Trouble at the mall with my firearm


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premier1
May 9, 2012, 09:18 PM
This Mon. at 2:00 in the afternoon in broad daylight my daughter was robbed at the mall at knife point. She works at one of the stores in this mall. I work in armed security. I currently guard a bank daily. I have a current Act235 license in Pa. required in my job, and I also have a personal CCW permit. I go intoday to escort my daughter out to her car, and the mall security tells me I can't be in the mall with my firearm. I explain to them that I have an Act 235 license and a personal CCW I was in uniform as I was coming from work. Act 235 allows carry to work,at work and from work legally. Personal CCW allows carry anywhere in the state except for federal instututions,schools, and detention centers. Does anyone here have knowledge in this matter.

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Salmoneye
May 9, 2012, 09:21 PM
Private property?

Sam1911
May 9, 2012, 09:22 PM
I go intoday to escort my daughter out to her car, and the mall security tells me I can't be in the mall with my firearm.
The property owner can always refuse you admittance and trespass you if you refuse to leave.

I assume you're carrying openly, in your work uniform?

Carrying concealed, there's little they can do about it, unless they know. You are not, by law, required to obey private property "gunbuster" signs, but if you are asked to leave (or not enter) you must do so. Your license does not give you immunity from trespass charges.

I'm sorry for your daughter's troubles and I'm glad she's ok!

dubya450
May 9, 2012, 09:23 PM
The only way you couldn't carry in the mall is if its posted that they ban firearms. Probably best just to conceal it anyway ..

Sam1911
May 9, 2012, 09:26 PM
The only way you couldn't carry in the mall is if its posted that they ban firearms. Probably best just to conceal it anyway .. Actually, posting it has no meaning under PA law. You do not have to obey signs.

However, you DO have to obey a direct request to leave (or not to enter). If you do not obey you can be charged with trespassing (armed) and that's not good.

Ohio Gun Guy
May 9, 2012, 09:38 PM
Too bad the bad guys dont read signs and the mall security wasnt as pro-active with them....


Shows what a sham the rules are.... :rolleyes:

dubya450
May 10, 2012, 12:28 AM
Sam, thanks for clarifying that. In Minnesota it needs to be posted somewhere near the entrance. Even if you do carry somewhere thats posted its banned say in a grocery store, the fine isn't very much and you won't be in much trouble, from what i understand. Now if its a school or government center that's a different story as it is anywhere in the U.S.

Steve in PA
May 10, 2012, 12:38 AM
What Sam said.

Carry concealed, and no one knows.

doc2rn
May 10, 2012, 02:57 AM
It just goes to show ya how the rules only apply to honnest folk. Criminals dont care about the privledges we have stripped away.

AFDavis11
May 10, 2012, 03:07 AM
I wonder why they permit thieves with knives.

Centurian22
May 10, 2012, 03:19 AM
Sounds like an establishment that I would no longer patronize! Sorry to hear of your daughter's encounter and sorry she must work in such a narrow minded and misled environment!

firesky101
May 10, 2012, 04:11 AM
Glad your daughter is ok. I wish you had replied "I see, and do you have a similar policy on knives. If so this is just a big misunderstanding, my daughter obviously did not get robbed on your watch." I understand you were likely very flustered, as I would have been if something similar happened, but sometimes you just want to give people a "here's your sign" moment.

Murphy4570
May 10, 2012, 08:18 AM
Your daughter needs to quit her job NOW, and find somewhere safer to work.

Rob G
May 10, 2012, 10:01 AM
Unfortunately ACT 235 is not at all relevant in this situation. What is relelvant is that the mall is considered private property and they're allowed to ask you to leave if they choose to. Next time leave the uniform at home and carry concealed. You shouldn't have any problems then.

silversport
May 10, 2012, 10:23 AM
usually carrying to work, at work and home from work would not allow you to carry to escort your daughter to her car...that said, I know what I'd do and I have always found if you wear a coat or an over shirt, many will not see you have a firearm on...good luck and sorry to hear about what happened to your daughter...

Bill

smalls
May 10, 2012, 10:35 AM
It sucks, but there's really nothing you can do about it. They have the right to not let you on their property for any reason. You can make not so high road comments about them not protecting your daughter to them, but that won't do much, either.
Give her some pepper spray and teach her how to use it, until she can find a new job. I'm glad she's alright.

Sitting in the parking lot until the employees start to leave the mall is a common criminal tactic. My ex worked at every store imaginable in the mall, and she had new stories every week about people getting robbed on their way out to their car.

paramedic70002
May 10, 2012, 10:44 AM
Good thing they stopped you from robbing the store while escorting your daughter. Let me guess, they were unarmed? Wait I'm on a roll, they had no idea your daughter was being robbed until she reported it?

gym
May 10, 2012, 06:16 PM
I would demand a security gaurd escorts her to you, either in the parking lot or ouside the main entrance. If they aren't allowing you to protect her , after such an incident and they refuse to do it themselves, you may have a good lawsuit. The threat of such, or going to the local newspaper,"or the mention of it" may get them to change their position. The last thing a mall wants is bad publicity. Newspapers eat this sort of human interest story up. a Headline that said local girl robbed at knifepoint at -- Mall, is sure to get a reaction. I think you need to speak to the management and bypass the Guard.

TITAN308
May 10, 2012, 06:22 PM
Georgia is great. We can even carry onto school grounds legally as long as we are picking up or dropping of a child who attends said school

Like other states, signs don't mean crap in this state.

Fishslayer
May 10, 2012, 06:27 PM
"The sign is wrong."

DMH
May 10, 2012, 06:34 PM
I agree with Sam1911, And I also like post #15, If you are asked to leave and the reason they give you is for carrying a firearm, you need to leave or you are breaking the law. The sign in the door or on the wall carries little weight, but being asked to leave by a store employee or management, or in this case a security officer brings it to a new level. If you ignore the sign and enter the building you have not broken the law, but once you are asked to leave and you do not or return still armed you have now committed a crime. This is how it works in Minnesota and I'm sure we copied it from another state.

DMH

Kevin Rohrer
May 10, 2012, 07:52 PM
It's interesting that Pa law allows security guards to enforce mall policy; or do they have the authority? They certainly DON'T in neighboring Ohio.

Trunk Monkey
May 10, 2012, 08:12 PM
I have some security experience and my first thought is I would be a little concerned if a representative of another security company showed up on my site in uniform and armed especially one acting in a manner that could very easily be construed as acting as an agent of the property owner, such as escorting one of the employees of the mall to her car.

I’m not saying I’d ask you to leave over that but I would find out what was going on.
Second thought, as a security officer yourself you should know that acting as an agent of the property owner does give the security officers employed at the mall the right to enforce their employers legal policies. As stated earlier they can trespass you off the property if you refuse their request to leave.

Last thought, don’t know PA law but in Colorado it is illegal for a licensed security guard to conceal a firearm while in uniform regard less of LTCF status or at least the law is grey enough that I wouldn’t do it.

I make it a point never to leave work in uniform and I believe this would solve your problem.

toejamm
May 10, 2012, 08:12 PM
Hey SAM1911.

I live in PA as well. I was doing some work at a local professional sports facility recently and I asked one of the employees what the policy was for concealed carry in their facility during game day. He said the head of security told him that is someone was armed (With a permit or not) they would be handcuffed and arrested immediately.

I knew that was BS. Your information above is very helpful. Do you know of a source where the laws are explained clearly, in layman's terms, other than the actual legislation/law itself?

I know I would appreciate it if you or someone else could suggest a site to obtain the information.

ClickClickD'oh
May 10, 2012, 08:18 PM
I work in armed security. I currently guard a bank daily. I have a current Act235 license in Pa. required in my job, and I also have a personal CCW permit. I go intoday to escort my daughter out to her car, and the mall security tells me I can't be in the mall with my firearm.

In uniform? You're lucky your company didn't fire you. I would have.

Sam1911
May 10, 2012, 08:29 PM
toejam, the usual site is www.handgunlaw.us.

You can also look over the PA Uniform Firearms Act, but the problem is you're looking to prove something ISN'T there, which it tough.

There is no PA law that says a sports facility is off-limits. You can be trespassed, but only if you've been told to leave and you refuse. Handcuffing? That's not going to turn out well for them if you have a good lawyer.

TaxPhd
May 10, 2012, 10:29 PM
Georgia is great. We can even carry onto school grounds legally as long as we are picking up or dropping of a child who attends said school

Only onto the parking lot, and the weapon can't leave your car.

Susanna
May 10, 2012, 11:20 PM
I agree with the comment above about having your daughter go to the mall security office and asking for an escort to her car. If they do not the mall may be liable for at least allowing an unsafe work environment for their contractors employees. I have NEVER been refused an escort request; actually, our facility security have asked if I needed an escort.

IF they refuse, and someone gets accosted on their property, they (the mall) are setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

As to the request to leave... sadly, the guards were well within their rights. It sux, I know, but if they ask you to leave, then leave you must. But again, TELL YOUR KID to stop by the security office and ask for an escort. Remember, just like your limited police powers at your contractee (place wherre you do security), they have the same right, and are likely following their company and contractee's written orders. If they didn't, then were I their supervisor I'd fire them, no matter how unfair.

OTOH, re YOUR employer firing you... absolutely no way. You might get a talking to about putting our company in a bad light to the mall (and the competition) but I would understand your motives, and would prolly give you a pass as long as it didn't happen again. Bottom line - escort your kid plainclothes as a private citizen, carrying concealed if you must (as long as you have a CCW) and if SHTF you can use your "profrssional experience" before a judge (or ore likely, with the cops you may already know as part of your job)...

Remember, the SO's at the mall are just like you-paid to enforce their clients rules and regs. If you're not a contracted SO at the mall, you maybe should shun your uniform first? We had a strict policy against going to another company's client's place of biz in uniform when I did SO work... just remember, you wouldn't like a stranger poking around in a competitors uniform at your client's POB...

mattmann
May 10, 2012, 11:51 PM
Concealed is concealed!

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Steve in PA
May 11, 2012, 12:40 AM
Whoever the security officer is that said a person carrying would be handcuffed and arrested is a lawsuit waiting to happen! No law was broken, only a policy.

As for security guards enforcing mall policy, its because they are acting as "agents" of the mall.

mgkdrgn
May 11, 2012, 08:00 AM
Your daughter needs to quit her job NOW, and find somewhere safer to work.
And where would that be, exactly? If you think that there is anyplace on the planet that is "safe", you are mistaken.

CajunBass
May 11, 2012, 08:23 AM
I wish you had replied "I see, and do you have a similar policy on knives

I doubt the BG was wearing a uniform, and open carrying his knife. If he had been, I suppose the same policy would have applied. It would where I work anyway.

I was in uniform as I was coming from work. Act 235 allows carry to work,at work and from work legally

You were going into the mall. Not to or from work.

Loosedhorse
May 11, 2012, 09:03 AM
The property owner can always refuse you admittance and trespass you if you refuse to leave.sadly, the guards were well within their rights.I agree. Until carrying a gun is recognized as a basic civil right, that will not change.

It may be that the SCOTUS (if its composition does not become anti-gun) will eventually hear a case and rule that carrying a gun (bearing, in RKBA) is a basic a civil right as owning one in your home. With such a ruling, we may get subsequent findings that a place that is open to the public can no more exclude legal gun-carriers than it can Hispanic persons or Hindus.

j1
May 11, 2012, 09:13 AM
Strange situation. You may carry to your job, on your job and from your job. Were you escorting your daughter while working or after work?

Trunk Monkey
May 11, 2012, 01:04 PM
The more I read this thread the less it seems to be a “gun” issue to me.

Maybe it’s because of my background but I see it as an issue of professional courtesy and in my experience professional courtesy dictates that I don’t show up on your security company’s site in my security company’s uniform.

As a matter of personal preference the only place I would go to while in uniform would be straight to work and straight home if I had to deviate fromn that I would change my shirt and remove my duty belt.

As I stated earlier Colorado Springs municipal ordinance prohibits licensed security officers from carrying a concealed weapon in uniform and it doesn’t specify on or off duty so that is not something I’d risk.

As stated earlier as I see it, the simplest solution to this problem would be to remove your uniform and duty belt before entering the mall.

hermannr
May 11, 2012, 01:15 PM
As a person that OC's regularly, the first question I would ask is: If this Mall Policy? or this security guards policy?

Like PA, here in WA a sign means nothing, legally. You have to be requested to leave...however, a sign does one thing...it tell you when you are requested to leave, the request is valid.

There are a lot of people that think open carry "should" be illegal, or not allowed...and should those people happen to be in a position that some would consider an "authority" they may try to enforce their own personal bias.

I did not see anywhere that this property is posted, so, was this security guard exercising his own personal opinion? Or that of the property owner? Secondly, property that is unrestrictedly open to the general public is looked at differently in the eye of the law than a persons private abode...Don't think so? Read te ADA

Sauer Grapes
May 11, 2012, 09:04 PM
Malls have been a sore spot for OC no matter who you are. Ever since Silvia Seacrest shot up the Springfield mall back in the 80's, malls are not gun friendly.
Your being a security guard, certified or not, won't cut any ice with mall owners, anywhere!

MedWheeler
May 11, 2012, 11:38 PM
Last thought, don’t know PA law but in Colorado it is illegal for a licensed security guard to conceal a firearm while in uniform regard less of LTCF status or at least the law is grey enough that I wouldn’t do it.

In Florida, it would only be prohibited if the SO was on duty. I see very few off-duty SOs in uniform; most of those (who are armed on duty) I have seen have either removed their sidearms, or their entire duty rig. I bet at least some of them were otherwise carrying.

carbine85
May 12, 2012, 08:52 AM
Use your CCW the way it was intended, keep it concealed and don't say anything or try to make a statement by showing. I technically violate the policies of private property all the time simply because I don't see the signs.

Gtimothy
May 12, 2012, 02:11 PM
The company I work for requires that we arrive at and depart our post in uniform. That being said, as I remember during training for my "G" licence, Armed guards are not allowed to wear their duty belt to and from work. I would think the company the OP works for would have a policy on that. I also remember that during training, the instructors kept reenforcing the fact that a security guard is not a cop so open carry off your duty post is not allowed while in uniform.

BSA1
May 12, 2012, 02:40 PM
I have worked off and on in private security for many years. If the O.P. had pulled that stunt where I am licensed his firearms permit would be yanked. The law is simple; carrying to and from work and while on duty. The police don't have any issues with stopping at the local shop-n-rob for gas but that is it.

I can only wonder what your employer thinks of the image your portraying by using your uniform and firearm off the job. For that fact I wonder also.

If your intention is to frighten robbers away with your uniform then you don't need a gun.

If you believe another armed robbery is likely to occured then legally packing out of uniform will avoid causing embarassment to your employer and not put your Private Police Permit in risk.

The last thing you need and your employer wants is your swaggering across the parking packing heat.

c1ogden
May 12, 2012, 03:57 PM
The mall in question may be within its rights to prohibit carry on its premises but I'd find out if it is, as another post said, mall policy or that guard's policy. If its only that guards policy then a formal complaint should be filed. If it is mall policy I'd ask if that applied to other guards that come onto the property. Does the mall require the Brink's guards to leave thier guns in the truck when making pickups at the mall? I would make quite a stink if they didn't have to and I did. That's simply discrimination.

I would be a little concerned if a representative of another security company showed up on my site in uniform and armed

Why?!!! I've worn my police uniform into many other towns and that's not a problem. I also don't have any problem with other cops wearing thier uniforms in my town. Why should it be a problem for security guards?


He said the head of security told him that is someone was armed (With a permit or not) they would be handcuffed and arrested immediately.


That sounds like a lawsuit to me. On top of that, I'd never let anyone other than a real cop handcuff or restrain me in any way and I'd suggest you don't either.

As far as a guard taking your gun, that would be illegal in my state as he has no authority to do so and, depending on the circumstances, could easily be charged as transferring a firearm without a permit, a felony for both of us. And, if the guard didn't have a carry permit, he'd be in unlicensed possesion of a firearm, another felony.

Trunk Monkey
May 12, 2012, 07:08 PM
Why?!!!

I would be a little concerned if a representative of another security company showed up on my site in uniform and armed especially one acting in a manner that could very easily be construed as acting as an agent of the property owner, such as escorting one of the employees of the mall to her car.

If you take my statement in context including the bolded part it becomes self explanatory.

As a security officer I am acting as an agent of the property owner and an empowered to enforce the property owner’s rules and policies on his property.

Most security companies that I have any experience with absolutely forbid their employees from working any type of side job in the company uniform because of the implied liability. The OP is walking around a mall for all intents and purposes acting as an agent of the property owner which he is not. Now even if that wasn’t his intent that’s how it looks to the casual observer.


I've worn my police uniform into many other towns and that's not a problem. I also don't have any problem with other cops wearing thier uniforms in my town. Why should it be a problem for security guards?


In Colorado if you are a POST certified peace officer anywhere in the state you are a POST certified police officer everywhere in the state. There is no such thing as off duty or out of your jurisdiction. This does not hold true for a security officer my authority (which is limited to enforcing company policy not laws) begins and ends at the property line.

Most companies I’m familiar with don’t have a problem with you stopping for gas or a soda or a pack of smokes going to or from work but to go out of your way to go to a mall to escort someone to their car (I.E to act as a security guard)? Or even to go shopping in a mall?

No.

Again, the problem ends when the uniform comes off

ClickClickD'oh
May 12, 2012, 08:43 PM
If its only that guards policy then a formal complaint should be filed.

Even if it isn't the malls policy, they won't go against the security guard in this situation.

If it is mall policy I'd ask if that applied to other guards that come onto the property. Does the mall require the Brink's guards to leave thier guns in the truck when making pickups at the mall?

The Brinks guards are on the job if they are making a pickup. They, and all that goes with them, have been invited onto the property to do their job. That isn't the same as some guy stopping to pick someone up... unless they are a PPO, in which case they should be operating with the knowledge of the mall.. that wasn't the case here.


I would make quite a stink if they didn't have to and I did. That's simply discrimination.

So what if it's discriminating? Last time I checked, off duty security guards weren't a protected class.
I'd never let anyone other than a real cop handcuff or restrain me in any way and I'd suggest you don't either.


You resist a security officer who is lawfully detaining you down here and it's a felony. A real quick end to your career as a law enforcement officer.

gamestalker
May 12, 2012, 09:05 PM
It's the same story here in arizona too! Private property trumps permits every time. I simply don't do business with establishments that are posted, and then I take the liberty to post on a web site we have in our state. Believe it or not, it has caused some business's to take down their " guns prohibited" signs and make public that they do allow us to carry inside such establishments. One such establishment that changed their gun policy is a well known and nation wide coffee house. You know who I'm referring to.
GS

Warp
May 12, 2012, 09:18 PM
This has been covered, but..Private Property. IF they don't want you carrying, they have that right. Conceal or don't go there at all for any reason.

Georgia is great. We can even carry onto school grounds legally as long as we are picking up or dropping of a child who attends said school

Like other states, signs don't mean crap in this state.

Georgia carry laws are NOT great. Until a few years ago they were pretty terrible. They are currently "acceptable".

.

rosewood151
May 13, 2012, 09:17 AM
Per ACT235, you can ONLY carry from your place of residence to your place of employment. No sleeping over a friends house, or running an errand. ACT 235 is really restrictive. As long as you are in uniform, you will have a hard time making a case for your CCW instead of your 235. Where is the mall? If you were in or near Philadelphia , your lucky the guards didn't )call the police. (Especially Philadelphia police.

ClickClickD'oh
May 13, 2012, 10:00 AM
If you were in or near Philadelphia , your lucky the guards didn't )call the police. (Especially Philadelphia police.

We've had Philadelphia police detain officers and confiscate their weapons while they were in their cars driving home from the job.

rosewood151
May 13, 2012, 10:09 AM
Yeah Philadelphia police don't really want anyone else to have guns.

Trunk Monkey
May 13, 2012, 02:58 PM
We've had Philadelphia police detain officers and confiscate their weapons while they were in their cars driving home from the job.

Confiscate as in disarm for the duration of the stop or confiscate as in confiscate?

ClickClickD'oh
May 13, 2012, 04:59 PM
Confiscate as in disarm for the duration of the stop or confiscate as in confiscate?

Confiscate as in make our officers go to the police department and claim them the next day.

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