Who uses/has a pistol compensator?


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TITAN308
May 14, 2012, 11:22 PM
Have wanted for a while to model compensator after the H&K USP Match pistol that has long since been discontinued.

Originally the design was going to be for a Glock 17, but that has been gone a while so I am having my machine shop partners make one for my CZ75 Duty pistol. I just want it for fun at the range and to help my wife, but I am curious if there are certain types of pistol matches (open class?) that allow for these?

Does anyone use one of these on their night stand gun?

And now my master level artistic skills at work... :lol:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/179/dscf4903m.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9607/dscf4908.jpg

And for reference, the old H&K USP Match:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8270/cimg0372c.jpg

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Bobson
May 15, 2012, 01:32 AM
I wasn't going to bog this down with my noob question, but since nobody's posted yet...

What does a compensator actually do?

bds
May 15, 2012, 01:51 AM
What does a compensator actually do?
High pressure gas escaping through the compensator cuts/holes push down on the muzzle to counteract or "compensate" for the rise/flip of the muzzle from recoil.

Open class competition shooters custom tailor the compensator type to the pistol/barrel/recoil spring rate/bullet/powder charge used so the pistol stays virtually flat shot-to-shot so you can engage the targets faster.


Here's an example of non-compensated pistol shooting (Look at the first person perspective at :10 second mark of the video where the front sight jumps/flips from recoil) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_aD5U2OT8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL70D1A9A9CD78C76D


Here are examples of compensated pistol shooting (notice minimal muzzle flip from recoil):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgCKTiB-Ldo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehx9pLXmqtc&feature=relmfu

gotboostvr
May 15, 2012, 01:53 AM
looks like you could stand to loose a bit of weight off that.

Muzzle compensators redirect gasses from the muzzle and push the gun against it's natural reaction to recoil away from the target.

coalman
May 15, 2012, 02:28 AM
I ran a comp. on a 1911. That thing was sweet. Having all that metal right up from helps, too.

Cosmoline
May 15, 2012, 02:59 AM
What does a compensator actually do?

An excellent question. It increases the noise level you experience, sometimes tosses crud back at you, and looks cool. Other than that I really have never seen the point to them. If you want less recoil, get a heavier firearm or a lower powered cartridge.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 07:58 AM
A compensator can be either an item that forces muzzle gases to exert downward force on the barrel, an attachment that is strictly adding weight, or some combo of the two.

Mine would be the third.

ku4hx
May 15, 2012, 09:06 AM
I used to own a compensated pistol chambered in Dillon's 9x25. If I wasn't especially careful in crafting ammunition, it actually had negative recoil. Can't speak for others, but the comp on this gun worked exceptionally well.

Had an offer to sell the gun for more than what I had in it so I parted with it; dies, cases and everything. I guess comps are fine, but unless you're particularity recoil sensitive, or just like the wind in your face, I see no need for them.

2wheels
May 15, 2012, 09:33 AM
My old man has one of those slightly extended "compensated" barrels in .357SIG for his P239. He ordered it by accident when he wanted a regular .40-.357SIG conversion barrel and decided to keep it for fun at the range.

I only fired one mag through that barrel, but it did slightly reduce the amount of muzzle flip when compared to the uncompensated .357SIG barrel. Certainly wasn't a night and day difference.

Greg528iT
May 15, 2012, 09:47 AM
Does anyone use one of these on their night stand gun?

The compensator will put more FLASH in your eyes. So while the muzzle will be easier to put back on target faster, you won't be able to see your target for said 2nd shot. I am assuming that as a night stand gun, you mean that you may need to use it at night, in the dark.

I have a compensator on my Ruger Mark III (just for fun) and on my Springer 1911, the muzzle flash is VERY noticeable during the day. At night in a dark room, it'd be pretty disorienting.

Greg528iT
May 15, 2012, 09:52 AM
I ran a comp. on a 1911. That thing was sweet. Having all that metal right up from helps, too.

I notice the effect on my 1911 as well. When the 'others' jump in and start saying that a 45 ACP is just too slow and too low a pressure to have any real effect for a compensator, I'll admit I can't quite tell if it's not just the extra weight out front that's helping. but I LIKE IT.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 09:52 AM
Not all compensators are ported.

Some merely add additional weight to the front muzzle to reduce muzzle climb.

Well we are going to prototype two types for the CZ and look into other pistol models.

1. Weighted and Ported

2. Weighted Version Only

Should be fun.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 10:03 AM
And for you 1911 guys...

1911 "Strikeplate"

http://urbanadvantage.net/images/SPRS%20M6.JPG

http://urbanadvantage.net/images/Desert%20Tan.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRXxpK1vbx5lKlvhhorWGibFemNsGSvWqueFY-_VYuXfgD8Id3EhYIh7sya

-----------------------------------------------------------------

For the Beretta 92 fans:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/uploads/post-23-1077834268.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJhTYYyJxAbsasfMQG0fuqIKJIget5rDHQcsEK-R8gzpplzHHjrcFkGG_y

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5066180490_430cce82f5.jpg

bds
May 15, 2012, 10:08 AM
Certainly wasn't a night and day difference.
Amount of "compensation" depends a lot on the powder and powder charge used in the ammunition. Some powders and lighter powder charges won't generate enough high pressure gas to produce noticeable/significant compensation. Using some lighter charge factory target loads may not produce enough high pressure gas for a compensated pistol/barrel.

I do not see practical application of compensator on non-match pistols as you would need to match the load to the compensator and you can't adjust the powder charge (unless you want to go through A LOT of ammunition to find the box that provides just the right amount of compensation. ;):D).

Even for compensated match pistols, it takes some trial and error using the right powders and high enough powder charge to get the pistol shooting flat.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 10:34 AM
Not claiming its Tier 1 or anything, but for weaker shooters (my wife) and maybe even for teaching children a weighted compensator to tame the snap could prove very nice.

bds
May 15, 2012, 10:41 AM
Here's a link to discussion of compensator use with "minor match loads" that are comparable to factory loads - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119046

F-111 John
May 15, 2012, 10:54 AM
I'm not clear how this compensator is supposed to work, compared to a compensator that is threadded onto the barrel.

If the compensator is mounted to the dust cover rail, does there need to be a gap between the barrel and the compensator to allow the barrel to tip up during action cycling? If so, does this gap lower the effectiveness of the compensator through lost pressure?

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 11:10 AM
John compensators of this nature operate usually in one of two ways.

If its a non-tilt barrel its pretty straight forward.

However if its a tilt barrel then there is is an open space on the roof (you kind of notice it in my hand drawing, bottom left top view) to allow the barrel the tilt room needed.

Also some models have an extended barrel that goes all the way through the compensator and others (like mine) that use a standard barrel. And generally there is a small gap to answer your question.

Here is a top view of the H&K USP Match to give you an idea how they allow tilt barrel models to operate:

http://movie-guns.img.jugem.jp/20091006_2969946.jpg

Greg528iT
May 15, 2012, 12:48 PM
Adding weight to a polymer gun seems to be going the wrong way.

If it's non ported, just hang lead weights to the accessory rail. Yes, further out would be better, but closer in would be a LOT easier.

If the compensator is mounted to the dust cover rail, does there need to be a gap between the barrel and the compensator to allow the barrel to tip up during action cycling? If so, does this gap lower the effectiveness of the compensator through lost pressure?

YES... and there will be a leak just like between a revolver cylinder and barrel. Actually worse cause on a auto, your gap would probably need to be larger to ensure reliability. The "ported" compensators attached directly to the barrel work the best. Does a floating or non attached compensator work? I say, yes, to some extent. We could get into a $/ degree change, but we have that all the time. Is a Ed Brown 1911 that much better than a stock Springfield/ Colt/ Ruger etc????

I don't think "I" would call a non ported attachment a compensator. I'd call it a counterweight.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 01:14 PM
I don't think "I" would call a non ported attachment a compensator. I'd call it a counterweight.

Isn't this just splitting hairs? Counterweight = compensating for something using weight.

Adding weight to a polymer gun seems to be going the wrong way.

Well when manufactures make more of a point to have a steel version of every model I will agree. I don't really care for the looks of a standard CZ75, I do however like the lines on a CZ Duty. There is not steel version of the duty as it looks now.

If it's non ported, just hang lead weights to the accessory rail.

Because that doesn't look nearly as nice?

I'm not afraid to admit I want a good looking gun. I have my "beater" guns, but a majority of my collection is built how I want them to look.

If I am going to customize something, does not seem like much effort to basically get a small brick and ziptie it to the rail. No rather the fun is imagining, designing, producing something that looks like some effort was put into it.

I get that some people operate strictly under the "how does it work" not "how does it look" - but a majority in my opinion are a mixture of both.

Some people customize cars. Some customize trucks. We customize guns. :)


PS: I AM A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE DARN IT!

CharlieDeltaJuliet
May 15, 2012, 01:18 PM
I just sold a Dan Wesson 357 with interchangable barrels the had a compensator on one of its 6-inch barrels. I didnt own it long but it shot remarkable.

Greg528iT
May 15, 2012, 02:00 PM
Isn't this just splitting hairs?
WHY YES it is. :) but what better place to split hairs than on a gun forum.
Wanna start talking about what a .45 Colt is? Or is it .45 Long Colt. Or what a REAL 1911 is or isn't. ;)
I think you'll find though that a pretty good majority of people on a gun forum when they hear or read "compensator" they think "ports" and shooting gasses (and flames) up. Also usually when talking about compensators, they talk about the increased noise from the shooters perspective. So back to your original post and a night stand table, a ported compensator will be the last thing I want on a enclosed space, in the dark shooting weapon.

OK, NOT lead.. how about just a massive steel block with fancy machine work scrolls and ribs hanging off the accessory rail and still leaving your night stand gun short and maneuverable. :D Not that the extra 2-3 inches of your design is going to matter.

F-111 John
May 15, 2012, 02:08 PM
Titan: Thanks for that. So then this is more a barrel weight than an actual compsenator, which I take to mean redirected gasses through ports, an example would be any of the Glock "C" pistols.

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 02:46 PM
Titan: Thanks for that. So then this is more a barrel weight than an actual compsenator, which I take to mean redirected gasses through ports, an example would be any of the Glock "C" pistols.

Correct.

The design I have drawn would allow one at a later time (after the fact basically) to add an extended barrel that IS ported on the end and the vents on the top of my design will allow proper exit for the gasses.

When I design something, I try and throw in things that *might* be used at some point and its just easier to design it in from the start then have to back track and re-work.

Even without the mentioned item, there would still be some light "porting action" based merely in the fact that when the bullet exits the barrel all that gas is behind it and my compensator will still direct some of it out the top, even if its designed to work best with an extended barrel. Does that make sense?

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2012, 04:48 PM
Isn't this just splitting hairs? Counterweight = compensating for something using weight.

I understand your reasoning, but what you are in fact doing is trying to confuse the meaning of commonly accepted pre-existing terms.

1. There are ported barrels that direct gases upward to counteract the muzzle flip...the most well known are Mag-na-porting and Hydraporting.

2. There are barrel weights...extra weights added to the barrel that are used to delay of off-set muzzle flip. The most common are Olympic target guns and Pin guns from the early days of USPSA/IPSC. Weights attached to the barrel of a moving barrel affect the timing of the action and usually require that different springs by match to the recoil impulse.

Weights attached to the frame/dustcover fall under this category, but not being attached to the barrel means that they do not affect the timing of the action.

3. Compensators are usually a chamber that extends beyond the muzzle of the barrel which catches the gases behind the bullet and directs it upward. It reduces muzzle flip through the force of the gases pushing (forward) against the front wall of the chamber (sealed when the bullet is passing through the hole in it) and venting (upward) out the top.

Compensators attached to the barrel affect the action timing, just as a barrel weight would. One attached to the frame do not. However compensators attached to the barrel are more effective.

The volume of the gas column behind bullet determines the effectiveness of the compensator

TITAN308
May 15, 2012, 04:59 PM
How dare you post useful and valid information.

This is an outrage!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqF6kZUklR77u6ElJ1_-2ujnA5hWn4QFAT9EVaAwEJc6JvB7TI

All though when you say common, I see "barrel weights" referred to as compensators. I don't ever recall someone calling them "barrel weights". Maybe its just my region here.

hentown
May 15, 2012, 07:22 PM
I have a compensator on my Ruger Mark III (just for fun) and on my Springer 1911, the muzzle flash is VERY noticeable during the day. At night in a dark room, it'd be pretty disorienting.


Under what circumstances were you shooting the 1911 in a dark room?

BTW, so far, everybody's mentioned the ports' directing gasses upward, in order to mitigate muzzle flip. True compensators also have expansion chambers that mitigate slide speed. There's no comparison between a ported barrel and a real compensator.

F-111 John
May 15, 2012, 08:34 PM
Even without the mentioned item, there would still be some light "porting action" based merely in the fact that when the bullet exits the barrel all that gas is behind it and my compensator will still direct some of it out the top, even if its designed to work best with an extended barrel. Does that make sense?

Absolutely it does. Not unlike some AK muzzle devices that are not much more than a close bottomed trough.

I like your design.

http://ultimak.com/gallery/lori-2391-AK.jpg

MCgunner
May 15, 2012, 08:41 PM
Anyone here an old enough shotgunner to remember the "Cutts Compensator". It wasn't just weight, it had the gas slots.

I have a machined in compensator on my .30-30 barrel for my Contender pistol, called the "TC Hunter" barrel. It's a 12" barrel. The gas ports work REALLY well with .30-30, very slow powder (IMR3031) and 34 grains of it behind a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. Lots of expanding gas means less recoil. That's how a compensator works. That gun with that load recoils about like a 4" K frame with wadcutters, seriously. It's amazingly effective on that barrel. Auto pistol calibers don't have so much expanding gas to work with, so results vary.

otasan56
May 15, 2012, 08:51 PM
I have one on my SA M1911A1 .45 ACP bowling pin pistol, made by King's Gunworks in Los Angeles.

firesky101
May 15, 2012, 09:42 PM
I run comps on my TTC with both the 7.62x25 barrel and the 9x23 barrel. Not a HD gun, that is my 870. I cannot speak for the 9x23 since I do not have a standard barrel bushing to compare it to, but the 7.62x25 is tamed quite a bit even if it becomes a vertical flame thrower.

Greg528iT
May 15, 2012, 11:06 PM
When would I shoot a 1911 in a dark room? Well, per the OP, a bedside table gun, will most likely be used in the middle of the night ala darkened room.

Luckily I have not had to use my 1911 as such. I HAVE been at my outdoor range at dusk has come upon us. We've stayed a bit longer to practice our low light shooting. I can say the upward flash is quite significant. Iwould find it extra disorienting after having just woken up.

StrikeFire83
May 15, 2012, 11:35 PM
I think they're pretty stupid.

1SOW
May 16, 2012, 12:37 AM
9mmEpiphany +1
Compensators attached to the barrel affect the action timing, just as a barrel weight would. One attached to the frame do not. However compensators attached to the barrel are more effective.

The volume of the gas column behind bullet determines the effectiveness of the compensator

The pistol load has to generate enough gas for the compensator to work/stop muzzle flip.
Reloaders can tailor their loads to make enough gas so the sights don't move after a shot.

If there is a gap between the bbl and the comp.,much ofthe pressurized gas escapes before being deflected up by the comp.

TITAN308
May 22, 2012, 12:44 AM
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6012/001qqz.jpg

Yea so my first attempt at 3D rendering using clay clearly shows I'm not even remotely close to making it look like what I can draw on paper...

Its fun though. Quickly learning that having water nearby is needed and making 90 degree angles is a PITA... lol

Basic shape...
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3461/dscf4941n.jpg

Little more trimming with basic shape...
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/89/dscf4942t.jpg

Starting to make the 90 degree angles to match the slide profile...
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/470/dscf4945.jpg

Toying with artistic lines and three mounting points for the slide rail...
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5840/dscf4950g.jpg

Well it ain't pretty yet, but its fun trying...
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7360/dscf4954e.jpg

bds
May 22, 2012, 02:17 AM
Since we are in the "design" stage, how about a "coupling" compensator?

Not sure how it would be designed but when the slide is in battery, the extended portion of the barrel would "couple" with the frame mounted compensator to seal the high pressure gas to operate/feed the compensator ports/slots/holes. As the slide/barrel travels back, the extended portion of the barrel disengages from the compensator to operate normally for the tilt back of the barrel.

What do you think?

Also, have you considered removable weighted inserts for the compensator base to better "fine tune" the compensator for no rise of front sight shot-to-shot?

Is the large base of compensator designated for laser/light/battery?

9mmepiphany
May 22, 2012, 02:47 AM
The vents atop the compensator look like they are pointing the wrong direction

hentown
May 22, 2012, 07:58 AM
I think they're pretty stupid.

Per my highly-intelligent progenitor, "inanimate objects aren't stupid!"

Whether a ported or compensated barrel exhibits enough flash to be a distraction in low light has much to do with ammo used. Most folks who actually shoot ported or compensated handguns in low light (and not those speculating) find that the "night blindness" mantra is fallacious.

TonyAngel
May 22, 2012, 04:38 PM
As cool as all of this looks, I really don't understand how it's going to work.

If I'm understanding this right, your device will attach to the accessory rail of the pistol and butt up against the barrel of the pistol. What I don't understand is how you are going to get a seal between the expansion chamber of the compensator and the barrel.

Even if the fit between the barrel and the compensator is pretty tight, the action of the pistol is going to begin to cycle as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel and then the seal between the barrel and the comp goes out the window. I'd guess that this would just blow gas back into your face.

The way "real" compensators work is that they force the rapidly expanding gases to slam against the walls of the expansion chambers, thereby negating the effects of recoil. They do not necessarily need to port the gases upward. The gases just need a means of escape from the expansion chambers. The best way for this to happen is to make the comp a part of the barrel. This is usually done by threading the barrel and screwing the comp onto the end, in the case of a semi auto.

TITAN308
May 22, 2012, 05:02 PM
The way "real" compensators work is that they force the rapidly expanding gases to slam against the walls of the expansion chambers, thereby negating the effects of recoil. They do not necessarily need to port the gases upward. The gases just need a means of escape from the expansion chambers. The best way for this to happen is to make the comp a part of the barrel. This is usually done by threading the barrel and screwing the comp onto the end, in the case of a semi auto.

We have already established this is a hybrid compensator / barrel weight (though I mentioned I never heard the term barrel weight used down in my parts).

While not as tight a seal as a classic threaded compensator I'm not quite how slow you think a bullet and the gas behind it are going to go in relations to the slide moving back. I think you under estimate the timing from start to finish. :neener:

But, as stated, its not a true compensator, but more of a hybrid.


Fun with vectoring:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6740/mtcnofont.jpg

TonyAngel
May 22, 2012, 05:06 PM
While not as tight a seal as a classic threaded compensator I'm not quite how slow you think a bullet and the gas behind it are going to go in relations to the slide moving back. I think you under estimate the timing from start to finish.

I don't think that the bullet, or the gas, are moving slow at all. I think that you are underestimating how fast all of this happens.

TITAN308
May 22, 2012, 05:11 PM
I think you are thinking that Im thinking that its of equal potency of a classic muzzle attached unit.

You're turn. :)

9mmepiphany
May 22, 2012, 06:06 PM
Are you thinking of a compensator with chambers for each set to vents or is it just one chamber and the vents are for show?

TITAN308
May 22, 2012, 06:12 PM
The vents are there in the event the user has an extended and ported barrel.

The two options are:

Version A: Ported Ceiling

Version B: Solid Ceiling

My thinking so far is, why not just give them Version A and forgo Version B in the event they upgrade or add on later. Its not hurting anything and still provides some minor gas direction on a standard barrel.

Edit: Can we come to the realization this exists as nothing more than some drawings, vectors and poorly molded clay (so far)? For all I know 30 days from now it will have a care bear engraved on the side and be colored pink. People get so antsy when things are simply being prototyped and act like its a final production unit.

JShirley
May 24, 2012, 02:16 AM
All though when you say common, I see "barrel weights" referred to as compensators.

I've never seen this. Barrel weights are common on match guns, some of which are not suitable for compensators. Some .22LRs, for instance, use barrel weights for stability, but have no need of a compensator. The mission of each is different.

Here (http://www.thegunsource.com/item/33804_Walther_Barrels_Choke_Tubes_WALTHER_P22_EXTRA_BBL_SET_5.aspx) is an example. At first glance, it might appear this is compensated, but there are no ports or expansion chamber. It's just a weight near the end of the barrel.

John

dubya450
May 24, 2012, 02:37 AM
I think having a comp custom made for your use will probably work out well but as for the aftermarket compensated barrels, save your money. I bought one for my glock 36 and wasn't too impressed for $200 so i got rid of it to a buddy for $120.

WardenWolf
May 24, 2012, 03:54 AM
I use a comp on my Tokarev, but other than that, no. The gun doesn't "need" it, but it does help me shoot it more accurately. Between that and the chrome-lined 7.62 barrel I installed, it's a very fine shooter.

otasan56
May 25, 2012, 06:33 PM
I think they're pretty stupid.

I don't. I won a $5000 shootoff with a compensated M1911A1 back in 1990.

The M1911A1 is still with me, but not as a CCW gun. I have a Gen3 G17 for that.

barnbwt
May 25, 2012, 07:38 PM
Ya'know, you could always close off whatever ports you decided to put in to make a "bolt on suppressor/compensator."

The lack of a perfect seal would let a good deal of noise out, but I'll bet it would still be quieter than a plain barrel (let alone a comp), and counter much of the recoil. Heck, that gap might (might) even exempt this product from NFA restrictions. :confused: For those postulating the slight gap present during the pressure spike would allow all the gas to escape out the sides before it could comp, go check out a .500 S&W revolver barrel.

While some gas does escape through the gap, the lion's share goes forward without a loss of velocity. One way to picture it: except for the low-speed (boundary layer) gas up against the chamber walls, the rest is moving too fast (bullet speed) to make the turn out the cylinder gap. That said, I think this comp setup would be most effective on chamberings with lots of slower powder. Think Wildey Magnum cartridges :eek:

At any rate, just set the design up with an adjustable gap, either with a threaded insert opposite the muzzle, or a sliding mount on the weaver rail. For whatever gun in use, just position the comp to where the gap is in the range seen in revolvers, and torque down. You could even make it have adjustable weight/length by stacking multiple compensator blocks together. Much more flexible than a fixed comp milled in a barrel or screw-on suppressor.

BTW, this setup has the very desirable ablilty to be mounted on any gun with a lower rail, and without any other modifications. Not all guns have threaded barrels available. The reciprocating mass also stays the same with an off-barrel setup, so recoil springs may not need changing, rate of fire would stay the same, and reliability would be less affected.

TCB

TITAN308
May 28, 2012, 01:04 AM
Well she ain't perfect, but not bad for a 3D modeler noob...

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1351/dutyandmtccomp.jpg

fennecfrank
May 28, 2012, 03:07 AM
^^^ looks very very nice! great work!

just one suggestion: the compensator has too much empty space below the barrel. might as well as incorporating a flash light and laser.

TITAN308
May 28, 2012, 08:43 AM
That space you a referring to is solid steel.

9mmepiphany
May 28, 2012, 01:33 PM
It occured to me in a discussion at our weekend match that there is something you might look into before investing too much time in this idea. Frame flex.

As the USP has a polymer frame, it's action timing must have taken into account the flex of the frame during recoil. This has been a problem in other polymer frames when the design parameters of the flex are changed through attaching a stiffener (the frame attachment) and adding weight which would affect it's resistance to flexing (inertia)

Most experiments that I have seen over time have attached muzzle and frame dampeners to the metal frame or barrel, where frame flex is more limited

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 10:00 AM
We discovered some other interesting things regarding the CZ Duty when we looked at it more closely; in regards to the barrel tilt when locking back to cycling.

This may not apply to all pistols with the same action, but in the case of the CZ Duty when it cycles (or locks) it actually pulls the barrel back about 1/8 of an inch and then tilts up.

This is great news because the hood gap we designed in is completely unnecessary and we can actually back the compensator up further since this is no longer a concern. There is still a minimal gap to prevent slamming damage of the slide against the compensator, but its much more tighter of a seal (but still not as tight as a threaded compensator).

We also re-designed with V 2.0 more of a "minimalist" factor. Still in the brain storming stages, but we hope to produce a working prototype in the next month or two.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9756/llarmsmtcdutyv21.jpg

There is also a short You Tube video on our website (Area 51) for viewing as well. (I'm at work and You Tube does not work here).

9mmepiphany
May 29, 2012, 11:01 AM
This may not apply to all pistols with the same action, but in the case of the CZ Duty when it cycles (or locks) it actually pulls the barrel back about 1/8 of an inch and then tilts up.
Perhaps you should become more familiar with the operation of the Browning Tilting Barrel action before you start designing parts for pistols based on it ;)

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 11:46 AM
I knew the barrel tilted, but I never had a reason to pay more attention to it. (in regards to drawing back and then tilting)

Maybe you should understand the process and purpose of prototyping/modeling before commenting on it. ;)

Frank Ettin
May 29, 2012, 11:53 AM
Perhaps you should become more familiar with the operation of the Browning Tilting Barrel action before you start designing parts for pistols based on it. +1

This applies to all pistols using the Browning Titling Barrel, locked breech action, which would include the 1911, Browning High Power, CZ75, Glock, SIG P210 and a bunch of others.

The barrel is locked to the slide (by either lugs in the barrel in front of the chamber mating with lugs in the slide in front of the ejection port, like the 1911, or the barrel locking into the ejection port, like the Glock). As the slide moves back under recoil, the barrel moves a short distance with it. The the barrel is tilted down by cam action (or the swinging link of the 1911) to unlock it from the slide. The slide continues its rearward travel to eject the expended case.

This is illustrated in this animation of a Glock firing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1VD1D1hLsQ&feature=related

or these animations of a 1911 firing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMC_gfza6Mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs

...I knew the barrel tilted, but I never had a reason to pay more attention to it. (in regards to drawing back and then tilting)...Yet for some reason, you weren't able to explain it too well.

Maybe you should understand the process and purpose of prototyping/modeling before commenting on it.It's not a question of prototyping/modeling. It's simply a question of understanding how a particular type of handgun design works.

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 12:05 PM
Until we started prototyping/designing I had no reason to pay attention to this minor detail.

Thus while designing, measuring, tinkering, prototyping, etc etc I discovered this little tidbit that was previously over looked.

I mean honestly, out of all the things to nitpick over - this is one weak argument. If you don't like the idea then don't read or waste your time with it, but finding a reason to discredit it by any means is lame. :scrutiny:

Especially when its nothing more than pixels on a screen.

In general I'm pretty tolerant and open to feedback, but these last few posts just smell of disdain for no other reason than just because.

9mmepiphany
May 29, 2012, 02:59 PM
In general I'm pretty tolerant and open to feedback, but these last few posts just smell of disdain for no other reason than just because.
Not disdain at all, just pointing out things that I would have thought obvious before you went too far down the wrong path.

I've been part of designing and prototyping parts for guns and cars and the first thing we always started out with was a clear understanding of the original function, the projected goal and how that goal would be accomplished.

It isn't like you are breaking new ground here, it is interesting to see the process you are going through, however when you make certain assumptions without an apparent clear understanding of the original function, I would think you'd expect them to be pointed out.

It is like someone who thinks it would be a good idea to cut the barrel of a 1911 flush with the bushing, not knowing that a 1911 barrel isn't locked up parallel with the slide or someone designing a sighting system for a handgun without knowing that the barrel rises before the bullet leaves the barrel

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 03:20 PM
Edit: After further thought - not worth the headache to try and reason with someone of this nature.

Would have expected better tact from a staff member, color me unimpressed.

I'll keep chuggin' along with my caveman ideas. Something is only as valuable as someone is willing to pay for it.

God Bless the USA.

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 04:37 PM
This is just my 2 cents to anyone who is doing something you want to do and people dropping negiaive bombs on you.

Remember, in the end there is usually only people that matter who you should be concerned with and the rest can pound sand:

(In a comical turn of irony this showed up in my email box at work a few minutes ago)

Hi Damien,
CZ-USA commented on your photo.
CZ-USA wrote: "Very cool. Good luck with the project. When we were developing our tactical block, we tossed this idea around, but never actually built one. Keep us updated."

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
May 29, 2012, 05:04 PM
Only thing I have to question is your blocky designs, like we see in your .308 project. In my opinion, it's too much, and just looks ugly. But if it woks, awesome. Get the product out there and keep up the good work.


Sent from my MP3/Hands-Free/Web-Browsing Device

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 05:27 PM
No offense taken, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I will say if you look at current production free floats all of them are basically octagon in shape (same as ours), its just less apparent because of the rails and cut outs.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
May 29, 2012, 08:00 PM
Well, it just throws me off because it's too "large" in my opinion. I don't like blocky. Like the Beretta compensators seen on this post, or even like the 1911's with them shown on this post, that's what I find pleasant to look at. I just couldn't stand looking at a brick on the end of my pistol.

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 08:05 PM
Just an idea - its a prototype that has not even been reproduced in physical form yet. There seems to be a (very) common misconception that people seem to equate "prototype" to "retail".


Please don't tell me you think it would really come with wallpaper swirly paint and aerodynamic trash bags....

http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezflow_site/storage_RT_NEW/storage/images/highlights/frontpage/flipper/caught-testing-2013-subaru-coupe/2488172-1-eng-US/caught-testing-2013-subaru-coupe.jpg

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
May 29, 2012, 08:29 PM
LOL Well I'm just expressing an opinion. Like I said, you have my support, go with it! lol

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 09:04 PM
I know, but it seemed like you opinion was based on something that has not even been made yet.

Not that your not welcome to your opinion, but just pointing that out is all. :)

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
May 29, 2012, 09:16 PM
Lol what I meant to say, and should have said in lieu of what I did actually say, was that your initial design is too large and ill-formed to my tastes.

But like I said, I support you fully, despite the way I am currently unattracted to the design. I have gotten some flack for some of my designs, too, for mil-surp rifles (you can see some of them and my ideas in my sig line).

But I'm all for innovation, and the small business ideas, and the next big ideas. From a fellow tinkerer and hobbyist, I hope you don't think I come off as someone high and mighty, because I sure as hell ain't any of them.

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 09:21 PM
No not at all, like I said no offense taken! Just was pointing out an observation! :P

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