[igotta40]

My brother and I were taking pot shots with my Ruger Mk 3 Saturday at some lumber at about 12 feet distance... Standard Remington Thunderbolt lead bullets... they went completely through a 2 by 6 board and stopped on the back side. I could peel the mushroomed lead out of the back of the lumber. I thought they would just bounce off or at best penetrate a quarter inch or so... I was impressed!

Begs the question... is the .22 a good enough SD caliber to handle a threat?

[ArchAngelCD]

There are MANY threads discussing this topic, some only as old as 3 or 4 weeks. If you do a search you will find more reading that you want...

[Rampant_Colt]

http://i47.tinypic.com/34h8fnt.jpg


Are you incapable of properly handling a more suitable firearm because of arthritis or injury? If it's the only firearm you have for self-defense, then yes, it'll work in a pinch. The .22LR would definitely not be my first, second or even third choice for S-D. If you "gotta .40", use that instead.

You choose self-defense firearms and ammunition based on a worst-case scenario, not the best. You are, of course, free to choose any firearm you want, but there are sound reasons for why some ammo and firearm types are recommended over others. Reminds me of when President Reagan was shot with a .22LR handgun in 1981; he didn't even know he was shot until he was inside the limo and noticed he was bleeding.

Many shotguns are available in the $200 range and would be much more suitable for handling threats and/or self-defense. You want to cease hostilities and threats immediately. The .22 rimfire may psychologically cause a bad guy to halt aggressions, but physiologically it is a poor choice unless the spinal cord, brain or heart is hit. Add adrenaline, drugs, and uncertain dimensions to the equation and there are no guarantees. Not even a shotgun is going to work 100% of the time, but will increase your chance of a hit in a stressful situation, and halt the threat much quicker

[ArchAngelCD]

Many shotguns are available in the $200 range and would be much more suitable for handling threats and/or self-defense.
Good idea but even that estimate is too high. You can buy a break open H&R shotgun for under $100. If it's used probably under $65 in some local stores.

[Rampant_Colt]

Good idea but even that estimate is too high. You can buy a break open H&R shotgun for under $100. If it's used probably under $65 in some local stores.
I agree, but wouldn't recommend a single-shot shotgun for self-defense. Remember, there are sound reasons for why some firearm types are recommended over others.

[smalls]

I think Rampant Colt has given the best answer to this question I've ever read. Good job!

[Jim K]

I have not personally seen the results (and didn't particularly care to) but I have been told of cases where a .22 LR fired from a rifle completely penetrated a human torso, so I think penetration is not a problem, though energy might well be.

Still, I would not care to say that a .22 LR has nothing going for it but psychological value. It is fully capable of "psyching" an attacker right into the grave.

Jim

[TonyAngel]

I do believe that more people are killed by .22s than any other caliber, simply because there are so many of them. Still, using a .22 for self defense would be a last option thing. Frankly, if I was in the confines of my home and in close quarters, I'd probably prefer a good sized knife to a .22.

If you do wind up having to use a .22 for a self defense firearm, I'd get one with the longest barrel as is practical for the intended use. I remember shooting at some form of hard cover book with a .22 handgun that had a very short barrel and it didn't even penetrate the cover.

I wanted to add that shot placement if very important with these small caliber handguns, especially those with short barrels and low velocities. I once represented a guy that shot another guy in the head (in self defense) with a Beretta .25 auto. The bullet entered just about the scalp line, and the bullet followed the contour of the skull until is exited nearer to the rear of the head. All it did was stun the guy and give him a headache.

[brnmuenchow]

Begs the question... is the .22 a good enough SD caliber to handle a threat?

Better than nothing, but not my first, second, or even third choice. Take the 7.62X38R Nagant round, it would be sufficient for self defense, but not ideal either... you would be better off with a .9X19mm or .40 S&W.
IMO of course.:)

[jimbo555]

I'd rather have that ruger mk3 than a seecamp 380 against the threat.Least you may have a chance of hitting something!I personally can make hits much easier with my walther tph than with a pocket 380.I haven't tried them all but since only hits count I trust that little walther more than my little 380.

[FMF Doc]

Killing someone is not the goal of self-defense shooting. The goal is to stop the threat as quickly and completely as possible. The result of this is frequently death. A .22 will kill a human, or a deer, elk or bear for that matter. But it will likely take a while. If you are in a situation that calls for deadly force in self-defense, you want to stop (and if necessary kill) the threat as quickly as possible. Waiting for them to die after being shot with a .22 5 mins later does not accomplish the goal and could very liely put you in the mourge next to the assailant. An instantaneously disabling shot from a .45 is entirely preferable to a slowly fatal .22

The operators in the Special Forces community are some of the best pistol marksman out there. They could probably get their job done with a .22--they generally use a .45 Kind of makes you wonder if they know something you don't?

[MCgunner]

Quote:
Many shotguns are available in the $200 range and would be much more suitable for handling threats and/or self-defense.


Good idea but even that estimate is too high. You can buy a break open H&R shotgun for under $100. If it's used probably under $65 in some local stores.

I'm much more comfy with a .22 pistol in my pocket. They aren't quite big enough for my H&R 10 gauge turkey gun, even with its 24" barrel. And, well, the gun's a might heavy for even IWB at 9 lbs. :D And, that one set me back 200 bills.

I have center fire carries...just sayin'. :D

[hogshead]

A 22 is a whole lot better than a sharp stick.

[Onward Allusion]

A sharp stick is sometimes enough to handle a threat, therefore a 22LR from a handgun most definitely will sometimes take care of a threat. I guess the key word is sometimes. I would feel A LOT better using a 22LR rifle from 50 yards away if the 22LR cartridge was all I had. :)

[mljdeckard]

In close quarters I might prefer the sharp stick. I can inflict a LOT of cavity trauma with one.

[MCgunner]

Close quarters, i'd rather have my back up NAA .22 mini. Screwed in his ear, at the very least, he'll have a severe headache. Should distract him long enough to get to my 9 and, hell, it's more humane than shooting him with pepper spray. Pepper spray hurts! :D

[allaroundhunter]

Begs the question... is the .22 a good enough SD caliber to handle a threat?

Please let's not start this again...

[Carl Levitian]

It really all depends on the person behind the gun. Who would you rather face; Bob Mundan with a .22 Ruger or a inner city gang banger with a Glock?

A .22 will most likey work, but a larger caliber will work better if you put the shot where it counts. Again, all user competence.

[Bushpilot]

Frankly, if I was in the confines of my home and in close quarters, I'd probably prefer a good sized knife to a .22.

Now I'm not about to make great claims about the relative stopping power of a 22LR, especially when fired from a hand gun, but there is no way that I personally would prefer a knife. While a 22 may not "stop" an aggressor in the same way that a more powerful round would, being fired at, or shot by 22 would in my opinion be more of a deterrent then a knife, especially if the aggressor is also armed. There is certainly no guarantee that a single, successful strike with a knife will incapacitate an attacker. Also, a successful "strike or multiple strikes" with a knife would be much more dependant upon skill, strength, luck and surprise than "hits" with a 22.

[allaroundhunter]

I agree, but wouldn't recommend a single-shot shotgun for self-defense. Remember, there are sound reasons for why some firearm types are recommended over others.

I would recommend a single shot shotgun over a .22 handgun for home defense to anybody who can handle the shotgun. It is much more likely to be a one-shot stop, and reloading does not take very long at all.

Frankly, if I was in the confines of my home and in close quarters, I'd probably prefer a good sized knife to a .22.

I see the .22 as a very underpowered round for SD, but that is still a very bold statement. I have some knife training, but I still will not take a knife to a gunfight if I have another option; even if it is just a .22 LR.

[doc2rn]

I would only use it if I had an American 180!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeCrYzcR7s

[Skribs]

One of the things about the .22 is that you're going to have to use FMJs to get reliable penetration. You can get a much, much bigger hole out of something else that expands.

[Kiln]

As far as the shotgun argument goes, a 12 guage is always a better choice than a .22lr for defense. A Mossberg Maverick 88 can be had for around $170 out the door at Walmart so you won't be out much and they work very well. Mine has been shot ALOT with absolutely no problems.

I don't think that .22lr is inadequate as it has proven itself capable many, many times over the years. Personally if relying on a .22lr pistol for defense I'd fire multiple shots center mass and hope for the best. There are better options than .22lr for defense but don't tell that to the tons of baddies that have been killed by the round over the years that broke into people's houses.

It is kinda like .32S&W in the way that it is often considered to be too weak for self defense these days but it put alot of guys in the ground back before bad guys became nearly invincible. ;)

Am I saying that these things are the best option ballistically in the present day? No. Am I saying that they work well enough that I wouldn't be worried to use one for defense? Yes, personally. You have to make the decision for yourself if it is powerful enough for you to trust with the defense of your life.

[MedWheeler]

Count me among those who would prefer a .22LR (especially if a good rifle or carbine) firearm to an edged or impact weapon for home defense. I do keep a Ruger 10/22 (modified) ready at night, but my most-likely first-grab gun will probably be my PF9, simply because it is almost always on me, and goes next to the bed when I get into bed.
More BGs are likely to cease being a threat when confronted with a firearm than with an edged or impact weapon, and they likely won't pause to analyze the caliber. Of those that linger, virtually all will run (or attempt to) once fired upon, again, ceasing to be a threat. The vast majority of the one or two per thousand that are capable of fleeing but don't after that stay because they surrender. Perhaps one in a few thousand continues his attack, and simply gets shot again.
For this, I'm assuming we're only talking of cases involving would-be victims that did nothing to bring on the attack, and were targeted at random, or by assailants who were only motivated by material gain, and not as hired killers (or zombies.)
In the right hands, the .22LR can be quite effective. However, I agree that almost none of us here have the "right hands", or we simply have "better" options. For what I am likely to be up against should I become targeted, I would trust it. However, because I have "better" options readily available, I choose not to rely on the 22LR for my personal and family's first line of protection.
I did find the following to be some interesting reading, not just because of caliber, but also the techniques and tactics discussion. It's not posted here to sway anyone into thinking the 22LR is a good choice if they do not already agree. I think it's just impressive.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

[j1]

A 22 is far better than a sharpened stick but why not use something not a rimfire. Centerfire are more dependable and there are far better cartridges to bet ones life on.

To me a self defense round is a stopping round. That means it stops the action, now, rather than killing someone by waiting for him to bleed out.

[45_auto]

Personally if relying on a .22lr pistol for defense I'd fire multiple shots center mass and hope for the best.

You must be a believer in one of the "magic" one stop pistol calibers. Which one do you recommend where you would use a technique other than that you described for the .22?

[allaroundhunter]

Personally if relying on a .22lr pistol for defense I'd fire multiple shots center mass and hope for the best.

I'm not even going to "hope for the best" with my 9mm; I am going to hope that it only takes a few rounds, but I will be ready to shoot more.....with a .22LR I am going to empty the gun into the BG's chest (unless of course he stops being a BG before I finish unloading the gun).

[Carl N. Brown]

Please. Does anyone realize how pernicious it is to promote the meme that a .22 is not a lethal weapon?

I have tested a Jennings .22 with a two inch barrel, with CCI Stinger, standard 40 gr, and Aguila 60 gr SSS ammunition against 2x4 and all three varieties easily penetrated 2 inches of solid pine..

Col Rex Applegate, author of Kill or Be Killed, considered any weapon capable of penetrating 1" of skin and flesh a potentially deadly weapon.

In a block of ballistic gel, a .22 40gr solid bullet will penetrate 12 inches, turning a flip midways and stopping base first. If I were a block of ballistic gel, I would quake at the thought of being shot with a .22

[MCgunner]

I would only use it if I had an American 180!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeCrYzcR7s

Perfect if you're Jimmy Carter being assaulted by killer rabbits. :D

Knives? I am not a trained knife fighter, takes as much training as any combat martial art to perfect and constant training and a young body (I'll be 50 this year and my joints crack and pop a lot). I'll take my NAA mini over a knife ANY day. I've very good with a handgun, knives not so much. I'd kinda prefer my NAA .22 mag Black Widow loaded with Hornady PD to my .22LR, but then, I'd prefer my 9 to that and my .45 Colt to that and my shotgun to that and a 105 to that and a 120 in an Abrams M1 to that and.................

[Kiln]

You must be a believer in one of the "magic" one stop pistol calibers. Which one do you recommend where you would use a technique other than that you described for the .22?
Not even a little. It is only logical though that smaller amounts of lead means you need to put more holes in your target to get the same effect. One shot stops are for people who still think that the .45 will knock somebody down onto the ground and keep them there even from a hit in the shoulder.

Where 3 rounds of .45 center mass is likely to do the trick it may take several rounds that are less than half the size.

[mr.trooper]

Even a .22 'CB' will penetrate through 2 milk jugs of water - or length wise through a fox squirrel in my experience.

I can not recall ever having a primer issue with top shelf rimfire ammo. Anything CCI will be every bit as reliable as bulk centerfire ammo. You can expect to shoot thousands of rounds without any dead primers, which would make a failure to fire statistically inconsequential in any properly functioning firearm.

[MCgunner]

I can not recall ever having a primer issue with top shelf rimfire ammo. Anything CCI will be every bit as reliable as bulk centerfire ammo. You can expect to shoot thousands of rounds without any dead primers, which would make a failure to fire statistically inconsequential in any properly functioning firearm.

Properly stored, it takes decades to get any maypops of center fire. I can carry my NAA mini a month and 3 out of five won't fire. Sweaty, hot pockets contaminate the heal mounted bullet's powder/primer compound. So, I carry that gun as a back up, always rides in my weak side pocket, I simply swap out old ammo for new every Sunday. I save the old in an old CCI mini mag box and fire it up at the range. I still get use out of it and no contamination duds in my back up. :D

Now, I can carry my center fire ammo in a pocket indefinitely without fear of sweat contamination, goes bang EVERY time. I rotate out carry ammo about yearly, not weekly. But, it's also more expensive.

[jmr40]

A 22, especially with FMJ ammo and when fired from a rifle will give quite a bit of penetration. A lot more than many understand. It still wouldn't be my first choice for SD, but would do a lot better then some give it credit for.

[Onward Allusion]

MCgunner
<SNIP>Properly stored, it takes decades to get any maypops of center fire. I can carry my NAA mini a month and 3 out of five won't fire. Sweaty, hot pockets contaminate the heal mounted bullet's powder/primer compound. So, I carry that gun as a back up, always rides in my weak side pocket, I simply swap out old ammo for new every Sunday. I save the old in an old CCI mini mag box and fire it up at the range. I still get use out of it and no contamination duds in my back up.<SNIP>

I used to do exactly what you'd described when I carried NAA Minis. What you say is very true about the 22LR cartridge. The healed bullet lets dirt and moisture migrate into the cartridge over time, especially in humid climates, including one's pocket.

[Odd Job]

My main beef with the .22LR is that it's rimfire. Not as reliable ignition compared to centerfire cartridges.

[hso]

Begs the question... is the .22 a good enough SD caliber to handle a threat?


No

Our objective is not to kill, but to stop an attack to keep from being killed or permanently injured. A .22 will kill, but it is a poor performer at quickly stopping an attacker. If you're trying to stay alive you need as large a caliber as you can reliably shoot. If you're a mafia assassin ambushing your victim a .22 will do.

Think about it this way, if a .22 were adequate as a lifesaver the police would carry them.

[arthury]

YMMV but experts said many times that penetration needs to be, at least, 12" and caliber needs to be wide enough to assure a larger permanent cavity. I believe them because they have spent more money than I doing research and multiple life-times of work in this area of terminal ballistics.

Human endurance and determination: this factor can trump even the most solid logical reasonings about terminal ballistics and this was seen in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shoot…). The 2 bad guys: one was shot 6 times and the other 12 times before they become a non-threat. And, the ammo used to hit them with were .38sp and 9mm Luger.

So, is the .22LR enough? You be the judge.

[jimbo555]

The only assurance of an immediate stop is a hit to the cns,brain,spinal chord.Is the 22lr capable of hitting the spinal chord or brain? Yes.

[KenW.]

Around the house a .22 Mag derringer in the pocket is better than the 1911.45 ACP locked in the safe.

[wyocarp]

if a .22 were adequate as a lifesaver the police would carry them

I wouldn't use that as a test for anything.

If one studies statistics on self defense stories, most "bad guys" are running at the presentation/firing of a weapon. It won't make any difference what the caliber is.

I'd fight anyone with 10 or 11 rounds of 22 in them.

[Tinker]

(Regardless of using a .22 for self defence.....)
Back a couple of years ago, when my brother-in-law and his family got into Glocks he made this "phone book penetration" deal. Dry phone books stacked 6 deep. One inch space in between each. He and the boys took turns with various pistols....9's, .40's and .45's.

I remember before BIL took his first shots witha Glock 23 that he just knew it was gonna blow a hole through all six. :) It made it back of the third book. Just for giggles, and to satisfiy my own curiousity as to what the .22 single shot I loaded with Aguilla 60grain SSS rounds would do. Those consistantly made it deep into the 4th. book. I kind of knew they'd do well because those 60 grains shoot well out of my little M6 Scout.

[MedWheeler]

Think about it this way, if a .22 were adequate as a lifesaver the police would carry them.

This old and tired cliche never goes away, does it? While I still do not promote the "lowly" .22 as the best choice for self-defense, there is a stark difference in the duty of a LEO and that of a person lawfully armed only for self-defense. The lawfully-armed-citizen (LAC) is not expected to run toward the sound of chaos and mayhem, not is he sworn to actually try to get "up close and personal" with those who would word hard to make his wife and kids grieve. The LEO is indeed duty-bound to do all of the above. If he has to fire his weapon, it may well be at greater ranges not typical of the LAC's SD range, and may also be through barrier material (such as a car door or window) not typically present in private SD situations.
The person who chooses to shoot it out with a LEO usually stays until the end. The person who accosts a LAC (and only does so because he does not know his would-be victim is armed) will almost invariably turn and flee, ceasing to be a further threat, if the LAC is able to produce armed resistance.
I am a former LEO. I carry greater than a .22, but I do not carry all the hardware as a LAC that I did as a duty cop. I don't know any who do.
For purposes of this discussion, LACs are not police.

[friscolatchi]

Lets see... 8 to 10 rounds of 22lr in the face? I sure as heck wouldn't want to be stung by those bees. That's all I'd expect from a pocket gun.

[What Would You Say]

With all the above said.. count me a thumb's up for Rampant Colts first response. It sums it up... and the photo was right on queue as well. It's a can of worms .. that question will do it every time as well, on the forum's that I'm not a newby on.

[longstandingletdown]

.22 cb long from a rifle will produce the same result mentioned by OP. A .22 rimfire is a capable defensive weapon, assuming that the proper ammunition is selected.

As a Jerry's Kid, I have been in the unsavory position of having to really consider using a Walther P22 for defensive usage. Bottom line is, use a fast, heavy bullet, most all will deform in tissue and bone, fire until threat is neutralized (does not necessarily mean dead), and then follow through with proper legal advising.

Upgrade as soon as is possible, and relegate the .22 to a training/last ditch weapon. Even a .32 acp would be better (and in a full size pistol, recoil is comparable to a P22 with stingers.)

Good luck, take care.

[beex215]

its always about shot placement for me. 22lr to your heart isnt a good picture

[YankeeFlyr]

A .22LR round has stopped a lot of men. Just not very reliably.

;)

[Kiln]

A .22LR round has stopped a lot of men. Just not very reliably.

;)
Same goes for a large selection of different rounds.

[Carl Levitian]

No handgun is going to give reliable stopping power, including the cult worship .45. Google the George Temple/Perry Stevens shooing. Temple absorbed .45ACP rounds on top of a .40 fired from the cops gun. Not until Stevens shot him right in the head did it have any effect.

It all comes down to how well the shooter cows his gun. Shot placement.