

for mister Tuner: I avoid being a kiss*** but after reading your posts 3 times,
there is only "high road" responses in them. Anonymity causes less than polite responses where no repercussion exists

GLOOB
May 7, 2012, 05:02 PM
Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.
There's another one that I've never seen except on a badly-fitted safety...and only once. Oddly enough, it was a Les Baer Stinger
I guess you don't watch Top Shot. Former Seal, Jake, managed to accidentally put a 1911 on safe in the middle of a shooting string. :)

Tex Grebner ND:
My own opinion is that manual safeties (esp with light triggers) lead to more ND's. Here's my theory. The human brain can only consciously do so many things at once. The more steps you add, the more you develop and rely on muscle memory. Muscle memory is dumb. It lumps a bunch of different things together as one, and it doesn't know the four rules. When the situation changes, it might trug along, anyway. Or if you get confused, it might skip or mix some steps. Keeping things simple leaves less to muscle memory and more to analytical thinking.

In other words, when someone has an ND (not saying the OP didn't have an AD) with a 1911, and someone responds with "all you have to do is keep your finger off the trigger," I agree. I also think that doing so is easier when that's ALL you have to do. When you have to do X and Z but NOT Y, then it's easier to screw up.

I have a handgun with no decocker on it, which I have slowly and deliberately practiced decocking hundreds of times. When I am giving it my full attention, it is completely safe. There are only 5 basic steps. And yet when I'm dryfiring it and decocking it without my full attention, muscle memory takes over. And it is often wrong! I've caught my trigger finger on the trigger before the hammer was completely blocked. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but my muscle memory sure seems to look for shortcuts when I'm not watching.

I believe that once things started going wrong, Tex's muscle memory went on autopilot. He had already flicked the safety off, had already started the draw, and now his finger was looking for the trigger, even though it was all out of order.

My friend has had a 1911 for almost a year. Has been shooting Glocks for almost 3. The other day we went shooting, and were both wearing holsters. There was some cans set out, and I was bored, so I suggested some quickdraw shots. I see my friend going for the holster, then stopping. A confused look on his face. I prompt him. "Put the safety on." Ok, click. "Put the gun in the holster." Uh, ok. Done. Ok, I go. Draw, bang, miss. "Your turn." He draws. Takes a two handed grip. Looks at his gun. Takes the safety off. You can see the gears turning. La dee dah. Finally takes aim and shoots. Brilliant to me that he was so careful. But it illustrates that with more going on, it takes more time and effort to use a gun with a manual safety. Your brain has to jive each step with the 4 rules, and figure out how to complete the puzzle, efficiently, and yet without breaking any rules. And in the process you have to make some decisions, many of them somewhat arbitrary, if you think about it. (I can think of at least 4-5 safe sequences in drawing and firing a gun with a manual safety and as many wrong ways. And arbitrary decisions are often the hardest to make under stress.) That is, until you get your muscle memory. One day, he'll have that muscle memory. And he'll be one step closer to an ND.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 05:21 PM
Oh, I didn't say that it couldn't happen. I said that I've never had it happen...nor have I seen it happen except for that Baer...and I've handled a buncha 1911 pistols. Of course, with those heavy batwing safeties, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Extended slidestops have also been known to bounce from inertia and stop slides in mid-stroke. That doesn't mean that it's a common occurrence.

Interestingly, the Stinger didn't do that trick when I fired it. When the lady ran it, she couldn't get through a whole magazine without the safety engaging. It wasn't a full engagement, though. Just enough to block the sear.

And, no. I don't watch Top Shot very much.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 05:26 PM
Tuner: I avoid being a kiss*** but after reading your posts 3 times,
there is only "high road" responses in them.

'Preciate it, sansone...but I'm used to it. You shoulda seen the storm after I suggested that Browning didn't design the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked...and that he intended for the half-cock to be used as a safe carry mode. Hoo boy! That was a ride. ;)

Hammerdown77
May 7, 2012, 05:28 PM
There are a lot of badly fitted safeties on 1911s.

The reason they are a problem is because most people don't understand how a safety is supposed to be fitted, so they don't recognize it as a potential problem.

Also related to the thumb safety of a 1911, anyone who is going to carry a 1911 cocked and locked really, REALLY needs to be educated in their holster selection. There are quite a few holsters out there that do not protect the thumb safety, and if they do, are not indented (or "boned") in such a way as to hold it in the "on" position while holstered. Look for a holster that will protect the thumb safety from being bumped "off". Also, ambidextrous safeties are much easier to bump off than single sided safeties. That makes sense, the right side safety is constantly being brushed by your arm, the seat in your car, or whatever else you might bump into.

Also, with regard to the hammer following the slide and causing an "accidental discharge", well, that would only happen if the half cock notch had broken off, the sear nose had broken off, or you had your finger on or even near the trigger when the slide slammed home. Two of those things are catastrophic parts failures and will almost never happen (I didn't say never, I said almost never). The third is operator error, which makes it a ND, not an AD. I've had the hammer follow a slide on several occasions, on a couple of different pistols. Each and every time, the half cock notch caught the hammer on the sear. And I didn't have my finger on the trigger. No go bang.

From some of these posts it seems there are people who really don't understand how a 1911 works, despite reading about them on forums, owning one or more, or even "working" on them. 1911Tuner ain't one of them. And disputing incorrect information, myths, and falsehoods is not "not being High Road". It's being a service to others who are here to learn.

To the OP, I'm glad you weren't more seriously hurt. Definitely get that gun looked at by a respected 1911 pistolsmith. Not just any gunsmith, someone who knows 1911s. And re-examine your holster choice. It may not be the best for carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Good luck to you.

Ryanxia
May 7, 2012, 06:02 PM
Scary thought. Especially not really understanding where the fault lies (as you said thought your finger was off the trigger) so you can't really determine if it's a mechanical malfunction or just booger hook on the boom stick.
Glad you're ok.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 06:14 PM
Hammerdown...Even a hammer that follows all the way down isn't going to fire a round. The hammer rides the center rail in the slide, and is only released at the last .100 inch of slide travel as it goes to battery. It can't hit the firing pin hard enough to light a primer.

For burst-fire/full auto to occur, two conditions have to be present. The disconnect has to malfunction...fail to disconnect the sear and the trigger...and the hammer has to hold at full cock and get jarred off as the slide goes to battery. A simple followdown won't do it.

Several years ago, I demonstrated the function of the fire control group to a skeptical soul by using a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from a sear crown. Not only did it hold full cock and function normally for over 30 rounds before the hammer started to follow...when it did follow the slide, the butchered sear caught the half-cock notch and a round never fired.

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2012, 06:42 PM
I think 90% of (well.. perhaps close enough for me) all coveted .22 pistols are "SA".

Hammerdown77
May 7, 2012, 07:02 PM
Hammerdown...Even a hammer that follows all the way down isn't going to fire a round. The hammer rides the center rail in the slide, and is only released at the last .100 inch of slide travel as it goes to battery. It can't hit the firing pin hard enough to light a primer.

For burst-fire/full auto to occur, two conditions have to be present. The disconnect has to malfunction...fail to disconnect the sear and the trigger...and the hammer has to hold at full cock and get jarred off as the slide goes to battery. A simple followdown won't do it.

Several years ago, I demonstrated the function of the fire control group to a skeptical soul by using a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from a sear crown. Not only did it hold full cock and function normally for over 30 rounds before the hammer started to follow...when it did follow the slide, the butchered sear caught the half-cock notch and a round never fired.
Yessir, you are absolutely right. I should have made the distinction between a hammer following the slide, and a hammer that is jarred loose from full cock after the slide slams home and the disconnector not doing its job. Two different things.

I have had one burst fire on me, and I thought the hammer had "followed". What I came to realize was the combination of a very very short trigger reset, a 3 lb. trigger, and somewhat cold hands had all contributed to the trigger being pressed again the instant the slide slammed home. Pesky inertia! Put one in the ceiling at the range, too. Scared the poo out of me. Not real proud of that one.

But there was nothing "wrong" with the gun. It was just doing what I told it to do, even though I didn't really mean to tell it to fire with the muzzle still pointed in the air....

EddieNFL
May 7, 2012, 07:47 PM
The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen.

Funny how it never happens until someone picks it up. "I didn't know it was loaded! I didn't even touch the trigger! It just went off."

When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

Firearms don't neglect their upkeep, select poorly designed holsters, drop themselves or reach out and grab clothing. All are NDs and responsibility lies with the operator.

I guess you don't watch Top Shot. Former Seal, Jake, managed to accidentally put a 1911 on safe in the middle of a shooting string.

I have witnessed that a number of times. Once the shooter learned the proper hold the problem disappeared.

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 08:28 PM
When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

You actually saw that happen...or you're taking somebody's word for it? I'll let you come and bang any of my pistols...and I've got about 40 here...against a wall with the hammer down on chambered round 'til your arm goes numb. Name a day, and I'll put the coffee on.

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I believe the Kahr Auto Ordnance uses a Series 80-type passive firing pin safety. With that design, pulling the trigger releases the firing pin block...and unless it's released, the firing pin is actively prevented from moving forward. Again...are you taking somebody's word for all this mysterious go-bang?


Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

And the trigger still got pulled...whether the operator meant to or was even aware of it.

Note that it happens with Glocks and even Sigs if the pistol is jammed into a holster with something in the trigger guard...like a finger...but with a manual safety that mechanically blocks the sear release, it's just not gonna happen.

Hammerdown...I also arranged a demonstration for the hammer follow claim of burst-fire. I assembled the gun without the sear and disconnect...locked a magazine in with one round...and tripped the slide from lockback. Nothing happened, as predicted.

The guy had me repeat it about 10 times before he was convinced. Some people refuse to believe even their own eyes.

JRH6856
May 7, 2012, 08:29 PM
When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

:scrutiny:

Not one of the above implications is valid. :banghead:

In another thread, there is a discussion of the myths perpetuated by the anti-gun crowd due to their ignorance of firearms. The sad thing is that the ignorance of the pro-gun crowd is often as bad or worse. :(

It isn't what we don't know that is the problem, it's what we think we know that just ain't so.

EddieNFL
May 7, 2012, 08:47 PM
The sad thing is that the ignorance of the pro-gun crowd is often as bad or worse.

Sometimes, we're our own enemy.

WinThePennant
May 7, 2012, 09:19 PM
Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off. Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If you want a .45 ACP that is SAFE and perhaps the finest pistol ever made, then get a Sig P220. If you don't like the "heavy" initial DA pull, then send it back to Sig and get the Action Enhancement Package.

shep854
May 7, 2012, 09:20 PM
Despite the occasional warmth, this is a great thread--if it causes some honest self-assessment, it's a good thing!

Regarding the Colt Government Model, my first handgun was a Combat Commander. I carried it for a while, until I was unable to give it the dedicated practice I feel is necessary to handle it safely; I have had one ND from trying to lower the hammer, and nearly gut-shot myself (with a Flying Ashtray!) once when I got careless practicing fast draws. THESE INCIDENTS WERE NOT DUE TO THE PISTOL'S SHORTCOMINGS!!! Responsibility was entirely mine; I chalked them up to "expensive lessons learned cheaply". When I carried C&L, I chose holsters that had an under-hammer thumbstrap; I just felt better with that. Nowadays, I pocket carry an S&W M49.

BTW, I have a Kahr/A-O 'GI' .45 that lacks a firing-pin safety; and there's no provision either.

When I read of complaints of 'unreliable, unsafe' GM's, I can't help but wonder at how far makers have wandered from JMB's original creation.

Hammerdown77
May 7, 2012, 09:26 PM
Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off. Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If you want a .45 ACP that is SAFE and perhaps the finest pistol ever made, then get a Sig P220. If you don't like the "heavy" initial DA pull, then send it back to Sig and get the Action Enhancement Package.
Gun forums are also filled with people who probably ought not to be handling firearms :)

1911Tuner
May 7, 2012, 09:36 PM
Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off.

Gun forums are filled with all sorts of stories. One of my favorites that I hear occasionally is the 1911 that blew up because it fired out of battery. Couldn't have been a double charge. It must have been the gun. But, when a full understanding of how the gun functions...or more precisely understanding what the gun can and can't do...you can respond with the facts. That being that the pistol won't fire far enough out of battery to blow up. It's mechanically impossible.

Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If that's your belief, you're welcome to it, and nobody is going to change your mind...but there are literally millions of 1911 pistols being handled...and handled roughly...every year, without incident. I maintain that if they were that dangerous, the shooting public would have abandoned them years ago. The carnage would have been horrendous.

Gun forums are also filled with people who probably ought not to be handling firearms

Clearly...

EddieNFL
May 7, 2012, 09:39 PM
I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

Well, I won't post my first thought, but the second was, why on earth would a rational person "like" an unsafe firearm? That defies logic.

I carried it for a while, until I was unable to give it the dedicated practice I feel is necessary to handle it safely

"A man's got to know his limitation." Unfortunately, many blame their limitations on inanimate objects.

ScottieG59
May 7, 2012, 09:40 PM
I have had a few "almost" moments to be reminded how easy it is to have a negligent discharge.

I carry Glocks primarily and I am very careful about reholstering.

I have been carrying concealed for over 30 years and I am still careful.

I hope you get past the confidence issue. Professional training may help. People often do not notice what they do wrong and other eyes will help.

shep854
May 7, 2012, 09:43 PM
Actually, the main reason I got away from my Commander was that I went to pocket carry. Should I start holster-carry again, it will get a lot of practice, then back on my belt...I LIKE the GM.

EddieNFL
May 7, 2012, 09:48 PM
...but there are literally millions of 1911 pistols being handled...and handled roughly...every year, without incident.

When I was active we had a saying,"Ninety percent of your problems are caused by ten percent of your troops." No different in the firearms world, I guess. Most make a conscious effort to be safe. Others, not so much, or try to "buy" safety. Unfortunately, a idiot with a 1911 will be an idiot with (insert brand here).

GLOOB
May 7, 2012, 10:38 PM
I maintain that if they were that dangerous, the shooting public would have abandoned them years ago.
Nah. They've been grandfathered in. ;)
It's like a stick shift car. I can drive em just fine. Did for years and i prefer them where possible. But they're just not as easy for most uninitiated to learn. Not saying that a 1911 is inherently dangerous. Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs. ;)

ball3006
May 7, 2012, 10:41 PM
.................................................................................as Red would say.....chris3

EddieNFL
May 7, 2012, 10:51 PM
Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs.

Maybe JMB had a secondary role in mind for the 1911: cleansing the gene pool.

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 11:01 PM
Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs.

.....I would say there are plenty of other designs that would have more NDs.....

wally
May 8, 2012, 12:12 AM
they realized that a man under stress might forget to...wait for it...here it comes...might forget to remove his finger from the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster
But he'd certainly remember to apply the thumb safety before doing so?

WinThePennant
May 8, 2012, 12:33 AM
.....I would say there are plenty of other designs that would have more NDs.....
I agree.

I love my Glocks, but I think they are unsafe in the hands of most casual users. Why? I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.

Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

That said, I like the 1911. I've shot a few, and enjoyed them immensely. But, you'll never see one in my house.

Certaindeaf
May 8, 2012, 12:38 AM
Wally,
It would perhaps be advisable.

JRH6856
May 8, 2012, 01:27 AM
...humans are, by nature, error prone.

I think any gun is potentially unsafe in the hands of a casual user. Why? Because any gun is potentially unsafe in the hands of an experienced user. (see quote) The key is in the hands of.

So yes, people should learn the manual of arms for their weapon, train more, practice more, and pay more attention to the rules so as to hopefully reduce the potential for unsafe action that exists due to human error.

doc2rn
May 8, 2012, 01:50 AM
side safety was on

If the safety was ingaged and it still went off you have a 1911 that needs servicing! Mechanical pieces can and do break, often when we are least attentive. In this instance no one was mortally wounded and thats a good thing.
What you should take away from this is treat all firearms as the mechanically complex tools they are. I would also get a bucket of sand to do my unloading while pointing in a safe direction. In case you decide to keep that particular 1911.
This is yet another reason why I prefer my revolver to my semi-auto.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2012, 05:15 AM
But he'd certainly remember to apply the thumb safety before doing so?

Well...there ain't any guarantees that anybody will remember to do anything at any time under any conditions, Wally...but that's why the safety was added.

Davek1977
May 8, 2012, 05:19 AM
I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.


My Sigma aslo requires a trigger pull to remove the slide, and i don't have nay issue whatsoever with this. If I'm to the point of field stripping my weapon, its chamber has been been checked and likely double and triple checked, both visually and by feel before I'd dream of taking it apart. Guns are not error-proof, nor should they be. People need to exercise the utmost care when handling them. If a person is incapable, they simply should not handle firearms. The fact the trigger must be pulled in order to facilitate disassembly should not cause a moment of concern for anyone who practices and lives by the 4 rules. When i come in possession of a firearm, not a second passes without me verifying its condition, whether it be loaded or unloaded, chambered or not. I certainly don't begin the disaasembly process without doing the same. Humans may be 'error-prone" but if you are so error-prone as to handle firearms in such a manner that it puts you or others at risk, maybe you shouldn't be handling firearms. Multiple safeties and heavy trigger pulls aren't effective safeties, regardless of design. The only safety one can fully trust is between your ears, and if that ones faulty, you have no business behind the trigger....ANY trigger, no matter how heavy or how many safeties one must manipulate to fire it

GLOOB
May 8, 2012, 06:41 AM
I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design
I certainly wouldn't call it a feature. If it could have been avoided, all the better. But compared to the extraneous addition of a decocking button on a Walther PPS or an M&P with a decocking tool stuffed into the frame, I have to say I prefer the Glock method!

Tell me you don't safety check your 1911 before you put your hand over the muzzle to remove the barrel bushing. :)

A lot of people actually pull the trigger with muzzle in a safe direction as the final part of their safety check. I've seen Hickok45 do this dozens of times, even with a 1911 :). I've also seen this as part of "showing clear" at the end of a shooting stage. I've also read an account of this being standard procedure for a certain serviceman before turning in a sidearm in his time with the Air Force. I don't have this habit, personally. But it really shows that pulling a trigger on a safety checked firearm doesn't have to be a big deal, seeing as how some people see it as a GOOD thing and would be doing it anyway. For the final icing on the cake, I bet the majority of us dryfire a firearm more often than we clean one.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2012, 06:49 AM
Davek...Just so. We get into trouble when we get careless...when we forget. This applies to any potentially dangerous implement. Gun...knife...car...chain saw...name it. If it can hurt you, it will hurt you if you get careless. When our attention wanders, all bets are off.

While I don't doubt that some of the things claimed can happen, and have happened...the vast majority of unintentional/unexpected discharges happen because somebody pulled the trigger on a loaded gun. That they didn't realize it or didn't mean to isn't relevant. The gun does what it's told to do. It's a machine.

The other part of the issue is that there are many people who are unwilling or unable to admit that they did something stupid, and will steadfastly maintain that the gun malfunctioned in spite of close examination after the fact...with the gun getting a clean bill of health on all counts.

That's why I ran through a few safety function tests for the OP in order to eliminate the possibility of a mechanical failure...even though a few of them wouldn't have made any difference if the trigger hadn't been pulled.

John Browning wasn't an idiot. The 1911 has redundant safety features, and the likelihood that all of them failed at the same time is so remote that it can be discounted for all practical purposes. Even a manual safety that is unknowingly wiped off in the holster means nothing as long as the trigger doesn't get tickled. This is easily proven by cocking an empty pistol and carrying it around in a holster for a month. At the end of the month, the pistol will still be cocked unless the owner grips the pistol and pulls the trigger. It all comes back to operator error.

In the final analysis, all the safety features of any gun can fail, and the gun will remain stable...unless the trigger gets pulled. No manual safety...not even a long, heavy trigger...takes the place of safe gun handling, and anyone who trusts one to prevent a tragedy is taking a losing bet.

Another mantra...and a good one...is: "The real safety is between your ears."

Bottom line:

"Is gun. Gun not safe."

shep854
May 8, 2012, 08:56 AM
There's also the problem of being distracted and either forgetting or getting critical steps of procedure out of order.
I have a friend (a safety and firearms instructor, no less) who lost a leg when he let himself become distracted while unloading a 12-ga shotgun prior to cleaning.
There's also the classic 'rack slide, drop mag' fumble--magazine safety, anyone?:p

Point is, NO MATTER WHAT flavor of gun you prefer; if you don't pay attention it will bite you!

Buckeyeguy525
May 8, 2012, 09:18 AM
Wow, Im really glad to hear that it didnt turn out as bad as it could have. I have had an ND myself (personal negligence) and it has definitely made me a better gun owner as I am now OCD about gun safety and checking the chamber. I hope you are able to pull some positives from the experience as well

1911Tuner
May 8, 2012, 09:22 AM
Point is, NO MATTER WHAT flavor of gun you prefer; if you don't pay attention it will bite you!

Absolutely spot on.

At least part of the problem is the fairly recent practice of referring to the gun as: "My new toy" or "My little friend." I think that leads to complacency.

That pistol on your belt isn't a toy and it sure as hell ain't your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and should be regarded as hostile whenever you have your hand on it.

FuzzyBunny
May 8, 2012, 09:56 AM
Just a thought.
If that EMT ever gets mugged, robbed or raped. She will join the NRA and buy a mess of guns and promise herself she will not be a victim again.

Hammerdown77
May 8, 2012, 01:35 PM
I agree.

I love my Glocks, but I think they are unsafe in the hands of most casual users. Why? I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.

Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

That said, I like the 1911. I've shot a few, and enjoyed them immensely. But, you'll never see one in my house.
You know, you say that, but many box stock 1911s come from the factory with a 5lb or greater trigger pull. A Glock has a 5.5 lb trigger pull from the factory. Most people put a different connector in them so that they have a 4.5 to 4 lb. trigger pull. And that's without two external safeties that have to be manually deactivated before the gun will ever fire.

The 1911s issued to our military typically had heavier trigger pulls. Like 6 lbs or greater. The angles of the full cock notch on the hammer were cut such that pulling the trigger actually moved the hammer backward against mainspring tension, making for a heavy trigger pull. This was added for "safety", to keep the sear captive, and to pull it back up under the hammer hooks if the trigger was pressed slightly but not enough to fully release the hammer.

Now, if you start including 1911s that have had trigger jobs to get the pull down to 4 lbs or less in your analysis, that's different. But I still contend that in the hands of someone who understands how to handle a 1911, it is no less safe than any other pistol/revolver.

People putting their fingers on the trigger when they shouldn't, and re-holstering with something in the holster (like a thumb break strap, pull cord from a jacket or windbreaker, etc.) are the number one reasons people shoot themselves in the leg when carrying ANY semi-auto pistol.

allaroundhunter
May 8, 2012, 02:41 PM
But compared to the extraneous addition of a decocking button on a Walther PPS or an M&P with a decocking tool stuffed into the frame

Is the Glock easier? Yes. Is it more prone to an ND because of how it disassembles? Also, yes. And you do not have to use the tool to lower the sear disengagement lever on the M&P, you can do it with your hand. It actually is very fast, and for those who can get careless, it requires you to check the chamber before you do anything stupid.....like pulling the trigger.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2012, 03:00 PM
Hammerdown just touched on something that I've been talking about for years.

With an original spec pistol, the hammer hooks were fairly long and cut undersquare, with a sear crown that sets deeply into the hammer. That results in a hammer that actually moves back a bit past full cock before releasing. You can see it by mounting the gun in a vise...setting up a dial indicator on the hammer...and pulling the trigger.

When we start insisting on match-grade trigger actions on carry guns, we wind up with short, square hammer hooks and an escape angle on the sear that cuts hammer hook to sear engagement down to about .015 inch or less...and then we're surprised to learn that all it takes to fire the gun is a light touch on the trigger. It also leads many to believe that it fired on its ownsome.

It's also required to tweak the sear spring to get the pull down to the level so dear to the high-speed/low-drag operators...which can and very often does lead to the hammer following the slide to half-cock when the slide is dropped during a reload.

Why?

Because when the slide slams home, the whole gun is jerked forward. The trigger obeys Newton's dictum about objects standing still...and the trigger stirrup bumps the disconnect, which rolls the sear out of the hooks...either partway or all the way out.

If it only moves partway out, the square hammer hooks don't try to pull it back in, and the shooter is standing there with a fire control that acts like a double set trigger on a Sharps rifle...and will break with mere ounces of force.

If it moves all the way out, and everything is working like it should, the sear resets and grabs the half-cock notch. If not...it follows the slide all the way down and causes the casual observer to run in circles, screaming about how dangerous 1911s are.

If the trigger smith has also installed a trigger that reduces the pre-travel, the pull distance is shortened even further. All this adds up to a distinct liability on a carry gun.

When we work to create such trigger actions, we're essentially taking the hammer, sear, and sear spring out of spec. It's fine in the controlled environment of the target range...but not for a street gun.

I won't carry one with such a trigger. Not because I can't keep my finger off of it, but because when adrenalin is pumping, I may not even realize that I'm applying pressure to it.

GLOOB
May 8, 2012, 03:20 PM
You know, you say that, but many box stock 1911s come from the factory with a 5lb or greater trigger pull. A Glock has a 5.5 lb trigger pull from the factory.
Agree. Today's "milspec" 1911 generally have a 5-6 lb trigger pull. So let's say the trigger pull is the same weight as a stock Glock. But the Glock trigger is many times longer. This means is takes more work to fire. It absorbs more impact before going off. The loaded 9mm Glock is also around 50% lighter than a loaded 45ACP 1911. What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will. The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

*The Glock 21 fully loaded with 230 grainers has a similar weight to a 1911. It does not pass this "test."

Most people put a different connector in [Glocks] so that they have a 4.5 to 4 lb. trigger pull.
Disagree. The vast majority of Glocks come with a 5.5lb trigger pull, and I would put money that the vast majority of these are left stock.

allaroundhunter
May 8, 2012, 03:44 PM
The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

I agree with this, under one instance: The manual safety on the 1911 is disengaged and the grip safety is depressed. If we are talking just swinging the gun with your finger on the trigger (please don't try this anyone, it breaks several of the 4 rules all at once), then I would say the Glock is less forgiving because the longer trigger pull is its only safety.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2012, 03:50 PM
What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will.

And...why would anyone do that with a loaded pistol? I mean, anyone who isn't actually trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

Hammerdown77
May 8, 2012, 03:57 PM
Agree. Today's "milspec" 1911 generally have a 5-6 lb trigger pull. So let's say the trigger pull is the same weight as a stock Glock. But the Glock trigger is many times longer. This means is takes more work to fire. It absorbs more impact before going off. The loaded 9mm Glock is also around 50% lighter than a loaded 45ACP 1911. What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will. The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

I see what you're saying, but for the 1911 to fail that test, the thumb safety would have to be disengaged, and the grip safety would have to be fully depressed. I cannot think of a situation in which both of these things would occur, AND the trigger pulled, other than if someone had a firing grip on the gun and intended the gun to fire. If they didn't intend the gun to fire, then they really screwed up somewhere along the sequence of events and the discharge is not accidental.

I carry a Glock most of the time, but I have also carried 1911s. And I shoot them a lot. I can tell you, I am MUCH more confident holstering and unholstering that 1911 than I am the Glock. The reason being, I know if the thumb safety is on, that 1911 will NOT fire, no matter what I might screw up while holstering/unholstering. With the Glock, I am extra super careful when I holster especially, to make triple sure there is nothing in the way before I put the gun in the holster. The reason being even if I held only the back of the slide and put the gun in the holster, it could still fire if something snagged the trigger. Let's say you holster a 1911 that same way, without a firing grip on the gun. You'd have to defeat two external safeties AND pull the trigger for the gun to fire. Not gonna happen.

Certaindeaf
May 8, 2012, 04:06 PM
In another thread here some time ago, one individual likened the various manuals of arms to an automobile.. saying, "I can get in any car and drive it down the road so there!".
What has been said by many and upon many an occasion throughout the years is to become proficient and or one with one good weapon. So often, one hears of hourly, daily, weekly yadda "rotation" of carry pieces of disparate types.
That's perhaps all well and good save for when that clutch reach or grip angle etc. isn't hardwired into the synapses when the "time" comes.
I mainly use two types of handgun but shoot more of course.

EddieNFL
May 8, 2012, 07:47 PM
Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

Casual attitudes about training and safety and dismissing such talk as blather is what leads to NDs...not light trigger pulls.

JRH6856
May 8, 2012, 09:55 PM
^^^^THIS!

GLOOB
May 9, 2012, 04:13 AM
And...why would anyone do that with a loaded pistol? I mean, anyone who isn't actually trying to shoot themselves in the foot.
A lot of good points in refute of my previous post. I was just trying to illustrate that the average Glock trigger is not the same thing as even a 5-6 lb 1911 trigger.

I think there's a a little bit of a reason why lots of people feel ok to carry a sidearm without a safety, whether it be a DA revolver, a Sig, or even a Glock. Or even a SA semiauto like an XD. But not many people advocate condition 0 carry for a 1911.

Having the external safety is kinda like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it's there, you might as well use it. If you're using it, you might as well have a "better" trigger than guns without a safety. Hence, 1911's with NY triggers aren't selling like hotcakes. :)

I cannot think of a situation in which both of these things would occur, AND the trigger pulled, other than if someone had a firing grip on the gun and intended the gun to fire. It happens all the time. People have ND's with guns despite manual and grip safeties. Most ND's happen with a firing grip. And the one thing in common with all ND's is the person did NOT intend for the gun to fire! :)

BBQLS1
May 9, 2012, 05:07 AM
Alex, I'm glad you are okay. I hope you heal well. Thanks for having the guts to post up your story.

This should be a good reminder that we handle dangerous objects and if we don't handle them properly, they can hurt us or those that we care about.



All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.

Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.



1911Tuner is 100% right. If the gun is not in disrepair, the fault has to lie with the operator. No ifs, ands, buts, or other excuses about it. Glocks, DA revolvers, Sigs, HKs, 1911s, it doesn't matter, when we get complacent, we can cause bad things to happen. If you don't have the humility to accept this, then you might should stand back and examine if you should have a gun or not.

Alex, thanks again. Like I said before, many people's pride would get in the way of them posting a similar story. Get the gun properly checked out and make sure you polish up on the rules. Thanks for having the stones to share.

Kiln
May 9, 2012, 05:57 AM
I almost shot myself in the leg with a single shot derringer drawing and firing at a possum outside the house. Only mine was due to a worn out hammer assembly on a Leinad derringer. I cocked the damn thing and it went off.

1911Tuner
May 9, 2012, 06:42 AM
It happens all the time. People have ND's with guns despite manual and grip safeties. Most ND's happen with a firing grip. And the one thing in common with all ND's is the person did NOT intend for the gun to fire!

And the other thing in common is the trigger.

I have a friend that I love like a brother, but he has this apparently unbreakable habit whenever he handles a gun. His finger goes to the trigger. He religiously observes the other three rules, but for some reason he can't get past this one. In fairness...if he knows that the gun is loaded, he doesn't do it. If he's carrying one, he leaves it holstered. If he doesn't know, he checks and clears the piece...but his finger eventually winds up on the trigger.

He also trusts me to always hand him an unloaded gun, despite my concerns and my admonitions to never trust anybody and to always double-check. It'll get him in trouble one day.

Whenever I hold a 1911 workshop, I use an old Black Army Colt. One of the first things that I do is to pass the warhorse around for everybody to see...and I watch. I do a quick press-check and hand it to the first one. Out of five people sitting at the table, an average of two of the five will double-check the gun. The others trust. Bad habit to get into.

Odd Job
May 9, 2012, 08:01 AM
When we work to create such trigger actions, we're essentially taking the hammer, sear, and sear spring out of spec. It's fine in the controlled environment of the target range...but not for a street gun.

If I remember correctly, that is how Trey Cooley was killed. Somebody fired two rounds instead of one at a range, and the second one escaped between the roof and wall and killed Trey Cooley who was in another building at the range. They had an interesting forensic documentary on how they reconstructed this "accident" because initially nobody could understand how he had been shot. There was no direct line of fire...

Oh, I found it:

http://www.fmgondemand.com/play/QSY3ZX

1911Tuner
May 9, 2012, 08:16 AM
If I remember correctly, that is how Trey Cooley was killed.

Yep. Anything can happen, and scary light triggers on self-loading arms up the risk...but...very often, whenever somebody is negligent, they want badly to blame the gun or the car or the electric caving knife or the vague wording on a warning label.

Ever notice that whenever an LEO ventilates his leg while reholstering a...I won't say it, but you all know the gun I'm referring to...the official statement is always "Weapon Malfunction." Always.

I've also encountered guys on the range who come to wring out their pistols for the first time after paying through the nose for a first-rate trigger job...and light off the first few rounds before they're expecting it. I saw one lock and load with the pistol pointing at an angle and fired as his finger entered the trigger guard, the bullet striking the cinder block divider. He'd been accustomed to the old pre-travel, and when it was about half what it used to be...bang. He was a bit shocked, and his first words were: "Wow! Now that's a good trigger job!"

Reinforcing my belief that the dividers between bays was the best money that PHA ever spent.

*sigh*

Sport45
May 9, 2012, 08:25 AM
I think there's a a little bit of a reason why lots of people feel ok to carry a sidearm without a safety, whether it be a DA revolver, a Sig, or even a Glock. Or even a SA semiauto like an XD. But not many people advocate condition 0 carry for a 1911.



A DA or SA revolver is fine without a safety. But I wouldn't advocate carrying either with the hammer back on a loaded chamber. IMO, carrying a 1911 unlocked with the hammer back would be about the same thing.

I'm not sure what condition 0 is... Is there a recognized standard for "conditions"?

1911Tuner
May 9, 2012, 08:59 AM
I don't advise Condition 0 for any single action auto, but the 1911 can be carried that way.

The grip safety still blocks the trigger and the half-cock notch is still operational. The manual safety was put there for reholstering while riding a horse...not for constant carry.

In case it got buried in the thread...the first eight prototypes that were submitted to the Army Ordnance Board didn't even have thumb safeties. The US Cavalry requested that a manual, slide locking safety be added. Browning complied, and the rest is history...and in the early 80s, the mantra was born:

"Cocked and locked! The way that JMB intended!"

Unfortunately, that mantra isn't rooted in fact.

shep854
May 9, 2012, 09:03 AM
The consensus (for the Government Model and clones) is:
Cond 0--cocked, mag in, round chambered, with safety OFF ('Cocked and Unlocked'). ie, ready to fire.
Cond 1--Cocked, mag in, round chambered, safety ON ('Cocked and Locked')
Cond 2--Un-cocked, mag in, round chambered.
Cond 3--Un-cocked, mag in, chamber empty. Some call this 'half-loaded'
By elimination, Condition 4 would be un-cocked, mag out, chamber empty (completely unloaded).

gym
May 9, 2012, 11:21 AM
How about condition 2 with half cocked. I leave my bedside gun like that. If I wake up groggy, I feel it's safer to actually pull back the spur hammer. How did the safety get taken off again?
I see "1911 Tuner" answered this in post #75, I would think that also, trigger fingers wander withe some guys, I have seen it many times also, if need be you have to think each time you are about to pull you weapon, "off the trigger" until you need to be on it, if it's not an unconsious act.
If you find that impossible to do, then get a gun with a seperate safety like my backup, lc9, I don't use it but it's there. Also H&K and Sig, along with most manufacturers make such guns.HK 45 sub for instance, has the safety decocker on it, and is a fine weapon.

Rapidrob
May 9, 2012, 12:03 PM
I carried the1911 in war and peace for over twenty years. Several times I have seen an accidental discharge for a variety of reasons.
I equipped my CCW 1911 with the Safety-Fast system. There is no chance of the pistol firing when removing or placing into the holster, or dropping onto the ground, finger in the trigger guard, etc. It only goes bang when you want it too.

X-Rap
May 9, 2012, 01:04 PM
Whenever I hold a 1911 workshop, I use an old Black Army Colt. One of the first things that I do is to pass the warhorse around for everybody to see...and I watch. I do a quick press-check and hand it to the first one. Out of five people sitting at the table, an average of two of the five will double-check the gun. The others trust. Bad habit to get into.

While you make that observation also look for guys like your friend that seem to always find their finger inside the trigger guard. I see a lot of people handle guns in shops and gunshows and am amazed at the number of people that will pick up a handgun with finger in trigger guard and and give it a few bounces as if to feel the heft in the hand. Makes no sense to me but I see it often, usually with older + 60 crowd. Take those same traits and put them on the range or in defense and you have giant problems.

1911Tuner
May 9, 2012, 01:12 PM
X-Rap...I do, and I've seen the same thing. My step father is the world's worst for that and not paying attention to where the muzzle is pointing.

X-Rap
May 9, 2012, 01:28 PM
My dad has that affliction as well and it is painful to admonish him but I do, he was raised in the woods in Northern MN. when they still depended on guns as sustenance an security and was trained as an AP.
I hate to say it but the stats bare it out, gun related accidents are on the decline and I believe it is due to fewer older shooters (can't teach an old dog new tricks excuse) and the rigid doctrine of trigger and muzzle discipline that shooters growing up in the last 40-50yrs have been subject to. The later is good news and I am not trying to paint a whole group in a bad color but there is a statistical/historical correlation that can't be ignored.

JRH6856
May 9, 2012, 01:45 PM
While you make that observation also look for guys like your friend that seem to always find their finger inside the trigger guard. I see a lot of people handle guns in shops and gunshows and am amazed at the number of people that will pick up a handgun with finger in trigger guard and and give it a few bounces as if to feel the heft in the hand. Makes no sense to me but I see it often, usually with older + 60 crowd. Take those same traits and put them on the range or in defense and you have giant problems.

In defense of the +60 crowd, that used to be common practice. When I received my first formal training in shooting a DA revolver in the late 1960's, that is how I was taught to grasp the gun in the holster: finger in the trigger guard, though with finger off the trigger with the back of the finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. But that was just the way I had been shooting revolvers since I was a kid.

Revolver holsters of the day were designed to give access to the trigger guard while the gun was holstered. And remember, revolvers were what were the primary choice, for both police service and civilian SD/HD. When Jeff Cooper began promoting the 1911, the need to keep the finger off the trigger became a rule that was applied to revolvers as well, but old habits are hard to break for some. I started shooting and carrying a 1911 in the late '70s, and it took me a long time to break the habit putting my finger in the trigger guard. Even now I find myself doing it occasionally.

1911Tuner
May 9, 2012, 01:46 PM
I agree...and I'm a member of that older crowd. I have my own father to thank for it.

X-Rap
May 9, 2012, 01:54 PM
In defense of the +60 crowd, that used to be common practice. When I received my first formal training in shooting a DA revolver in the late 1960's, that is how I was taught to grasp the gun in the holster: finger in the trigger guard, though with finger off the trigger with the back of the finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. But that was just the way I had been shooting revolvers since I was a kid.



I agree completely, some of the classic holsters have fully exposed triggers and there is little doubt about the intent of the designers, when I see them today they just don't look right. I would love to get a Three Persons from EL Paso Saddlery but just can't bring myself to do it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 9, 2012, 04:20 PM
I don't advise Condition 0 for any single action auto, but the 1911 can be carried that way.

The XD is a single action and has no external safety on most models. Carrying an XD is like carrying a 1911 without the safety on.

JRH6856
May 9, 2012, 04:57 PM
The XD is a single action and has no external safety on most models. Carrying an XD is like carrying a 1911 without the safety on.

Except the XD has a trigger mounted safety which the 1911 does not have.

Of course, I have never really accepted the logic of a trigger mounted safety. :scrutiny:

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 9, 2012, 06:21 PM
Except the XD has a trigger mounted safety which the 1911 does not have.

Of course, I have never really accepted the logic of a trigger mounted safety.

With the grip safety, what's the point of the trigger safety on an XD? With or without one, it's still the same safe as a safety off 1911.

JRH6856
May 9, 2012, 07:01 PM
what's the point of the trigger safety

I sorta wonder that about every pistol that has one. :confused:

45_auto
May 9, 2012, 07:26 PM
I equipped my CCW 1911 with the Safety-Fast system. There is no chance of the pistol firing when removing or placing into the holster, or dropping onto the ground, finger in the trigger guard, etc. It only goes bang when you want it too.

Just like a regular 1911, take the thumb safety off on your "no chance" Safety-Fast 1911 and try to stick it in the holster with your finger on the trigger. NOTE: It's going to go bang. Make sure your medical insurance is paid up first.

Same thing applies any time your finger is on the trigger and the thumb safety is off. It's going to go bang if the trigger is pulled. Only thing I've seen that the Safety-Fast system does on a 1911 is make it look like it's not cocked in the holster.

GLOOB
May 9, 2012, 07:41 PM
what's the point of the trigger safety
I sorta wonder that about every pistol that has one.
It's usually a drop-safety, first and foremost. Prevents the trigger from going back if the gun is dropped on the back of the slide. A trigger-activated firing pin block is great and all, but if the trigger moves back due to inertia, the firing pin block is defeated. Yeah, on an XD this is sorta redundant, in a way.

JRH6856
May 9, 2012, 07:55 PM
It's usually a drop-safety, first and foremost. Prevents the trigger from going back if the gun is dropped on the back of the slide. A trigger-activated firing pin block is great and all, but if the trigger moves back due to inertia, the firing pin block is defeated.

So you're saying the trigger safety is essentially part of the firing-pin block safety system and serves to keep the trigger moving accidentally and deactivating the firing pin block?

Averageman
May 9, 2012, 09:13 PM
I carried an issue 1911 for over 20 years and now as a civilian I carry Glock 17's or a 26. I dont know if I am enlightened or what, but I have never had a problem with either.
I have actually slept most nights with a 1911 in a shoulder holster during deployments.
I trust them and I trust myself.

GLOOB
May 9, 2012, 09:24 PM
So you're saying the trigger safety is essentially part of the firing-pin block safety system and serves to keep the trigger moving accidentally and deactivating the firing pin block?
Something like that. If you examine a glock firing mechanism u see that every moving part goes backward to fire. If u drop the gun on the back od the slide all systems would be jarred towars firing. The trigger is springloaded to move to the rear, even. When striker moves back by inertia, the trigger spring and inertia both guarantee the trigger and sear follow, thus disabling the fp block and potentially releasing the now cocked striker. Disconnect does not trip cuz the slide isnt cycled. So theres really nothing else positively preventing the gun from firing. The sear might stop when it hits the angled connector piece. (The point where the glock trigger breaks; it's where the angled connector part diverts the sear downward). Probably not considerint thered be no striker spring force pushing against the sear. So the sear would release and the trigger spring would hold it in the release position until the gun next cycles.

If you disabled the trigger doohickey and tied a string to the striker, you could fire a Glock by drawing the striker back and letting go. The trigger would not only pull itself, but once the sear cleared the striker, the trigger spring would also keep the sear locked back in the fire position until the next time the slide cycles. Replace the string with inertia, and that's why the trigger doohickey is a drop safety. That's just how a Glock works. I'm not sure how the XD works, for sure. I would guess it is similar.

SleazyRider
May 9, 2012, 09:51 PM
And triggers have been activated by safety straps, waist drawstrings on coats, and I'm sure a lot of other things.

How's this for an accident waiting to happen? To remove this .32 Spanish Ruby from its holster, one must put their finger into the trigger guard against the front of the trigger and depress a metal tab! :eek:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq315/Magnageek/RubyPistolet010.jpg

JRH6856
May 9, 2012, 10:03 PM
Thanks, GLOOB. I'm going to borrow a Glock and study on that for a bit.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 9, 2012, 10:53 PM
I'm not sure how the XD works, for sure. I would guess it is similar.

A XD is SAO and it works like any other. The striker rests on the sear and pulling the trigger pulls releases the sear. Sear can't move without the grip safety depressed because it blocks the sear. Trigger can't be pulled without the grip safety being depressed because it's connected to the sear. Pulling the striker back on a string would do nothing.

Panzercat
May 9, 2012, 11:06 PM
Unless your 1911 is terribly broken four things had to happen before you received that terrible pain in your leg.

Side safety released.
Beaver tail safety deactivated.
The hammer was cocked.
Trigger pulled.

IMO the 1911 is one of the safest pistols out there.

Agreed, even while acknowledging my own 1911 ND a while back. Didn't ensure a clear chamber, but the hole in the wall is hardly the pistols fault since I had to defeat every safety it has to do it. :)

I can sympathize, however.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii110/ozzallos/IRL%20Pics/pen.jpg

PT92
May 9, 2012, 11:38 PM
at first there is no pain kinda weird but I didn't realize I had been shot until I dropped my pants to check.
Sorry to hear of this most unfortunate event and here's hoping that you can make the best out of a bad situation.

But the aforementioned reminds me of my Dad who once told me that he cut his thigh quite severely in an old lumber mill and did not realize it until he thought he had p...d himself only to find out it was warm blood instead of urine running down his leg--Human body is simply amazing and resilient at that...

gym
May 10, 2012, 12:30 AM
I'm 64 and carry 24/7 and never put my finger on the trigger except when I want to shoot something. My Uncles were all ex servicemen and mostlly Marines, one was a competition shooter and a gunsmith, They were much more vigilant about safety than the youg kids I see today.I am afraid to shoot at a public range. Most were never in the military and have no clue other than what some other guy told them. I think that sort of thinking is skewed. Most older men who shoot have a military background and are more knowledgebale about guns in general. My uncles were building 45's 50 years ago. I was shooting against the FBI and NYPD in the 70's. Upstate on their range. I don't believe that younger shooters other than ex military, snipers and special ops are any safer than anyone else.Just as many cops I hung with were not into guns at all.Most still don't get enough practice, and will never use their weapon.In my house if you failed to checck a gun handed to you, you got slapped off your chair. It didn't matter who checked it before you or in front of you. My uncle was a DI, and he would take some of my friends, also young servicemen shooting, in Glen head LI, to a private range, and even after explaining this they still would fail to check the weapon. It was embarassing but they took it, because it taught them once and for all.

benbernanke
May 10, 2012, 12:35 AM
I think you should sell the firearm because its a bad luck piece now. No use in tempting fate. Sell it and get something else.

JShirley
May 10, 2012, 01:42 AM
Wow. A "bad luck piece"?!

Okay, well, good job making firearm owners seem like rational, intelligent people. I think this thread has now officially used up its stupidity quotient.

John

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