[mwsenoj]

I am playing with a new bullet in my 223, the Berger 75gr VLD. I am doing the seating test as per the Berger site and am not sure what to make of my shots. The picture shows my target that was shot in 80* - 90* head on gusty 15mph winds. This group was the one that had the least vertical dispersion, but the horizontal spread seems pretty high. What do you think? Keep trying load dev or does this look like a keeper in calmer conditions?


More info: 204 yds, 1in9" 20"bbl Rem SPS Tactical, alum bedded, properly torqued

I guess I could give the reload data... Berger 75gr VLD, virgin Lapua 223 brass (no case prep) 24.5 gr Varget, COL for that group was 2.380" +/- .003"

I found those bullets require ~2.460" to contact the lands. I did the test in .040" increments from 2.460" to 2.420" to 2.380" to 2.340". The other groups started out with significant vertical dispersion (maybe 2 or 3") and then down to what you see here in the next to shortest COL. My loads go from tight to compressed when I used the shorter COLs.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/jones3420012001/HorizontaldispTargetVarg223-1.jpg

[BluEyes]

More info please? Range to target? Shot off bench, prone, what?

I'd probably go back on a calmer day with five rounds.

[briansmithwins]

Three round groups are close to useless for determining the real group size of a rifle and ammo.

BSW

[browningguy]

Three round groups are close to useless for determining the real group size of a rifle and ammo.

I disagree pretty strongly with that statement, although it is repeated all the time that doesn't make it correct. For working up loads a lot of very good shooters will run small groups of multiple loads looking for minimum vertical dispersion to find an initial load to work with. In fact many of the top long range shooters in the world use group sizes of 1, called a ladder test, to get to the load they want to develop quickly.

In the case of the load shown however I would really question that one due to the extreme horizontal dispersion. Normally when I am working up a load like that I am shooting from a bench at 100-300 yards, using a front rest and rear bags. With the small vertical seperation and assuming minimal cross wind component (from your description)I would expect the horizontal to be somewhere in the 1" (100 yards) or less range. As you know the Berger VLD's are often extremely sensitive to seating depth, and I believe neck tension as well. They can't be loaded as casually as you would a SMK or other non-VLD bullet.

Have a look at http://www.6mmbr.com and look at some of the reloading sections, much more info available there from experienced long range shooters.

[wingman]

What is the barrel twist.?

[taliv]

i'm not a fan of 3 round groups at all, but there's no point in starting that debate here. if your 3 round group is over 2 inches, it's not like your 5 round group is suddenly going to shrink to 1/2 moa

assuming that was shot at 100 yrds from a bench, my guess is the problem isn't your load, but your position on the bench isn't supporting the rifle horizontally very well.

[mwsenoj]

Sorry... atlas bipod, 204 yds, 1in9" 20"bbl Rem SPS Tactical, alum bedded, properly torqued

Any more pertinent info I can give?

[mwsenoj]

I guess I could give the reload data... Berger 75gr VLD, virgin Lapua 223 brass (no case prep) 24.5 gr Varget, COL for that group was 2.380" +/- .003"

I found those bullets require ~2.460" to contact the lands. I did the test in .040" increments from 2.460" to 2.420" to 2.380" to 2.340". The other groups started out with significant vertical dispersion (maybe 2 or 3") and then down to what you see here in the next to shortest COL. My loads go from tight to compressed when I used the shorter COLs.

And that, I think, is all I know :)

[mwsenoj]

And please don't preach against my 3 rd groups. That is not what I was sling about in this post.

[jmr40]

What type of rifle are you using. I'd not be at all pleased with that type of accuracy with any of my rifles, but with some rifles that is acceptable.

One 3 shot group may not tell much, but a series of 3 shot groups does. Five consecutive 3 shot groups tell me more than I need to know about my rifles performance than three consecutive 5 shot groups. Long strings of 5 or more shots tell you how well the barrel disappates heat, not much about how accurate your rifle shoots. Where the 1st shot hits from a cold bore is the only one that counts. In fact lately I've been firing 1 shot groups at different targets and letting the barrel completely cool between shots. That is what I need to know.

[mwsenoj]

What type of rifle are you using. I'd not be at all pleased with that type of accuracy with any of my rifles, but with some rifles that is acceptable.

Sorry... atlas bipod, 204 yds, 1in9" 20"bbl Rem SPS Tactical, alum bedded, properly torqued

You must have missed that :D

[jmr40]

Yea, only read the 1st post carefully and skimmed the others. At 204 yards that is a decent group with potential to be better. I'd shoot some more and see what happens.

[rskent]

If I had a rifle with a 20” 1 in 9 barrel, shooting at 200, I think I would be looking real hard at 69 grain Match Kings.
Just a thought.
Steve

[taliv]

i think it would be very unusual for anything about a load to cause horizontal stringing.

it is much more likely the shooter. pushing on the side of the trigger instead of pulling it straight back, pulse from the bench, and especially poor support on the rear bag are much more likely culprits

[mwsenoj]

Rskent, check out my other thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=648210

Taliv, you are probably spot on. I am still pretty new at this. With that in mind, would you say that my load is worth pursuing?

[TurtlePhish]

With that in mind, would you say that my load is worth pursuing?

Keep at it. Try it again. The vertical dispersion is minimal. If you fix the problem, whatever it may be, you could end up with a great load.

[jerkface11]

3, 5, or 10 rounds ONE group won't tell you anything about a load.

[BluEyes]

Any more pertinent info I can give?

What distance are you shooting at?

[mwsenoj]

Updated info in original post. 204 yards tho.

[Claude Clay]

the gun is a machine and i have found that testing at distance i'll load 7; fire the 1st off the target, 5 on and the 7th don't matter.

keep your trigger finger on the face or the trigger during reset may help. is your trigger a single or a 2-stage?
your gun rest must be consistant; front rest and rear sand bag that your off hand squeezes to make the up/down adjustment ( that you seem to have done fine with)
the suggestion for 69gr is a good one for 1/9 twist. 75gr for 1/7 i use for 500 yards.

everything else has been said, good luck.

[Robert101]

With my shooting ability I need 5 shots and multiple sets to establish a good understanding of that loaded round. Three shots in my opinion are not adequate. Shoot some more and look at three sets of groups - that will tell a better tale of the cartridge and rifle combo. Your group is a good start. It looks to be about 2.5" at 200 yards. On my last visit to the desert I shot 5 shoots within 2.25" from bipod prone (shoulder rear support) with my LR308. I'm new to shooting these distances so I was pleased. Next visit I plan to stretch that out to about 400 yards. Any way, I hope this gives you my limited perspective.

[TonyAngel]

You mentioned that you are shooting off of a bipod. Are you sure that you are using the bipod correctly?

It seems to me that you are right in the MOA neighborhood and are doing pretty well. It seems that perhaps just tweaking your form may cure your woes.

Are you getting straight behind the rifle when you shoot from the bipod. Are you finding your natural point of aim? Are you loading the legs of the bipod before you shoot? What are you using as a rear rest?

[mwsenoj]

Tony,

I think that I am using the bipod consistently but I am not quite sure. I am getting straight behind and I am using a cheapo rear sand bag with the proper hand technique.

[TonyAngel]

mwsenoj,

Maybe all you need is a bit more trigger time. When I shoot using a rest, I use a Protektor rear bag. When shooting from a bipod for tacitical type shooting I use a squeeze bag. Really, a section of petite sized panyhose doubled over and filled with tumbling media.

Keep at it. There's really no reason that you should be disappointed with the results thus far.