[jwr_747]

I've sort of looked,but still confused.I was under the impression that you couldn't register any "new" machine guns.Such as,if you found your grand dads WW1 Thompson MG.But 2 shows on TV,the Red Jacket one and Gun Smoke show are pumping out MG's left and right and doing the "paper work" to make them legal..

[mboylan]

Red Jacket is a SOT 2 manufacturer. I can assure you that they are only building machine guns for law enforcement, the military and most commonly other SOT 2 manufacturers looking for a prototype.

[Sam1911]

They are Special Occupational Tax Class 02 Manufacturers. They can make machine guns.

However, those guns can only be sold to the military or law enforcemnt agencies (or other SOT2s or SOT3 dealers).

Guns registered after May 1986 cannot be transferred/registered/possessed/owned by private individuals.

No accounting for "Hollywierd" but one possibility is always that a registered "transferrable" (pre - 1986) machine gun could be bought by them and refreshed, rebuilt, updated, and/or somewhat reconfigured to their customers' tastes. There are limits to what can be done legally, and transferrables are VERY expensive to begin with, but it's possible.

[Jim Watson]

RJ apparently (at the TV level of accuracy) does all of the above. They have pimped out transferrable guns, built guns for other licensed manufacturers, and frequently schmooze some armed government agency into requesting a test piece.

"most commonly other SOT 2 manufacturers looking for a prototype."

Several years ago, I saw a daisy chain of small operations whose main "business" was passing "prototypes" around to each other to play with. I guess they turned out something legitimate every once in a while to keep their licenses up. I don't know if they are still in operation under present regulations, but they sure had fun at the time.

[Prince Yamato]

For movies, a number of the studios have a large number of pre-86 autos. In some states police departments have "film units" to help with closing off streets, making sure police procedures are depicted accurately, etc. it wouldn't shock me if they would sign a demo letter to have a new mg shown to them via film.

[Capybara]

I've visited two armories for the TV/Film business in LA. They had EVERYTHING and then some. RPGs, Grenade Launchers, Mini Guns and every FA weapon you can think of. It makes my legs weak to think about all of the cool toys that they had.

Yup, being a film armorer could be a pretty cool job if you really, really like guns but then again, having a bunch of careless and stupid actors lives as your responsibility would be tough. I've heard unsafe gun handling stories from actors that would curl your hair.

[GoingQuiet]

I've sort of looked,but still confused.I was under the impression that you couldn't register any "new" machine guns.Such as,if you found your grand dads WW1 Thompson MG.But 2 shows on TV,the Red Jacket one and Gun Smoke show are pumping out MG's left and right and doing the "paper work" to make them legal..

They're all manufactured as post samples - only sold to LE agencies or other SOT's.

[Bubbles]

Yup, being a film armorer could be a pretty cool job if you really, really like guns but then again, having a bunch of careless and stupid actors lives as your responsibility would be tough. I've heard unsafe gun handling stories from actors that would curl your hair.
We'll be providing some firearms for movies over the next few years. All of the guns must be converted to fire blanks only, there will be no "live fire" on any of the sets.

[TurtlePhish]

We'll be providing some firearms for movies over the next few years. All of the guns must be converted to fire blanks only, there will be no "live fire" on any of the sets.


How are they being converted? Just a blank adapter, or is there serious work that has to be done?

[zignal_zero]

They are Special Occupational Tax Class 02 Manufacturers. They can make machine guns.

However, those guns can only be sold to the military or law enforcemnt agencies (or other SOT2s or SOT3 dealers).

Guns registered after May 1986 cannot be transferred/registered/possessed/owned by private individuals.

No accounting for "Hollywierd" but one possibility is always that a registered "transferrable" (pre - 1986) machine gun could be bought by them and refreshed, rebuilt, updated, and/or somewhat reconfigured to their customers' tastes. There are limits to what can be done legally, and transferrables are VERY expensive to begin with, but it's possible.

this is why i kind of consider Richard Lage to be "the saviour of American machinegunners" before him, we were limited to using technology from pre 86. his uppers allow us to use a gun that (technically) is pre 86 but using post 2000 technology. they don't let me do the Thanksgiving prayer in my family - Thank you God for Mr. Kalashnikov, thank you God for Mr. Stoner, thank you God for Mr. Ingram, thank you God for Mr. Lage :D

[Sam1911]

And that's absolutely true up to a point. Unfortunately there are limitations on how far the basic design can be pushed, and you are stuck with some parts and some basic configurations that you just can't bring into the 21st century. :(

And the rules do get reinterpreted from time to time.

I used to live around the corner from a company called BRP guns. Their specialty was building adapters that let a registered M-16 lower attach to and RUN the top end of a belt-fed machine gun like a MG-42! The GPMG feed system, receiver, and barrel, etc. was just the "upper."

Now the ATF has reinterpreted such a total reconfiguration as not lawful, so they stopped selling those.

They CAN however, sell really cool "dress-up" kits for Stemple STGs so if you have a transferable Stemple sub-gun, you can build it into a lookalike for other cool and historic submachine guns: http://www.brpguns.com/

[zignal_zero]

oh yea, i'm familiar with BRP. i'm not sure if anyonelse does, but i tend to refer to them as "Burp Guns" and yea, what they can do with an old Stemple is AMAZING. the prayer might have to be lengthened :D

[Sam1911]

Years back (maybe 2004?) the owner of BRP came out to our range one afternoon to test-fire one of their M16/MG42 conversions while I and a pal were there. Got to spend a long time talking to him, and watching him burn ammo, but didn't get to shoot it (a customer's gun, after all).

Sold a lot to reenactors, he said. From a distance, or vehicle mounted, it wasn't easy to tell it wasn't an original complete '42.

Complete shame they can't do that anymore. Just as dumb as the Hughes Amendment and the NFA to begin with. :fire:

[Capybara]

Yes, but unfortunately sometimes actors are more dangerous with blanks, "because they are just blanks, they can't hurt you."

All I can tell you is to be very careful with any actors and guns, whether blanks or live fire. Actors are insecure narcissists who are typically pretty emotionally immature. You should be adopting an R. Lee Ermey personae so that the actors are actually afraid of what you will do to them if they ignore your orders to handle the weapons safely. Imagine everyone muzzle sweeping each other from 8" away while laughing or shooting each other in the rear "just because they are blanks".

[Bubbles]

How are they being converted? Just a blank adapter, or is there serious work that has to be done?
Varies based on the gun. Some only need the adapter, others need a little tweaking to cycle properly.

[JTW Jr.]

registered M-16 lower attach to and RUN the top end of a belt-fed machine gun like a MG-42

That BATF dis-allows that makes no sense, you are taking what is already a MG ( M16 ) and adding a different "upper" to it , so you are not creating a new MG , just changing uppers basically. One of the dumbest rulings I have heard.

But then what can we expect.

[Quiet]

Now the ATF has reinterpreted such a total reconfiguration as not lawful, so they stopped selling those.

Wonder why the BATFE doesn't tell that to Lage Mfg?

BATFE NFA branch has told Lage that the different uppers they make does not change the status of a M-11/9 MG that is being used as the host weapon. Lage Mfg has BATFE letters confirming this.

They even got a BATFE NFA branch "no status change/not a new MG" letter for their MAX-41A (SWD M-11/9 MG + Remington M870 SBS made to look like the M41A "pulse rifle" from the move "Aliens").

[Sam1911]

Wonder why the BATFE doesn't tell that to Lage Mfg?


Lage hasen't started making belt-fed MG-38/42 uppers for MAC-11s ... yet! :)

The 41A is certainly closer to a radical change, but really still a sub gun with a shotgun attached.

The BRP designs converted a light assault rifle into a belt-fed, crew-served GPMG. Guess the line falls somewhere in between.

[bamawrx]

I think the issue was with the open bolt design. The upper was already a machine gun basically. You could mount it to a semi lower and make it shoot more than once with minor modification. Unsafe modifications mind you, but safety is not the rule. Can't fire more than once OR be readily made to fire more than once. Not sure why everyone forgets the second part of the definition.

I'm sure with some more work they could get a closed bolt design, but that much more difficult. TNG was making closed bolt MG42's for a while. Not sure if they still are, or if their innovations would translate. I think they had to make an entirely new receiver, which would be expensive as heck.

[Sam1911]

I have a friend who's constructed a closed-bolt semi-auto MG-42. It is complicated.

You could be right about that reasoning, but that isn't the basis for the decision that I've heard/read. Without finding the actual letters between the BATFE and BRP it is probably all speculation.

Remember, these were built for installation on registered M-16 transferrable "machine guns" already. If the BATFE just wanted to limit semi-autos that could be slam-fired as full-autos with that kit, they could have said that it is illegal to install one on a semi-auto AR-15 and left it at that.

[Jim K]

With enough money and influence....

I wonder how big a "campaign contribution" (aka bribe) it would take to be appointed a "special agent" or some such title, and authorized to buy/own machineguns.

Jim

[Sam1911]

I wonder how big a "campaign contribution" (aka bribe) it would take to be appointed a "special agent" or some such title, and authorized to buy/own machineguns.

Hmmm...well, you'd still be buying/possessing on behalf of your department/agency. Subguns and assault rifles issued to law-enforcement officers don't belong to them and they have no authority to purchase or possess any not issued by and used as directed by their agency.

I guess if you could be established as an agency of one, commanding yourself? Probably absurdly hypothetical, though.

[JTW Jr.]

Remember, these were built for installation on registered M-16 transferrable "machine guns" already. If the BATFE just wanted to limit semi-autos that could be slam-fired as full-autos with that kit, they could have said that it is illegal to install one on a semi-auto AR-15 and left it at that.

The BATF didnt want anyone taking a machine gun , adding a different upper and turning into a machinegun. ;)

Yeah I never understood their reasoning on that one. Not like any of their other rulings made much sense either....

but then it is the BATF.

[GRAPE-DRANK]

You can thank the nra for telling ronnie to sign the bill that the hughes amendment was tacked on to!!!!

What makes my blood boil is the hughes amendment didn't pass a floor vote! Charlie rangel shucked and jived that one through!!!!

Makes my blood boil!!!

[Sam1911]

You can thank the nra for telling ronnie to sign the bill that the hughes amendment was tacked on to!!!!
...and you can thank them for all the GOOD things about FOPA that aid us all every day, as well. Let's not lose sight of WHY the NRA and RR did what they did. The battle they were fighting was not quite the same in 1986 as the one we fight today.

That was a calculated risk that didn't pan out as well as hoped, as momentum has not yet built to repeal the Hughes Amendment.