non-firearm options in NY state for self defense?

hey everyone.. im in pennsylvania, but im pretty close to the NY border and do a lot of business there and dont want to deal with what it would take to get a NY state CCW permit, if even possible for an out of state individual...

so... anyway, i was wondering what the best defense option is for me, maybe some insight into their knife laws.. im not a big fan of folders, and if open-carry is legally safer in that state i would probably prefer that since i dont wear much clothing in the summer

so.. what are my options, if i have any?

Not entirely sure of the laws there, I have to visit there in the summer, but if you can do it, fake an injury and get a quality cane. I think you can have a non locking folder though.

so far what ive learned is whats definitely legal, and thats a standard folding pocket knife, and a butterfly knife...

whats definitely not legal are switch blades, gravity knives, double edged knives, and those that look sinister, like push daggers and karambit atleast while concealed, possibly unconcealed as well

what im not sure of are the laws around open carry, if there are any specific, and fixed blades

Where in NY state do you work?

You should read the threads in this forum about canes and chemical sprays.

A knife is no match for a 3' walking cane in most circumstances.

i dont work in new york state, but because the area im at now is so rural, and the closest town with anything more than about 5,000 people is a short drive over the border, so i go there to buy things often, and they tend to have better fishing areas as well...

anyway... daggers, switch blades, ballistic knives, and gravity knives are illegal to possess in any way... so those are definitely out (i dont have any of these anyway, so no big deal)...

push daggers would be impossible to convince a cop or judge isnt a weapon-only type knife, so thats out of the question... karambits would be easier to explain, but still fairly difficult, so... thats iffy

i guess folding pocket knives (butterfly knife included), or a single-edged fixed blade knifes are all OK as long as they can be useful for non-fighting purposes as well, so since i do a lot of fishing, hunting, and general outdoor stuff i could easily make a case for any one of these as a utility knife...

so.. that further concentration does clear some things up, they just dont make ANY mention to open carry at all

owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well

A big dog!
http://img.tapatalk.com/a6f9d352-27a4-db76.jpg

Or this!

Sent from my DROID RAZR

psh, im not taking my dog everywhere she goes.. shes a hound and will follow any new scent she picks up and is about as dangerous as being hit with a pillow

owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well

Nope, they are protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act as medical equipment just like wheel chairs. You can even a cary on cane on a commercial airliner. There have been numberous threads about this including an experiment where a lawyer carried one through 3 different airports twice, comming and going, and no one said anything.

oh.. you meant just a straight up walking cane.... i thought you meant like a cane sword... i dont want to go with a walking cane though.. prefer to keep my hands free...

anyway, heres a piece of the NYS law that confuses me... daggers, dirks, stilettos, razors, or anything knife designed to be used as a weapon and not a tool is only illegal "with the intent to use unlawfully against another".. then later in this page im reading it says "subsequent law PL 265.15(4) dictates that simple possession constitutes presumptive evidence that the possessor intends to use the instrument unlawfully against another. "

that confuses me.. but other than that it seems any single edged knife, folding, butterfly, or fixed blade of any length is legal whether its open or concealed, as long a lawful purpose can be established for the blade...

so that leads me to other questions... since if you flick a folding knife hard enough, you can usually make them open, so a cop could make the case for most folding knives as being gravity knives except for the butterfly knife which has a court-case on the books that rules against it being illegal...

the questions are, can a kabar knife listed as a utility knife on their website and being quite practical and well suited for general utility use be ok to carry in a boot, concealed or otherwise (i wear tall boots)... is it even worth trying to find such a purpose for a karambit, or is that going to be a waste of my time to consider, and is it safe to assume the "presumptive evidence of intent" on daggers make anything double edges out of the question?...

as it stands now im looking at either a kabar in the boot or a butterfly knife in the pocket since it seems a butterfly knife is less likely to give me trouble than a standard folding pocket knife

"owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well"


And just where did you hear that bit of horse hockey, Jason?

It couldn't be any farther from the truth.

carl, probably a good idea to read the entire conversation first

New York, huh?

Well..... feather dusters for one. I think feather dusters are permissible as long as they are constructed from non-allergenic artificial feathers.

And cream puffs are okay too. As long as they are not more than two days old whereupon they become kinda stale and crusty, so much as to be dangerous.

Nerf bats may be allowed as long as you can prove a sporting use for them. They also will go well with your nerf balls - which are the only kind you are permitted to dangle in the nanny state of New York. Anything with more substance would be considered provocative and potentially brandishing.

Man I wish I lived in New York.

:cool:

im glad i dont actually live in new york, and frankly i am getting sick of having to cross the state line for most my shopping, doctors, and other reasons... so im strongly considering moving closer to a difference source of these things... but eeh, not much i can do now....

however, its looking more and more like butterfly knife vs kabar utility knife as my options... would any of you guys feel legally safe carrying either of these with the information stated, and which would you prefer?

Jason,

Do a little reading and you'll find that a reasonable stick and a tad of training will trump a knife. Of course most sticks are more challenging to carry than a knife, but many of us have figured out how to do that comfortably so that paradigm shift isn't too difficult.

That aside, you should realize most LEOs will treat a butterfly knife as a gravity knife in spite of the fact they aren't. You may want to stick with a more common one hand opener.

LEOs can treat it how they want... case would be thrown out anyway since theres a ruling specifically protecting them... however, nothing specifically protects a folding pocket knife... if one could flick it open even if by holding it by the blade then they could say its a gravity knife... so if a cop decides to be that much of a jerk, atleast i have that previous ruling to protect me with the butterfly... and fixed would be legally safer too

however, its looking more and more like butterfly knife vs kabar utility knife as my options...

I don't understand. What's your gripe with folders? They come in too many varieties of lengths, locking mechanisms, blade steels and shapes? They're too convenient? To unobtrusive?

I don't doubt a stick is a better option if you're actually going to get into trouble. But you don't want to lug one around. The best weapon/tool is the one you actually have with you when you need it.

i dont have any grip with folders, its just often cops will try to flick a blade open even if by holding it by the blade to do so so they can call it a gravity knife and try to get you on that charge... they would try the same charge with a butterfly knife, sure, but the difference is a butterfly knife actually has a specific ruling that protects its use, making it legally safer

LEOs can treat it how they want... case would be thrown out anyway since theres a ruling specifically protecting them... however, nothing specifically protects a folding pocket knife... if one could flick it open even if by holding it by the blade then they could say its a gravity knife... so if a cop decides to be that much of a dick, at least I have that previous ruling to protect me with the butterfly... and fixed would be legally safer too

Remember, Jason, Confucius say
Listen carefully, Grasshopper: in matters concerning the Emperor's Guard, it matters less that a thing is righteous, and more that a thing offend the Guard's eye.

So has it always been: you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

More recent scholars have interpreted this to mean, "don't unnecessarily antagonize the law enforcement personnel; they can make you uncomfortable and waste a lot of your time without having to actually prosecute you for anything."

Me, I'm not a big scholar of Oriental philosophy, but I think that rendering has some merit.

well, whats worse... wasting time and taking a ride, or finding myself on probation for choosing the wrong knife?... 5 rides with no persecution is better than just one ride that ends in one, wouldnt you say?

hmm.. what about those tactical gloves with the hardened knuckles?.. i have large hands, so glove shopping is difficult for me, but i could get fingerless gloves... then that would allow me to use my fists in a confrontation without damaging them

i dont want to go with a walking cane though.. prefer to keep my hands free...


I strongly suggest you get some training. A stick in the hand is better than your hands.

From your other suggestions, you seem to be looking for the most outrageous gear possible, and trying to get membership here to back up what you've already decided to do.

Carrying a balisong for defense is a bad idea. I don't care if a court decision says you can. It's still stupid.

Wearing gloves with hard inserts is potentially even stupider, unless you ride motorcycles or bicycles and would be wearing them anyway.

Either take the good advice that offered, or don't. Don't try to make lame excuses for carrying items that are logically unsupportable. Carry them if you insist, just don't waste our time excusing why you're carrying your fantasy weapons.

John

What means of self defense do you use in Pennsylvania?

Seems like that should suffice in rural New York State.

I wouldn't expect a town of 5,000 to exactly be a hotbed of crime and violence.

Without a specific exemption in state law for butterfly knives, which I don't see in NY law nor has anyone here provided, I would keep mine at home and carry a commonly available knife instead (and I LIKE balisongs and have several, at home). There is specific exempting language in some states making it clear that certain types of knives are NOT illegal, but I don't see it in NY so if you could educate me on the specific statute protecting you from individual officer interpretation where it exempts butterfly or balisong knives I would truly appreciate it.

well, whats worse... wasting time and taking a ride, or finding myself on probation for choosing the wrong knife?

How about neither. Staying out of the gray areas where authorities have to decide you're not carrying a gravity knife as opposed to they're making up difficult to defend reasons your standard one hand opener is a gravity knife is something we all have to choose based on whether it's worth the potential problems that the one in a million stop can bring.

Worse, it may not just involve having your knife confiscated and you told to "run along" or "a ride" to talk to a Sergeant at the station and released because your butterfly knife isn't a gravity knife (assuming the Sergeant agrees). When an LEO decides to stop you and search you his attitude may not be that you're just a good guy tripping up on some detail. (http://tgace.com/2012/04/12/ny-knife-law/) He may decide that you're someone that warrants being charged and brought in because his opinion is that you somehow have intent to use it as a weapon when it's the furthest thing from your mind. The knife that you and I think of as a simple balisong may then get lumped in that vague "dangerous" category to help raise the bar for your release. Then it can involve bail and court when an over eager attorney on the DA staff wants to use you as a stepping stone to advancement. NYC ambitions can be encountered well outside the city. I can't imagine that you want to go to the expense and trouble to prove the point of law in court like this guy had to do ON APPEAL (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-supreme-court/1304713.html) when narrowing your options a bit can help avoid those chain of unfortunate events. Case law isn't the same as actual exempting legislation and you can find yourself paying an attorney to cite case law before a judge.

Remember that wanting to do something and it being legal and something being legal and it being prudent are all different things.

Your choice.

All that aside, there are a number of perfectly innocent small fixed blade knives that you could pocket carry that are easily accessible and safe.

Don't rob me just yet, lemme put on these loaded gloves :(.

The cane and the training advice are spot on. I would do that instead of using butterfly knifes and stuff like that.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Also remember that a knife in self-defense only has been reliably shown to do two things: Scare, and kill. That leaves a huge gap in the center on the force continuum. Knives have their place, but are never a complete SD solution by themselves.

Don't forget pepper spray. Yes NY has some restrictions on buying it, but if you live out of state and travel there this doesn't apply unless you want to buy it in NY and not PA. Even then, it just requires that you buy it from approve stores, not get a permit or anything.

hey everyone.. im in pennsylvania, but im pretty close to the NY border and do a lot of business there and dont want to deal with what it would take to get a NY state CCW permit, if even possible for an out of state individual...

The only way you could get a NYS permit is to move to NY. There's no reciprocity with PA or any other state. You can't carry at all in NYS, for ANY reason.

A stick when used properly is almost always non-lethal. Just stay off the head, throat and back of the neck. The prime targets are the opponants hands, forearms and knees. He can't fight without those in good working order even if he is so doped up that he can't feel pain.

NY
Small 3 inch blade lockback ie a Bear and Sons Locking Sodbuster.
A Minmag lite in AA.
A feed store Stock Cane. They are hardwood plain jane and very stout.
A good ink pen all steel cross, or my favorite is the 701 Zebra it is machined out of SS and writes great.

well, a knife can do only two things, scare, and kill.. but like a gun, dont use it unless you have to kill... its only self defense if you have no other choice... i think ill probably end up with a kabar in my boot with my pantleg covering it, thats legal and about the only place i can keep one that wont stick out, or hinder my own movements

this is interesting... batons, stun guns are both illegal in NY state, and pepper spray you need to register meaning a resident can just as easily get a handgun, and anyone can use a knife.... odd, to protect people they make the non-lethal solutions harder to legally implement than they do the lethal ones

Would somebody be kind enough to post a link or photograph depicting the exact type of cane we're talking about? Thank you! :)

what i think im going to do is take the money ive been collecting and find a new state while im still unrestricted in doing so.. no family of my own, no long term career, theres nothing keeping me here any long so i think ill just research a few states, pick one, and leave... someplace coastal with great fresh and saltwater fishing maybe... or back to AZ

"well, a knife can do only two things, scare, and kill.. but like a gun, dont use it unless you have to kill... its only self defense if you have no other choice... i think ill probably end up with a kabar in my boot with my pantleg covering it, thats legal and about the only place i can keep one that wont stick out, or hinder my own movements"


A boot or ankle is the absolutely worst place to carry a weapon outside of a Hollyweird movie. If something does happen on the street, you won't be able to get to your weapon. The bad guys are not going to stand back while you have to bend over or stoop down to retrieve your knife. If you are going to carry a knife, then make it one that you can have in a jacket or pants pocket and be able to slip your hand inconspicuously into the pocket and have your weapon right there in your hand. Fractions of seconds count. Thats why a cane or steel pen right there in your hand to start with is a nice thing. Don't pull a weapon to scare, they won't be impressed.
Carl.

Farm supply store stockyard canes, as used in showing livestock - these from http://ranchers.net/kerndt/caneflag.htm but widely available both on the web and in farm/ranch supply stores.

On the left in the picture below is a hardwood stock sorting pole, sorting poles are also offered in fiberglass. There are three typical crook-top hardwood canes on the right.

http://ranchers.net/kerndt/DSC56472big.jpg

a knife can do only two things, scare, and kill

Nope

BTW, you'll probably find the knife you've chose to cause problems for you carried in your boot. The guard is large enough to rub on the side of your calf. If it does, you'll find another knife to carry soon enough. Also, if you're stopped an searched by the cops you're probably going to have a difficult time convincing them that you're carrying a 7" combat knife as anything other than a dangerous weapon.

Thank you, Fred! :)

well mostly what i walk around in are regular pants, a t-shirt, and my boots which are about mid-calf height, i wear them because i do a lot of outdoor stuff such as fishing where i end up stepping in deep mud and other things i dont want to get inside a shoe... so in a boot and under a pantleg is about the only place i could place a fixed blade that wouldnt be seen... but if theres legal issues when that, then obviously id look for another solution

Boot knives were typically flat with minimal guard for a reason.

Ever tried to recover something out of your boot in a high stress situation such as a mugging? A stick in your hand beats a knife in your boot, or pocket every time.

But he says he's not carrying it with the intent to use it on anyone so it won't matter if he carries it concealed in his boot with his pants over it. He obviously can't be meaning to carry it for defensive purposes since he'll never be able to get to it in time to use. He just wants a 7" KaBar combat knife as a EDC.:rolleyes:

Jason, cut the Rambo theme and settle on a practical compact 3-4" fixed blade that you can use as a tool in your hunting/fishing/hiking activities and forget all the goofy stuff.

One problem with a cane is that if a mugger sees you using one he will likely think your are elderly or disabled and an easy target. So the cane will possibly increase the likelihood you will be attacked.

"One problem with a cane is that if a mugger sees you using one he will likely think your are elderly or disabled and an easy target. So the cane will possibly increase the likelihood you will be attacked."

That's fine with me, let him make the mistake.

Are you at all familiar with the operation of the Q-ships? These were harmless looking old steamers that looked like easy pickings to a U-boat. So easy in fact, the U-boat was loathe to waste a torpedo on it, preferring to surface and sink it with the deck gun instead. Big mistake. The run down looking tramp steamer was in fact a heavily armed warship in disguise, and when the U-boat came to the surface to shell the steamer, it got blown out of the water. The false cargo crates on deck would drop away and some very potent artillery would reveal itself, and that was the last sight the crew of the U-boat would have.

So when that inner city hoodie comes real close and tells you to give it up, close enough that you can spit in his eye, you bring that stick up sharply right between his legs into his cajones and make sure he can't multiply. When he gets that close, you just slide your hand down the shaft under the grip a coupe inches and snap up into the target area. Works like a charm. Yes, its a dirty underhanded move, but it really works. Doubles them right over and as they go down, you can gee them a nice blow across the back to the head to finish the matter.

I don't believe street encounters call for the Marquess of Queensberry rules. In fact, I don't believe in the Marquess of Queensberry at all in life. I like it when they under estimate me, and get in real close.

Carl.

Funny how people make assumptions about what some low life might think about someone with a cane, especially when there's nothing to base the assumption on.

It may be reasonable to wonder whether a low life would see the cane as marking you as an easy target, but it is far from reasonable to leap beyond that.

The best defense would be the preparation you can (and will) put in your head, and the training you can put in your body. If the idea is self defense, mental preparation and the will to act is first and foremost. Take defense classes of some sort. MMA, Tai Chi, Kenpo, or whatever defense/mental strengthening will help you grow into someone responsible and capable. Physical preparation is (or at least should be) part of that.

As for tools, you have to look at motivation, rather than selection. Many people come here looking for one of three things:

1) The lastest and greatest end-all be-all of zombie slaying machinations with which to slay the coming Army of Darkness. I usually suggest going to the fantasy section of a BudK catalog. They have some cheap head choppers.

2) The latest and greatest Green Seal Foreign Legion Beret Mossad inspired Tactikool pocket launched MIRV anti-personnel device that'll make the buddies drool with envy.

3) (Hopefully the largest group) People who have had or realized a change in situation where they feel a need to learn more from others that are a little more "in the know" than some of the populace. If this is the group the OP belongs to, please feel free to listen and take what you think applies, but don't discard any of what you hear, just file it away for future possible enlightenment. There's a VAST wealth of knowledge here. I know, I've picked up some truly valuable nuggets in my time here.

One STRONG suggestion I'd give, is that if more than one person on here actively discourages a practice, there's probably a valid reason for it. Some here are LEO or similarly experienced personnel, others have simply had a lot of experience with them.

Now, on to my two cents for protection: I carry a very thick and heavy pen, it can be and has been used as a short staff (kubotan) with decisive results. I have a back that occasionally acts up, so I often carry a cane. It's light, it's fast, it's tough, and if someone (other than maybe George Foreman) thought of me as a victim, they'd soon learn two things: Don't assume, and learn to apologize quickly before that pain becomes permanent.

Without a specific exemption in state law for butterfly knives, which I don't see in NY law nor has anyone here provided, I would keep mine at home and carry a commonly available knife instead (and I LIKE balisongs and have several, at home). There is specific exempting language in some states making it clear that certain types of knives are NOT illegal, but I don't see it in NY so if you could educate me on the specific statute protecting you from individual officer interpretation where it exempts butterfly or balisong knives I would truly appreciate it.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-supreme-court/1304713.html

NY law expressly forbids: Switchblades*, Gravity knives, Ballistic knifes (flying blades), double edged daggers, and "knuckle knives"... think 1917 trench knives as an example. The link I posted above is to the case that determines that butterfly knives are not ballistic knives and are therefore legal.


*Switchblades have a curious loophole in NY law, where one can use and possess a switchblade with a valid fishing, hunting, or trapping knife, but I don't know of any company that will ship them to NY for civilians... so it's probably a moot point.

pepper spray you need to register meaning a resident can just as easily get a handgun

Not correct. There's a piece of paper you fill out to buy pepper spray in NY. You then pay for it and walk out the door... no "registration" like an amendment to a pistol permit at all.

Farm supply store stockyard canes, as used in showing livestock - these from http://ranchers.net/kerndt/caneflag.htm but widely available both on the web and in farm/ranch supply stores.

On the left in the picture below is a hardwood stock sorting pole, sorting poles are also offered in fiberglass. There are three typical crook-top hardwood canes on the right.

http://ranchers.net/kerndt/DSC56472big.jpg
The second one from the Right is about 36 inchs long and will with some adjustments fit 90% of US men.
They are an inch to an inch and a half around.

Not correct. There's a piece of paper you fill out to buy pepper spray in NY. You then pay for it and walk out the door... no "registration" like an amendment to a pistol permit at all.

Not only that, the OP lives in PA and just happens to travel into NY sometimes. He doesn't have to do anything special to get or carry it at all, even if he takes it into NY. NY only regulates sale and purchase, not ownership and carry.

Case law is not the same as exempting/excepting legislation. It strengthens an argument against, but does not provide the assurance of legislation.

The difference is very important when facing an LEO or DA who is deciding your immediate future.

HSO-- broadly I would agree, but in NY they get very specific about laws. If it's not expressly forbidden, it's legal. A cop may harass someone carrying a knife they don't "like" but the individual would get the ticket thrown out and get the knife back.

The LEO you deal with isn't likely to know or care about case law at this level. He's likely to either "informally" confiscate your knife or he may drag you in on a dangerous weapons charge. After you've posted bail and gotten an attorney to point out the case law precedent to the DA the charges will be dropped and you'll pay the attorney for the time instead of facing court. Far too expensive a proposition to risk.

One problem with a cane is that if a mugger sees you using one he will likely think your are elderly or disabled and an easy target. So the cane will possibly increase the likelihood you will be attacked.
Let them try and see what happens.

I used to lice in NYS and Weapon laws are strict, and they are even tougher since I have left there. If the blade of a knife exceeds the palm of your hand depending on the officer you can be arrested, now many people in ny carry a buck knife in a case on thier belt, make sure it is highly visable. or there is the possibility that you can get a taser
the civilian model which allows you to defend your self after you use it and if you actually had to drop the taser to flee the area for safety, the company will replace it, again check with local law enforcement to see if it is legal for you to carry and the requirements. I hope this Helps,,,,Doc

I used to lice in NYS and Weapon laws are strict, and they are even tougher since I have left there. If the blade of a knife exceeds the palm of your hand depending on the officer you can be arrested, now many people in ny carry a buck knife in a case on thier belt, make sure it is highly visable. or there is the possibility that you can get a taser
the civilian model which allows you to defend your self after you use it and if you actually had to drop the taser to flee the area for safety, the company will replace it, again check with local law enforcement to see if it is legal for you to carry and the requirements. I hope this Helps,,,,Doc

Rubbish. There's no such laws regarding either length or concealment of knives. NYC has a 4 inch blade limit, the rest of the state has no limit. Please know the facts before you spout off.

DcHoll,

That "palm of the hand" idea and the slightly less silly "length of the badge" rules of thumb are based on the impression that the palm of the hand or length of the badge is 4" so an officer that doesn't carry an accurate scale can have an idea if the blade is longer than the legal 4" length. It isn't law, but it is a quick and dirty way for an LEO to get a quick idea whether they need to whip out a tape measure.

But again, outside of NYC, there's no length limit in NYS... palm, 4 inches, or otherwise. There's no need for a tape measure when there's no limit on blade length.