AR-15 Failure to feed issues


PDA






ratt_finkel
May 7, 2012, 07:47 PM
Did a quick search and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.

Went to the range on Saturday. Shot about 50 rounds through my AR. Near the end of that round count. GF said it was getting a F2Feed.

Looked at it. Noticed the BCG wasn't going all the way forward. Yanked on the handle to eject the round. Next one loaded just fine. And then it would jam after that. And it kept doing that. So sat down and tried it myself. Finally had a round that would not load period. Yanked it out and noticed that the slug was lodged all the way down into the casing. (so glad that it didn't fire)

Anyway, after looking at it with the range master. I noticed that the mag catch? had broken off. Not sure if that was effecting anything or not. Because the previous 4 mags (10rd limit) worked flawlessly.

Also noticed that the round would not slide into the chamber. But kept getting caught up. In addition to the BCG only wanting to slide about 1/2 through it's motion.

I admit it's been sometime since I cleaned it. Maybe 500 rounds.

Is it just dirty or is there something else going on?

If you enjoyed reading about "AR-15 Failure to feed issues" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
taliv
May 7, 2012, 07:53 PM
hard to say without seeing it. could be multiple problems.
not following what part of the mag catch is broken. got a pic?

aside from the mag catch, i'd start with

make sure it's properly lubed
put the ammo in a case gauge and/or try different ammo
try a different magazine
check the action spring. (shouldn't be a prob unless you have 5000+ rounds on the gun, but you never know)

TonyAngel
May 7, 2012, 07:59 PM
Check those things mentioned by taliv. In my book, 500 rounds doesn't even come close to qualifying as "sometime."

Captains1911
May 7, 2012, 08:00 PM
Make sure its lubed and it doesn't need to be clean. Does it happen with multiple mags? Did you try different ammo?

ratt_finkel
May 7, 2012, 08:09 PM
The range guy said the BCG looked a little dry. I just have a hard time believing it's just because of that. I'm not sure why I didn't try a different mag. I was kinda of in a hurry I guess since I had another rifle to shoot and pistols also.

Anyway, the rifle has less than 1k rounds down the tube. It's an A3? style Bushmaster Carbine from the early 2000's. Never had a single malfunction. Always use high quality ammo. Never any reloads.

When releasing the charging handle you could feel the BCG just cease to a halt. Almost like it was getting hung up on the mag (newer tapco). I'll try to take some pics shortly.

Captains1911
May 7, 2012, 08:11 PM
The range guy said the BCG looked a little dry. I just have a hard time believing it's just because of that. I'm not sure why I didn't try a different mag. I was kinda of in a hurry I guess since I had another rifle to shoot and pistols also.

Anyway, the rifle has less than 1k rounds down the tube. It's an A3? style Bushmaster Carbine from the early 2000's. Never had a single malfunction. Always use high quality ammo. Never any reloads.

When releasing the charging handle you could feel the BCG just cease to a halt. Almost like it was getting hung up on the mag (newer tapco). I'll try to take some pics shortly.
believe it or not, dirty un-lubed bolts and bolt carriers will cause the rifle to malfunction. They like to be run wet.

Rail Driver
May 7, 2012, 08:11 PM
I've never had good experiences with Tapco mags - try PMags or even GI steel or aluminum mags.

Gtimothy
May 7, 2012, 09:20 PM
believe it or not, dirty un-lubed bolts and bolt carriers will cause the rifle to malfunction. They like to be run wet.
I had a FTF with my AR and it was because I wasn't using enough lubrication. :uhoh:
The gun only had about 50 rounds through it and it was jammed to the point that the round had to be "pursuaded" out! I learned that ARs don't like to run lightly lubed! They run best when they are almost dripping!

justice06rr
May 7, 2012, 09:32 PM
Yep, lube it generously. If its still causing jams or FTFeed, then there's something else causing the failure.

animator
May 7, 2012, 09:45 PM
I guess I'm the exception then. I don't run mine dripping wet. Just a quick spray of remoil on the moving parts and I let it go. I know for a fact the gun has seen over 500 rounds between cleanings/lube, and sometimes that's all in the span of a couple weeks. I can't recall a single issue in any of my ARs that have been run this way, shooting everything from the cheapest steel-cased surplus to my own handloads.


Something's causing it to malfunction, and lube would be last on my list of things to check.


I'd start with the mags. Then check the feed ramps. Then check the bcg. Then check the lower receiver internals. The problem's bound to turn up in one of those areas.

taliv
May 7, 2012, 09:53 PM
a quick spray of a good oil (i don't include remoil in that) should get an AR 500 rounds no prob. especially if slow fire, not mag dumps.

however, all sorts of other things can happen and lube cures a lot of them, so the recommendation continues to be, lube them up

TonyAngel
May 7, 2012, 10:00 PM
You do NOT lube an AR to a point where it is dripping wet, nor do you lube liberally. If your AR needs to be dripping wet to run properly, you are treating a symptom and not the problem.

To the OP. Does the bolt operate properly when the magazine is removed? With knowing nothing other than the fact that you were using a Tapco mag, my knee jerk reaction would be that it's the mag.

As for the mag catch, I would imagine that if it had broken off, the mag wouldn't have stayed seated. If a part of the bolt release had broken off, that may have caused a problem, but it's hard to tell without seeing it, at least.

Waywatcher
May 7, 2012, 11:16 PM
Read this for AR-15 lubrication guidance. (http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf)

Run it wet. Oil on the bolt and carrier should be thick enough to be spread around with a finger. Drop or two into the carrier key. ARs will run wet and dirty just fine.

Rail Driver
May 7, 2012, 11:25 PM
I vividly remember nearly every single one of the hundreds upon hundreds of pushups with our rifles resting on our knuckles that my BCT unit had to do whenever one of us recruits (we weren't soldiers yet) over-lubed his or her rifle.

Those M-16's would see hundreds of rounds per DAY - and if we used more than a few drops of oil in/on the BCG, we'd be pushing the ground for 5 minutes every quarter mile of the formation run back to the barracks from the firing ranges.

wingman
May 7, 2012, 11:59 PM
believe it or not, dirty un-lubed bolts and bolt carriers will cause the rifle to malfunction. They like to be run wet.
__________________


Bingo, I will never understand how the myth begin that you don't need to clean and lube automatic firearms,any machine and an auto gun is a machine
need to be cleaned and lubed,dirt wears & breaks parts.

A clean gun is a happy gun.:D

TonyAngel
May 8, 2012, 12:08 AM
I think that the term "wet" is subject to some interpretation. Running a rifle dry means running it with no lube. I'll agree that this is bad. I believe the term "wet" to mean that a rifle should be properly lubricated, not dripping with lube.

What I sometimes wonder about is how clean does an AR have to be to keep running. As of this last weekend, my AR now has over 6K rounds through it since it's last cleaning, although I do lube it every 500 rounds or so, with Slip 2000. I am going to have to clean it soon, though. It's about time for a maintenance inspection.

Beak50
May 8, 2012, 02:28 AM
The only time My H-Bar ever miss fired was due to cheap 30rd. mags.

SlamFire1
May 8, 2012, 06:33 AM
Bingo, I will never understand how the myth begin that you don't need to clean and lube automatic firearms,any machine and an auto gun is a machine need to be cleaned and lubed,dirt wears & breaks parts.The military is always fighting the last war. Every Vietnam Veteran I met was taught to run their weapons dry. This must have come out of the Korea Conflict. From books I read , in the extreme cold conditions of Korea, anything with lube was freezing up. It could not have come out of WW2 as Soldiers were taught to grease their Garands in hot/wet, though there were cautions about running totally dry in arctic conditions. Post Vietnam, the dogma became that weapons must be run totally dry.

When you look at the mechanism, direct impingement blows so much residue back into the action you want lubricant washing/absorbing as much of that off as possible.

In so far as the OP's problem, he needs to try with a different magazine. AR15 magazines are the greatest source of unreliability in that weapon. Once you start getting a pattern of mis feeds from a magazine, it is time to junk that and find another.

madcratebuilder
May 8, 2012, 09:04 AM
I noticed that the mag catch? had broken off.

You need to correct this to start. The most common AR stoppages are caused by MEAL. Mags, Extractor, Ammo, Lube.

Get some quality Mags, usgi or Pmags. Give the tapco's away.

I run my gas rings wet, a little Tetra grease on the bolt rails and the rest is pretty much dry. Five drops of oil should lube the rifle.

Caliper_RWVA
May 8, 2012, 09:38 AM
Another vote for fixing the mag catch first (and it's very easy). If the mag is too far in the mag well or not far enough in, either way could cause a FTFeed. If you have a broken part, it is just good practice to fix that before you start treating symptoms.

You mention that the round would not slide into the chamber; why not? If you point the muzzle down, a cartridge should simply drop into an empty chamber. If not, you need to check that chamber for carbon or an obstruction. Once a round drops in freely, you should be able to push the bolt release and have the bolt close completely on the round.

Captains1911
May 8, 2012, 09:49 AM
I think that the term "wet" is subject to some interpretation. Running a rifle dry means running it with no lube. I'll agree that this is bad. I believe the term "wet" to mean that a rifle should be properly lubricated, not dripping with lube.

What I sometimes wonder about is how clean does an AR have to be to keep running. As of this last weekend, my AR now has over 6K rounds through it since it's last cleaning, although I do lube it every 500 rounds or so, with Slip 2000. I am going to have to clean it soon, though. It's about time for a maintenance inspection.
They don't have to be clean at all to function, just well lubricated, and dripping wet is better than dry. Google "Fithy 14", it's a mid-length BCM rifle used by Pat Roger's company that last i heard was over 40,000 rounds, and has NEVER been cleaned, just lubricated.

madcratebuilder
May 8, 2012, 10:03 AM
They don't have to be clean at all to function, just well lubricated, and dripping wet is better than dry. Google "Fithy 14", it's a mid-length BCM rifle used by Pat Roger's company that last i heard was over 40,000 rounds, and has NEVER been cleaned, just lubricated.
If you look at Pat's 40K rifle you well see he lubes the inside of the BCG and the rest is relatively dry. You want the piston/gas ring area wet, that's all. The oil spray from this when fired well lube the rest.

Watch some of his video, funny guy.

Taurus 617 CCW
May 8, 2012, 10:05 AM
Here is an AR-15 troubleshooting guide that I put together for the armorers course I teach. It is a fairly comprehensive list of possible problems and solutions. Sorry for the long post.

Zero bolt movement when round discharges:

Missing gas tube roll pin
Upside down gas tube
Missing or broken buffer tube retainer
Obstruction in buffer tube

Bolt short cycles when shot:

Leaking gas key
Bad gas rings
Leaking gas block
Recoil spring is too strong
Wrong type of buffer installed
Too many rounds in the magazine
Action is not oiled enough
Gas tube roll pin is missing
Gas block is not properly oriented
Carbon buildup causing sluggish movement
Bad ammunition

Rifle does not feed right when shot:

Too many rounds in the magazine
Magazine is not properly seated in lower
Weak magazine spring
Rifle may not have M-4 feed ramps
Check for home gunsmithing of feed ramps


Rifle does not lock open after last round:

Weak magazine spring
Damaged follower
Bad ammunition (low pressure= cycle failure)
Magazine is not fully seated
Damaged bolt catch
Carbon buildup around bolt catch


Rifle does not fire when trigger is pulled (Click but no bang):

Broken firing pin tip
Carbon on back of firing pin = less protrusion
Weak hammer spring
Excessive headspace
Bad ammunition (faulty primer)
Missing firing pin
Bolt is out of battery (check for bolt bounce)


Rifle double fires or string fires:

Improperly adjusted adjustable trigger
Worn out military trigger
Home gunsmithing stoning job
Missing trigger spring
Missing or worn disconnector
Carbon build up on firing pin


Round is jammed under charging handle:

Worn magazine feed lips
Worn magazine spring


Rifle double feeds when shot:

Bad magazine
Broken extractor
Worn extractor spring
Carbon in chamber


Trigger won’t move when pulled:

Obstruction underneath (primer or rock)
Safety selector is engaged
Bolt is locked open

Round doesn’t extract when shot:

Broken extractor
Worn extractor spring
Dirty or corroded ammunition
Case head separation
Carbon in chamber
Lacquer coated ammunition


Round does not fully chamber:

Dirty or corroded ammunition
Improperly sized reloads
Tight headspace (check proper bolt fit)
Carbon in chamber

Bullets keyholing on target:

Improper bullet weight to rifle twist ratio
Check for rifling in barrel

Magazine inadvertently drops out of rifle:

Improperly seated magazine
Broken or faulty magazine catch
Ambidextrous magazine catch
Worn out polymer magazine
Bargain quality polymer magazine

Extractor breaks frequently:

Discontinue use of steel case ammunition

Bolt is frozen half way back:

Buffer is lodged in buffer tube
Check for rough machining of buffer tube

Rifle won’t hit broad side of barn:

Optic is not properly sighted in
Poor quality ammunition
Check for proper ammunition caliber
Operator error, contact local instructor for training

Ramone
May 8, 2012, 11:23 AM
Magazines and Ammo are always my first suspects.

Insufficient Lube, not so much, especially in a broken-in rifle, but some basic first maintenance is where I'd start before I even looked at mags and ammo. Strip it, check it, lube it.

TxBobS
May 8, 2012, 11:38 AM
You need to correct this to start. The most common AR stoppages are caused by MEAL. Mags, Extractor, Ammo, Lube.

Get some quality Mags, usgi or Pmags. Give the tapco's away.

I run my gas rings wet, a little Tetra grease on the bolt rails and the rest is pretty much dry. Five drops of oil should lube the rifle.

This says it all. An AR needs to be lubed, but it only needs it in a few key places. The entire BCG does not need to be "wet'.

elrowe
May 8, 2012, 11:51 AM
This says it all. An AR needs to be lubed, but it only needs it in a few key places. The entire BCG does not need to be "wet'.
Agree - three trips to Iraq and a whole lot of range time have shown me that ARs don't FTF if they're not lubed - makes them sound raspy and wear faster, but never saw a lube-related FTF except if overlubed BCGs got covered with sand.

bomberbill357
May 8, 2012, 02:01 PM
Check and see if the bolt carrier key is loose. I've seen three bushmasters have the same problem within the first 500 rds. All three the gas key was wobbling. Once you tighten them up everything is fine

TonyAngel
May 8, 2012, 02:05 PM
TThey don't have to be clean at all to function, just well lubricated, and dripping wet is better than dry. Google "Fithy 14", it's a mid-length BCM rifle used by Pat Roger's company that last i heard was over 40,000 rounds, and has NEVER been cleaned, just lubricated.

What I should have said is that I wonder how dirty an AR has to be before it stops functioning. I do, however, agree with the above statement. Overly wet is better than dry for keeping the rifle running.

Captains1911
May 8, 2012, 05:17 PM
Just to clarify, I am not implying that the BCG needs to be dripping wet to function, but rather if the tendency is to under-lubricate than dripping wet is the better alternative. The worst that will happen if it's too wet is you may get some oil spit in your face on the first few rounds.

ratt_finkel
May 8, 2012, 08:55 PM
Sorry I didn't get back to you guys sooner. But it was the mag.

Tried another mag and manually cycled 3 rounds with no problem.

Took it to the range and it shot wonderfully. So, lesson learned: don't buy tapco mags lol

Funny thing is, I've got a lot of rounds through it with no problems. I did take pics of the malfunction if anyone really wants to see it.

Also, it's not the mag catch that's broken. It's actually the bolt release.

TonyAngel
May 8, 2012, 09:34 PM
ratt, glad to hear that you figured it out. Check out 44mag.com and get yourself some good mags. As for the bolt release, I often order small parts like that from pkfirearms.com. They ship quickly. Of course, you can probably pick it up locally too.

ratt_finkel
May 8, 2012, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the tips Tony. I have several other mags and just bought the tapco because it was on sale. I'll stick to the usgi and pmags from now on.

Any recommendations on the bolt release? Or does it really matter?

TonyAngel
May 8, 2012, 10:53 PM
Well, I don't know what your situation is, but if you want to stock up on range mags, I bought a bunch of Thermolds (I believe they are) from CDNNinvestments.com for something around $3 each. I wouldn't use them for anything important, but they've run without a hitch at the range.

If you enjoyed reading about "AR-15 Failure to feed issues" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!