Poll: Most Reliable .45 acp Out of the Box?


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Chumango
February 18, 2004, 06:44 PM
I am considering a defensive/possibly carry gun. Since I am relatively new to hand guns, and could spend months reading the forums (I have already spent a lot of time), I thought I would ask this question to speed the process.

What is the most reliable .45 acp OUT OF THE BOX? I’m not interested in how good you can get a gun with enough trips to the gunsmith.

By reliable I mean, it goes bang when you pull the trigger. No feed or ejection problems.

For my purposes this is the most important factor. After narrowing the field I can then check other aspects such as ergonomics, accuracy, etc.

List your most reliable, and if you have enough good ones, your top few.

I am relatively new to handguns, and have only one data point. So I will start with the one I know.

S&W 457, 100% reliable so far, but I have only put about 400 rounds through it, of various FMJ, JHP, and hand loads.

Thanks for your input.

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49hudson
February 18, 2004, 06:57 PM
Glock

Sarge
February 18, 2004, 07:02 PM
whick takes in lotsa Colts, clones, clowns, S&W's etc-

SIG 220

Hero
February 18, 2004, 07:03 PM
I have had 100% reliability with the two SIG 220s that I own, 220 and 220ST. So a big vote for the P220 series from me.

Also, I own a HK USP45f that has been 100%, and have owned a USP tactical and 2 compact USP 45s that were all perfect. I have owned a total of 6 USPs total and was never able to muster a malfuntion out of a single one of them. So a big vote for the USP 45s from me also.

Also, I own a Glock 21. It does not fit me quite like the previous two do, but it has been 100% as well.

HSMITH
February 18, 2004, 07:05 PM
Smith & Wesson Model 25 or 625, bar none. Nothing else will even be close.

greyhound
February 18, 2004, 07:07 PM
Ruger P series usually get points for being solid as rocks, and some negatives for looks and feel.

I like my P97, its been reliable - I do get the occaisional FTE when I am up over 250 rounds in one session, but I think its a dirty extractor that causes that, and I can't think of a SD situation calling for 200+ rounds (good grief I hope not!).

jem375
February 18, 2004, 07:27 PM
compact or full size??????????

PO2Hammer
February 18, 2004, 07:40 PM
In my experience:
HK USP-never a stutter
Glock 21- problems with 10 rounds in a mag-wouldn't feed the first one, with 9 or less-100%
Kimber-wouldn't feed hollowpoints.

TarpleyG
February 18, 2004, 07:41 PM
I just bought a Kimber Custom TLE and haven't had a single hiccup in two range trips with Wilson and CMC mags using ball and JHP rounds. Others will claim otherwise. I think a lot of it is the shooter and some of it just dumb luck.

GT

Ala Dan
February 18, 2004, 07:41 PM
With all due respect to what HSMITH posted; I
have had ZERO problems with my West German
proofed SIG-SAUER .45 caliber P220A. The word
RELIABILITY is synonymous with the SIG P220!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Boats
February 18, 2004, 07:49 PM
I second the S&W 625. No feeding issues. No ejection issues. Will likely go bang every time the trigger is pulled.

Sean Smith
February 18, 2004, 07:59 PM
Since this is in "General Discussion," a S&W .45 ACP revolver.

Otherwise, probably a SigSauer P220.

That said, my most reliable .45 ACP (or any other caliber, for that matter) was a Colt Government Model. NEVER malfunctioned for 1,000s of rounds. Sold it to fund a custom Delta Elite that has performed likewise.

Range Ninja
February 18, 2004, 08:13 PM
I've got a Sprinfield Mil-Spec with just over 2,000 rds. and no problems.:D

Marko Kloos
February 18, 2004, 08:15 PM
The most reliable handguns out of the box in .45ACP are probably the Glock 21, Glock 30, and SIG P220.

tc300mag1
February 18, 2004, 08:20 PM
Hk Usp
Ruger P-90

Never anyprobs with either

RikWriter
February 18, 2004, 08:24 PM
You won't go wrong with almost any major brand 45. I've owned 45s from every major manufacturer and it would be easier to tell you the ones I HAVE had problems with than the ones I have not.
Colt, Kimber, Springfield, Para Ordnance, SIG, Glock, HK, Smith, Ruger---you won't go wrong with any of them.

gbelleh
February 18, 2004, 08:32 PM
My HK USP has been flawless.
I would also be confident in a Sig 220 out of the box.
Based on my personal experience, 1911s can be fussy. I also had a brand new .45 Glock break apart in my hands during its first 100 rounds.

DakotaSig
February 18, 2004, 09:57 PM
SIG P220ST
over 4,000 rounds through mine and not a single problem.

Intune
February 18, 2004, 10:03 PM
Another vote for Sig 220.

rick_reno
February 18, 2004, 11:17 PM
In 45 acp I've got Glock (21), Sig (220 and 245), Colt (Series 70, 1991, Commander), H&K (USPc) and Kimber (Series 1 Gold Match). The only that has never had a problem is the H&K. Next in line is the Sig P220. The most accurate is the Kimber GM, it's also very tight and will run good with precise loads. The H&K and the SIG will digest anything, I use the SIG to shoot rounds that won't chamber in the Kimber - so I can reclaim the brass.

Tamara
February 18, 2004, 11:27 PM
S&W 625.

I have never had a feeding, extraction, or ejection issue with one of these fine .45 ACP handguns, and they've always gone *BANG!* whenever I pulled the trigger. ;)

Preacherman
February 18, 2004, 11:35 PM
Pistol - SIG P220. Revolver - S&W 625. I rest my case.

Black Majik
February 18, 2004, 11:38 PM
Sig P220.

And although I might get a few flames for this, I'm gonna add the NRM Colt Government in there. The quality of Colts are great and my Government has been damn reliable! You can check also on the Colt forum in 1911forum.com if you dont believe me. Lots of research landed me a NRM Colt Government as my first gun. I'm glad I did ;)

Pylon
February 19, 2004, 02:48 AM
Sig P220, or Glock

Majic
February 19, 2004, 05:54 AM
S&W 25/625
Ruger Blackhawk
Dan Wesson 460/7460

jercamp45
February 19, 2004, 06:15 AM
My Old Colt has been very reliable out of the box, BUT...
Think a SIG P220/245 would do very nice.
The revolvers mentioned above would too if you can hadle the overall size of them.
Glocks have a good rep, but I had a G30 that was very picky in ammo choice.
My cousin likes his three versions of the USP which he said he has never had a jam with the series.
'Spose, if IT had to work out of the box(no time for testing) and I could not have my Colt, I'd grab a SIG(If I somehow had a choice!). If the SIG GSR works well in reviews THAT might be my preference!!
Jercamp45

rage
February 19, 2004, 06:58 AM
G30

rappa
February 19, 2004, 07:12 AM
P220, Glock 30

tlhelmer
February 19, 2004, 07:44 AM
I recently purchased a Kimber 1911 Custom TLE-RL that functioned flawlessly out of the box.:D

Yes, a 1911 that is 100% reliable!:what:

Chumango
February 19, 2004, 07:49 AM
It looks like so far the front runners are the SIG P220 and the HK USP. At my next opportunity I will check both of them.

I had also considered a revolver (no feed problems), in which case the S&W 625 and the Taurus Tracker would be the candidates. In fact, a friend purchased the Tracker last week, and we plan on going to the range and I will see how I like it. The only drawback is the long trigger pull. It would also work better for the wife, easier to operate than an auto, and the ported barrel would help with control.

caz223
February 19, 2004, 08:15 AM
Make sure that you also check out the USP compact, my compact .45 has been perfect in every way.

Lobotomy Boy
February 19, 2004, 08:49 AM
I've run hundreds of rounds through a Glock 21C in a single session without a single failure of any type. That is the only .45 with which I have any recent experience, and I'm sure there are other good choices out there, but based on that experience my next autoloader will be a Glock 30 for CCW.

SnWnMe
February 19, 2004, 09:32 AM
625, Kimber PCHDII, SW PC945
My experiences.

P0832177
February 19, 2004, 10:33 AM
I think for easy of carry bar none, HK USP in 45ACP. It goes bang! No modifications needed. I have to say if it were going to be a wheelgun a 625 would be the answer!

manyironsinfire
February 19, 2004, 10:35 AM
Even though the USP'S are boxy, The compact version would top my list because of the controls(double/single or single action)cocked and locked, 10 and 1 rds,total reliablity! The SIG 220 a close second double only with 8 plus 1 rds... Both very easy to field strip and veeeeeery accurate...:D

bradvanhorn
February 19, 2004, 11:50 AM
I agree with Preacherman: pistol - Sig P220, revolver - S&W 625.

fix
February 19, 2004, 11:57 AM
If you want a revolver, I'd just skip right over 45ACP and move to .357 Magnum. If you want an auto, much as I favor a 1911, the Glock is ready to go out of the box every time.

Gun Runners Alaska
February 19, 2004, 12:50 PM
I'd have to agree with HSMITH "Smith & Wesson Model 25 or 625, bar none. Nothing else will even be close." :D

HankB
February 19, 2004, 01:06 PM
Can't argue with an M25/M625 S&W.

Interesting to see how FEW votes there are for 1911s . . . Jeff Cooper would not be pleased. :neener:

I DO have a Les Baer 1911 that I bought slightly used . . . I had a few failures to lock the slide back on the last shot with one particular magazine, but other than that, it's been 100%, though I only have a few thousand rounds through it so far.

smithandwesson
February 19, 2004, 01:15 PM
Smith & Wesson: Model of 1917, 25, 625 or the new 325PD:cool:

Colt: Model of 1917:cool:

Ruger: Blackhawk .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertable:cool:

No feeding or extraction issues to worry about with any of these fine firearms.:cool: As long as the ammunition is of decent quality any of these .45 ACP revolvers will do the job.:D

foghornl
February 19, 2004, 02:09 PM
Only problems I have had with both of my .45ACP's

American Ammo (Also known as A-merc) stove-piped in both my KP-90 Ruger & Springy Champion 1911.

One fail-to-feed with Rem "UMC" brand on round 99 of 100 in KP-90.

Both have gone over 1,500 rounds each with only those issues noted.

cratz2
February 19, 2004, 04:45 PM
Among semi-auto pistols, I'd probably put my money on the 220 as well with the G21 and G30 also being right there.

I think as far as reliability goes, only FMJ should be considered when it comes to 1911s. I've owned at least four, maybe five 1911s (from Colt, Springfield and Springfield) that never ever had one single failure from the very first shot. I've probably owned another 15 beyond those four or five that had less than ten failures out of the first 1,000 shots and without looking back at past reviews I've done, I'd imagine a large percentage of those failures were 200 Gr +P Gold Dots or other non standard pressure 230 Gr HPs. And I've owned one that was truly a problem child. It was a early 90s 1991A1 that was bought used so for all I know, it was a serious problem before I bought it.

RWK
February 19, 2004, 05:11 PM
Based on my ownership and use:
a) Flawlessly reliable
> S&W 625
> Sig P220
b) Outstanding reliability
> Glock 36
> Springfield TRP (flawless after break-in)
c) Excellent reliability
> Springfield Loaded (outstanding after break-in)
> Kimber I Custom/Classic
d) Good Reliability
> H&K USP Tactical

My H&K USP Tactical is the ONLY .45 ACP I own that I would nor consider “bet your life on it” reliable.

Chip Dixon
February 19, 2004, 06:33 PM
Basically, if you're going to buy a NIB gun from a major manufacturer, that's a classic example of a crap shoot. You won't know if your gun is a keeper until you go through breaking it in. All manufacturers, without exception, have "lemons" from the factory on their mass produced guns. You have no guarantee that all the parts are 100%, nor that a skilled gunsmith put the gun together. So if you're not up to the task of gunsmithing, nor want to soup the gun up, (as I assume you're not, by the "out of the box" statement) go to a gunshop that will take care of you if the gun isn't 100%. Beware, some manufacturers can take many many months to get your gun back to you if it needs work and you have to send it to them. Either way, take the gun to the range right when you get it and make sure it is 100%.

The only way to buy the "most reliable" .45 is to have someone sell you one of their .45s that has a lot of ammo through it with no malfunctions. And most people don't sell those guns, they sell the finicky ones.
Just make sure to take your gun apart and clean it before you use it. I've know some people to complain that their gun jams, and then I find out they've never cleaned and oiled it yet. Guns often have stuff on them to keep them from rusting that needs to be removed for reliable operation straight from the factory. And a little lube can go a long way towards reliablity.

If you're considering a 1911-A1, (which is a good choice) get a full-size barrel. I've never had any problems with my SA Mil-spec, and it conceals well in a good IWB.

I've heard nightmares from the micro compact 1911 owners, though.

Revolvers are the usual sure bet for reliability, but I'd rather have a .357 mag than a .45 acp revolver, for the most part. I'd say a 1911-A1 with a .357 mag as a backup gun (BUG) is a safe bet. Just shoot a thousand or so rounds through the 1911 before you bet your life on it. Don't use cheap mags, either. With Chip McCormick PowerMags, I know mine will go pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop, every time. I've never had any ammo feed issues, but then again I use S&B FMJ, Corbon Powerball, and Winchester JHP/FMJ ammo in my 1911-A1.. quality ammunition. I also keep my feed ramp clean. If your gun isn't a lemon, reliability is in attention to the details.. like keeping your wrist stiff, mags, and ammo choice.

Good luck, and have fun gun shopping!

Jarrod Hartsfield
February 19, 2004, 09:46 PM
Charles Daly 1911.

My buddy has one, bought it for competition, evolved into his duty gun.

dairycreek
February 19, 2004, 09:53 PM
All three were NIB and have performed flawlessly over the years that I have had them. They are SIG 220, SIG 220ST, and a Glock 30. FWIW. Good shooting;)

Lobotomy Boy
February 19, 2004, 09:55 PM
The Charles Daly guns seem reasonably priced for a 1911. That 9mm HP also seemed reasonable, if the quality and reliability are high. I'll have to look into these.

Neal Bloom
February 19, 2004, 10:08 PM
SIG P220.

45R
February 19, 2004, 10:54 PM
Duh!!! that would be the Sig 220ST

cratz2
February 20, 2004, 10:47 AM
I've shot an awful lot of 1911s. I have nothing against the Daly guns, but if I were a bettin' man (which I ain't) I wouldn't bet on 100 Dalys having the same first 100 rounds out of the box reliability as the SIG 220 or a Glock 21.

Rebeldon
February 20, 2004, 12:02 PM
The most reliable "out of the box" .45 is hard to choose. From prejudice, I'll say the SIG P220. I don't have any proof. Certainly, the Glock models are very reliable too.

Rinspeed
February 20, 2004, 12:36 PM
I would also have to say the 220 with the USP a close second.

Rinspeed

12-34hom
February 20, 2004, 03:46 PM
Personal experience = H&K USP - Variant #1.

12-34hom.

Knives
February 20, 2004, 03:53 PM
All three of my handguns have done wonderfully straight out of the box. I've got a Kimber Classic Custom, a Glock 30, and a Springfield Mil Spec. My only complaint is that the Glock will occasionally throw brass right back in my face.

Badger Arms
February 20, 2004, 04:37 PM
Glock 21 and Ruger P97. Don't have experience with that much else, but these guns are pictured in Websters next to the word 'reliable.' :)

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 06:19 PM
Notice how many USPs are listed here. Then go look how many people said it was "overrated" in another thread. Hilarious. Notice the clear shortage of 1911s here--despite them being just as reliable as other autoloaders:D :D :D .


Probably a co-inky-dink:scrutiny:

:neener:

Tactical
February 20, 2004, 07:01 PM
HK USP Compact

I love it.

RikWriter
February 20, 2004, 08:07 PM
Notice how many USPs are listed here. Then go look how many people said it was "overrated" in another thread. Hilarious. Notice the clear shortage of 1911s here--despite them being just as reliable as other autoloaders .


Probably a co-inky-dink


More likely people who've bought into the internet BS about the 1911 being unreliable.

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 08:13 PM
Yeah, nobody had heard of such a thing before the net :rolleyes:

Hawk
February 20, 2004, 08:13 PM
Of the ones that I actually own -

Stone reliable:
Kimber Eclipse II
Glock 21
STI Ranger
Ruger KP97D
Springfield "loaded" full size

I don't own a Sig 220 or HK USP, so lack of mention should not be taken as a negative.

357SIG
February 20, 2004, 08:15 PM
My SIG P220ST and HK USP .45 were both 100% out-of-the-box reliable. You can't go wrong with either of them.

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 08:18 PM
the answer is...Sig 220.


Although I do have a 45 USP compact and it is quite nice. :)

Jeff
February 20, 2004, 08:35 PM
HK USPf

When you pull the trigger you know it will go Bang as much as letting go of an object and knowing it will fall.

charleym3
February 20, 2004, 08:59 PM
I've had a lot of 45s. Glock 21s, 1911s by many, sig-220s, S&W 625s. The only one that has been absolutely reliable is the S&W 625s. All of them.

JeepDriver
February 20, 2004, 09:01 PM
Yet another Vote for the Sig 220

And since no one has posted it yet, there was a 10,000 round test done by Shooting Times on a NIB 220. They fired 10,000 rounds in 1 day.

Read it here at Gallery of Guns (http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230)

Marshall
February 20, 2004, 09:12 PM
Well, I think everyone has pretty much nailed it on the head with the Sig and HK USP. I will just add that if total, stone cold reliability is your chief concern in a .45 ACP, one in the following revolver porn shots from S&W are going to be your best bet.

http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/160935_large.jpg

http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/170226_large.jpg

http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/163415_large.jpg

With that said, this S&W PC 357 Mag. would have my name on it. Altough, I do like that .45 stainless stubby! Hmmm, might be my next purchase. LOL

http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/170210_large.jpg

;)

Jeff
February 20, 2004, 09:31 PM
I'm just not keen on wasting a large frame revolver on a relatively low-powered round like the .45 acp. I don't get the point. Especially when you consider those moon clips into part of the equation.

And what's the muzzle velocity on a snubby wheelgun .45? 300fps?

RikWriter
February 20, 2004, 09:51 PM
Yeah, nobody had heard of such a thing before the net

I was involved in the firearms scene well before the internet became prominent, and I never heard anyone describe the 1911 as an unreliable gun. So yes, I would say that most people didn't consider it so before the net.

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 09:57 PM
RikWriter,

Come on!:)

denfoote
February 20, 2004, 10:11 PM
For me, it's a toss up between my Ruger P97 and Springfield Loaded! :D

Tamara
February 20, 2004, 10:46 PM
Notice how many USPs are listed here. Then go look how many people said it was "overrated" in another thread. Hilarious. Notice the clear shortage of 1911s here--despite them being just as reliable as other autoloaders .

So, are you deliberately perpetuating a false analogy, or are you really, really uninformed about firearms?

"USP" means a gun, made to a design, from one company. (...and yes, they're super reliable, albeit with junky triggers, cheap injection molded frames, tolerable accuracy, indifferent fit and finish, and price tags that compare unfavorably with imported sin.)

"1911" means a design, ranging from cast pot metal junk from the third world, through current mass-market domestic fare, through old-fashioned tool-steel milspec guns, to custom guns just short of flawless.

The 1911 on my hip is more durable, more reliable, more accurate, and better fitted and finished than any pistol HK has ever sold to the public; a Charles Daly is junk. Which 1911 are you comparing the USP to?


:rolleyes:

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 11:06 PM
Tamara,

"So, are you deliberately perpetuating a false analogy, or are you really, really uninformed about firearms?"

Sooo sensitive:p

Tamara, I have no reason to disbelieve that the 1911 on your hip is more durable, more reliable, more accurate, and better fitted and finished than any pistol HK has ever sold to the public.;) But, as you know (and I'm not going to ask the silly "are you really uninformed about firearms" rhetorical question) most 1911s are not.

My point was straightfoward. Some folks make the false claim that 1911s (and by that I always presumed they meant the average 1911) are as reliable other autoloaders like SIGs, H&Ks, Glocks, etc. Obviously, this hasn't been the experience of those responding to this thread. However, if they really meant that some perfect, custom-tuned, hyperexpensive 1911s can be as reliable as a SIG, H&K or Glock, then I stand corrected.:D

Sheesh, soft spot!

:D :D

Jeff
February 20, 2004, 11:13 PM
"USP" means a gun, made to a design, from one company. (...and yes, they're super reliable, albeit with junky triggers, cheap injection molded frames, tolerable accuracy, indifferent fit and finish, and price tags that compare unfavorably with imported sin.)

Super reliable, yup. Junky triggers? Not quite. The single action trigger is decent. Not great, but certainly not junky . Cheap, injection molded frames? What do you mean by cheap? The technology, design, and R&D that went into those frames are far from cheap. The performance of those frames is even further from cheap. Tolerable accuracy? The USPs are well-regarded as having very decent out of the box accuracy, including mine. Indifferent fit & finish? Not sure what you mean by that. Price tags...? Why, because you don't like them and think they are over-priced? I'd say for the amount of performance and reliability and DURABILITY (ie lifespan) you get in a USP, they compare favorably with ANY handgun at any reasonable price-point. :rolleyes:

"1911" means a design, ranging from cast pot metal junk from the third world, through current mass-market domestic fare, through old-fashioned tool-steel milspec guns, to custom guns just short of flawless.

It's funny how you 1911 shooters like to say-- rather generically-- how great your "1911" or "1911 platform" or "1911-whatever" guns are as compared to the "cheap," "plastic" polymer ones, with no indication of quality ranges; and now during this argument, need to emphasize there are indeed many different levels of quality based on various manufacturers.

The 1911 on my hip is more durable, more reliable, more accurate, and better fitted and finished than any pistol HK has ever sold to the public;

It's probably more accurate and has finer fit & finish, but more reliable and durable? That sounds like an inflated claim, especially since you've chosen to include "any pistol HK has ever sold to the public" in your analysis.

Tamara
February 20, 2004, 11:39 PM
Junky triggers? Not quite. The single action trigger is decent. Not great, but certainly not junky .

I've owned one and shot a few dozen. Sold a couple of hundred more. The triggers on them were all junky. The only way you could say they weren't junky is if you didn't know what a good trigger felt like.

Cheap, injection molded frames? What do you mean by cheap?
I mean that plastic squirted into a mold is a cheap way to make frames, even if Hans und Franz popped the finished product out of its injection mold with their highly-trained precision teutonic hands.

Normally injection molding is done to make manufacturing cheaper, yet apparently it costs more for HK to injection mold a frame than for other companies to mill one out of raw carbon steel forgings. Go figure... :rolleyes:

Tolerable accuracy? The USPs are well-regarded as having very decent out of the box accuracy, including mine.
I guess if "decent" accuracy is good enough for you, then you'll be right happy.

Indifferent fit & finish? Not sure what you mean by that.

I mean that the gun exhibits indifferent levels of fit and finish. To wit: tool marks, flash-molding lines, stamped sheet metal bits, et cetera.

Price tags...? Why, because you don't like them and think they are over-priced? I'd say for the amount of performance and reliability and DURABILITY (ie lifespan) you get in a USP, they compare favorably with ANY handgun at any reasonable price-point.

As far as "lifespan" goes, the 105 year-old revolver I shot in the back yard yesterday has it all over any gun made of stampings and dinosaur juice. As far as reasonable durability goes, I'll take tool steel over plastic any day. There are plenty of WWII relics out there still shooting with all their original parts in them. Hell, there are plenty of guns older than that still shooting with all their original parts in them.

I can understand needing to take manufacturing shortcuts in the modern labor and materials environment to turn out a reasonably affordable handgun that will be durable and reliable over a reasonable service life, but a USP Expert, SIG GSR, and a Les Baer Concept I all cost within a few bills of each other: 100 years from now, two will still be shootable and one will be recycled into milk crates...



I ain't some fankid touting my favorite brand. HK, Glock, Beretta, SIG, Kimber, Springfield, Colt, S&W, et cetera, ad nauseum, I've owned a lot of 'em over the past two decades. Most of 'em are fine pistols; I just get ill when someone starts off with the ol' Errornet cliches:

"SIGs are rustbuckets!"
"Glocks blow up!"
"1911's jam!"
"USP's break firing pins!"
"1911's are the best!"
"Glock perfection!
"HK means No Compromise!" (Hint: Us P7 fans refer to the USP as the Universal Sellout Pistol. :uhoh: )
Yadda, yadda, yadda.


They all suck, and they all rule. Get it?

Greg Bell
February 20, 2004, 11:51 PM
"They all suck, and they all rule. Get it?"


I know, we are all just ignoramuses who don't understand. We are uniformed fankids. Please, be patient. :D :D :D

See, Tamara, you will have to forgive us. Not all of us have the perspective of someone who has, on their hip, a 1911 that is durable, more reliable, more accurate, and better fitted and finished than any pistol HK has ever sold to the public. ;)

One day...we can dream can't we?:p :p

Tamara
February 20, 2004, 11:53 PM
I'm sure there's a point to that post looming out there on the horizon someplace.

Did you have more facts or experiences to contribute?

boogalou
February 21, 2004, 12:13 AM
Why does it have to be out of the box? There are some great used .45's out there. Anybody want to take a guess?

What did you say? You want reliable? How about an endorsement from the United States Government. It even says so on the slide! :D

Greg Bell
February 21, 2004, 12:15 AM
Tamara,

What can I say. I can't argue with logic like:

My 1911 is better than every gun H&K ever made! :D

A 1911 CAN be made as reliable as a SIG, Glock or H&K. Therefore it is uninformed to say that 1911s are less reliable!:rolleyes:

All guns have problems, therefore all guns are equal. :scrutiny:

And so on...


Tamara, you like 1911s, we get that. I'm glad you own Excalibur.:evil:

Jeff
February 21, 2004, 12:19 AM
I've owned one and shot a few dozen. Sold a couple of hundred more. The triggers on them were all junky. The only way you could say they weren't junky is if you didn't know what a good trigger felt like.

Nah, you are just being biased when you go so far as to say "junky." My Ruger Mark II Gov't Target and my early 80s S&W 586 have pretty nice triggers. My USP does not have a junky trigger.

I mean that plastic squirted into a mold is a cheap way to make frames, even if Hans und Franz popped the finished product out of its injection mold with their highly-trained precision teutonic hands.

At least you have a sense of humor. However, I maintain that the technology and development that went into perfecting the frames to perform the way they do-- light weight and resistance to fractures, as well as slide to frame marriage-- was not cheap. Yup, they are probably cheaper to manufacture than the steel variety, but the end result is far from cheap.

I guess if "decent" accuracy is good enough for you, then you'll be right happy.

Not to nit pick, but I said very decent accuracy, which I feel the USP has for an out of the box .45 auto. You said "tolerable," if I'm not mistaken, which is certainly less than very decent, and suggests accuracy that is just good enough to not be bad. Huge difference.

I mean that the gun exhibits indifferent levels of fit and finish. To wit: tool marks, flash-molding lines, stamped sheet metal bits, et cetera.

I don't believe that. My USP has no such finishing flaws, nor have I heard of others having such flaws. I think your typical higher-end 1911 will have a better QC ratio of superbly finished pieces, whereas the typical combat-grade polymer gun does not necessarily demand the same level of attention. However, to suggest, like you have done, that the USP regularly has such tooling marks and other finishing flaws, is grossly exaggerated and another example of bias.


As far as "lifespan" goes, the 105 year-old revolver I shot in the back yard yesterday has it all over any gun made of stampings and dinosaur juice. As far as reasonable durability goes, I'll take tool steel over plastic any day. There are plenty of WWII relics out there still shooting with all their original parts in them. Hell, there are plenty of guns older than that still shooting with all their original parts in them.

Ok, whatever. Now you are talking about cowboy guns that chamber low-pressure smoke loads. Yeah, I would say those tend to last a long time, assuming you clean them appropriately.

It sounds like you're saying the high-tech polymer that goes into making these frames will start to biodegrade, rendering the gun unstable or shorter-lived than an all-steel gun. This is a ridiculous orthodoxy and is yet again a perfect example of the all-steel snobbery and bias of many of the 1911 shooters.

You are, of course, wrong. My USP, in the course of its life, will fire tens of thousands of rounds before any significant repairs will have to be made to it. And it will fire ALL of them, and not just loads it finds "suitable" to its constitution.

....but a USP Expert, SIG GSR, and a Les Baer Concept I all cost within a few bills of each other: 100 years from now, two will still be shootable and one will be recycled into milk crates...

Just a pithy statement that contains no substance. Why, exactly, will my USP not be around 100 yrs from now? Care to explain?

Too bad all of our tennis rackets, skateboard wheels, bicycle frames, compound bows, golf clubs, etc. can't still be made from the almighty metal...instead of all that cheap, synthetic, and plastic-composite material. :rolleyes:

RikWriter
February 21, 2004, 12:21 AM
Did you have more facts or experiences to contribute?

Obviously the answer to that question was "No."

RikWriter
February 21, 2004, 12:22 AM
RikWriter, Come on.

Shall I take this as your admission that you're uninformed on the matter?

Greg Bell
February 21, 2004, 12:23 AM
Jeff,

"I don't believe that. My USP has no such finishing flaws, nor have I heard of others having such flaws. I think your typical higher-end 1911 will have a better QC ratio of superbly finished pieces, whereas the typical combat-grade polymer gun does not necessarily demand the same level of attention. However, to suggest, like you have done, that the USP regularly has such tooling marks and other finishing flaws, is grossly exaggerated and another example of bias. "


I agree. I have had 4 USPs and all had flawless fit and finish (which I can't say about my P7s
:cuss: ). But Tamara works at a gun shop. She has undoubtedly seen hundreds of USPs of poor quality.:D

geekWithA.45
February 21, 2004, 12:31 AM
Sig p245, as long as you keep the mag springs stiff. I've probably run about 8,000 rounds through mine, and it's had about 10 failure to loads, all of which were related to either the mags being filthy (couple of hundred rounds since I last tore them down) or a weak mag spring.

I've also put about 500 rounds through my para-ord p14.45 ltd, and it's so reliable it's boring.

Greg Bell
February 21, 2004, 12:34 AM
RikWriter,

If you are serious, and not just trying to win the argument, I will go to work monday and scan some old gun magazines with articles on how to make 1911s work reliably. (late 70's and early 80'). :confused: Why would they do this? I also have a review of the Sig 220 (euro mag) from the early 80's where they marvel about how reliable it is in comparison to 1911s. Perhaps they were using the evil BBS's to transmit this propaganda! :uhoh:

But I am going to presume that you aren't seriously contending that it wasn't common knowledge that 1911s had various reliability problems...yes, even before the evil internet!!
:rolleyes:

Come on folks, 1911 feeding problems are not new nor are they freak occurrences. Here, I'll admit something. P7s get hot...it isn't a myth! Wheew, I feel all better!:D :D :D

glocksman
February 21, 2004, 01:04 AM
Four pages and no one has mentioned the most reliable .45 ACP automatic known to man (according to Mas Ayoob)? :what:

I agree with Mas in that the most reliable out of the box .45 automatic is the Smith & Wesson 4506

Stainless steel, feeds anything, ergonomic, accurate, and American made. What's not to love? :neener:

Tamara
February 21, 2004, 01:08 AM
Nah, you are just being biased when you go so far as to say "junky."

No, I just have high standards. A double action trigger should be smooth and light through its entire travel, exhibiting no stacking or grittiness. A single action trigger should have minimal, light takeup and no overtravel. Triggers that exhibit the aforementioned flaws are junky, by definition.

Yup, they are probably cheaper to manufacture than the steel variety, but the end result is far from cheap.

Something that is cheap to make is cheap. (Or should be...)

You said "tolerable," if I'm not mistaken, which is certainly less than very decent, and suggests accuracy that is just good enough to not be bad. Huge difference.

It sounds like my idea of "tolerable" and your idea of "very decent" are similar.

I don't believe that. My USP has no such finishing flaws, nor have I heard of others having such flaws.

Again, different levels of expectations. I think Kimbers and Springfields have tons of annoying cosmetic flaws. Other folks don't see them. I guess it's all based on one's viewpoint.

Ok, whatever. Now you are talking about cowboy guns that chamber low-pressure smoke loads.

No, I'm talking about S&W Hand Ejectors that chamber smokeless powder loads. My 64 year-old Radom and 108 year-old Krag-Jorgenson certainly don't shoot low-pressure cowboy loads.

It sounds like you're saying the high-tech polymer that goes into making these frames will start to biodegrade, rendering the gun unstable or shorter-lived than an all-steel gun. This is a ridiculous orthodoxy and is yet again a perfect example of the all-steel snobbery and bias of many of the 1911 shooters.

That's me. "Orthodox 1911 Shooter Woman." Owner of nine Glocks, one USP, two P7's, whose next project gun is going to be a polymer-framed double-stack .38 Super STI. Check with the photography, audiophile, and antique toy-collector hobbyists if you'd like to see how other folks are dealing with long-term longevity of manmade materials. How long will a polymer-framed gun last? Well, we really don't know. We have a fairly decent idea of how long a steel-framed gun will last only from experience (and rust & embrittlement are still factors there.)

My USP, in the course of its life, will fire tens of thousands of rounds before any significant repairs will have to be made to it.

"Tens of thousands of rounds" is chickenfeed in some leagues, you realize. I know serious gamers who are 100k or 200k into an all-steel 1911. There are folks out there with more than that. On their second or third or fifth barrel in the same gun. Guns wear out and break. It is merely my contention that it will happen sooner to a gun that operates with metal parts embedded in a plastic frame. This is assuming that we don't find out that current plastics are subject to the same age-related ills as earlier ones. It would be fatuous to claim a lifespan of 100 years for a polymer firearm frame when the oldest ones are barely a quarter of that age. Again: do I think a polymer framed handgun will have an acceptable service life? Sure, especially when compared to an alloy-framed Beretta, SIG, or 1911. Do I think they'll still be shootable in 100 years? I don't know, but there's no really favorable evidence.

Too bad all of our tennis rackets, skateboard wheels, bicycle frames, compound bows, golf clubs, etc. can't still be made from the almighty metal...

Gee, there you go, assuming an animus against plastics where there is none. Plastic is good for what it's good for: light weight, resilience, ease of manufacture. From what we know thus far, it's not good for dessert toppings, flame-retardant suits, or long-term load-bearing structures that are exposed to extremes of temperature and UV light.

Greg Bell,

Tamara, you like 1911s, we get that.

No, apparently you're missing the point entirely. I'm merely correcting erroneous statements.

To say that "1911's are unreliable out of the box" is an inaccurate statement, considering that it takes in everything from out-of-the-box Auto Ordinances to out-of-the-box Ed Browns in one fell, misinformed, swoop. It is no more accurate than saying "HK's all clog their gas ports if you don't clean them."
"But my HK doesn't have a gas port!"
"Doesn't matter. My HK clogged its gas port, therefore all HK's will..."

She has undoubtedly seen hundreds of USPs of poor quality.:D

Guess we just have different standards of fit and finish. Me? Mold lines on the frame of a $1,000+ gun piss me off. :p back atcha.

I will go to work monday and scan some old gun magazines with articles on how to make 1911s work reliably.

...and I'll scan some on why hollowpoints wont feed in semiautomatics, why Airweight Smiths should never be shot with +P ammo, and why revolvers are better than unreliable jammomatics for self defense, all from the same era. A Wilson CQB/Baer TRS/SIG GSR/et cetera ain't your father's Oldsmobile. ;)

George Hill
February 21, 2004, 01:13 AM
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"Alright people, nothing to see here... move along."

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