CZ 75 Problem At Range


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razorback2003
May 10, 2012, 12:15 PM
I was shooting yesterday and first had one failure to extract the last empty cartridge. I thought no problem. Loaded another magazine and fired a few rounds and then the gun just locked up. I pulled the trigger and the hammer would not fall and I also cannot engage the safety (no decocker, just safety model). I could get the magazine out with no problem but could not pull the slide back far enough to get the live round out of the chamber. I then carefully pulled the slide stop lever out to see if I could push the slide off the gun. I was able to pull the slide back enough to get the slide stop out. I was unable to push the slide off the frame. I tried to engage the safety and also pull the trigger and everything still locked up.

So after I figured out I could not fix the problem I carefully put the gun in a thumb snap holster to cover the trigger and block the firing pin from the hammer.

What could cause this problem? A broken extractor or spring, trigger spring?

I will be taking this to a gunsmith very soon. It has already been worked on once by a gunsmith in town, then sent to CZ for new extractor springs and extractor worked on, polished chamber. Kind of frustrating to have a problem like this and I can't even unload the gun or put it on safe.

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Walt Sherrill
May 10, 2012, 06:34 PM
That's a new one for me.

Did you still have the magazine OUT when you pulled the slide stop and tried to remove the slide? (It may seem like a dumb question, but you CAN remove the slide stop with the mag in place, but the slide won't come off the frame if the magazine is still in place.)

I don't understand what could keep the slide from moving if the slide stop and magazine have been removed, except a jammed up guide rod or recoil spring -- but that shouldn't have any effect on the hammer, causing it to lock up. Perhaps you've got two UNRELATED problems? (The only times I've encountered such a mysterious problem, the barrel was bulged from a squib load and a second shot, and the slide would only open part way. You generally KNOW when that sort of thing happens, as there things that are very noticeable, like strange sounds, mess in the chamber, are present.)

Similarly, a broken extractor wouldn't lock up the hammer or keep the slide on the frame.

A busted spring in the fire control/sear assembly, in theory, could lock up the hammer, if it busted in a way that prevented the hammer from falling -- but should have no effect on slide movement.

A trip to the gunsmith is clearly in order. Just be sure you didn't have a brain F*RT and reinserted the mag before trying to take the slide off. I've done things like that...

You can't even send it to CZ with a live round in it -- as no SHIPPER will accept gun and ammo in the same package, especially a LOADED (albeit busted) weapon.

.

schmeky
May 10, 2012, 07:26 PM
It has already been worked on once by a gunsmith in town

Things that make you go hhmmmmm. If the extractor retaining pin backed down, this could do it for sure. Extractor pin should be driven out from the bottom towards the top of the slide, and reinstalled from the top.

There is a staking mark on the underside of the slide to keep this from happening. I would take it back to the "gunsmith in town" first.

dleong
May 10, 2012, 09:14 PM
Extractor pin should be driven out from the bottom towards the top of the slide, and reinstalled from the top.

It's the other way round, as the hole for the extractor retaining pin tapers at the top.

(There's a technical note on page 22 of the CZ 40B manual to that effect, and the 40B's slide is mechanically identical to the 75B's.)

the count
May 10, 2012, 09:37 PM
I had a similar case recently. The exact cause I do not even want to get into, but a live round was stuck in the chamber an I could not pull the slide back or anything. Yes, mag was out. What I did in the end was use a dental tool to lift up the extractor to disengage it from the rim, while pulling the slide back. That worked. Rest was easy.

schmeky
May 10, 2012, 11:26 PM
dleong,

Based on my experience, I respectfully disagree.

Walt Sherrill
May 11, 2012, 07:15 AM
Schmeky:

It was my understanding that the opening/channel in the slide is tapered so that the pin can't come out easily through the top. And, I've removed a few, over the years -- but arguably not as many as you -- by driving it downward, through the slide. I've NOT staked the bottom, as I should -- I will in the future.

(A tapered channel for the pin makes sense, as it keeps a loose pin from coming out through the top, where it's likely to get lost; but, if it's loose and can only come out through the bottom, it's less likely to get lost, and generally will keep itself retained.)

Here's what the 40B manual says. It's not addressed in any other CZ materials I have, including an armorer's manual for the pre-B. I added the underlining:

Drift the extractor pin out from above, and drift it in from the inner side of the slide; when the pin installment has been completed, secure it with an indentation.

That explains the staking you mention, in any event.

I went back to the FAQ area on the CZ Forum -- which I haven't visited in a long time -- and looked at what we had posted there: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=14695.0 and it says from the top down, and nobody has ever called me on that -- and that one has been in use since 2006! (I think I consulted with CZ-USA before writing that one.)

That said, all of the parts diagrams show the pin positioned above the slide, and that's generally an indicator of installation direction. So it could be confusing for anyone that is trying to do it.

Note for other readers: I generally bow to Schmeky's superior knowledge and experience, as he clearly knows much more about CZs than I do. I don't know why his experience and mine are different on this particular point.

the count:
Re: the tip about using the dental pick. Very clever solution. I doubt I would have thought of that, but I do have several dental picks. (grin)

Deus Machina
May 11, 2012, 09:49 AM
Is it out of battery at all?
Had a very similar problem with my PCR (no idea on the safety, though) after finding that my reloads that worked in everything else were slightly out of spec for the CZ's short throat, and were jamming on the rifling before letting the slide completely forward.

EDIT: The fix was to shorten the OAL (as rayatphonix states), but to below the minimum in the manual, which I was uneasy about. Changed lead molds instead, to a Lee that had a longer radius and a tiny step from the external portion to the part inside the case, sort of an understated round-nosed semi-wadcutter design. If these will fit in the magazine, they will chamber.

rayatphonix
May 11, 2012, 10:10 AM
I had the same problem Deus had with one particular brand of bullets. In my case I shortened the OAL just a bit and never had another problem.

schmeky
May 11, 2012, 10:15 AM
Walt,

I can't the times I have been wrong and I would not argue with anything in a CZ factory manual. The extractor pins are straight, not tapered. I can't vouch for the extractor pin hole. I do know it would add a degree of difficulty to drive the pin out from the top, pushing it through the bottom, since you have to overcome the often times heavy factory staking. It would also increase the potential for finish damage on the top.

I have removed many extractor pins, and have, thus far, done it "my way" with no complications :)

razorback2003
May 11, 2012, 11:33 AM
Yes, I made sure to take the magazine out of the gun before I tried to take the slide off. The gunsmith was out yesterday, so I'll have to try to catch him today. It is very frustrating because this is the third problem I have had in a year that has required gunsmith attention. I will probably fix it and sell it.

All the problems have been with various factory ammunition. This time I had the problem with Tula Steel cased FMJ 9mm. Never had a problem surprisingly with the cheap tula or wolf ammo but always had problems with Federal, Remington, and Winchester.

Walt Sherrill
May 11, 2012, 11:38 AM
SCHMEKY:

I'll agree that the pins are straight -- it's the hole/channel in which it resides that's supposed to be slightly tapered. But, even if it started tapered, once someone has gotten one out from bottom to top, it's probably no longer tapered as fully as it once was -- if it was. (grin)

And I alway put some masking tape on the top of the slide when I'm driving those pins...

schmeky
May 11, 2012, 04:32 PM
Walt,

I agree. I use tape sometimes too. What works really well for me is I cut an old leather belt into a 3 inch length. I use a buckle hole to introduce the punch through. Sometimes I tape this in place. I have wacked the leather several times, thank goodness it was there:p

To the OP, I, as well as others, I would like to discover what's going on; this is certainly not typical. Did you take your CZ multiple times to the same gunsmith? What were the other problems - they may tie into the current situation.

razorback2003
May 12, 2012, 03:20 PM
The first time i took the gun to a gunsmith in town. He changed out the extractor spring. The next time I sent the gun to CZ and they changed out the extractor springs to Wolf extra power springs, then reshaped the extractor, polished out the feed ramp and chamber. Yesterday, I took the gun to the gunsmith in town and he believed the problem was from steel cased ammo. I was using Tula.

Ash
May 12, 2012, 09:51 PM
By the way, the 40b slide is significantly different from the 75 slide in many ways (not just cosmetic), though the pin/extractor are not.

Walt Sherrill
May 13, 2012, 08:10 AM
By the way, the 40b slide is significantly different from the 75 slide in many ways (not just cosmetic),

Oh, you mean the entire barrel lockup design? Yes. And those subtle differences are why the 40P is a weird gun: they had to modify the P-01 frame to accept the 40B slide. (The Kadet Kit doesn't work properly on a 40B frame, either -- although I've read claims by folks who claimed to have made it work. And, apparently, a P-01 slide won't function on a 40P frame, which looks just like a P-01 frame. Some serious KLUDGE work, there.)

Ash
May 13, 2012, 09:28 AM
It's funny you mention the 40p. I've been hankering for one lately, having sold mine years ago. Just something about being a complete odd ball, I guess.

dleong
May 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
Walt and Schmeky,

I do not know if CZ has changed the extractor pin hole in the slide of their recent production guns to be non-tapered, but in all of my CZ pistols (11, with the newest one bearing an '04 datestamp), the hole "steps" to a slightly smaller diameter toward the top. My first attempt, waaaaay back at the start of the previous decade, to remove that pin toward the top resulted in a somewhat broken pin punch. :eek:

I remove and clean behind the extractor after every range session regardless of the number of rounds fired, and when reinstalling the extractor pin from below, I can definitely feel the pin "bottom out" against that step when the pin reaches flush with the underside of the slide. The step can also definitely be felt with a pin punch run against the inside of the hole, at least on my '04-and-older CZs.

Oddly, I've never had to restake the extractor pins on any of my CZs as the pins have always stayed tightly in their holes.


razorback2003,

Did the most recent visit to the gunsmith fix the problem with your 75B?

Walt Sherrill
May 13, 2012, 11:36 AM
Re: cleaning behind the extractor.

I used to do that, but much less frequently. Over the past 6-7years, I just installed the extra-strength WOLFF extractor springs, and spray that area with break cleaner when I think something is needed. (I've never had an extraction issue after installing the extra-strength springs, though.)

With the newer polycoat finishes, the brake cleaner/Gun Scrubber doesn't seem to harm the finish. But dousing it liberally with CLP and spraying with an air gun would probably work just as well -- and remove all risk of damaging the polycoat finish.

At the present, I only have one CZ, a tuned up 85 Combat (with a Kadet Kit), and a custom AT-84s. Great guns, both of

palooka
May 13, 2012, 09:17 PM
I have had a problem which sound similar with my CZ Shadow. It seemed to occur with one brand of bullet( 124 gr copper clad) which I miked at .357.
The CZ has a very tight chamber

Pilot
May 14, 2012, 10:37 AM
I have had a problem which sound similar with my CZ Shadow. It seemed to occur with one brand of bullet( 124 gr copper clad) which I miked at .357.
The CZ has a very tight chamber

It have read reports that some CZ's have a "short chamber", maybe tight also. I have had trouble with some of my reloads in my 75B that worked fine in my Browning Hi Power. They were 115 grain LSWC's. Some fed fine, some didn't. Next time, I will seat the bullet a bit deeper to see if they cycle reliably. It could also be that the 75B doesn't like the LSWC bullet profile, but I've also read others have used them with no problems.

Deus Machina
May 15, 2012, 06:09 AM
From what I can tell, the throat (IIRC) is cut a little further back or just at a steeper angle than many other guns.

My nearly half-ball-shaped reloads that locked up showed rifling marks partway down the radius.

Walt Sherrill
May 15, 2012, 09:31 AM
I've heard of short chambers, but only remember it being a problem with the compact models. Never heard of it with the full-size models. The barrels are slightly different, besides being shorter -- they have one fewer locking lug on the top.

ns66
May 15, 2012, 10:27 AM
wow, i am planning to get a 75b stainless steel high polished, so far all i have read are good comments and praises of cz, i don't know if i should give it 2nd thought

Walt Sherrill
May 15, 2012, 10:33 AM
If you have the short chamber problem, send the barrel back to CZ, after contacting them, and they'll either fix it or replace the barrel. It is NOT a major problem to resolve.

If it's a used gun, or you don't want to be without it for a while, a local gunsmith could probably fix the problem quickly and relatively cheaply, too.

railroader
May 16, 2012, 09:59 AM
On cz pistols I don't think the problem is short chambers. I think the correct term is the barrel leade. This is the area between the end of the chamber and where the rifling starts. On czs the leade is short so factory ammo usually is fine but certain bullet profiles I load can be a problem. I tend to load my rounds shorter so that the bullet doesn't contact the rifling when chambering a round. If I load the ammo to long the gun won't fully into battery and the slide is hard to retract because the rifling grabs a hold of the bullet.

SwampWolf
May 16, 2012, 09:49 PM
What works really well for me is I cut an old leather belt into a 3 inch length. I use a buckle hole to introduce the punch through. Sometimes I tape this in place. I have wacked the leather several times, thank goodness it was there


Great idea, this!

schmeky
May 16, 2012, 11:24 PM
I think the correct term is the barrel leade

Correct. The chamber length affects the headspace, this MUST be very consistent in any autoloader barrel. The barrel leade, or "free bore" is the distance from the front of the chamber to the rifling/lands.

This is easily corrected with a throating reaming. I have done this many times, as have many gunsmiths.

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