Poll: '8 small' vs '2 big' for BUG

I'm curious what the results will be.
Between a .25 automatic and a 38 Special derringer [for a BUG], which would you feel better with riding in an ankle holster and why?
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/738/image1mkr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/image1mkr.jpg/)

I don't think that 2 rounds of anything should be relied upon. Let alone the derringers I have seen require are SAA.

Can't say I have ever shot a .25 auto, or a derringer that I could get a decent hold on. Just plain uncomfortable. If I had to choose I would go with the .25, but use FMJ. Penetration>Expansion IMO.

.25 FMJ.... They may be tiny, but there's 8 of them!

I have no personal experience with either caliber but also fall under the school of "More is Better". Ask anyone you know if they want to be shot by a .22lr pretty sure I can guess the answer.

Will the .25 stop a 300lb ex con mutant hyped up on PCP, LSD, Coke, Bath salts and 8 gallons of whiskey.... No. Will it instantly and drastically change the mind of an assailant in 99% of situations you would normally encounter in everyday life, I would think so.

YMMV but this is my $0.02.

Never shot a 25 that would function for 2 shots so I went with the 38 even though I dont like derringers.I think either selections is poor would sell them and buy at least a Keltec 380.

Very extremist question. I went with the .25 but someone doesn't realize that there are 9's that are the size of 25's and plenty of .380's the same size that are cheap enough. Why a 25? Why in an ankle? Either choices you mentioned should only be used as BUGs to a BUG.

I carry a NAA mini revolver in .22 LR for a back up/always. Smaller than anything else even with its holster grip and very light. It backs up my 9mm pocket carry, usually, and is carried weak side so I'll have something weak side if I have my strong hand occupied in a fight or something .

Pyro
Poll: '8 small' vs '2 big' for BUG
I'm curious what the results will be.
Between a .25 automatic and a 38 Special derringer [for a BUG], which would you feel better with riding in an ankle holster and why?

Unless I had no other options, I wouldn't carry either.

Shooting 38's out of a derringer is not pleasant even with target rounds. Also, two of any handgun caliber is not good odds.

Between the two, I would go with the 8 rounds of .25ACP. The caveat would be that the pistol chambered in .25ACP must be in good solid functional shape with a good rifled barrel. It is amazing how important a good barrel is for these little pocket pistols. A poor barrel will sap the energy out of the lowly .25ACP.

Also, don't use an ankle holster - period. Use a pocket holster for little .25's. One of 'em in a back pocket easily pass for a wallet.

Finally, I recommend going with a KT P32 instead of a.25ACP if you have a choice.

If I was a bad guy I'd be more affraid of two .38's than eight .25 especially if I was wearing a thick jacket.

If I was a good guy Id rather a .22lr than a .25. But thats just me.

Depends on what derringer. Most are utter crap. Some not so much so.

At the end of the day, I'd go with an 8-shot .25ACP between the two, but neither is ideal. A flat .380 ACP or a .38 Special snub isn't all that much bigger.

Will the .25 stop a 300lb ex con mutant hyped up on PCP, LSD, Coke, Bath salts and 8 gallons of whiskey.... No.

If you shoot them in the eye, thoratic triangle/throat, or groin you might, but it's not odds I'd like to play...

Thick jacket or not,a couple to the face and crotch lets me get away from the situation.

There needs to be another choice - Neither

In this case, I will go for quantity.

As others have said, I would not carry it in an ankle holster (but to be fair, with the plethora of better mouse guns, I wouldn't be limiting myself to these two options either).

My answer is neither.

With guns like the Kel Tec P3AT & the like available, there's no practical reason to carry a Derringer or tiny .22/.25 pistol.

Lets look at it like this..........
A .25 automatic 8 rounds at 94 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 752 ft. lbs.
A .38 Spl. 2 round derringer at 235 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 470 ft. lbs.
Now......
A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........

I carry a Mini..........

Lets look at it like this..........
A .25 automatic 8 rounds at 94 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 752 ft. lbs.
A .38 Spl. 2 round derringer at 235 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 470 ft. lbs.
Now......
A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........

I carry a Mini..........

Or....

A .380 ACP, 7 rounds at 220 ft. lbs each; combined energy is 1,540 ft. lbs

We could go all day just sticking with the mouse guns category. Let's just stick to the OP's question...

Depends on if you carry a 38 as your normal gun. I'm a big proponent of carrying the same caliber as your regular carry as a BUG.
9mm P11 so I carry a 9mm derringer

A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........
What load are you using to get 204 ft. lbs. out of a NAA mini? You'd need to be at over 1500 fps with a 40 grain bullet. NAA only clocks their 1 5/8" barrel with .22LR at 600-800fps. NAA"s own information puts the energy from a mini more in the 40-55 ft/lb range.

Lets look at it like this..........
A .25 automatic 8 rounds at 94 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 752 ft. lbs.
A .38 Spl. 2 round derringer at 235 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 470 ft. lbs.
Now......
A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........

I carry a Mini..........

Then you may want to reconsider. .22lr making 204 fl/lbs out of a mini barrel is ridiculous. A rifle, sure, but not a <2" barrel. In most testing I've seen, around 100 fpe is the best you can manage, which is right on par with .25acp. This makes perfect sense, because .25acp was designed by JMB from the start to match .22lr in a centerfire form. The increased emphasis on reliability and the pocket guns that he decided to design for it suggest pretty heavily it was meant to be a .22lr for self defense. You've got a .25... a less reliable, rimfire, single action .25. I like my mini and carry it plenty, but don't think it's better than a reliable semi .25, because it's not.



http://naaminis.blogspot.com/2010/09/naa-mini-magnum-ballistics-shootout.html

As the OP already know just by the way he made the post both are on the "not so good" side but that said, I would trust a .38 Special more than a .25 Auto even if there are only 2 of them. Remember, this is a BUG, not a primary weapon. If you need to use a BUG things have gone very badly and the .38 Special will stop the fight a lot faster than a .25 Auto will. (IMO of course)

303tom
Lets look at it like this..........
A .25 automatic 8 rounds at 94 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 752 ft. lbs.
A .38 Spl. 2 round derringer at 235 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 470 ft. lbs.
Now......
A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........

I carry a Mini..........

Gotta keep in mind that the numbers for 22LR that you quoted come from rifle length barrels. Even the fastest 22LR out of a NAA Mini will only go 700 to 800 fps and that's out of the 1 5/8 barrel with 32gr Stingers or 40gr LRN HV. That's 40-something ft lbs. Take it down another 50fps or so for the 1 1/8" barrel.

The 25ACP was designed for short barrels and will generate around 70-something ft lb at the muzzle with the standard 50gr FMJ. Also, there's the issue of centerfire -vs- rimfire and semi-auto -vs- single action.

A 125gr 38spl from a 1" barrel will give you somewhere around 120 ft lb at the muzzle. Much better numbers but only 2 shots from a derringer.

Out of the 3 choices (NAA Mini in 22LR, 25ACP, or 38spl 2 shot), I'd take the 8 shot 25ACP.

If it's a last resort a DA 25 centerfire (like a Beretta) is I think preferable to a single action of ANY make. Be it a 5 shot 22 mag or a 2 shot derringer in whatever caliber.

My vote is for the .25ACP for the simple reason that you can get your shots on target faster. By the time you need to get to a backup there may not be time to cock or re-cock the action.

The .25acp is one of the least loved rounds on any internet forum. It won't kill anyone if you believe half the online population.

At one time though the .25acp was one of the most used rounds in homicides...well it was also one of the most used rounds in attempted homicides but still, my point is that while most people aren't comfortable with it as a SD round, it penetrates reliably and a "heavy coat" is unlikely to protect you from it despite what some will lead you to believe.

A quick google search will reveal alot of "bounced off his skull" type stories but in my honest opinion I believe that most of them are fiction. The ones that are true are also true of other calibers if they land at the right angle.

8 weak shots beats 2 strong shots IMO. All of this is strictly my personal opinion and I'm sure that some will disagree based on their own personal preference.

Contrary to the internet keyboard commando crowd, I have great respect for the .25acp. t's a gun, and it will kill you. The insane idiotic BS that I see repeated on gun based forums is worthy of a 10 year old who just parrots what he hear's with no thoughts of his own.

Many years ago I had an acquaintance named Al. He was a young guy in great shape, and was a part time karate instructor for a chain studio. Al was very into the martial arts, sometimes to an obnoxious degree. He put to much faith in it.

One evening he's on his way home from his day job in Washington D.C. and he's with some other commuters in a Metro parking garage. They take the elevator and when the door opens, there's a teenage inner city gang banger and he tells the three commuters to hand over their wallets, to "give it up".

Al the black belt goes to kick the gun out of the punks hand, misses, and gets shot with a Raven .25 right in the chest. He drops to the ground and the last thing he's heard to mutter before he dies is "Oh sh--"

A trained black belt karate guy who was in great shape was killed on the spot by a guy that most here make moronic comments about. Hey, it's a gun, and will kill you. Never under estimate a .25 or a .22. Al did and he's dead, leaving a widow and an orphan behind.

Think about it.

I'd have no problem carrying a nice old Browning .25.

In .25acp, I'd prefer carrying 9 rounds in a Beretta 950b (8+1).

.

Neither.

A trained black belt karate guy who was in great shape was killed on the spot by a guy that most here make moronic comments about. Hey, it's a gun, and will kill you. Never under estimate a .25 or a .22. Al did and he's dead, leaving a widow and an orphan behind.

I'm sorry your acquaintance was killed. I would imagine that Al did not necessarily underestimate the gun on bore size alone. He may have been willing to defend himself no matter if it was a .22 or a .45, being that Al's decision was probably made extremely quickly.

If it's a last resort a DA 25 centerfire (like a Beretta) is I think preferable to a single action of ANY make. Be it a 5 shot 22 mag or a 2 shot derringer in whatever caliber.

That's my way of thinking, too.

If I had only those two guns to choose from though.

I think the point was that Al was in good shape and the .25 ACP still stopped him. It does sound like your assessment is correct though Chicharrones.

I wouldn't carry either of these weapons.

But if I were forced to, I would carry the .38 derringer.

The .25 is just too pathetic for self defense.

Definitely not a fan of either, but I hate derringers. I know if I had a decent .25 auto I could dump the mag into a badguys chest, rather than struggling to get off two decent shots with a SA derringer.

I would go with the .25 auto x8 over the .38 x2. If it was .25 vs .410, I would go with the .410, but I don't think that .38 is a big enough difference to go with 1/4 as much ammo.

If these are your options, just get an ankle holster for a spare magazine. Considering some people ankle carry sub-compacts, it shouldn't be a problem to ankle carry a LCP/LC9, LCR, S&W Shield, Kel-Tec P3AT, or anything else in that size range.

"Hey, it's a gun, and will kill you."

No, it's a gun and it might kill you. There is no certainty about it. The bigger the gun/ammo the bigger the odds of it working.

People have been killed by .22 Shorts and also by falling flower pots, but those facts don't make either one a reliable method.

John

"Hey, it's a gun, and will kill you."

No, it's a gun and it might kill you. There is no certainty about it. The bigger the gun/ammo the bigger the odds of it working.

People have been killed by .22 Shorts and also by falling flower pots, but those facts don't make either one a reliable method.

John
I recall hearing a story on TV where a mobster in the 40's was shot 4-5 times in the head with a .22 short and none penetrated the skull...he then opened a knife and stabbed the guy to death.

I think the story was told by an undercover cop that was there during the event.

Either way I think everyone can agree that .22 short is one of the worst rounds for defense.

Absolutely, right up there with .22 LR and .25 ACP.

If you believe wikipedia...

.22 Short has energy numbers from 44 to 87.

.25 ACP has energy numbers from 63 to 94 ft.lb.
(according to Guns and Ammo, using a 2" barrel.)

.32 ACP isn't much better, but these numbers are from a 4" barrel: 123 to 128 ft.lb.

Carl, if you see my sig, you'll understand my position - I won't stand in front a a .25 ACP, but its not something I would trust my life on, either. .25 ACP appears to have less energy than .22 LR, and only in heavy, solid, hot loads is the .22 LR capable of meeting the FBI recommended 12" of penetration. The .25 ACP can certainly kill, but will it reliably stop a target? That is the question.

On the one hand you shouldn't underestimate it, but if you're trusting your life on it stopping an attack, don't overestimate it based on one event.

I felt kinda dirty voting for the .25... But like others, I want nothing to do with a 2-shot for self-defense... Even as a back-up.

Wouldn't carry a 25 acp. A 38 derringer isn't high on my list either. The new 380s are as small as I would go, but I would still rather carry a j frame.

I went from a two-shot .38 derringer to a five-shot two-inch revolver. Sometimes BUG to HK USP 40S&W, often primary gun.

I do have a six shot .25 auto. Once a year I take it out, fire the two magazines empty, clean it, reload the magazines with fresh ammo. It has always worked in the twenty years I have had it, and is easier to hit with than the derringer ever was, so I voted .25 pocket auto over .38 derringer.

.22lr making 204 fl/lbs out of a mini barrel is ridiculous. A rifle, sure, but not a <2" barrel. In most testing I've seen, around 100 fpe is the best you can manage, which is right on par with .25acp.

Not even, with a mini revolver. I tested a number of loads out of my 1-5/8". Even .22 magnum couldn't clear 100, and regular .22 LR 40 gr. HV ammo was between 815 and 880 FPS for a median energy of 65 FPE.

No current rimfire will make 204" out of a pistol barrel (unless it's really long). Energies I got from many loads in my PMR-30 were all between 140 and 162. Now, if I knew I was facing multiple opponents, I'd probably take the PMR over the P3AT or other pocket autos because it holds 4-1/2 times the ammunition. But then, if I actually knew what I was going up against, I'd simply be elswhere (or take a rifle if there were no option for avoidance).

If you can parry a PMR, you're not limited to pocket autos.

Back in my LEO days, I had a Hi Standard .22WMR derringer (DAO) as my backup - strictly a stick-it-in-their-ear-n-fire weapon. It rode in the small of my back, under my belt. A BUG (to me) means I've already lost use of my primary weapon and am in physical contact with my assailant. For that, I'd take a DAO .38 derringer, to do the most immediate damage.

People think clothing will stop a .25? Really?

If you can parry a PMR, you're not limited to pocket autos.

Oh, I know. When my clothing is heavy enough to conceal a full size, I carry a G20.

That said, if someone wanted to carry a small caliber, the PMR is about half the weight of any other large auto, both being fully loaded. More trim in the snout, too. With CCI TNT 30 gr. ammo, my PMR tips the scale at 19.1 ounces. I don't care for any rimfire as a defensive round, but a totally reliable .22 mag that carries 31 rounds wouldn't leave me feeling poorly armed.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/101_1103.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/101_1104.jpg

My P3 gets the most carry, because there is absolutely no need to dress around it. After that, my PF-9 when the shirt is untucked. With a looser shirt, it's between my Bulldog .44, S&W CS45 or 4516-1. When I'm wearing a jacket or coat, it's the G20.

I have an American Derringer 357 and a Colt vest pocket 25 acp, I have many other better suited for SD that get carried on a regular basis. IMHO these two are pretty equal so I'd say it would solely depend on what movie I was going to see. the last time I carried my Derringer was to see True Grit main gun was my real 3rd gen Colt SAA, the last time i carried the 25 was to see Public Enemy where my main gun was an original 1917 army revolver.

"People think clothing will stop a .25? Really?"


Yes, and some people think a sharp stick is better than some small callibers. Stupid statements like this make me ashamed to be a gun owner.

Geez, 8 rounds of an ineffective round--with all the modern guns I can think of in that caliber being less than stellar pieces--versus two rounds of a worthwhile round in an ineffective platform...

Which one is heavier?

That's the question my father would always ask. His theory of small guns - what he called throwers - was to throw them at the bad guy before you shot them because after you shot them they didn't weigh as much.

After serving in the Pacific in WWII and working as a state trooper he always wanted a gun big enough to club somebody and he didn't want to have to hit them a bunch of times.

John

Where is option #3, Go with something else alltogether that involves less "Suck".

I'd go with the .25ACP. A guy at the range let me shoot his Baby Browning one time, and I thought it was pretty slick.

The point is, It's a gun that I've never shot before (unless the baby browning, then its a gun I shot for about 2 minutes.). I'm not going to be used to it, And having 8 tries to get the point of impact and trigger pull figured out sounds better than two chances to figure out how the .38 shoots.

Would I rather have my LCP or J-frame? Yea, but if it was a question of choosing any gun, most realistic folks would opt for a full sized handgun, or long gun, and those of use who are prone to taking greater liberties would be utilizing some form of tank or bulldozer. I think these questions, the ones that force you to choose between two options, neither of them desirable, are a good brain teaser. Keep in mind, the gun you carry may not be the gun you have to fight with, and the more thought you put into weapon selection ahead of time, well, I don't see that as having a negative impact on my odds of surviving.

Here's another question for you: after reading the answers and reasons behind them, would you stick with your original answer?

My first instinct was the .38, but after giving it a little thought, and reading what others had to say about it, I realized that for me, that may not be the best move.

Thanks for entertaining the brief rant.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

I would not choose either one. You can get plenty of small autos in 9mm --there's no need for either the .25 ACP or the derringer.

J-frame .38 if you're using an ankle holster.

Quote:
A 5 shot NAA mini in .22LR at 204 ft. lbs. each, combined energy is 1020 ft. lbs.
Give or take a little on each of them, just look at the numbers........



What load are you using to get 204 ft. lbs. out of a NAA mini? You'd need to be at over 1500 fps with a 40 grain bullet. NAA only clocks their 1 5/8" barrel with .22LR at 600-800fps. NAA"s own information puts the energy from a mini more in the 40-55 ft/lb range.

Some folks seem to think .22LR performs the same out of an 18" rifle test barrel as it does out of a 1 7/8" NAA mini revolver. Such is NOT the case. Even .22 magnum only gets a little over 100 ft lbs best case from a 2" Black Widow. I've done the chronographing.

I've never shot a .25 that was not finicky. Couple that with the dismal performance of the round and it's even less appealing. I also don't like the idea of firing the .38 out of something as small as a derringer and can't imagine my one follow up shot being that effective. If all things were equal in terms of going bang, I'd pick the .25 auto.

I went with the 25 but i really like the round too bad its so expensive

Some folks seem to think .22LR performs the same out of an 18" rifle test barrel as it does out of a 1 7/8" NAA mini revolver. Such is NOT the case. Even .22 magnum only gets a little over 100 ft lbs best case from a 2" Black Widow. I've done the chronographing.
Exactly. This is why there is so much misinformation about .22lr vs .25acp as a defensive round. Barrel lengths during testing aren't taken into account.