what's difference between 1911 and others?


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ns66
May 11, 2012, 08:50 AM
what's difference between 1911 and others like CZ 75?
why 1911 all so expensive

thanks

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JTQ
May 11, 2012, 09:12 AM
why 1911 all so expensive
It usually depends on where they are made and what they are made of.

Since most 1911's are made in the US and out of steel, they will cost more than pistols made in other countries, with lower labor costs, and out of polymer, which is a less expensive material. Comparing, for instance, a Croatian made XD 45 Tactical selling for $550 vs a Colt 1991 selling for $850, most of the difference is materials and labor. An additional cost savings is also found in modern designs that are easier to produce and assemble rather than the fitment required in a 1911.

Conversely, you can get brand new 1911's from the Philippines in the $400-$500 range, which is less than a new CZ75, and often new Glock's.

Check the price of new S&W N/L-Frame revolvers which are also steel guns made in the US, and about the same size as a 1911. They are comparable in cost. For autos, I have a Colt 1911 and S&W 4506 both bought new in the same era. They are both 8 round, steel framed, auto loaders. When new, they cost roughly the same.

brnmuenchow
May 11, 2012, 09:17 AM
I do not have any experience with the CZ-75, as for the difference between a "Std." 1911 and "others" will be based on the mftr. specs (building techniques and materials.)
Ex. Comparing a std. model 1911 made by for example Colt or Springfield with fixed sights and all std. 1911 specs... hold it up next to a "Match Grade" 1911 from STI, Wilsons, Colt, Kimber, etc...etc... you will see and feel a difference.

ns66
May 11, 2012, 09:17 AM
is there design/mechanical difference that makes a 1911 1911?

Sport45
May 11, 2012, 09:41 AM
There are many differences. One thing that strikes me as a very good feature on my 1911's is its non-pivoting trigger.

Have you ever seen a 1911 and another pistol side-by-side?

JTQ
May 11, 2012, 09:46 AM
is there design/mechanical difference that makes a 1911 1911?
Yes.

Here is STI's animation of how a 1911 works.

http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

The late Mr. Camp was both a 1911 and CZ fan, along with his admiration of the Browning Hi-Power. His site is a good source of information on these pistols.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/

ns66
May 11, 2012, 10:27 AM
no i am not familar with 1911 or cz 75, i just wonder if there are significant design differences between the two, they both sound similar to me the way they work, as compared to glock which is striker fired (and polymer)

Deus Machina
May 11, 2012, 10:39 AM
They work on the same principle, but there are design differences.
It's like the difference between a Glock and a Walther, to oversimplify it.

ATLDave
May 11, 2012, 10:42 AM
The CZ is fundamentally derived from the Browning design, but so are other tilting-barrel, locked-breech, delayed-blowback pistols. The 1911 was designed over a century ago, so no though was given to how to make the design easy to manufacture using modern techniques. Most modern designs, including Glocks, are much easier to make. They can therefore be made very well and comparatively cheaply. 1911's just require more hand-fitting, as I understand it.

ldhulk
May 11, 2012, 11:39 AM
One of the things that makes the 1911 so popular is all the history behind it. Like the Colt Peacemaker, it is a uniquely American design, served in several wars, and recalls the "good old days." Many gun buyers are looking for ambience more than utility-few of us will ever be in a gun fight-this also drives the sale of vintage S&W models and Winchester reproductions like the model 95 or 71. Also, for some reason, the 1911 just seems to fit a lot of people and shoot better than any other pistol.

Frank Ettin
May 11, 2012, 01:08 PM
...no i am not familar with 1911 or cz 75, i just wonder if there are significant design differences between the two, they both sound similar to me the way they work,..Yes, they are similar. But "similar" does not mean "the same as."

In many ways a pick-up truck is similar to an SUV. In many ways a diesel engine is similar to a gasoline engine, is similar to an engine running on LPG. The way a minivan works is similar to the way a Formula 1 car works. But "similar" doesn't mean "the same as."

Some of the differences:

On a CZ75, the frame rails are on the inside of the frame and the slide runs on the inside of the frame. On a 1911, the frame rails are on the outside and the slide runs on the outside of the frame.


On a CZ75, the barrel is dropped and unlocked at the start of the recoil cycle by a cam on the barrel bearing on the slide stop pin. On the 1911, the barrel is dropped and unlocked by a link that pivots on the slide stop pin.


A CZ75 does not have a grip safety. A 1911 does.


A CZ75 was designed to allow cocking the hammer with the trigger (i. e., what is commonly referred to as a double action/single action fire control mechanism) and uses a pivoting trigger. The 1911 was designed to be single action only and uses a trigger that does not pivot.

As far as cost, the 1911 has become a very popular design. So popular that it is made by many different companies at many different price points. It's possible to buy a serviceable 1911 for less than a CZ75. It's also possible to pay many thousands of dollars for a finely tuned, hand fitted 1911.

rswartsell
May 11, 2012, 07:57 PM
Now that was a pretty good job of answering the OP's question by Frank Ettin.

Answering on another level, some things that people who love the 1911 like are:

That non pivoting trigger can produce one of the best (most controllable, aiding accuracy and follow up shots) trigger experiences of any handgun. They are somewhat famous for this.

Accuracy and reliability have at times been a hallmark of 1911 pistols, but with so many producers using so many different production methods with so many different materials, they now run the gamut on both scores from horrible to superb.

Advocates of the "CZ 75" design for simplicity (really the WWII vintage Walther P-38 design) like:

The DA/SA firing control mechanism allowing an uncocked pistol with a round in the chamber to be fired by simply pulling (a rather long first pull) the trigger.

If the "wonder nines" are included in the CZ category (the origin really belonging to the Browning Hi-Power) the increased ammunition capacity, nowadays up to 21 rounds over the original 1911 capacity of 7, - 8 with just a magazine change.

bluethunder1962
May 11, 2012, 08:13 PM
It is like everything in life. You get what you pay for. If you want to have fun shooting you have to pay for it. If you get a cheap gun you will not enjoy it. You don't have to pay top dollar but you do need to pay.

SlamFire1
May 11, 2012, 08:27 PM
The M1911 is an expensive design to make.

It was designed in a period when manufacturing costs were not an issue of consideration.

You see in post WWII designs a real emphasis on lowering manufacturing costs but the effort stagnated by the 70's.

Glock really gave the firearms industry a kick in the 80's with his polymer designs.

Modern CNC machines, powdered metal technology, have greatly reduced per unit cost for M1911's, but the firearm is still a complicated item to make.

Tcruse
May 11, 2012, 10:44 PM
It is like everything in life. You get what you pay for. If you want to have fun shooting you have to pay for it. If you get a cheap gun you will not enjoy it. You don't have to pay top dollar but you do need to pay.
A couple of observations, the price of the gun is over shadowed by the cost of ammo if you practice regularly. The 1911 is a gun that you can brag about and show off to both non-gun people and gun people. The finish and look add much to the cost. Also the 1911 to be "usable" needs to have the close fit on the parts. For example if you 10 1911 guns apart and put all of the parts in a basket and then re-assembled them picking parts at random you would probably not get 10 good working guns. Do the same exercise with 10 Glock 17s and you will get 10 working Glocks.

ns66
May 12, 2012, 06:33 AM
thanks everyone especially frank, that answered my question

on a side note, anyone care to tell me similar difference of M9 vs 1911?

JTQ
May 12, 2012, 01:21 PM
Take a look at this article in Mr. Camp's site I linked before on the Taurus PT92.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/TaurusPT92.htm

The Taurus PT92 is very similar to the M9. Mr. Camp has some excellent pictures of the PT92 disassembled.

coalman
May 12, 2012, 02:48 PM
Give the CZ time; price is going up. But, the CZ is a poor comparison because there are $400 CZs and $1500 CZs, same with the 1911. You pay for fit, finish and quality of parts. Craftmanship costs money. Name brand, too. Demand can increase or decrease cost, same with supply. A metal frame requires more cost than a plastic one. Using more parts costs more than using fewer parts generally. Is the cheaper KIA as good as a Toyota? Taurus vs. Glock? Reliability reports say no. Resale value says no. In a 1911, most of the time, you get what you pay for. Even if you have to overpay for it.

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