rra polymer frame 1911?


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Ian Johnson
May 10, 2012, 11:15 AM
I know they arent out yet but anybody heard anything about these?http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=559

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Skylerbone
May 10, 2012, 05:41 PM
Heard yes, seen no. They used to make some fine 1911s and I hope someday they will again but in my mind these ain't it.

Buck Kramer
May 10, 2012, 05:46 PM
Sounds like a steel framed Glock :)

p.s. your link is broken.

Skylerbone
May 10, 2012, 08:33 PM
It's a polymer frame not a steel frame thus the thread title.

ApacheCoTodd
May 10, 2012, 08:48 PM
It's a polymer frame not a steel frame thus the thread title.
I guess an emoticon for a joke going over someone's head is needed.

I saw these recently on a mailed catalog and kinda just went.. Hmmm...

Skylerbone
May 10, 2012, 09:14 PM
Guess I don't see the joke. A grown-up's Glock; now that's a joke. Finally a Glock a man can shoot! A Glock for the 20th Century: Forward Thinking at Its Best. A Fisher Price Ten Best Award Winner...

There is no emoticon for point-counterpoint but I guess my dry humor isn't always well received. 8~€

Back to the question at hand, there's no reason it shouldn't work it's essentially a 2011 single-stack if that does it for you. For a weight saving 1911 platform it should be well received once it ships. At the announced MSRP however I suspect many will simply continue carrying what they have be it 1911 or poly whunder gun.

ritepath
May 10, 2012, 10:03 PM
So why does it still weigh in at 32oz?

fatcat4620
May 10, 2012, 10:08 PM
Because it is still not a glock?

ApacheCoTodd
May 10, 2012, 10:29 PM
oops

ApacheCoTodd
May 10, 2012, 10:30 PM
So why does it still weigh in at 32oz?
I seem to remember looking at the photos that it has a lot of the same steel "meat" as any other 1911 for mounting the fire control group.

Skylerbone
May 10, 2012, 11:35 PM
It's 7 oz. lighter than a standard 1911-A1, likely more than a half pound under the weight of one with a beavertail. In other words it splits the difference between a 1911 and a Glock and yes it has a stainless chasis insert.

That gives 1911 users a Govt. size pistol for reliability in a lighter weight package.

Bigkrackers
May 10, 2012, 11:54 PM
...it should be well received once it ships.

I'm not sure if you meant that as a joke or not. I don't see this being well received at all within the 1911 community and who, after all, is this marketed towards? There are better poly hybrid .45acp in a smaller package with 6-8 round capacities than a bastardized 1911. If I want a poly gun, I'll get one. If I want a 1911, I'll get a real one.

Skylerbone
May 11, 2012, 01:00 AM
Perhaps you should call the Larson brothers and tell them to fire their marketing and R&D guys. You may have no personal interest but that does not preclude interest from others (hence the thread). I'm a member of the "1911 Community" who also happens to own a RRA rifle. I'd wager I'm not the only one and I can imagine many RRA owners would love to add a matching handgun. While there's little personal appeal to me what I wrote about the RRA being well received was not part of my regular schtick.

To speed things up perhaps a list of potential market would help:
1. Previous/current RRA 1911 owners.
2. RRA rifle owners.
3. 1911 bargain hunters.
4. Poly owners interested in making the leap to a 1911.
5. 1911 owners who carry concealed and want the benefits of a lightweight without an aluminum feed ramp.

PS, all those "real" 1911s you may want? Are they genuine Govt. issued or just copies? Only issued 1911s are real 1911s and they haven't been manufactured in decades. Yes even the Colts rolling off the line at present are merely consumer models.

cyclopsshooter
May 11, 2012, 01:17 AM
Yes even the Colts rolling off the line at present are merely consumer models.

I'll take the heat treat in my newer Colts over the last GI made guns from 1945..

Bigkrackers
May 11, 2012, 07:30 AM
Yes, and I'm sure Colt thought they had a good idea with the Colt 2000.

Just because a company sinks money into R&D doesn't mean it's a good idea.

So you want a matching set? Does that mean an AR with a Plum Crazy lower and an RRA upper to match your poly 1911?

To each their own I suppose.

I'll be very interested in your review of one when you get it.

gunnutery
May 11, 2012, 07:42 AM
What is the price point?

Skylerbone
May 11, 2012, 08:08 AM
Bigkrackers I see you still can't read straight, here's what I said: While there's little personal appeal to me . Peruse the forum rules while you're at it so you can note that we aren't here for personal attacks.

Cyclops, you want a modern copy? Yeah, me too;-).

G, MSRP as announced at SHOT was $800.

BCCL
May 11, 2012, 08:35 AM
I'll give it a look, back in the 90's I built a few 1911's on some lightweight aluminum frames (I think the name was "Ranger") and really liked the lighter but still full size guns.

460Kodiak
May 11, 2012, 09:52 AM
I own an FNP-45, and am fine with the concept of polymer autoloaders. This however, is an abomination IMO, and has no place in this world. I'm sure someone will buy them, but it won't be me. If you want a light SD gun, there are a lot better options than this.

mesinge2
May 11, 2012, 11:12 AM
It looks like a nice gun but a poly frame, eh.... JMHO but I didn't even like the Aluminum framed Colt I had because I thought it was too light. I know STI has been doing that for years but at least this on this one its played down a bit.

Scratch that, I will probably have to buy one just to add it to my pile of 1911s. I held out from getting an external extractor model 1911 and finally purchased a S&W E-series and now I don't know why I waited. Its a great shooter. I might still get one if they are priced right. With a poly frame it might be cheaper, right?


http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/1911_poly.gif

Skylerbone
May 11, 2012, 11:52 AM
This however, is an abomination IMO, and has no place in this world.

I've heard that in reference to the following 1911 parts:

The beavertail grip safety, the external extractors, extended ejectors, the flat MSH, ambi-thumb safety, extended slide stop, bull barrels, ramped barrels, compensators, FLGRs, shok-buffs, Aftec extractors, dual recoil systems, polymer MSHs, extended magazine wells, ball cuts, Hi-Power cuts, front cocking serrations, French borders, the ILS, Swartz safeties, Series 80 safeties, collet bushings, hex-head screws, 1913 rails, Accu-Rails and 8-round hybrid magazines. Let's not start on what I've read and heard about Glocks!

Shall we consider the personal affront our E-Series 1911s pose to the rest of the 1911 community or leave the nay sayers to their merry pursuits? There is a market for most anything, whether it appeals to you is your bias to live with.

mesinge2
May 11, 2012, 12:00 PM
I own an FNP-45, and am fine with the concept of polymer autoloaders. This however, is an abomination IMO, and has no place in this world. I'm sure someone will buy them, but it won't be me. If you want a light SD gun, there are a lot better options than this.

The only 1911 that is an abomination in my opinion is the one below, and there will even be a buyer for this one. Everyone likes something different. I am not a Glock guy but that doesn't mean that they are junk. To each his own, and rightfully so (within reason ;)).

http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/arsenal-double-barrel-1911.jpg
http://personaldfence.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Double-Barrel-1911-1.jpg

fatcat4620
May 11, 2012, 12:02 PM
While they were fixing the frame did they fix the reliability issues?:evil:

jogar80
May 11, 2012, 12:09 PM
I'd get one, why not.

mesinge2
May 11, 2012, 12:38 PM
I'd get one, why not.
See!

+1 one to you and I hope you get it and post a range report.

Personally, I am terrified to see the pricetag on one. It has to be north of $5,000 (if you were talking about the arsenal double 1911 that is).

CWL
May 11, 2012, 01:53 PM
I'm not liking or dismissing it, but what is the point of this polymer framed M1911? It isn't a new idea. What kind of owner will this be targeted towards?

I already own one, a Wilson Combat KZ45, and I'm back to steel frames. Didn't see any real benefit in the polymer.

power5
May 11, 2012, 01:58 PM
Guess I don't see the joke. A grown-up's Glock; now that's a joke. Finally a Glock a man can shoot! A Glock for the 20th Century: Forward Thinking at Its Best. A Fisher Price Ten Best Award Winner...

There is no emoticon for point-counterpoint but I guess my dry humor isn't always well received. 8~€

Back to the question at hand, there's no reason it shouldn't work it's essentially a 2011 single-stack if that does it for you. For a weight saving 1911 platform it should be well received once it ships. At the announced MSRP however I suspect many will simply continue carrying what they have be it 1911 or poly whunder gun.
The joke is that a poly framed 1911 is the same crazy idea as a steel framed glock. Not sure how hard that was to understand.

I doubt it will sell well at $800+. If they can sell it for the price of the firestorm 1911s or one of the other clones it might sell. $800 is cheap kimber territory.

wow6599
May 11, 2012, 02:04 PM
Sell them for $475 - $500 and they may have something. At $800 dollars I would buy a Series 70 Colt that only weighs 5 oz. more.

Shipwreck
May 11, 2012, 03:03 PM
Well, its the first polymer style 1911 that appears to use regular 1911 grips. Those plastic STI doublestacks don't do that, and neither does the Kimber ones previous sold and made by BUL

JTQ
May 11, 2012, 03:07 PM
I like 1911's. I think it is a good idea. I also think the STI 2011's are a good idea. It's another option for fans. Sure there are a lot of traditionalists in the 1911 community. However, they sell a bunch of 1911's with beavertail grip safeties, firing pin safeties, high visibility sights, aluminum frames, external extractors, etc. RRA had an excellent reputation when they were making 1911's. I think they'll sell a bunch of them.

power5 wrote,
The joke is that a poly framed 1911 is the same crazy idea as a steel framed glock. Not sure how hard that was to understand.
The difference is people buy Glocks for high capacity, light weight, and reliability. The steel frame doesn't add anything to that equation.

Conversely, the 1911 buyer is typically looking for a slim/comfortable grip, and a great trigger. The polymer 1911 from RRA doesn't impact those reasons for buying a 1911 at all. Most 1911 buyers don't buy a 1911 because it weighs a lot, they buy it in spite of the weight. They buy it for other reasons and accept the extra weight because they want the other features the pistol offers. If you can have the same features, with less weight, and no loss in durability, I think you'll have a winner. I'd buy one.

The_Armed_Therapist
May 11, 2012, 03:59 PM
LOL... Just the other day, I posted on Facebook for all of my 1911 friends that I was waiting for a company to make a polymer 1911 that is chambered for .32acp. Obviously, this was blasphemous, but that was my point. Now I find out that we're already half-way there! Do you think they'll make this in .32acp or .25acp? I'd buy 5 of them! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

jogar80
May 11, 2012, 04:35 PM
See!

+1 one to you and I hope you get it and post a range report.

Personally, I am terrified to see the pricetag on one. It has to be north of $5,000 (if you were talking about the arsenal double 1911 that is).

Actually I meant the polymer 1911. My daily carry is a Colt gold cup trophy. I wouldnt mind tryin out a polymer framed one, even if JUST to have it. It would have to be VERY well priced though

Bigkrackers
May 11, 2012, 06:08 PM
I'm a member of the "1911 Community" who also happens to own a RRA rifle. I'd wager I'm not the only one and I can imagine many RRA owners would love to add a matching handgun.

I think that implies an interest regardless of what you wrote one sentence later. Also the rather lengthy reply to my post suggested more than just a passive interest as I was reading it.

Not sure where I made a personal attack so maybe dial down the accusations a bit.

This is an Internet forum and this thread was for people to give an opinion on a topic. I did that and I did it without calling you names or casting dispersions upon your ancestors. (well, unless my comment about the Plum Crazy lower offended you.)

Skylerbone
May 11, 2012, 06:32 PM
Not an interest, merely a response to the question you asked:

I don't see this being well received at all within the 1911 community and who, after all, is this marketed towards?.

If your comments implying my manhood is questionable weren't meant to be offensive then there's no need for apologies. You know what you said and what you meant, I was interpreting the data (just as you did when implying I'm a liar and secretly dreaming of one).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=163560&d=1335626816

The last 1911 I purchased. Too flamboyant for you?

Bigkrackers
May 11, 2012, 06:59 PM
If your comments implying my manhood is questionable weren't meant to be offensive then there's no need for apologies.

Umm....okay. I have no idea what you are referencing. I can assure you that I made no comment in regards to anyone's bits and pieces.

It would seem that things are being taken out of context, misread, or not being received as intended.

I like the 1911 but I'm not digging the vibe you're throwing down. I think I'll just leave this one alone.

power5
May 11, 2012, 08:04 PM
I like 1911's. I think it is a good idea. I also think the STI 2011's are a good idea. It's another option for fans. Sure there are a lot of traditionalists in the 1911 community. However, they sell a bunch of 1911's with beavertail grip safeties, firing pin safeties, high visibility sights, aluminum frames, external extractors, etc. RRA had an excellent reputation when they were making 1911's. I think they'll sell a bunch of them.


The difference is people buy Glocks for high capacity, light weight, and reliability. The steel frame doesn't add anything to that equation.

Conversely, the 1911 buyer is typically looking for a slim/comfortable grip, and a great trigger. The polymer 1911 from RRA doesn't impact those reasons for buying a 1911 at all. Most 1911 buyers don't buy a 1911 because it weighs a lot, they buy it in spite of the weight. They buy it for other reasons and accept the extra weight because they want the other features the pistol offers. If you can have the same features, with less weight, and no loss in durability, I think you'll have a winner. I'd buy one.
When I see questions asking for a gun that is solid the 1911 is almost always on the top of the recommendation list. Its a solid hunk of steel. Thats one of the major draws I see from reading comments. Usually the same thread has comments about not wanting a plastic toy gun.

jon_in_wv
August 31, 2012, 07:00 PM
I'm interested in one. I think it looks great.

smalls
September 1, 2012, 12:29 AM
If they make one in commander length, I might try one.

vba
September 1, 2012, 06:54 AM
I own a couple of original Rock River 1911's, all steel and they are exceptionally well built and accurate pistols.

If these are anything like them I'm in. I have no problem with the polymer frames and as said especially in a Commander length. It's a good idea as it brings the weight down from the typical 2.44 pounds to 2.04 for the government sized frame.

jon_in_wv
September 1, 2012, 09:02 AM
Oooo or a CCO type! That would be cool too.

jim243
September 1, 2012, 10:49 AM
Interesting idea. Not sure how well it will be accepted in the 1911 community. There are a ton of poly 45 ACPs out there, Ruger, Beretta, SA, Kimber, Glock and a bunch I am unaware of. As I see it, it is not that it is poly, but that the round count is still way Toooooooooo low. With the FNH-USA FNP-45 at 15 rounds and even the lowly Stoeger at 10, a 8 round 45 ACP is just silly in my OPINION. (a 6 round 3 inch is even sillier, might as well just carry a 357 Mag revolver).

I am not a 1911 basher, but I think the 100 year old design has seen better days and should just be a piece of history.

Jim

Mine: Too heavy to carry.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_1224.jpg


My Poly 45 ACP, damm good gun, reliable and accurate.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_1220.jpg

smalls
September 1, 2012, 11:20 AM
People don't carry a 1911 because it's aluminum, or steel. They carry it because they shoot it well, and the ergonomics work for them. There's really not a downside to using polymer for the frame.

Yeah, you could shoot a (insert favorite polymer hi cap pistol here), but it's not a 1911, and won't shoot like a 1911.

I'm not saying the 1911 is better than any other gun, but some people just shoot it well, or better than anything else.

Might as well save a little bit of weight, right?

smalls
September 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
I don't see this being well received at all within the 1911 community

Let me fix that for ya:
I don't see this being well received at all within the GUN community.

I've never seen a group of people fear change more than gun owners. The 1911 aficionado's are going to scream bloody murder over the atrocious plastic 1911, and the Glock guys are going to say "LOOK, now they want to be just like us!"

It'll suit some people, and they'll buy it. Everyone else will treat it like the redheaded step child.

jon_in_wv
September 1, 2012, 05:21 PM
I think we should all remember that a lot of the statements above were also made about Philippine made 1911s yet they have proven to be quite popular. As long as this thing works and the price is right I think they will do well. I'm really tempted to get one.

Jon Coppenbarger
September 1, 2012, 05:55 PM
well I ordered 2 of them the first day they were anounced from Rock River so I will enjoy trying one out.
Oh and last time I talked to them (month ago)(old news) is they should be out soon and my hardball 1911 was almost done from them also.

Girodin
September 1, 2012, 10:52 PM
The price point would be the big issue to me, along with the quality of the gun. If its a good gun at an attractive price point it would be worth a look. Poly 1911s are not new. All the ones I'm aware of have not been terribly successful, but they have all been relatively expensive.

fastest45ever
September 1, 2012, 11:54 PM
I agree with the price point being vital. In the current market, nearly everything sells.

I've often wished the 1911 had 10 round magazines, a poly frame, and the combination didn't cost 1500 dollars.

To be a real success they should follow the Glock model, and sell the gun near cost to gain market share, get enough people making magazines and parts so they are cheap.

ugaarguy
September 2, 2012, 12:11 AM
To be a real success they should follow the Glock model, and sell the gun near cost to gain market share, get enough people making magazines and parts so they are cheap.
If I'm reading the internet chatter correctly this a true single stack polymer 1911 frame with steel chassis insert. If it is what it appears to be all standard 1911 parts and mags will work with it.

If the above is true, the price is reasonable, and this thing doesn't have a firing pin safety, I'm very interested. I shoot 1911s better than anything other pistol. Hence, I already have 1911 holsters, mags, and spare parts like recoil springs. If this RRA is a well made, reliable pistol, and the poly frame results in Gov size pistol that weighs the same as my aluminum frame Colt Commander I don't think I'd be the only 1911 aficionado who's interested.

Of course, I still want a polymer frame BHP with beaver tail tang; so I may not be the best person to gauge interest with. :evil:

JTQ
September 2, 2012, 07:14 PM
smalls wrote,
People don't carry a 1911 because it's aluminum, or steel. They carry it because they shoot it well, and the ergonomics work for them. There's really not a downside to using polymer for the frame.

Yeah, you could shoot a (insert favorite polymer hi cap pistol here), but it's not a 1911, and won't shoot like a 1911.

I'm not saying the 1911 is better than any other gun, but some people just shoot it well, or better than anything else.

Might as well save a little bit of weight, right?
I think smalls is right on the money.

The 1911 guys don't dislike the Glock because it is made of polymer or it is light weight. Most dislike it because of the big square grip, especially on the .45 ACP models. You don't have to look very hard on a 1911 forum to find somebody saying, "if only Glock would make a full size single stack in .45ACP, I buy one."

jim243 wrote,
Not sure how well it will be accepted in the 1911 community. There are a ton of poly 45 ACPs out there, Ruger, Beretta, SA, Kimber, Glock and a bunch I am unaware of. As I see it, it is not that it is poly, but that the round count is still way Toooooooooo low. With the FNH-USA FNP-45 at 15 rounds and even the lowly Stoeger at 10, a 8 round 45 ACP is just silly in my OPINION.
But the 1911 guys have already chosen their "low capacity" pistol, mostly because they like the grip, the trigger, and the way the pistol points. The guys that choose the 1911 know their capacity limitation, but they still choose the pistol because the other features outweigh the lower capacity, to them. Those other pistols don't give the 1911 shooter what they want, no matter the capacity, but a polymer 1911 would give them everything they like with lighter weight. I think it is a good plan.

k_dawg
September 2, 2012, 09:10 PM
I shoot the 1911 better in part due to the mass. I prefer steel over aluminum frames for the 10 and .45acp calibers.

We'll have to see how RRA does. So far, the other companies with polymer framed 1911s do not seem to have done particularly well.

So, I am not in their 'intended audience'. But that doesn't mean it is a bad product.

k_dawg
September 2, 2012, 09:31 PM
But the 1911 guys have already chosen their "low capacity" pistol, mostly because they like the grip, the trigger, and the way the pistol points. The guys that choose the 1911 know their capacity limitation, but they still choose the pistol because the other features outweigh the lower capacity, to them. Those other pistols don't give the 1911 shooter what they want, no matter the capacity, but a polymer 1911 would give them everything they like with lighter weight. I think it is a good plan.

Yes. I and most of the others I know who choose to carry a 1911 pick the ability to shoot it well over capacity. I also prefer to CC and not OC.

If I could wear a thigh holster everywhere, THEN I might choose the H&K USP Elite .45 with a Docter sight.

ugaarguy
September 5, 2012, 02:53 AM
So far, the other companies with polymer framed 1911s do not seem to have done particularly well.
The STI / SVI pattern double stacks have done quite well because they became the de facto standard for double stack 1911s, and STI is based in TX, so parts availability is of minimal concern.

The Kimber BP Ten / Charles Daly / BUL pistols didn't have the build quality of the STI / SVI guns, and parts weren't 100% compatible with the STI / SVI pattern. That last bit, combined with the sporadic nature of spare parts importation from Israel, pretty much doomed those pistols here in the US.

The Wilson Combat KZ 45 is a proprietary frame size with a proprietary $40 magazine that can only be had from Wilson. It has its followers, but it's not intended to be a mainstream pistol.

On the other hand, if this RRA takes all standard 1911 parts - especially standard mags (so one could use $12 Metalforms or $20 McCormick Classics to name a couple of my favorites) - I think it could do quite well as a mass market pistol.

smalls
September 5, 2012, 12:24 PM
Not to mention that those are all double stacks. While some people do carry a double stack 1911, I think most people use them for competition. It gives up one of the advantages of the 1911 for carry, the slimness.

Expensive proprietary parts certainly don't help. STI/SVI set the standard for them, and each following company needs to either follow their platform, or make even easier to replace and cheaper parts for their guns to become popular.

EddieNFL
September 5, 2012, 08:17 PM
If I want a poly gun, I'll get one. If I want a 1911, I'll get a real one.

Ditto

Spats McGee
September 7, 2012, 11:56 AM
I like the idea. If I had the funds, I'd consider buying one. I like the 1911, but I wouldn't mind having a lighter one.

jon_in_wv
September 7, 2012, 05:22 PM
I thinks its going to come down to price. If they can undercut the more expensive options while not being too much more expensive than the RIA types I think it will di well.

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