45 Colt loads for Uberti El Patron


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Sneaky Potato
May 7, 2012, 01:53 PM
I am new to reloading, and decided on a Lee Classic Loader to make my first rounds on. I also bought a scale and other necessities.

After making some cowboy loads for plinking, I am attempting to make some more powerful loads for my Uberti El Patron. I'm aware that it's not a ruger and can't handle anything insane.

Basically, I could use some help understanding where my "cutoff" point would be in my loading.

I use trail boss and hp38.

Hp38 is listed 5.8 grains to start with and NEVER EXCEED 7.3. Does that mean a 7.3 load is extremely hot and only something a ruger could handle?

5.8 feels like I'm shooting a .22 pistol. Would my el patron be okay with a 6.8 or so? Thanks for the help!

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joecil
May 7, 2012, 02:01 PM
Pretty much make standard SAMMI loads and to exceed that. I have a Uberti, Cimarron (like the el Patron a tuned Uberti cattleman) and a much older ASM. All three handled standard 45 Colt ammo and the one with the 45 ACP handles standard loads also. I do avoid any power levels of the Ruger loads or +P.

USSR
May 7, 2012, 02:26 PM
Basically, I could use some help understanding where my "cutoff" point would be in my loading.

I would try to find out if they make this revolver (or one just like it) in .45ACP, and if they do, is it rated for .45ACP +P ammo. That will tell you quite a bit as to the power level you have to deal with.

Don

joecil
May 7, 2012, 03:15 PM
I would try to find out if they make this revolver (or one just like it) in .45ACP, and if they do, is it rated for .45ACP +P ammo. That will tell you quite a bit as to the power level you have to deal with.

Don

Don the Cimarron and el Patron are both Uberti Cattleman just with some fine tuning and perhaps a slightly better finish. Now mine is a the Cimarron and I have both the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cylinders. It isn't rated for +P loads or if so they don't say. I wouldn't shot it in mine but feel completely safe with standard loads in either caliber.

Hondo 60
May 7, 2012, 03:21 PM
Ubertis are not meant to shoot higher pressure rounds (other than the Callahan).
If you give it a steady diet of high pressure rounds you will damage the gun.

My personal load is a 200 grain Missouri bullet (Cowboy #4) over 11 gr of AA5.
Gives a decent report, about 850 fps, without punishing me or my Cattleman NM Brass.

http://www.jbabcock.net/guns/uberti.jpg

rcmodel
May 7, 2012, 04:57 PM
Does that mean a 7.3 load is extremely hot and only something a ruger could handle?It looks like you plucked that load out of Hodgdon 230 grain LRNFP data.

Next to the load, it says it develops 13,700 CUP.

Standard pressure .45 Colt is SAAMI rated at 14,000 PSI.

So, those are standard pressure loads, not "Ruger Only" or other hot loads.
They should be perfectly fine in your gun.

rc

Sneaky Potato
May 7, 2012, 04:57 PM
Thanks for the info guys. I'm aware that I can't load any +P rounds into my El Patron. Wouldn't dream of it. But I also have no idea how to load a +P round. I'm mainly just concerned about loading my rounds too hot, and I'm still uncertain of what my revolver can handle.

rcmodel
May 7, 2012, 04:59 PM
Your gun is rated for Standard pressure .45 Colt, at a max pressure of 14,000 PSI.

rc

Hammerdown77
May 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
250-255 grain lead bullet over 7.1 grains of HP38 is a standard pressure Colt round and approximates factory ammo running 850-ish fps.

It is an excellent load out of my Cimarron Model P, one of a couple that shoot to point of aim in this gun.

You should shoot it with real black powder! Lots of boom and smoke and recoil, no worries about pressure ;)

Sneaky Potato
May 7, 2012, 10:05 PM
It looks like you plucked that load out of Hodgdon 230 grain LRNFP data.

Next to the load, it says it develops 13,700 CUP.

Standard pressure .45 Colt is SAAMI rated at 14,000 PSI.

So, those are standard pressure loads, not "Ruger Only" or other hot loads.
They should be perfectly fine in your gun.

rc
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the info...it now makes perfect sense!

joecil
May 7, 2012, 10:15 PM
For those interested keep in mind that Uberti's are built in Italy and as such their rules are different than here as well as their and the US export/import rules. I might add European ammo is a touch stronger than SAMMI standard so I found this segment of how they are made interesting. Especially when one considers the ammo standard are a bit stronger loads than ours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOJa8ZNxmE&feature=related

Sneaky Potato
May 7, 2012, 11:04 PM
250-255 grain lead bullet over 7.1 grains of HP38 is a standard pressure Colt round and approximates factory ammo running 850-ish fps.

It is an excellent load out of my Cimarron Model P, one of a couple that shoot to point of aim in this gun.

You should shoot it with real black powder! Lots of boom and smoke and recoil, no worries about pressure ;)
I'll try that load exactly and let you know how it goes. I've never shot black powder cartridges! Are they impressive? :D

Hammerdown77
May 8, 2012, 08:38 AM
I'll try that load exactly and let you know how it goes. I've never shot black powder cartridges! Are they impressive? :D
I'm a recent convert to black powder in the 45 Colt. It's a lot of fun. I use real black powder, and fill the case so that the powder is compressed 1/16" to 1/8" when a 255 grain bullet is seated and crimped. That ends up being about 35 grains of FFg Goex.

The report is very different than smokeless. Big deep FAWOOOM, rather than a crack or pop. And the recoil is different. There's just as much, but it's not quite as sharp.

Gets everyone's attention at the firing line ;)

Jim Watson
May 8, 2012, 09:47 AM
You are using the mallet powered Lee Loader and its powder dipper, right?
Those dippers (also their disk measures) are very conservatively rated. Unless you really pile the powder up, contrary to instructions, you are probably running lighter on the load than the chart says anyhow. The only way to know what you are really getting is to actually weigh the charge.

Sneaky Potato
May 8, 2012, 09:59 PM
You are using the mallet powered Lee Loader and its powder dipper, right?
Those dippers (also their disk measures) are very conservatively rated. Unless you really pile the powder up, contrary to instructions, you are probably running lighter on the load than the chart says anyhow. The only way to know what you are really getting is to actually weigh the charge.
Right you are. I don't care what anybody says, Lee Dippers are amazing. They throw a little light to keep you from screwing it up, but they're perfect for making plinking rounds that don't require exactness. Plus it's fun.

ArchAngelCD
May 8, 2012, 11:14 PM
I fail to understand why so many reloaders and shooters are always looking to turn the .45 Colt into something it isn't. The .45 Colt like the 45-70 rifle round was developed to be big and slow. Any normal .45 Colt round will go clean through a man and probably a horse just like most 45-70 rounds will go clean through a Bison. There is no reason or need to change what has worked for over 100 years...

Clark
May 8, 2012, 11:42 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have a beat up old Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt was made in the 70's.
I have had it for 8 years and have only shot one load over and over and over again for 8 years.


24 gr. H110, 250 gr. XTP, crimp into canalure, 1.6" OAL

It chronographs at 1225 fps with the 4.75" Cattleman [6.5" with cylinder for Quickload calculations].
It chronographs at 1535 fps with the 16.25" Win 94

Quickload figures that is about 21.4 kpsi.

In terms of splitting chambers, when I measure revolver chamber wall thickness and I extrapolate of published loads for Smiths and Rugers, the Cattleman should be good for much higher than I am doing.

Besides splitting cylinders, there is the problem with revolvers of shooting loose. My cattleman locks up tighter than a new Ruger and tighter than a used Smith. The Cattlemen could not lock up tighter.

Here are the measurements, calculations, and references:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651153

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=161617&d=1332654631

Sneaky Potato
May 9, 2012, 12:52 AM
I fail to understand why so many reloaders and shooters are always looking to turn the .45 Colt into something it isn't. The .45 Colt like the 45-70 rifle round was developed to be big and slow. Any normal .45 Colt round will go clean through a man and probably a horse just like most 45-70 rounds will go clean through a Bison. There is no reason or need to change what has worked for over 100 years...
Your failure to understand any concept really isn't the point of this thread. People used to fail to understand how the earth could be round. I am merely trying to understand more about reloading, and not blow my hand off.

If, perhaps, I was intending to fill my 45 Colt cartridges with rocket fuel and attach explosive bullets to shoot down planes, I might be "changing what's worked for 100 years".

Since I'm not, and merely attempting to understand what loads my italian revolver can handle; please attempt to find a thread that can address your shortcomings in understanding. Or, participate in the thread topic like a good gentleman.

It should also be noted that I do not plan on putting any bullets "clean through" any men. Or horses, for that matter.

Sneaky Potato
May 9, 2012, 12:53 AM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have a beat up old Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt was made in the 70's.
I have had it for 8 years and have only shot one load over and over and over again for 8 years.


24 gr. H110, 250 gr. XTP, crimp into canalure, 1.6" OAL

It chronographs at 1225 fps with the 4.75" Cattleman [6.5" with cylinder for Quickload calculations].
It chronographs at 1535 fps with the 16.25" Win 94

Quickload figures that is about 21.4 kpsi.

In terms of splitting chambers, when I measure revolver chamber wall thickness and I extrapolate of published loads for Smiths and Rugers, the Cattleman should be good for much higher than I am doing.

Besides splitting cylinders, there is the problem with revolvers of shooting loose. My cattleman locks up tighter than a new Ruger and tighter than a used Smith. The Cattlemen could not lock up tighter.

Here are the measurements, calculations, and references:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651153

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=161617&d=1332654631
What model is the second revolver from the top? Did you antique that? It looks like a genuine colt. Beautiful guns, btw. That one is especially eye catching.

ArchAngelCD
May 9, 2012, 12:59 AM
Your failure to understand any concept really isn't the point of this thread. People used to fail to understand how the earth could be round. I am merely trying to understand more about reloading, and not blow my hand off.

If, perhaps, I was intending to fill my 45 Colt cartridges with rocket fuel and attach explosive bullets to shoot down planes, I might be "changing what's worked for 100 years".

Since I'm not, and merely attempting to understand what loads my italian revolver can handle; please attempt to find a thread that can address your shortcomings in understanding. Or, participate in the thread topic like a good gentleman.

It should also be noted that I do not plan on putting any bullets "clean through" any men. Or horses, for that matter.
So I said something wrong by suggesting you stick with standard published loads? You asked about what was safe in your revolver and I thought I answered that by saying you should stick with what worked for over 100 years. You seem a little touchy. Sorry I bothered you, I won't make the mistake of posting in your threads again. My mistake...

Clark
May 9, 2012, 02:50 AM
Sneaky Potato


What model is the second revolver from the top? Did you antique that? It looks like a genuine colt. Beautiful guns, btw. That one is especially eye catching.

Uberti single action 45LC Cattleman imported by Iver Johnson Fitchberg Mass, I paid $255 gunshow 2004

If I have 100 handguns, that is my favorite to shoot.
I welded in the front sight, to make it higher.

Sneaky Potato
May 9, 2012, 06:05 AM
So I said something wrong by suggesting you stick with standard published loads? You asked about what was safe in your revolver and I thought I answered that by saying you should stick with what worked for over 100 years. You seem a little touchy. Sorry I bothered you, I won't make the mistake of posting in your threads again. My mistake...
Don't be offended. I'm playing with you. :D You are 100% correct in that people need to stick with published loads. I was just a little worried that perhaps my cattleman could only handle very mild loads, and I didn't want to blow it up. I freely admit I'm new to this. But I appreciate your input and taking the time to help a fellow out.

I will admit that I wouldn't mind going on a horse shooting spree ;)

Hammerdown77
May 9, 2012, 10:14 AM
That H110 load listed a few posts up is interesting with respect to its use in a Uberti/Cimarron SAA clone. I would not dream of putting an H110 load in my Cimarron, but the fact that the Quickload numbers indicate 21.4k psi seems to suggest it is "do-able". In the factory literature that came with my gun, it says they are tested at the factory to 1.5 times SAAMI Colt pressure. So that's about 21k PSI. As was also mentioned, some of these guns had a 45 ACP cylinder which should be rated for 45 ACP +P loads. Which is low 20s K psi.

I've shot 24 grain H110 loads with a 255 gr. lead bullet in my Blackhawks, and it is fairly stout (it's couple grains below max load, though). It sure feels like more than 21k psi. I would not shoot it in my Cimarron. I'm sure the metallurgy in the Italian replicas is adequate for their intended use, but I would not trust it outside its recommended operating limits like I would a Ruger. I've had soft parts in the Italian guns, parts that didn't receive sufficient heat treating. While one man's Italian clone might be able to handle a steady diet of those hotter loads, someone else's might not. More risk than I'm willing to take, considering you can find good prices on used Ruger Blackhawks all day long.

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