Tin Foil Hat Topic: Buying "under the table".


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Orion8472
May 13, 2012, 11:30 AM
I've heard some people talking about the need to buy guns "under the table" . . . in case the government starts confiscation measures, . . .and if so, you would have guns that "they" don't know about.

So, whether or not you believe any of this, . . . is there logic to it? Let's discuss the topic logically. If you have ever purchased a gun using form 4473, the government will know you HAVE purchased in the past and will probably pay you a visit expecting to find what records state you should have in your possession.

This is why some would say, "buy under the table and 'they' won't know about it". There is truth to that, . . . but since there isn't a requirement to fill out 4473 for private sales, . . . there really ISN'T a way that "they" know what you CURRENTLY have in your possession. Because of the economic downturn, . . . how many of you have sold a gun to another individual? It isn't required [by law] to obtain a receipt for such transactions, so considering all of this, . . . how logical IS the statement "buy under the table"? Does it still have merit?

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medalguy
May 13, 2012, 11:36 AM
I don't think it has any merit at all. If the day ever comes when "they" come around to collect our firearms, they will already have put intoplace some means of requiring complete registration of all firearms with enough of a penalty to insure we all have registered all of the guns in our possession. Any firearms acquired through non-public means will be disclosed at that time, regardless of method of acquisition.

OK, I'm putting my tinfoil hat back on now, then I'm going to loook in today's newspaper for any good deals through private FTF sales. :scrutiny:

loose noose
May 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
In the event of completely disregarding the 2nd Amendment, I'm sure they would take care of the remainder of the Constitution also: Which also states the "unreasonable search and seizure" clause.:mad:

Rail Driver
May 13, 2012, 11:53 AM
In the event of completely disregarding the 2nd Amendment, I'm sure they would take care of the remainder of the Constitution also: Which also states the "unreasonable search and seizure" clause.:mad:
The "need" to buy unpapered guns stems primarily from the media's depiction of "the way things are" and how on every TV show and movie they talk about tracing a gun's "registration" back to so and so. It's misinformation, plain and simple. While I personally prefer to buy guns face to face, I've bought more than my fair share from shops and individuals in other states necessitating a 4473, so at this point it's "too late" or not an issue depending on how you look at it - I'm also a CWL holder, so it REALLY doesn't matter because not only do "THEY" know I have guns, "THEY" also licensed me to carry one.

In any case, and in response to loose noose, they're already working on it - NDAA, CISPA (pending, but with heavy support from both parties) and other less known legislation are steadily whittling away our constitutionally protected rights - It's been happening for decades, just not at the extremely increased rate of the past 3 years.

Martel
May 13, 2012, 11:54 AM
I think before they try to take away the 2nd amendment completely they will require gun registration. So we have to be careful to elect people that would never go along with that... and if it ever does happen, well, there's the writing on the wall. I believe similar situations happened in Australia and the UK... restrictions, more restrictions, complete registration, then confiscation. And there are only...half a million "illegal" guns in the UK, so you can guess how many gun owners buried them in the backyard rather than give them up.

dogmush
May 13, 2012, 11:58 AM
Discussing logically:

I don't worry about buying on or off a 4473, I just look for a good deal. I don't think it matters. Here's why: (Note, I don't think this is actually, reasonably going to happen. We're deep in fiction territory here)

If the US government start's coming door to door for weapons, crossed checked against 4473's our country is dead. That's the point that we need to take up those weapons and remove that government. There's no point in turning most weapons over to the troops, and saving a hold out. What, at that point, are you saving it for? There's someone on here's sig line that says, in response (I assume) to the omnipresent boating accident and questions like this: If it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them. And they're right. At the hypothetical you're proposing, don't hide one or two guns, start shooting. The revolution is here at that point. So given all that, what do I care if the troops that knock on my door have a list of what's about to shoot at them?

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

The obvious post script to this is that we have a responsibility as citizens to be involved in our government and make sure it never comes to this. If it goes that far, we've all failed, tragically.

Tomcat47
May 13, 2012, 11:59 AM
Raildriver beat me to it.......

I have known people that have never and will not buy one with paperwork. :scrutiny:

My reply to them each time is...if you think that IF it gets bad and gun rights are lost you will be left out of confiscation efforts, just because you never had paperwork...you are dreaming!

And what good is a hidden or buried firearm....lol

we need an emotiocon with a "Tin Foil Hat"

And +10 to Dogmush! Well stated!

22-rimfire
May 13, 2012, 12:00 PM
Many say this about buying from individuals rather than through FFL dealers. Personally I am not particularly concerned about confiscation. If such a thing happened and it is legal to sell face to face in your state, you simply say you sold it, lost it, or it was stolen. BUT, I do record for my own records what firearms were purchased from individuals.

One thing to remember, if confiscation did in fact happen, it would be voluntary at first. There are insufficient law enforcement to do door to door searches and I doubt many would be willing to do it.

Guns move around a lot from owner to owner.

HGUNHNTR
May 13, 2012, 12:08 PM
^ True dat. If you believe that purchasing sans paper is a benefit, the same can be said for the fact that a seller isn't required to keep paperwork. Every gun I have ever purchased via 4473 has been sold privately and is no longer in my modest collection.

Carl N. Brown
May 13, 2012, 12:14 PM
Government data from surveys such as NSPOF mean that the gov't knows that people buy sell and trade guns privately; ATF recognizes the right of an owner to sell, swap or trade a used gun as long as there is no reason to believe the recepient is a prohibited person. I seriously doubt if ATF would expect me today to produce that .308 rifle I bought twenty four years ago on a 4473.

Sales records are not registration, but to get national registration, there are hurdles.
Anyone not pay attention to what happened with the Canadian long gun registry?
After seventeen years it was repealled.
During those 17 years there was probably 50% non compliance rate among Canadian long gun owners. Protests with public burning of registration forms.
At a cost of 2.7 billion dollars, the registry produced corrobating evidence in four cases where the suspect, motive and opportunity were established evidence; not really an aid in conviction, and no crimes prevented or solved as a result of the registry.

A national gun registry in the US would be a very hard sell. In his arguments against Heller 08 Justice Breyer seemed hung up on supposed benefits of gun control. I think the history of the Canadian long gun registry shows that the costs of national gun registration are very, very high, and the benefits are practically non-existent (unless you are a politically-connected computer system vendor).

Rembrandt
May 13, 2012, 12:21 PM
The "paperwork trail" has inherent problems that make it a short term feel good measure......after the firearm goes to the next generation whatever paperwork there was is worthless.

M2 Carbine
May 13, 2012, 12:29 PM
I consider it a good day anytime I end a paper trail.

SpentCasing
May 13, 2012, 12:35 PM
How did the post-Katrina confiscations go down? Were old 4473 forms checked and houses were searched? Did they go door to door "asking"? Or did they just send jack-boot thugs to perform illegal searches of all homes like Fallujah?

I dont care about 4473 forms but I will refuse to give my info to a private citizen for record keeping. Ill show my CCW permit for reassurance but I dont see the point of any ordinary citizen recording my private info.

ETA: I am in no way referring to our service men/women as thugs. It was more about the style of raids performed.

T Bran
May 13, 2012, 12:37 PM
There are simply to many guns out there for them to deal with in any effective way.
If they are going to do something foolish it will be done via the amunition for those guns.
Gotta go make a new chinstrap for my foil headware it keeps slipping [maybe best to spring clamp it to my ears].
T

22-rimfire
May 13, 2012, 12:37 PM
If the government actually wanted to do this, it would start out with registration and and a registry and become more restrictive down the time line. People would rebel if it was done quickly. It is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is far more effective to regulate ammunition sales via taxation and restrictions on type of ammunition. If you can't buy or load ammunition, a gun is just a club.

newbuckeye
May 13, 2012, 12:39 PM
Thats exactly why they want access to all credit card transactions without a search warrant. The CC companies already save every purchase you make but the gubment has to have a reason to look at it. Then they will know every ammo, primer, powder, and boolet purchase you make.

FROGO207
May 13, 2012, 12:50 PM
After the form is filled out and possession taken of said firearm you can do whatever you want with it as long as it is legal. In states where the paperwork has to move with the purchase I feel sorry for the population. I live in a free state that does not require registration unless it is required by BATF. Say class 3 or silencers and such. I can sell a firearm to anyone without paperwork as long as they are legally able to purchase it from me. If I buy a firearm today and tomorrow find a deal that I can't refuse and trade, or need some fast cash and legally sell it to someone there is nothing they can do to me. NOTE---NOT a straw purchase IF I originally purchased the firearm for my own use at the time of sale and then decided to sell it for any number of reasons at any time thereafter. That includes as a gift for a third party as long as everyone can legally take ownership. This all has been laid out before on here to an extreme. I agree if the time comes that the gov attempts to confiscate all the firearms that is the time to use them not hide any IMHO. If it gets to that those left here will only THINK that they are still free.:scrutiny:

Fatelvis
May 13, 2012, 12:54 PM
I consider it a good day anytime I end a paper trail.
M2 I agree wholeheartedly! Lol

If the US government start's coming door to door for weapons, crossed checked against 4473's our country is dead. That's the point that we need to take up those weapons and remove that government. There's no point in turning most weapons over to the troops, and saving a hold out. What, at that point, are you saving it for? There's someone on here's sig line that says, in response (I assume) to the omnipresent boating accident and questions like this: If it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them. And they're right. At the hypothetical you're proposing, don't hide one or two guns, start shooting. The revolution is here at that point. So given all that, what do I care if the troops that knock on my door have a list of what's about to shoot at them?
Dogmush, very well said!

Texan Scott
May 13, 2012, 12:54 PM
GOD BLESS TEXAS. (...and that's all I have to say about that. -Forest Gump)

Carl N. Brown
May 13, 2012, 01:33 PM
From my archives on Katrina at least four mainstream news videos touching on arms confiscations.

ABC abcnews.mpeg early general evacuation order, 8 Sep 2005 evacuate "w/o using force"; police and national guard house-to-house with guns includng M4s drawn w. orders to take guns from residents. NOPD chief: "No one will be allowed to be armed." Guns taken from dry wealthy neighborhoods

CNN ForcedEvacCNN.wmv forced evacuation, arms confiscation

SF Ch2 CHP1.asx deployment of Califorina Highway Patrol CHP sworn in as LSP special officers

SF Ch2 CHP2.asx CHPs v Patricia Konie in her home. her Magazine St. house high and dry, stockpiled food, water, meds, pets; she refuses to leave, they ask about weapons, she shows her revolver and knife; CHPs body slam her against the wall, drag her out with a dislocated shoulder to be taken to evacuation center.

No pulling 4473s from dealers; apparently they went door to door and if you answered, asked, got guns?

Of course today anti-gunners maintain none of that happened, it was just NRA propaganda.

Tommygunn
May 13, 2012, 01:55 PM
Well, having inherited a Remington .22 rifle, a 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun, a 20 gauge pump and an M-1 carbine from my father I have "off-paper" acquisitions.

I am not sure whether or not gun registration will necessarily have to precede confiscation. I don't have a very high opinion of our legislatures' IQs and they may do it bass ackwards from what history suggests.
That said I do think any large scale confiscation would be tough as there are too few LEOs (and other agency martinets) available to do it efficiently. However, an inability to do something "efficiently" has never stopped our much renowned government from its ambitions....:uhoh:

Midwest
May 13, 2012, 02:43 PM
Sales records are not registration, but to get national registration, there are hurdles.
Anyone not pay attention to what happened with the Canadian long gun registry?
After seventeen years it was repealled.

During those 17 years there was probably 50% non compliance rate among Canadian long gun owners. Protests with public burning of registration forms.

At a cost of 2.7 billion dollars, the registry produced corrobating evidence in four cases where the suspect, motive and opportunity were established evidence; not really an aid in conviction, and no crimes prevented or solved as a result of the registry.

I think the history of the Canadian long gun registry shows that the costs of national gun registration are very, very high, and the benefits are practically non-existent (unless you are a politically-connected computer system vendor).


You have to love our friends up North. One enterprising individual even registered a soldering gun out of protest of the gun registry.

This is from ten years ago....

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-105821.html



Manitoba man who registered soldering gun as a protest could get jail time

OAK LAKE, Man. (CP) - A man who successfully registered his soldering gun as a firearm says he did so to point out the absurdity of the federal gun registry program.

But Brian Buckley's act of civil disobedience may create more problems than he bargained for. Government officials aren't happy and, according to the Criminal Code, he could go to jail for up to five years. Buckley, who has a possession-only firearms licence, said he got a form to register his guns in the mail around Christmas time.

By law, all firearms must be registered by Jan. 1, 2003.

However, Canadians have not been quick to comply and that forced Ottawa to waive registration fees last October in an attempt to get more guns listed.

Buckley, who is an autobody shop owner, said he is opposed to the new gun laws and calls the registration process a waste of time and money.

So he decided to play with the system.

"I just filled it in," he said. "I put my Black & Decker heat gun and my Weller soldering gun on there, didn't stamp it, and sent it back in."

He listed the "guns" as a non-restricted firearm, the same as most shotguns or hunting rifles. In the spot asking for the gun's make, he filled out Black & Decker/Weller. In the spot for type, he put heat gun/soldering gun.

When the registration card came back a few weeks later, Buckley couldn't believe his eyes.

"It never once occurred to me that it would be taken seriously and that I would get a certificate and be issued a registration number," Buckley said. "It never crossed my mind that they are that incompetent there."


(He did not receive a fine or jail time)

GambJoe
May 13, 2012, 02:53 PM
I don't believe our government will ever try to confiscate all fire arms. If I were to purchace from a private party I would do so as the law allows.

Walkalong
May 13, 2012, 03:43 PM
I have guns I bought from individuals with no paperwork, and guns I bought from dealers where I did the paper work. They are all the same to me.

If the day comes when the government shows up to take your guns, it won't matter, and they will not rest until they find them all. They will not believe you lost them in a boating accident, or that the ones you bought through a dealer are all you have.

Get involved, get people to vote, help educate people. Stop it before it ever gets to that point, because if it ever gets there, we are screwed.

Elkins45
May 13, 2012, 03:53 PM
I have guns I bought from individuals with no paperwork, and guns I bought from dealers where I did the paper work. They are all the same to me.

They aren't quite the same to me. I own some guns purchased through private party sales and I would never carry a gun for CCW that I didn't have a dated 4473 form for. God forbid I ever need to use a gun in self-defense, but God also forbid if that gun turns out to have a 'skeleton in its closet' that could possibly be pinned on me.

But I certainly agree with your bigger point...if the time comes we need to be worried about having paper on guns then it's past time to save ourselves.

loneviking
May 13, 2012, 03:56 PM
Having recently had some guns stolen, I contacted the ATF to try to prove ownership for an insurance dispute. The ATF has no record of what you purchased under your name. The only way they can trace is by serial number and the records only go back to about 1990 in their database. So, no, I'm not worried about this.

scaatylobo
May 13, 2012, 04:53 PM
I was told by many shooter friends that they have plans in place to do some 'backyard' planting at O'dark thirty if there is a gun confiscation law passed.

They also said it was not actually their backyard,just an expression.

I too doubt that it will ever come to this in my lifetime,but :what:.

22-rimfire
May 13, 2012, 05:02 PM
...the records only go back to about 1990 in their database.

That is 22 years and this alone is a cause for concern since the ATF can not keep these records by law (as I understand it).

Rail Driver
May 13, 2012, 05:28 PM
... because if it ever gets to that point we are screwed.

That defeatist attitude is what will cause us the most trouble IF it comes to that point.

Deanimator
May 13, 2012, 05:54 PM
90% of my gun (at least) were purchased face to face from individuals.

The government doesn't have a CLUE how many guns I have or where they are.

I like it that way.

Apuuli
May 13, 2012, 06:13 PM
That's what you think! BWAHAHAHAHA!

Walkalong
May 13, 2012, 07:08 PM
That defeatist attitude
I disagree that it is a defeatist attitude, more like a realistic attitude.

Bubbles
May 13, 2012, 07:44 PM
No pulling 4473s from dealers; apparently they went door to door and if you answered, asked, got guns?

Of course today anti-gunners maintain none of that happened, it was just NRA propaganda.
With all due respect to local LE - without a subpoena or warrant, you have no business looking through my 4473's or bound books.

Twmaster
May 13, 2012, 07:47 PM
Defeatist or realist, we -are- in deep doo-doo if we ever get to that point.

Wake up Amerika. The clue phone is ringing. It's for YOU.

jhco50
May 13, 2012, 09:20 PM
My honest opinion is that if Obama gets a second term, it will be the beginning of the end of our country. I believe violence will break out shortly after his election and grow from there.

NMGonzo
May 13, 2012, 09:23 PM
I never find the deals at the gunshops that equal the deals on private transactions.

Shadow 7D
May 13, 2012, 09:49 PM
I have an issue only when it's the MAJOR issue, a guy come looking to buy a guy 'under the table' and keeps making a major issue, well, if he refuses to provide basic info like a DL to verify state of residence, or blows up at the request, well red flags are waving.

That said, I have sold guns 'No questions asked'
he showed me his DL, and cash, I handed the gun over and we parted ways, he didn't want a bill of sale, and I wasn't worried. But then I had just seen him buy from a FFL and get a GO, so... Someone comes at me looking for a 'untraceable gun' etc. I throw a C&R BB sheet at them. I don't have to sell, they don't have to buy.

pharmer
May 13, 2012, 09:52 PM
I have bought more than a few guns on 4473's and I have a CWP for the last 25 years. I'm on "the list." If the Constitution is suspended, we and the .gov are going to have more than guns to worry about. Joe

dogtown tom
May 13, 2012, 09:54 PM
jhco50 My honest opinion is that if Obama gets a second term, it will be the beginning of the end of our country. I believe violence will break out shortly after his election and grow from there.
Good grief.:rolleyes:

Averageman
May 13, 2012, 10:39 PM
When someone tells me that, I often wonder if they have a felony somewhere in their past.

Hossfly68
May 14, 2012, 12:30 AM
On the issue of invading America, Isoroku Yamamoto said:
"...We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass."

I have no doubt that the outcome would be much the same if our own Government tried something like taking our guns. Average citizens and most of the military and law enforcement would fight the seizure, even if they don't think it'll ever happen now. I haven't done research, but I've heard of an organization called "The Promise Keepers" (or something like that) that I believe will stand up for the Constitution and our civil rights.

But if you'd like a good book on that very subject, read
"Enemies, Foreign & Domestic"

Warp
May 14, 2012, 01:07 AM
I don't think having the gun in your name on a 4473, or not, matters.

As it stands now in most of the country there is no registration, so they really have no idea what firearms you do or do not legally own or possess. There are some exceptions, of course, where states like Michigan and Pennsylvania have registration of pistols.

If they go around asking what you have openly visible, tell them about, others tell them about, etc will be what matters.

If push comes to shove and they show up en force to check, what you have there is what you have there, "on paper" or not.

In neither case does a 4473 matter.


I don't believe our government will ever try to confiscate all fire arms. If I were to purchace from a private party I would do so as the law allows.

But they HAVE


I was told by many shooter friends that they have plans in place to do some 'backyard' planting at O'dark thirty if there is a gun confiscation law passed.

They will do registration first, THEN confiscation. Burying them will only matter if:

1) They are not registered
2) Nobody will come looking for them (if buried on your property or somewhere else they would think to look...)
3) You actually find a need in the future worthy enough of taking the risk of digging them back up. (seems that needing to bury them is as good a reason as you will get, with advanced notice, to use them)

Jeff F
May 14, 2012, 01:13 AM
On the issue of invading America, Isoroku Yamamoto said:
"...We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass."

I have no doubt that the outcome would be much the same if our own Government tried something like taking our guns. Average citizens and most of the military and law enforcement would fight the seizure, even if they don't think it'll ever happen now. I haven't done research, but I've heard of an organization called "The Promise Keepers" (or something like that) that I believe will stand up for the Constitution and our civil rights.

But if you'd like a good book on that very subject, read
"Enemies, Foreign & Domestic"
You might have some groups of people stand up and fight and probably will have some LE and a lot in the military that would not want to be part of it, but in my experience the majority of lawful gun owner would just hand them over. I know we hear in the forums 'they will have to pry them from my cold dead fingers' and a lot of talk like that. but really? Most Americans just don't have the stomach for that kind of violence.

shiftyer1
May 14, 2012, 01:39 AM
I like to buy from private parties sometimes because the price is 80% of the time lower than at a store front.

I have also filled out several 4473's, they know I have guns. They know I have prchased either a hand gun or a longgun, they know when and where. If they want to know exactly what they would need to go to that store and ask. Depending on the filing system and electronics.........that could be ALOT of work.

IF they started confiscating guns it stands to reason that the guy with 50 hits in 20 years probably has a gun today. If you never buy over the counter.....you have 0 hits. I'm already screwed, and I can't even produce guns I bought 10 years ago.

Don't forget you need to buy ammo, they have a camara there. You could buy from a reloader......unless they catch him and he flips on you.

I still have faith that most folks in this country have any sense..........I think.

Warp
May 14, 2012, 01:44 AM
Don't forget you need to buy ammo, they have a camara there.

Now this is true tin foil hat territory.

shiftyer1
May 14, 2012, 01:46 AM
lol

Fishslayer
May 14, 2012, 03:07 AM
It is far more effective to regulate ammunition sales via taxation and restrictions on type of ammunition. If you can't buy or load ammunition, a gun is just a club.

It's already in place in several Kalifornistan cities. They tried to make it statewide but it got thrown out in the courts.

They are working on refinements as we speak.

And we already have registration in the People's Republik. All firearm sales must go through an FFL.

cyclopsshooter
May 14, 2012, 03:50 AM
ATF can not keep these records by law

Don't know the score on that one but the ATF is not always above doing whatever it wants.

Warp
May 14, 2012, 03:56 AM
ATF...law not allowing them to do something...just see Fast/Furious. Or, uh, how about Waco?

Those with power will do whatever the heck they want.

Jim NE
May 14, 2012, 04:13 AM
Not trying to be flippant, but if the government tries to confiscate guns in the manner the op suggested, getting proper documentation from citizens will be the least of their worries.

I have, however thought of this scenario. What are they going to do ? Arrest all the people who say they don't have documentation for guns they sold decades ago? Does the government actually still have a record of the first gun I bought as a teenager over 35 years ago? Or actually believe I still possess it? I rather doubt it.

On the other hand, folks may want to think twice about creating a paper trail for firearms they've inherited (informally) or purchased from private parties without documentation. I'm talking mostly about having them insured or keeping repair receipts.

It's hard to know just how totalitarian our government will end up being, if at all.

JERRY
May 14, 2012, 04:31 AM
Discussing logically:

I don't worry about buying on or off a 4473, I just look for a good deal. I don't think it matters. Here's why: (Note, I don't think this is actually, reasonably going to happen. We're deep in fiction territory here)

If the US government start's coming door to door for weapons, crossed checked against 4473's our country is dead. That's the point that we need to take up those weapons and remove that government. There's no point in turning most weapons over to the troops, and saving a hold out. What, at that point, are you saving it for? There's someone on here's sig line that says, in response (I assume) to the omnipresent boating accident and questions like this: If it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them. And they're right. At the hypothetical you're proposing, don't hide one or two guns, start shooting. The revolution is here at that point. So given all that, what do I care if the troops that knock on my door have a list of what's about to shoot at them?



what he said!!!

olderguns
May 14, 2012, 07:59 AM
I don't think they would have to fight to get most gun away from people because as some have already said, just keep raising the price of Ammo and tax onthe gun itself,
plus there will be really tight new laws to make sure most people would give up their guns, lets face it if it could get you 20 years prison just for owning one or life for using it, 90% will just give up..

Orion8472
May 14, 2012, 09:58 AM
olderguns, . . . that is probably the case, sadly. . . . . . even though "THEM" coming to take guns from private individuals IS against the 2nd Amendment, thus illegal. . . . . so why would I want to help them perform an illegal act?

22-rimfire
May 14, 2012, 10:02 AM
...lets face it if it could get you 20 years prison just for owning one or life for using it, 90% will just give up.

That's the heart of the matter and probably reality. Of course, the "hunting" rifles and shotguns would be excluded. :D

HGUNHNTR
May 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
edit by hgn

CountryUgly
May 14, 2012, 12:58 PM
The one time the "paper trail" is useful is if your gun is ever stolen and recovered or for whatever reason it gets locked up in the evidence locker. They are going to want proof of ownership for you to be able to get your gun back. So if you do a FTF buy/sale/trade at least get a bill of sale that includes the date and serial number for your records purpose. If the jackboot ninjas come knocking throw the paperwork in the fire and claim all your firearms were lost at sea in a tragic boating accident.

mberoose
May 14, 2012, 01:04 PM
In CT it's not required to disclose the sale of long guns, nor is it required to register them. I obtain a bill of sale with the information relevant to the rifle and parties involved, and that's that. :)

ares338
May 14, 2012, 01:55 PM
If it comes to confiscating guns then this country is down the crapper anyhow and I don't and won't live in a socialist environment! The phrase " you can pry my weapons from my cold dead hands " takes on a real clear meaning.

ThorinNNY
May 14, 2012, 02:07 PM
Most gun owners I know would politely but firmly ask you to leave their premises if you showed up at their door wearing a tinfoil hat with an antenna made of paperclips trailing down your back :rolleyes: not matter how much you might offer them for the chance to a firearm "off the books"!

Claude Clay
May 14, 2012, 02:24 PM
back 5 or more years ago in Connecticut, the State Police sent out letters to gun owners threatening that they had 14 days to prove what they had in their possession. included with the letter was a list of what they said we had. lots of panic especially as many people believed that their was no gun registration in CT cause thats what those in power always told the media.

turned out that the lists the state had, had many errors (transfers not recorded mostly) and it was up to the individuals to prove they did not still own a great many items. eventually we the ones threatened, started noticing gaps in the dates and the state came clean ( well, they explained) that a disk got wiped and to cover their blunders, they tried (successfully) the strong arm tactic of threating owners with felonies.

years later, all is still good in Corrupticut...registration lives.

and 'we' found out that even though there is no required paper work on the sale of black powder items, stores were writting up and sending in the transfer forms after the purchaser left the store anyways. they all ( all i am aware of) lied to the customers. though embarrassing, the store owners never apologized to anyone i am aware of.

22-rimfire
May 14, 2012, 02:28 PM
If you believe Dick Morris, he claims that the UN Small Arms Treaty (being negotiated by Hillary and Obama) would in fact affect US citizens and would be a back door approach to registration in the US. The approval of the treaty would require registration in order for the US Government to comply and restrict the export of small arms outside our boundaries. That is the first step... So, make of that what you want to.

In PA, there is a registry maintained by the State Police and they claim that it is not registration because it is just a data base.

Warp
May 14, 2012, 02:32 PM
Not trying to be flippant, but if the government tries to confiscate guns in the manner the op suggested, getting proper documentation from citizens will be the least of their worries.

I have, however thought of this scenario. What are they going to do ? Arrest all the people who say they don't have documentation for guns they sold decades ago? Does the government actually still have a record of the first gun I bought as a teenager over 35 years ago? Or actually believe I still possess it? I rather doubt it.

On the other hand, folks may want to think twice about creating a paper trail for firearms they've inherited (informally) or purchased from private parties without documentation. I'm talking mostly about having them insured or keeping repair receipts.

It's hard to know just how totalitarian our government will end up being, if at all.

What they would probably do is first require registration. After a period of time where registration is mandatory, if you are found to be in possession of a gun that you don't have paperwork for, you go to jail.

That means, post-registration, that you need to put them on paper, seriously risk facing legal consequences, or at the very least stop actually using the un-registered gun (no carrying it, toting it around in your car, taking it out shooting, having it in your home or business, etc). Basically bury it somewhere and never use it again.


A lot of you guys are already in the registration phase, especially for handguns. States like Pennsylvania and Michigan...handgun registration. And I'm sure there are plenty of others as well. New York...yeah, you're already halfway screwed there.

AEA
May 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
The first sign of registration/confiscation will be the regulation of ammunition and reloading supplies.

Claude Clay
May 14, 2012, 02:46 PM
copy & past above was partial......

with a restraining order, the police come to your home with a list of every gun you have bought and sold to confiscate them, or sometimes you are given a day to get them out of your hands ( requires 4473's). my neighbor is a shooting buddy and his ex went vicious on him, got a RO and thats how i ended up holding his stuff for over a year. and thats how we discovered the failure to enter sales still is happening; more than 1/2 of what they said he had, he still had. and he had to sigh some 'felony if your lying' statements to appease the court.
than the policeman happens to say, if he had just left them at a friend before they showed up, no transfers would have been necessary.
how can we respect a system that allows the police to play loose like that?

anchorman
May 14, 2012, 03:57 PM
How did the post-Katrina confiscations go down? Were old 4473 forms checked and houses were searched? Did they go door to door "asking"? Or did they just send jack-boot thugs to perform illegal searches of all homes like Fallujah?



That is exactly what they did. George w. bush sent blackwater mercenaries in with no badges, no name tags, m4's, and no accountability. And yes they were kicking doors in and searching for people who wanted to be left alone on their own property. I have a number of friends who kindly asked to be left alone, to no avail. Fortunately one of them is a foul mouthed old lady who was able to shame a few of them into behaving before they "evacuated" her from her house where she was comfortably sitting on high ground above the floodwaters.

Outsourcing government work to blackwater and their ilk is Crony capitalism and totalitarianism run amok. Their right to earn profits at the expense of the general public is greater than all of your constitutional rights combined.

Rail Driver
May 14, 2012, 04:01 PM
That is exactly what they did. George w. bush sent blackwater mercenaries in with no badges, no name tags, m4's, and no accountability. And yes they were kicking doors in and searching for people who wanted to be left alone on their own property. I have a number of friends who kindly asked to be left alone, to no avail. Fortunately one of them is a foul mouthed old lady who was able to shame a few of them into behaving before they "evacuated" her from her house where she was comfortably sitting on high ground above the floodwaters.

Outsourcing government work to blackwater and their ilk is Crony capitalism and totalitarianism run amok. Their right to earn profits at the expense of the general public is greater than all of your constitutional rights combined.
Pretty sure you're wrong there pal - If I'm not mistaken it was NOPD and National Guard doing the confiscating along with a few deputized members of other sheriff and police departments that had volunteered to "help keep the peace".

Lets not try and make this a political rant.

Warp
May 14, 2012, 04:07 PM
I know the most popular video was LEO tackling the little old lady. Not blackwater.

DammitBoy
May 14, 2012, 04:21 PM
The first sign of registration/confiscation will be the regulation of ammunition and reloading supplies.

I'm sorry, but we are way past the "first sign of registration". We have states that already have mandatory registration of all firearms.

We are one Supreme Court Justice away from having confiscation become a likely reality...

anchorman
May 14, 2012, 06:10 PM
Lets not try and make this a political rant.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! that is funny. this whole thing is one big political rant.

I'm just going on what my friend was telling me she saw, men without badges or ID, driving around in black vehicles, ramming down locked doors with railroad ties in order to "save" people who were hiding from them intentionally. would you come to the door and say hello if the jackbooted thugs were knocking it down? Sure, no I.D. no badge, it's hard to say who they were, but they definitely weren't uniformed police or national guard.

The black helicopters came, but they turned out to be black suburbans, at the behest of George W. Bush. This isn't me trying to be political, it's me trying to point out the crazy in some people's arguments, thinking the current administration is somehow 1000x more evil than the last because they think that this one's a socialist, and this one is scarry and going to take our guns. Under the watch of a president who was supposed to be Grade AAA rated from the NRA, they came and they illegally confiscated people's guns. Yet no one cried that george bush was the antichrist... I don't care what your politics are, but at least be consistent in how they are applied. George Bush (both of them) were gun grabbers. Obama has done nothing of the sort. Even if he secretly is, he's too smart politically to make an issue of it, since he knows it is a non-starter... I don't like obama for a number of reasons I won't go in to, same as I don't like george bush for a number of reasons I won't go in to, so Let's look at evidence and actual occurrences, not at fantasy land stuff here, and focus out attentions on the real threats to our liberties, which is totalitarian leaning types of all political stripes.

longstandingletdown
May 14, 2012, 06:57 PM
I'm not trying to instigate anything here, but if "THEY" came around to strip you of your constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms, a right which, beyond all others, is the literal foundation of this entire country (American Revolution,) then would you peacefully give up your arms?

I have both registered and unregistered weapons, but I fail to see how this is even a relevant quandary in the eyes of the informed. Ammunition prices will go up, it is the only way guns will stay legal, if you haven't noticed that trend then you should pay better attention to recent history (last few decades.)

Personally, I would honestly rather be a criminal with the freedom to protect myself using the most efficient arms available, then a citizen stripped of his right to personal defense using modern technology. However, I pray it never comes to that.

anchorman
May 14, 2012, 07:11 PM
However, I pray it never comes to that.

Don't just pray, do something... celebrate "teach a liberal to shoot day". It is a great holiday, because you can celebrate it every day. The best way to ensure that the second amendment is not ignored our outright gotten rid of is to take your friends who are scared of guns and people who own them, and teach them firearm safety while introducing them to the joys of shooting.

Buck Kramer
May 14, 2012, 07:11 PM
Theres just too many to keep track of, from 1998 to 2009 there was over 110,000,000 NICS background checks to purchase firearms. Just the logistics of storing that much information are crazy.

http://cdn.ammoland.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nics-background-check-2009.jpg

I'm not worried, as the general consensus above states, if its time to bury your guns its time to use them.

T Bran
May 14, 2012, 07:26 PM
Please dont make me use the frog and boiling water analogy please.
If you think the government or some crony is going to go house to house and kick down doors to get your guns you have a screw loose.
With the cost of fuel you can be certain they will have you deliver them to a disposal facility on your nickle. Do we even know how much that many guns weigh. How's the mileage on a 6x6 these days.
Told ya I had to adjust the chinstrap on my foil headware.
T

Grmlin
May 14, 2012, 09:04 PM
I have noticed if I use a credit card to buy ammo I have to input my zip code but not when I use it to but house hold items. Anyone know what the deal with that is.

Is anyone selling the guaranteed high speed tin foil hats my homemade ones don't seem to be working?:rolleyes:

Warp
May 14, 2012, 09:07 PM
Grmlin: Where are you referring to?

22-rimfire
May 14, 2012, 09:25 PM
Warp, that quote above was from Jim NE's post, not mine. Just saying...

But, I think we are about half-way to registration already whether we know it or not between the couple of states that maintain registries, foid cards to purchase, and outright registration. It is being handled by the States and not the Federal Government, but IF the ATF/FBI saves the NICs check information, they have a very good record of every gun sold through a FFL dealer already whether they are allowed to keep this data or not. I believe they do store this information. But I can't prove it. Will it affect me in my lifetime? Probably not.

As far as the amount of computer storage necessary, it is no big deal for the Federal Government. Consider how much stuff is already stored and especially since a lot of the old documents have been scanned for storage from hard copies.

Warp
May 14, 2012, 09:41 PM
I really do wish THR had a proper quote system.

Robert
May 14, 2012, 09:44 PM
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! that is funny. this whole thing is one big political rant.
Yup. Pretty much. And we do not do political threads, at all. Nor do we do tin foil the sky is falling what if threads either.

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