Really old Bullseye

Hello Everyone,

A friend recently unloaded about 3 pounds of Bullseye on me, but its real old. Came in an eight pound cardboard keg. Pics below:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/RoughNeck20/20120515_214122.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/RoughNeck20/20120515_214148.jpg


The powder looks good but i don't know for sure how it was stored. I tested about 5 grains of it compared to a fresher batch of Bullseye and it seemed to flare up equally if not more. Think its safe to use/reliable enough for general target practice/competition? Any idea what year its from?

Thanks in advance guys.

looks ok. i'd make sure there are no "clumps" in it and be extra allert for squib loads if you decide to shoot it.

how good of a reloader is your friend? how long did he have the keg? where did he store it (sunlight, next to heater, under the water sprinkler)? (type of questions to ask yourself)

murf

the gentleman who previously owned this powder has since passed and i didn't personally know him. I've been told he was a very meticulous reloader and took very good care of his gear. I'd only assume that it was stored correctly because the powder appears to be in good shape.

Has the recipe for Bullseye remained the same over time? Can i use my current reloading data to load for this powder?

I would start testing it at half the starting load. It looks good. If you have a chrono it will tell you how close it is to being the same as your newer lot.

Aliant has a sample jar of Bullseye in the ballistics lab that's ove 100 years old and it still performs the same as when it was made.

Just follow good loading practice and enjoy the find.

I have about 4 pounds left in a "keg" just like that one that was given to me a few years ago. I'm still shooting it up in my .45 & .38, the chronograph can't tell the difference from some new Bullseye that I had.

It's probably just fine. To be safe, start by reducing your intended load by 10%. (Not by half, as with many BE loads there won't be much left if you do that.) That's a good deal you got. That 3 pounds will make up, for example, 7500 rounds of .38 Spl. using 148 gr. wadcutters over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. That'll hold you for a while.

That aint 'old'...

THIS is 'old'...

http://i49.tinypic.com/359heuc.jpg

Just finished loading some .44 Mag 'plinking' loads with this old stuff...It does not look like 'Modern' Red Dot, as it is a true 'Flake' powder...The 'Newer' stuff is flat and has a hole in it, whereas the older stuff is shaped like pieces of popcorn hull (has a curve) and no hole...

I have chrony'ed the same charges in .38 Special (3.3gr), and .357 Magnum (5.0gr), and the velocities are statistically identical between old and 'newer' cannisters...

It's probably just fine. To be safe, start by reducing your intended load by 10%. (Not by half, as with many BE loads there won't be much left if you do that.) That's a good deal you got. That 3 pounds will make up, for example, 7500 rounds of .38 Spl. using 148 gr. wadcutters over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. That'll hold you for a while.
Here is the thing. It is open powder that he thinks is Bullseye. It is possible that it is unstable. If the intended load is around max say 5gn reducing to 4.5gn isn't going to help much. I work with unknown powders some. It is always better to use to little then to much. Since it is Bullseye it is allready very fast is the reason I don't suggest lowering it more. Half will still get the bullet out. It shouldn't cycle the slide if it is a pistol.

My advice did not need corrected but thanks for the input.

Here is the thing. It is open powder that he thinks is Bullseye. It is possible that it is unstable. If the intended load is around max say 5gn reducing to 4.5gn isn't going to help much. I work with unknown powders some. It is always better to use to little then to much. Since it is Bullseye it is allready very fast is the reason I don't suggest lowering it more. Half will still get the bullet out. It shouldn't cycle the slide if it is a pistol.

My advice did not need corrected but thanks for the input.


I think the point is that since bullseye is so fast, there isnt going to be much faster than it. So if you reduce a starting charge by 10%, even if it is faster, its not going to be a problem, why go so low as 50%? If anything it will probably be a slower powder, not faster. I see no reason to reduce the starting load by more than 10%.

I guess I see no point in taking a chance in blowing up a gun. Had a 380 cartridge pop out about quarter of a inch at the ramp with fresh BE at 1.8gn well below max maybe below most peoples start. It was a known powder but a unknown chamber. If you see many of my post I'm not the one that is afraid of everything. I don't yell danger danger all the time. I like to believe that I have good reasoning skills. I like to know the variables. I also have powder that makes Bullseye seem slow. I've never dealt with bad powder but doesn't it get faster if the solvents evaporate?

Your gun do as you want but I don't mind pulling the slide back a couple times until I know the pockets for the primers are tight & everything is good to go up a little bit.

Looks to me like an 80's or 90's can.

Shoot it up.

Ditto on the 80s or 90s. In fact I just finished (last year) a can of Bullseye with the same labeling, but it was a one pounder.

Salmoneye's Red Dot is indeed ancient.

I appreciate all of the input. I will try my usual load of 4.3gr under a 230gr LRN and see if i get the usual 720fps out of my sig sauer p220. Thats my IDPA competition load and thats what i'll most likely be doing with this powder (just breaks the PF for CDP).

Thanks again guys.

I have a 4# canister of Unique I opened and used a little out of about 1971. It is in the same type and size container as yours. It has been stored in numerous places and conditions since then.
A couple of years ago I decided to try some of it and compare to a relatively new pound can. I loaded about a dozen rounds of 41 Mag with it. I single loaded a round at a time in my Ruger Redhawk. All fired fine and could not feel any difference from the newer.
I posed questions and read threads on several forums before I used it. General concensus was that if there was any change it would lose strength.

---

That is true, that smokeless powder will generally "lose power" when it gets really old and degraded. High explosives and rocket/missile propellants on the other hand generally get more punch or thrust as they age. (Many jokes created on this subject!) Many guided missiles are closely tracked as they age to ensure performance stays within parameters.

I'm with Salmoneye, not that old it's got barcode on it. I've got numerous cans of various powder pre barcode, still good.

Starting at "half the starting load" would be potentially a very bad idea. If the powder smells right and looks right, it's most likely just fine. Starting at half the recommended starting load would likely create a dangerous pressure curve due to the very low volume of air to propellant in the case. Start at the minimum and work up. FYI, I have much older Bullseye powder I'm working with. Shoots fine!

Shoot it! It's not that old. I have some WIN500HS that was dropped off at the local PD in my town. It is from the 50s-60s. Well I tested the burn on it (4th of July, in a coffee can) and it passed the smell test. I found data (close to HS5) online and use a reduced charge for .38 ammo. Shoots just fine. Dirty, but shoots good.

Meta
You won't cause a dangerous curve by dropping the pressure. If it is slower then BE you might stick a bullet at worse. I would rather nock a bullet out then blow up a gun. My concern would be more that it isn't BE since it is a open container. If it is BE it won't have any problem getting the bullet out of the barrel. It won't function the slide. I have used 2.7gn BE in a 38 spl & they have much more air space then most cartridges.

Can't be to old if it has a zip code on the address on the label.

Being old is a subjective term.

Salmoneye, I have some Green Dot from a can like that. Shoots just fine.

If you are nervous about using it, you can send it to me and I will work with it. LOL

Eric

Actually, going significantly below the minimum powder charge on any cartridge is generally bad advice. While going somewhat below minimum in this case, with this powder, is only likely to stick a bullet in the barrel, with some loads, in some cases, the results of going well below minimum can be a blown up gun. Drop a load by 50% in a rifle cartridge and I won't be near you when you shoot it.

Meta

Which powder to you have proof of blowing up a gun?

I stick bullets in a rifle all the time just to see where that point is. I would just as soon you not be beside me when I'm shooting.

Actually, going significantly below the minimum powder charge on any cartridge is generally bad advice. While going somewhat below minimum in this case, with this powder, is only likely to stick a bullet in the barrel, with some loads, in some cases, the results of going well below minimum can be a blown up gun. Drop a load by 50% in a rifle cartridge and I won't be near you when you shoot it.

Can you please show us any study that has been able to produce what many people have come to call 'Detonation' due to low density charges?

As far as I have been able to find, no powder company or independent test lab, has been able to confirm this alleged phenomenon...

As far as I have been able to find, no powder company or independent test lab, has been able to confirm this alleged phenomenon...

Im willing to bet that with most of the people that claim detonation happened to them, it was really an overcharge or double charge.

Im willing to bet that with most of the people that claim detonation happened to them, it was really an overcharge or double charge.

Very possibly true, so far no one has been able to duplicate a detonation in the lab.

With that said I'm not about to test my luck with a light charge of slow burning powder in a rifle cartridge.

I'm also the guy that would have the donkey die of a heart attack while going down the narrow trail to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

I believe that some of the 'detonation' stories alleged to be due to light charges of slow powders are really a squib with lodged bullet, and then a subsequent round fired...

not that old -1990,s

I was given some Bullseye( 5 different 1 lb cans going back to the 50's) from an estate. I chrono'd them all before using with my standard .38 spl load of 4.2/bullseye/ 158 rn (max std pressure .38 spl load in Lyman cast bullet handbook) and the results are on each can. Actually the oldest can from the 50's(1st on the left) was almost identical to the new 2009 keg on the right! They were all very uniform with the exception of one can from the 80's at 842 fps but even that was pretty much in the ballpark. I have since used it all up without a problem one! Data shown was all 10 shot strings with Hi, Lo, ES, and SD. I wouldn't worry a bit about your keg.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll80/fecmech/P9210340.jpg

Which is one of the best reasons to stick with Alliant powders...consistency over time.

Dang -some nice "old Powder Tins" in that collection fecmech! MY wife was worried when I found my alliant BE from the 70's and started reloading again. Along with some old W540. Both are working well in her new 9mm M&P9c.

Which is one of the best reasons to stick with Alliant powders...consistency over time.

I do love alliant powders, no doubt about that. The only straying I do from alliant in handgun is AA#2 and rifle is H335.

@fecmech

Many thanks for that study you did!

I have been in 'conversations' with people who have 'scolded' me for relaying data with 2400 from older Ideal/Lyman manuals...

It has been a rumor for a while now that 2400 was 'reformulated', and that the newer stuff was hotter than that available to Keith, Skelton, et al...All this in spite of people at Alliant on record denying any change other than lot to lot variations...

Your picture and tests are a great comfort to me...

@fecmech

Many thanks for that study you did!

I have been in 'conversations' with people who have 'scolded' me for relaying data with 2400 from older Ideal/Lyman manuals...

It has been a rumor for a while now that 2400 was 'reformulated', and that the newer stuff was hotter than that available to Keith, Skelton, et al...All this in spite of people at Alliant on record denying any change other than lot to lot variations...

Your picture and tests are a great comfort to me...
The 2400 was done with the classic 13.5/2400/358429"Keith")loaded to an OAL of 1.638" which is taper crimped about 1/3 of the way up on the front drive band. To those who say that is not enough crimp, it is imo. I've shot taper vs roll crimp and got identical ballistics. Bullet pull (case size to bullet size) is whats important and that's determined by your sizer and expander diameter.

I purchased a bunch of "old" powder a few years back. Various types and brands. I contacted each of the manufacturers and those that responded basically said the same thing, smell the powder. If it smells sour, it's bad. It should smell "sweet".

What I did was to smell some known new powder, then the old stuff. Did not find any that had a sour odor. And I'm still using it. This stuff stays viable for a long time !

Good luck.

I actually just threw away the big cardboard keg on some Bullseye I bought in 1981. The powder was good until the last pop. It takes a whole bunch of 2.7 loads to shoot up 15 pounds. ;)

Greg

I''ll say.

38,888 rounds!

That can of Bullseye on the far left is from the 50's? I have one like it and one with the black bullseye. Also have 2 of the older 2400 cans pictured too. I loaded some antique Bullseye, Red dot, and Unique in some .38 special loads with good results. I think all of my antique powders will be used for plinking loads.

I also have 3 cardboard cans of H335 I need to shoot up. I used one up on a batch of .223 with good results.

I''ll say.

38,888 rounds!
In 1981 I started shooting PPC. I shot 21,000 rounds in 21 days. I put a dent in it then!! LOL

Greg

Does it smell OK (solvent like, rather than musty)?
Does it look OK (no clumping or red dust)?
Does it feel OK (normal for Bullseye, doesn't disintegrate when rolled between the fingers)?
If the answer to all of the above is yes, shoot it.
How much I would reduce the load would depend on caliber.
If available, I would prefer to test in a round/weapon rated for higher pressure, like a 9mm, .357 Magnum or .357 SIG rather than a low pressure round like .45 ACP. This will allow you to drop your load to a lower level with greater safety.
I would use a cast or swaged lead bullet for my testing. If you stick one, they're a lot easier to drive out.
I'd use a Ransom rest or homemade substitute if available, if not I'd hold the weapon behind a stout tree while I fired the first few rounds, checking the bore between each shot.
Better safe than sorry.
Swampman

PS- I regularly use Bullseye that's older than that, but I know how it was stored and I know that it IS, in fact, Bullseye...