[misterfxt]

Hi Folks,I not trying to startup old discussions about the serious dangers of reclaiming lead from defunct batteries. Iknow it can be fatal. What I'd like to know is there is anyone here with perhaps a chemistry background that could explain how to clean the arsenic and calcium and other dangerous materials out of the mix to leave a pure relatively safe material for working with.
Like many of you, I work with extremely poisonous substances safely
Please don't just answer with "you'll die" or it's perfectly safe as is.
I'm try to find out if any members really know how to separate the different materials safely and would consider passing that knowledge along. And yes I am smart enough to not believe everything that is written. This is the starting point in my research and I hope I have not stepped on any toes.
yes I have read many posts regarding this subject but I don't think the question has been asked this way or ever truly answered

Forgive typos,I'm on my kids smartphone and it's awful tiny. Thanks,Jerome

[Certaindeaf]

Yea, don't do that.

[Murphy4570]

Just send batteries to the scrapper, you'll make enough money scrapping them to go buy all the lead you want.

[Striker Fired]

Its done with sulfer oxide , plus other processes,but I don't think it can ever be done in any home setup.You can clean it up to a point, but beyond that it takes more cemicals and reclemation system that it just isn't worth it. I doubt if you'll ever find anyone that knows what is in battery lead, that will ever tell you there is a "safe" way or even possible to do at home.
Just get your lead elseware (PERIOD)

[Shadow 7D]

You can smelt the lead
but you don't want to
it's best done where you won't breath the by products and the lead won't be what you can get elsewhere.

[kingmt]

Watching. I know of 2 guys that buy battery soft lead for BP from the scrap yard. I don't know how it is processed tho.

I hope to learn more from your thread.

[Quoheleth]

Dont do it.

Years ago I worked at a car garage. One of my monthly jobs was to stock our battery supply and help load the junk batteries. The acid in the batteries is no joke and the fumes will hurt you. You spill that stuff or a neighbor finds you doing battery reclamation and you'll have the EPA on you like fleas on a coon dog and your "free lead" will cost you bigtime.

Trade the car battery for wheelweights.

Q

[Walkalong]

The average Joe does not have the ability to do it safely while being cost affective. Leave it to the pros to reclaim.

Sell them, trade them, but don't try to smelt them. :)

[kingmt]

The acid isn't any worse to dump then your jar of pickles. You can buy the acid at the hardware in the plumbing section to pore down your drain.

[Uniquedot]

The acid isn't any worse to dump then your jar of pickles. You can buy the acid at the hardware in the plumbing section to pore down your drain.

I'm sure the EPA would let you know in an unpleasant and costly way the difference between pouring battery acid into a septic system or on the earths surface...or the difference between vinegar and battery acid as well.

[kingmt]

If you pore it in your septic is is going into the ground. Where else do you think it would go?

If your soil is alkaline you may help it out a bit. It would probably make your Roses grow.

[41 Mag]

Last I heard from one fellow was that they were giving around $10 per battery at the scrap yard.

For around 7 batteries, you can pick up around 70# of pre-smelted ingots from several places, have them delivered to your door, and all you need to do is put it into your pot, heat it up, and pour it into boolits.

I ain't the brightest bulb on the string, but the hassles of salvaging battery lead, and yes I have done it, are way more effort than the above mentioned process.

You also have the benefit of not having to deal with the unwanted metals and waste from the batteries.

Also most of today's batteries do not contain the amounts of lead plates as they used to. Many use zinc and other unwanted metals which also pose a bigger health issues once you start to heat them up.

There is plenty of info on this over on Castboolits.com, look or search under lead and lead alloys.

[cfullgraf]

An aside and it has been a while since I dealt with fork truck batteries which are lead acid, the EPA considered "dead" batteries as hazardous waste and to ship them required all sorts of regulations to be followed. Good batteries were not hazardous waste and could be easily shipped. In simple words, it was a pain in the ass to send batteries off to be repaired, but no issue getting them back.

Regardless of the safety concerns, lead yield from batteries using simple methods available to the hobbyist is small compared to the debris generated makes it not worth the effort.

I agree with comments already made.

[Uniquedot]

If you pore it in your septic is is going into the ground. Where else do you think it would go?

Well yes in rural areas, but the urine and feces in the septic tank will take care of it and it's contained in the tank. If any were to get out through the field lines it would already be neutralized.

As far as staying out of trouble with the EPA goes my sister was burning boxes in her back yard and decided to throw some plastic bottles on the fire. A distant neighbor saw the black smoke and called the EPA and after they came out and investigated and determined that plastics had indeed been burned there they surprised her with a twenty five thousand dollar fine. This was in a rural area.

[Carl N. Brown]

What Murphy4570 said:
Just send batteries to the scrapper, you'll make enough money scrapping them to go buy all the lead you want.

The metal recycler is equipped to reclaim lead from batteries, and with the money you can buy lead properly alloyed for making bullets.

[kingmt]

It isn't contained in the tank. Every time something goes in the tank something comes out. The test them by dumping die in to see how many minutes it takes for it to show on top of the ground.

Considering urine is acidic it can't neutralize it. Now if you dump other chemicals in they may. There is another drain cleaner that is Costic Soda which is on the far other end of the pH scale that will neutralize it but the reaction when the 2 meet will not be pretty. Well maybe pretty cool as long as it isn't in your face.

OP
I'm sorry for draging your thread of topic. Is it the acid that people are afraid of or is it melting the lead that releases toxins.

[Shadow 7D]

the EPA takes a dim view of polluting the ground water with lead, which is going to be on of the 25,000 dollar fines you will be facing

Hasmat isn't a joke, and every time the EPA turns the screw and fines more money, they keep a HEFTY percentage to buy new F350 with all the accessories

ever seen the EPA driving a forest service or national parks beater???

[JohnM]

The doom and gloomers will gnash their teeth and wring their hands, but if you spill or break a battery, you ain't gonna die or create a superfund site.
And an EPA swat team isn't going to come swooping down on you.

The problem with modern batteries is there are an assortment of heavy metals used in the plates now which create some deadly gases and by-products when melted. There just isn't a simple way to refine them out and batteries just aren't worth it.

[MachIVshooter]

The doom and gloomers will gnash their teeth and wring their hands, but if you spill or break a battery, you ain't gonna die or create a superfund site.
And an EPA swat team isn't going to come swooping down on you

Just as they won't when you're high pressure AC hose in your car bursts. But let them catch you deliberately and routinely venting freon into atmosphere....

[bluethunder1962]

I am sure everybody prob knows this but just incase you don't go to a junkyard and ask if you can get the weights off the wheels. There should be tons of that.

[JohnM]

I am sure everybody prob knows this but just incase you don't go to a junkyard and ask if you can get the weights off the wheels. There should be tons of that.

Those days are just about gone. In a lot of states the lead fear has stopped that and even tire shops can't dispose of WW except to authorized recyclers.
There's still some around, but the days of getting all you want just for hauling them off are finished.

[SlamFire1]

An interesting video of three minute duration of industrial battery recycling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJj5iIwF8p4

Apparently we ship so many car batteries to Mexico and they are not careful about the processes, it is causing heath issues there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/science/earth/recycled-battery-lead-puts-mexicans-in-danger.html?pagewanted=all

I have been reading warnings in print, from at least the 60's, not to attempt to smelt battery lead.

[Striker Fired]

2400F heat used to "burn" the sulfieds out of lead. That I think is what it takes to make battery lead "normal".

[Uniquedot]

OP
I'm sorry for draging your thread of topic. Is it the acid that people are afraid of or is it melting the lead that releases toxins.

It's not the acid that causes the problem. It's the calcium in the plates according to a couple of manuals i have. I believe Richard Lee made some mention of it in his book modern reloading as well.

[MichaelK]

Calcium is not that what is so problematic. Modern battery lead is alloyed with arsenic, though it's not immediately hazardous upon melting. The arsenic separates from the molten load in the surface dross that floats on top of the lead. After the arsenic loaded dross cools and adsorbs moisture, it is converted to poisonous arsenate gas. Got that information from Dean Grennell's "ABC's of Reloading".

The sulfuric acid is quite concentrated, enough to eat holes in cotton clothes and concentrated enough to dissolve human flesh. I myself have kept a pair of pants I ruined because I was silly enough to try to "revitalize" an old battery.

Other metals like zinc have been cleaned out of lead alloy by fluxing the molten alloy with powdered sulfur. The zinc comes out of the alloy as zinc sulfide in the dross. The fumes from burning sulfur however might be almost as bad as breathing arsenate gas. I see it as a lose lose situation no matter what you do.

[Uniquedot]

Calcium is not that what is so problematic. Modern battery lead is alloyed with arsenic, though it's not immediately hazardous upon melting. The arsenic separates from the molten load in the surface dross that floats on top of the lead. After the arsenic loaded dross cools and adsorbs moisture, it is converted to poisonous arsenate gas. Got that information from Dean Grennell's "ABC's of Reloading".


All scattergun shot contains arsenic and many wheel weights as well, but i have never read an article warning us to not use shot or ww's. I suppose it must have something to do with the extreme heat involved in purifying the plates. BTW one of the sources i cited about the calcium is an issue of abc's of reloading as well.

[jim243]

Is it the acid that people are afraid of or is it melting the lead that releases toxins.

It's both, one will kill you fast the orther slowly. Arsonic, nickel, tin, lead are all matalic substances that do not have a half life, they are with you forever, yes your body will become accustomed to them, but they do have side effects. Brain damage and nerve damage are the two major ones.

Here's an idea, instead of poisoning the neighbor's kids and everyone's drinking water. We put a ton of lead into the ground every weekend at the range. Our range twice a year has the burms combed and the spent lead removed (really tons of it). Contact the range and see whom they use for the lead removal. Much safer to use reclaimed spent bullet lead than batteries. If your a member they may even give you a discount.

Jim

[jcwit]

Deleted, looks like I was wrong.

[Nullcone]

It's the calcium in the plates according to a couple of manuals i have

Make it Cadmium and you're on your way to understanding part of the problem.

Cd is fairly volatile for a metal and high smelting/processing temperatures can fume it off. You don't want to breathe this stuff. Really.

Not to mention the Arsenic. Well, let's mention it anyways... along with Lead, it can form some interesting organometallic compounds that are not only very toxic but can also easily be absorbed by contact.

Sulfur compounds/acids? Not too toxic actually. They kill you the old fashioned way by destroying copious amount of important tissue.

Kind of a pain to work with concentrated acids. Combined with high temperatures, all sort of interesting vapors can be given off... like the ones that can be adsorbed onto say the eyeball or somewhere in the lungs (see "important tissues" above). Which then react with the moisture there and return to good ol' sulfuric acid.

There are over 300 million of us in this country alone now. We can't keep doing everything like great, great, great (great...) grandpa did. Get your Plumbum from a better source.

[Striker Fired]

My guess is this thread was started by a troll, no followup posts from op???

[kingmt]

Well I'm glad he did. I'm learning.

"Kind of a pain to work with concentrated acids. Combined with high temperatures, all sort of interesting vapors can be given off... like the ones that can be adsorbed onto say the eyeball or somewhere in the lungs (see "important tissues" above). Which then react with the moisture there and return to good ol' sulfuric acid."

Like a onion.

People don't realize how much of this stuff we come in contact with every day.

I was thinking of reclaiming half a dozen myself but I my prolong it a while now. Maybe just keep it a thought.

[cbuttre835]

There used to be a lead smelter near where I lived. Around midnight they turned the good stuff out into the river or air or something. It'd make your chest hurt.

For years they gave smashed cases away for folks to use as roadbuilding materials. They worked good as gravel. When the EPA got involved and made 'em clean up their act they dug up dozens of driveways and barn lots because of residual lead.

Lots of nasty stuff there... antimony, arsenic, cadmium and zinc, in addition to lead.

[Duckdog]

Doesn't it make stroitium gas or something like that? That is what I had read once along the lines many years ago. Like one of the posters said, you can get lead delivered cheaper.

I have a good supply of lead, but I did order a couple of hundred pounds from ebay and had very good luck. Some was soft range lead... as adveritised, and some was ww, as advertised.

I think in each case it was around $1 lb. Not too bad for clean lead and not having to scrounge around getting turned down in most spots.