calcats
May 19, 2012, 06:08 PM
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats. :confused:
calcats. :confused:
home defense
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Arp32
May 19, 2012, 06:17 PM
It will really annoy anyone who gets shot with it.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though, against a determined attacker, or one who might be under the influence, you'd be at the very low end of effectiveness in terms of caliber. All things being equal (shot placement, attacker's clothing, round type), you'd be better off with a .38 if you were looking for a low recoil caliber.
Google "caliber" and "ft lbs" to see the relative energy in various calibers.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though, against a determined attacker, or one who might be under the influence, you'd be at the very low end of effectiveness in terms of caliber. All things being equal (shot placement, attacker's clothing, round type), you'd be better off with a .38 if you were looking for a low recoil caliber.
Google "caliber" and "ft lbs" to see the relative energy in various calibers.
Texan Scott
May 19, 2012, 06:29 PM
I had a coworker called home in the middle of a night shift about 2 am because her husband had been shot :what: by her best female friend :confused: on their living room sofa at 1 am :scrutiny:. never found out WHY or what he did to provoke the shooting, but i'm pretty sure he wasn't right any way you look at it. not the sort of thing you ask the wife about later.
The 'lady' put a .25 acp to his head (contact/ powder burn distance) and pulled the trigger TWICE. Neither bullet penetrated the skull.
previous post about really p***** off your intruder applies.
The 'lady' put a .25 acp to his head (contact/ powder burn distance) and pulled the trigger TWICE. Neither bullet penetrated the skull.
previous post about really p***** off your intruder applies.
Onward Allusion
May 19, 2012, 06:58 PM
Some are going to tell you that the .25ACP is completely ineffective against anything but a squirrel yet these are the same people who would have no problem carrying a .22LR. Others will tell you that all a .25ACP will do is tick off their assailant. Still others will say that they would rather have a sharp stick...etc..etc.
Hogwash. Way back in the late 80's & up through the mid 90's, I carried a crappy Tanfoglio Titan and then a Beretta 21A both in .25ACP and it saved my butt on a couple of different occasions. Would I still carry one? No, because there are pistols like the LCP, P32, & P3AT at very affordable prices. Back in the day, the only option was the Seecamp and it costed an arm, leg, & first-born - all you had to do was wait a year to get it, too!
Any gun especially one that can fire off multiple shots is better than no gun. If a Raven in .25ACP is all you have, use it by all means. However, if and when you get enough money together for something in a larger caliber then go and get the larger caliber. In the meantime, shoot for the face/eye, throat, & crotch with your Raven -- Just make sure the thing will shoot w/o fail.
Hogwash. Way back in the late 80's & up through the mid 90's, I carried a crappy Tanfoglio Titan and then a Beretta 21A both in .25ACP and it saved my butt on a couple of different occasions. Would I still carry one? No, because there are pistols like the LCP, P32, & P3AT at very affordable prices. Back in the day, the only option was the Seecamp and it costed an arm, leg, & first-born - all you had to do was wait a year to get it, too!
Any gun especially one that can fire off multiple shots is better than no gun. If a Raven in .25ACP is all you have, use it by all means. However, if and when you get enough money together for something in a larger caliber then go and get the larger caliber. In the meantime, shoot for the face/eye, throat, & crotch with your Raven -- Just make sure the thing will shoot w/o fail.
Badlander
May 19, 2012, 07:08 PM
You will get all you deserve.
The_Armed_Therapist
May 19, 2012, 07:27 PM
99% of the time, crimes are deterred by just showing a firearm/never shooting it.
Now, if you show a Raven .25acp and the perpetrator DOESN'T give up/run away, then you're likely out of luck. Even if you get several shots off, how many hit? Of the 2 that hit, will it stop the kind of perp who isn't even deterred at the sight of a gun? Probably not.
Now, if you show a Raven .25acp and the perpetrator DOESN'T give up/run away, then you're likely out of luck. Even if you get several shots off, how many hit? Of the 2 that hit, will it stop the kind of perp who isn't even deterred at the sight of a gun? Probably not.
C0untZer0
May 19, 2012, 07:45 PM
If I ever have to face an armed attacker (armed with a firearm), I hope they're armed with a small caliber Davis/Raven/Bryco/Jennings/Jimenez.
Manson
May 19, 2012, 07:48 PM
If its the only weapon you own use it. If at all possible try to purchase something in a more popular defense caliber. This will be a great resource for you. Hang out here for a while and ask questions. You will soon have a better idea of what you can expect from the .25 and what else is out there that might better suit you.
Don't be discouraged. As people are fond of saying. I wouldn't want to be shot by your .25 to measure it's effectiveness.
Don't be discouraged. As people are fond of saying. I wouldn't want to be shot by your .25 to measure it's effectiveness.
Swing
May 19, 2012, 08:00 PM
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats
Better than nothing, for sure. However, a used, decent 12-gauge pump will run you two C-Notes. Why not upgrade? :)
calcats
Better than nothing, for sure. However, a used, decent 12-gauge pump will run you two C-Notes. Why not upgrade? :)
Lawdawg45
May 19, 2012, 09:19 PM
"Don't shoot Mongo with that, you'll just make him mad"...........Blazing Saddles :D
LD
LD
C0untZer0
May 19, 2012, 09:41 PM
Take it to the range and practice with it, I'm guessing that your question will get answered.
Plan2Live
May 19, 2012, 09:49 PM
An Attorney friend of mine just defended a bad guy who shot and killed another bad guy (who shot first by the way) with a .25 Lorcin. Two shots to the chest, dude dropped his 9 mil and staggered back then ran....a few feet then dropped. Dead is dead regardless of the size of the hole. You can argue that a .25 wouldn't be the first option that pops into most people's minds but a .25 in your hand beats a .45 in your closet, unless you are in that closet. :evil:
Pfletch83
May 19, 2012, 09:50 PM
As far as home defense you would be hard pressed to find a better close range gun than either the Smith&Wesson Governor or Taurus Judge With .410 Buckshot.
dubya450
May 19, 2012, 10:01 PM
I'd rather have a big knife or bat than a 25 honestly. We have a good family friend that is the chief of police in a city nearby and he's told me so many stories over the years. One that always sticks out is when he was called to a scene of a shooting. There was a group of guys playing poker and drinking, two guys ended up arguing for whatever reason and the one shot the other guy point blank in the forehead from across a poker table and when our cop friend arrived the guy who was shot was kicking the other guts butt and when they separated them the guy still had the bullet stuck in his forehead! It BARELY penetrated from ~4 feet away. I'd get a 22LR long before I even thought of a 25acp.
mmitch
May 19, 2012, 10:08 PM
Will it fire and cycle 2 boxes of ammo without a failure?
Are you a competent shooter with this gun?
If you can answer "yes" to both queries, then it will be adequate defense for those attackers whose motivation may be easily deterred.
Mike
Are you a competent shooter with this gun?
If you can answer "yes" to both queries, then it will be adequate defense for those attackers whose motivation may be easily deterred.
Mike
Texan Scott
May 19, 2012, 10:30 PM
I feel the need to clarify/ expand on my earlier post.
If the .25 is all you have, use it.
If a golf club is all you have, use it.
If pepper spray is all you have, use it.
My post about the guy shot twice is a true story, and I shared it to illustrate what would be my concern with having only that. No doubt the .25 is capable of being lethal. So's a steak knife. So's a good brass book end or paperweight. If they're the object most ready to hand, use them. Your life may be at stake; act accordingly. A .25 is far better than your fist. (seriously, hit a man with anything BUT your fist. a broken right hand could be the injury that costs you your life in a fight)
Remember, you're not fighting to KILL. You're fighting to LIVE. If he dies AFTER causing you a life-changing or life-ending injury, his death will be cold comfort. If he lives but causes no harm, just as good- maybe better. Above all, use ANYTHING that improves your odds of winning and living. A more potent caliber does not gaurantee this, but it might improve your odds a fair bit.
If the .25 is all you have, use it.
If a golf club is all you have, use it.
If pepper spray is all you have, use it.
My post about the guy shot twice is a true story, and I shared it to illustrate what would be my concern with having only that. No doubt the .25 is capable of being lethal. So's a steak knife. So's a good brass book end or paperweight. If they're the object most ready to hand, use them. Your life may be at stake; act accordingly. A .25 is far better than your fist. (seriously, hit a man with anything BUT your fist. a broken right hand could be the injury that costs you your life in a fight)
Remember, you're not fighting to KILL. You're fighting to LIVE. If he dies AFTER causing you a life-changing or life-ending injury, his death will be cold comfort. If he lives but causes no harm, just as good- maybe better. Above all, use ANYTHING that improves your odds of winning and living. A more potent caliber does not gaurantee this, but it might improve your odds a fair bit.
Loosedhorse
May 19, 2012, 10:45 PM
I shot a rabbit once (he was still, at close range) with a Baby Browning clone in .25 ACP. Dropped him right there.
Wouldn't use it on a deer. Wouldn't use it on an attacker, unless I had no other choice.
Wouldn't use it on a deer. Wouldn't use it on an attacker, unless I had no other choice.
SabbathWolf
May 19, 2012, 10:51 PM
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats. :confused:
Unless you get real lucky with perfect shot placement on a really skinny person wearing no clothes, you can "expect" to get beat down hard while they are cussing you out in the process.
Anything smaller than 9mm or 38spl is just asking for trouble.
It's certainly "NOT" something I would trust the safety and security of my family or myself to. Not at all.
:eek:
EDIT:
Just for future reference, your weapon does not use clips. ;)
calcats. :confused:
Unless you get real lucky with perfect shot placement on a really skinny person wearing no clothes, you can "expect" to get beat down hard while they are cussing you out in the process.
Anything smaller than 9mm or 38spl is just asking for trouble.
It's certainly "NOT" something I would trust the safety and security of my family or myself to. Not at all.
:eek:
EDIT:
Just for future reference, your weapon does not use clips. ;)
C0untZer0
May 19, 2012, 11:24 PM
I shot a rabbit once (he was still, at close range) with a Baby Browning clone in .25 ACP. Dropped him right there.
Well I think this shows that there is a good chance that the Raven will keep you safe from bunnies (unless there are more than 8 attackers).
Well I think this shows that there is a good chance that the Raven will keep you safe from bunnies (unless there are more than 8 attackers).
303tom
May 19, 2012, 11:31 PM
This is my go to for Home Defense.............Guarantee I pump a half dozen stinger HP`s into you, you will discontinue your assault..............
David E
May 19, 2012, 11:32 PM
Some are going to tell you that the .25ACP is completely ineffective against anything but a squirrel....
I would never say that....squirrels are tough!
I would never say that....squirrels are tough!
shiftyer1
May 19, 2012, 11:33 PM
It isn't what i'd call the best choice, but it's better than nothing....IF you can hit what you aim at.
I'm fairly certain these guns are meant to be belly guns
I'm fairly certain these guns are meant to be belly guns
SabbathWolf
May 19, 2012, 11:41 PM
This is my go to for Home Defense.............Guarantee I pump a half dozen stinger HP`s into you, you will discontinue your assault..............
LOL....sure...unless the other guy is equally pumping bullets from a "real" gun back into you at the same time. You might only get 1 or 2 shots off and just "sting" him.
:D
LOL....sure...unless the other guy is equally pumping bullets from a "real" gun back into you at the same time. You might only get 1 or 2 shots off and just "sting" him.
:D
hso
May 19, 2012, 11:42 PM
The .25 is possibly the worst possible choice. They lack power, accuracy, and range. While a .22lr would also be inadequate they would be better than the far worse .25 and they have the advantage of typically being bigger and more intimidating.
The Raven is one of the worst of the .25s in that it is unreliable as will as inadequate.
You'd be far better off with a single shot 410 shotgun.
The Raven is one of the worst of the .25s in that it is unreliable as will as inadequate.
You'd be far better off with a single shot 410 shotgun.
T Bran
May 19, 2012, 11:51 PM
Well dont show it to them and tell them it is only a Raven .25 auto.
Keep them guessing any one who points any gun at me I'm outta there as are most folks even an idiot doesnt stick around to figure out what you are about to shoot him with.
It isnt even close to ideal but it is far better than nothing and you have what you have for now. Down the road hopefully you can upgrade. In the meantime limit your exposure to the wackos to the best of your ability.
Keep fresh ammo in it and shoot it enough to be farmiliar with it, aside from that prey you dont ever need it as you should with any gun.
LUCK
T
Keep them guessing any one who points any gun at me I'm outta there as are most folks even an idiot doesnt stick around to figure out what you are about to shoot him with.
It isnt even close to ideal but it is far better than nothing and you have what you have for now. Down the road hopefully you can upgrade. In the meantime limit your exposure to the wackos to the best of your ability.
Keep fresh ammo in it and shoot it enough to be farmiliar with it, aside from that prey you dont ever need it as you should with any gun.
LUCK
T
skt239
May 20, 2012, 12:24 AM
With all due respect, choosing a knife or baseball bat over any firearm is not a well thought out statement. If you can't stop your attacker putting distance between you and them is the next best thing. Any firearm will do that better than a bat or knife. I'm willing to bet my next pay check that faced with a life threatening attack and given the option of a .25 or knife/bat, each and every person on this forum would go for the gun.
When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.
When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.
JEB
May 20, 2012, 01:27 AM
While a .22lr would also be inadequate they would be better than the far worse .25
i hear this a lot. i am not dissagreeing by any means, but i am curious as to just what exactly it its that makes the .25 worse than the .22?
i hear this a lot. i am not dissagreeing by any means, but i am curious as to just what exactly it its that makes the .25 worse than the .22?
David E
May 20, 2012, 02:43 AM
i hear this a lot. i am not dissagreeing by any means, but i am curious as to just what exactly it its that makes the .25 worse than the .22?
From the same length barrel, say, 2.5", the .25 wins, but not by much. But add to that the more reliable centerfire primer and a cartridge case that won't rim-lock, the .25 has even more going for it.
Most people saying the .22 LR is better are comparing a long barreled .22 (sometimes even a rifle) to a micro compact .25
From the same length barrel, say, 2.5", the .25 wins, but not by much. But add to that the more reliable centerfire primer and a cartridge case that won't rim-lock, the .25 has even more going for it.
Most people saying the .22 LR is better are comparing a long barreled .22 (sometimes even a rifle) to a micro compact .25
mljdeckard
May 20, 2012, 02:56 AM
Shouldn't you be bullying some goats trying to cross a bridge somewhere?
Let's assume for the moment that the question is sincere. If I am advising a person whom I actually care whether or not they live or die, I will not let them use a .25 for defense in any situation. The only thing worse than a .25 would be a .25 that is rimfire. Eat some mac and cheese, stall the cable bill, find a used .38 or G-19. These rounds are MUCH more likely to penetrate a human target deeply enough to stop them, and will displace about twice as much tissue.
Why is a .25 worse than a .22? First of all, the ballistics of the round are as bad as it gets. low velocity, fired from very short barrels. I have personally seen a welt on someone who was hit with a .25 in their vehicle. When you shoot someone with a defensive round, you don't want them to react by saying; "OW That HURT!!" Pretty much all .25s are put in the worst-made, lowest-capicity, cheapest guns you can buy. My wife is a rookie shooter, and she could dump 15 stingers from my Ciener conversion .22 to center of mass in a few seconds.
Using a handgun for self-defense is a bad choice to begin with. Using a Raven .25 is like buying a bargain parachute that someone died in. If you have to use a handgun in the middle of the night, you don't want the absolute worst one available.
Let's assume for the moment that the question is sincere. If I am advising a person whom I actually care whether or not they live or die, I will not let them use a .25 for defense in any situation. The only thing worse than a .25 would be a .25 that is rimfire. Eat some mac and cheese, stall the cable bill, find a used .38 or G-19. These rounds are MUCH more likely to penetrate a human target deeply enough to stop them, and will displace about twice as much tissue.
Why is a .25 worse than a .22? First of all, the ballistics of the round are as bad as it gets. low velocity, fired from very short barrels. I have personally seen a welt on someone who was hit with a .25 in their vehicle. When you shoot someone with a defensive round, you don't want them to react by saying; "OW That HURT!!" Pretty much all .25s are put in the worst-made, lowest-capicity, cheapest guns you can buy. My wife is a rookie shooter, and she could dump 15 stingers from my Ciener conversion .22 to center of mass in a few seconds.
Using a handgun for self-defense is a bad choice to begin with. Using a Raven .25 is like buying a bargain parachute that someone died in. If you have to use a handgun in the middle of the night, you don't want the absolute worst one available.
Retcop
May 20, 2012, 03:35 AM
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
Not very much against an armed intruder. Upgrade to a larger caliber ASAP
Not very much against an armed intruder. Upgrade to a larger caliber ASAP
fjlee
May 20, 2012, 04:38 AM
If I did use a Raven, it wouldn't be a .25
If I did use a .25, it wouldn't be a Raven.
FjLee
If I did use a .25, it wouldn't be a Raven.
FjLee
SimplyChad
May 20, 2012, 04:58 AM
John browning invented the 25 acp so there has to be some use for it. I think that is to be a pocket pistol aginst strong arm robberies and the such. Made to give several rounds to the belly and break away. If it was all I have i would practice my butt off with it.
With that said there are much better options in the used barrel of guns. A rossi/tuar
us 38 can be found new for under 250 bucks a sigma in 40 or 9 mil about the same. Are they the best weapons out there? No but they are a sight better then the .25 . Dunce moment the tried and true S&W model 10 can also be had for that. Along with several C&R firearms.
http://www.jgsales.com/hi-point-jcp-40s-w-black-pistol,-new-by-hi-point-p-5840.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-83-czech-surplus-380acp-pistol,-overall-good-to-very-good-condition.-p-5703.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-6779.html
http://www.jgsales.com/russian-1895-nagant-revolver,-in-7.62-nagant-caliber,-with-holster.-p-1059.html The cheapest by far. And a 32 H&R mag aint nothing to sneeze at.
http://www.jgsales.com/smith-wesson-model-64-38spl-4in-stainless,-square-butt-w-bobbedhammer,-good-to-very-good-condition-s-w-p-6678.html
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/654_910/gunbar
Shop around save up your money and get something better.
With that said there are much better options in the used barrel of guns. A rossi/tuar
us 38 can be found new for under 250 bucks a sigma in 40 or 9 mil about the same. Are they the best weapons out there? No but they are a sight better then the .25 . Dunce moment the tried and true S&W model 10 can also be had for that. Along with several C&R firearms.
http://www.jgsales.com/hi-point-jcp-40s-w-black-pistol,-new-by-hi-point-p-5840.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-83-czech-surplus-380acp-pistol,-overall-good-to-very-good-condition.-p-5703.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-6779.html
http://www.jgsales.com/russian-1895-nagant-revolver,-in-7.62-nagant-caliber,-with-holster.-p-1059.html The cheapest by far. And a 32 H&R mag aint nothing to sneeze at.
http://www.jgsales.com/smith-wesson-model-64-38spl-4in-stainless,-square-butt-w-bobbedhammer,-good-to-very-good-condition-s-w-p-6678.html
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/654_910/gunbar
Shop around save up your money and get something better.
SabbathWolf
May 20, 2012, 05:51 AM
With all due respect, choosing a knife or baseball bat over any firearm is not a well thought out statement. If you can't stop your attacker putting distance between you and them is the next best thing. Any firearm will do that better than a bat or knife. I'm willing to bet my next pay check that faced with a life threatening attack and given the option of a .25 or knife/bat, each and every person on this forum would go for the gun.
When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.
Sorry but ...no.
I'd rather rush my attacker with a knife in your scenario here.
A bat is OK I guess, but I'm pretty good with knives.
When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.
Sorry but ...no.
I'd rather rush my attacker with a knife in your scenario here.
A bat is OK I guess, but I'm pretty good with knives.
memphismark
May 20, 2012, 05:53 AM
I don't know where you got that statistic, but it's not even close to accurate with all due respect. memphismark
memphismark
May 20, 2012, 06:28 AM
For CalCats: You're goin' to get a lot of disappointing comments about your pea shooter choice. A solid shot to the heart is about the best you could realisticly hope for. It really is not going to be much of a personal defense weapon to be sure. Better than nothing? I guess so. But a nice, dirt cheap 410 shotgun would be much better. You sound like you may be a novice, and I commend you on looking to others for some help. You'll have to dicipher what is good advice and 'armchair' quarterbacking when your on a forum like this. I've already read a few claims that were slightly embellished, and couple of crime statistics that are just plain false, not the least of which was the so called 'fact' that 99% for of all potential crimes are thwarted just by the mere brandishing of a weapon in the direction of a would-be attacker! That's insane. Anyway, Taurus makes a nice pistol called The Judge, which is a comfortable shooting revolver that shoots a .410 shotgun shell. It's kick is very easy to control, and one model shoots both the .410 shell and I believe it's 45 colt. You'll have to double check me on that at TaurusUSA.com. Anyway, there are a miriad of other options if your budget is an issue. Many gunstores have used pistols, rifles and shotguns. I myself have a .22 rifle for squirrels and rabbits that have a bad habit of chewing up my garden on my weekend 5 acre property. It works fine for that, but I'm pretty sure that it won't be Rocky Racoon or Bug's Bunny thats going to be after your ass. I have a pimped out 'tactical' Mossberg 12 gauge. Taurus 40 S&W. Ruger LC9 and others for that most wiley of all garden criminals, the 2 legged homosapien, also known as the common a-hole! Good luck friend. Just a thought. memphismark
Lawdawg45
May 20, 2012, 07:42 AM
I could take a cardboard box, pillow and duct tape and call it a car seat for my grandchild, but why be addicted to sub-mediocrity with something important as a life? Take the Raven to a Pawn Shop and use the $50 to buy ammo for a sensible choice!;)
LD
LD
Ranger30-06
May 20, 2012, 08:58 AM
John browning invented the 25 acp so there has to be some use for it. I think that is to be a pocket pistol aginst strong arm robberies and the such. Made to give several rounds to the belly and break away.
Yes he did, but he also designed the caliber back in a time where the gunshot survival rate was next to 0%, so you could carry one of these calibers because chances were, whoever you shot was going to die. There was also a huge mental effect to the person shot, because they knew they wouldn't survive and had no will to live.
Ever since the major medical revolutions of the 80's and 90's, gunshots have had a rising survival rate, along with our culture that now believes that any problem can be fixed simply by showing up at the hospital. (Ask my mom; people thing the hospital is the fountain of youth...)
+1 on the CZ82 though, or even a Makarov. I have a .380 makarov that I would trust my life to, and remember, the Russians used the 9x18 Makarovs for what, 60 years? Doesn't seem to have been a problem for them! Although now they're using 9mm that's supercharged well past .357 Mag levels...
Yes he did, but he also designed the caliber back in a time where the gunshot survival rate was next to 0%, so you could carry one of these calibers because chances were, whoever you shot was going to die. There was also a huge mental effect to the person shot, because they knew they wouldn't survive and had no will to live.
Ever since the major medical revolutions of the 80's and 90's, gunshots have had a rising survival rate, along with our culture that now believes that any problem can be fixed simply by showing up at the hospital. (Ask my mom; people thing the hospital is the fountain of youth...)
+1 on the CZ82 though, or even a Makarov. I have a .380 makarov that I would trust my life to, and remember, the Russians used the 9x18 Makarovs for what, 60 years? Doesn't seem to have been a problem for them! Although now they're using 9mm that's supercharged well past .357 Mag levels...
Kiln
May 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
The Raven is fine, just make sure it works. Quality varies between guns but for the most part they're alright pistols...the most common issues are magazine related. It actually got some decent/good reviews back in the 80's before the anti-gun crowd made them the devil for being cheap...unfortunately alot of people still repeat the second hand BS about guns that are affordable.
I just find it funny that until a few years ago people just knew that Hi Points frequently flew apart because of their zamak construction and jammed all the time, now they're considered a decent gun for the money since people have actually tried them and stopped retelling the same tired stories. Same goes for Raven pistols, alot of their bad rep was earned by friend of a friend stories that were started during a very anti gun era in which cheap guns were demonized so that poor people wouldn't buy them.
The .25acp, while definately at the bottom of the totem pole, has killed a lot of people and at one point the Raven was one of the most frequently used guns in homicides.
While I'm sure there are instances of the .25acp sliding off of human skulls, I have serious doubts that it happens nearly as often as people online seem to have heard from their uncle john who knew a police officer who once saw a guy shoot himself in the face and walk to the hospital afterwards because he felt fine.
People who advocate the .22lr over the .25acp are simply misinformed and often quote the stats on a box of .22 ammo without taking into account the barrel lengths used when providing said stats. The .22lr is not superior to the .25acp. The .25acp penetrates better, has reliable ignition, and feeds better in most compacts. The biggest downside to .25acp is the price of ammunition.
My advice to you is to keep the Raven handy and start saving up for something better. Despite the incredibly stupid advice that some will give you, a knife or bat is not a better option than your Raven. Still though for about $150 or so you can pick up a military surplus pistol or a Hi Point and will be much better off.
I just find it funny that until a few years ago people just knew that Hi Points frequently flew apart because of their zamak construction and jammed all the time, now they're considered a decent gun for the money since people have actually tried them and stopped retelling the same tired stories. Same goes for Raven pistols, alot of their bad rep was earned by friend of a friend stories that were started during a very anti gun era in which cheap guns were demonized so that poor people wouldn't buy them.
The .25acp, while definately at the bottom of the totem pole, has killed a lot of people and at one point the Raven was one of the most frequently used guns in homicides.
While I'm sure there are instances of the .25acp sliding off of human skulls, I have serious doubts that it happens nearly as often as people online seem to have heard from their uncle john who knew a police officer who once saw a guy shoot himself in the face and walk to the hospital afterwards because he felt fine.
People who advocate the .22lr over the .25acp are simply misinformed and often quote the stats on a box of .22 ammo without taking into account the barrel lengths used when providing said stats. The .22lr is not superior to the .25acp. The .25acp penetrates better, has reliable ignition, and feeds better in most compacts. The biggest downside to .25acp is the price of ammunition.
My advice to you is to keep the Raven handy and start saving up for something better. Despite the incredibly stupid advice that some will give you, a knife or bat is not a better option than your Raven. Still though for about $150 or so you can pick up a military surplus pistol or a Hi Point and will be much better off.
jad0110
May 20, 2012, 09:58 AM
I'd rather have a big knife or bat than a 25 honestly. We have a good family friend that is the chief of police in a city nearby and he's told me so many stories over the years. One that always sticks out is when he was called to a scene of a shooting. There was a group of guys playing poker and drinking, two guys ended up arguing for whatever reason and the one shot the other guy point blank in the forehead from across a poker table and when our cop friend arrived the guy who was shot was kicking the other guts butt and when they separated them the guy still had the bullet stuck in his forehead! It BARELY penetrated from ~4 feet away. I'd get a 22LR long before I even thought of a 25acp.
Emphasis added.
The problem here may not have been the caliber. I have heard of at least two cases of .357 Magnum and at least one example of .45 ACP doing the same basic thing. In those cases, the rounds did not penetrate but instead bounced off. The forehead area of the human skull is not only very hard, it is also angle in such a manner that bullets often do just bounce off. Same can be said for putting down injured animals. Shooting them in the forehead is fine if you don't mind it not working, and you like the idea of lead shrapnel getting stuck in your shins :p. I suppose that may be one reason why many instructors recommend that head shots be aimed at the "T Zone" - no higher than a line running horizontally through the eyes with a another running straight down the nose to the neck.
As for the OP...
Assuming funds are tight right now and you are not yet able to upgrade, take the Raven out to a range to verify that it even works. Sometimes they don't. If you are new to shooting, don't be afraid to ask the staff for help. Assuming it functions reliably, I'd have no qualms about relying on it until I could save up for something better. Your mindset will be your most important tool anyway, God forbid the crap ever hits the fan. It is the indian, not the arrow as they say.
Granted, I have more potent options for home protection. If I were in your position, I would set a goal to replace the Raven at some point. For home protection, a used pump shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge are excellent values (often under $300, sometimes under $200), as just one example.
Emphasis added.
The problem here may not have been the caliber. I have heard of at least two cases of .357 Magnum and at least one example of .45 ACP doing the same basic thing. In those cases, the rounds did not penetrate but instead bounced off. The forehead area of the human skull is not only very hard, it is also angle in such a manner that bullets often do just bounce off. Same can be said for putting down injured animals. Shooting them in the forehead is fine if you don't mind it not working, and you like the idea of lead shrapnel getting stuck in your shins :p. I suppose that may be one reason why many instructors recommend that head shots be aimed at the "T Zone" - no higher than a line running horizontally through the eyes with a another running straight down the nose to the neck.
As for the OP...
Assuming funds are tight right now and you are not yet able to upgrade, take the Raven out to a range to verify that it even works. Sometimes they don't. If you are new to shooting, don't be afraid to ask the staff for help. Assuming it functions reliably, I'd have no qualms about relying on it until I could save up for something better. Your mindset will be your most important tool anyway, God forbid the crap ever hits the fan. It is the indian, not the arrow as they say.
Granted, I have more potent options for home protection. If I were in your position, I would set a goal to replace the Raven at some point. For home protection, a used pump shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge are excellent values (often under $300, sometimes under $200), as just one example.
BSA1
May 20, 2012, 10:13 AM
Fellas you are being baited. This is the O.P.'s first post and it is about use of mousegun for home defense.
skt239
May 20, 2012, 11:02 AM
I stand by my assumption. In a life or death situation, we are all instinctually reaching for the .25 raven.
mljdeckard
May 20, 2012, 12:34 PM
Kiln, it doesn't matter if it's better than a .22 if the .22 you are using makes it a lot easier to deliver a LOT more hits. .25s are small, low-capacity guns to begin with. My Ciener conversion holds 16. How many does a Raven hold, 6? The raven is difficult to grip and has a very small sight radius. You can do a LOT more damage with that conversion.
And more still with a shotgun loaded with #4 or OO.
And more still with a shotgun loaded with #4 or OO.
David E
May 20, 2012, 12:37 PM
How much did your base gun cost? How much more was the Ciener?
It's not apples to apples.
I agree we've been baited. Allowed an opportunity to share some thoughts, tho
And I want to know what pawn shop would give $50 for a used Raven!
It's not apples to apples.
I agree we've been baited. Allowed an opportunity to share some thoughts, tho
And I want to know what pawn shop would give $50 for a used Raven!
Certaindeaf
May 20, 2012, 01:50 PM
Vasili Blokhin killed 7000 people with a .25 acp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin
I've shot a Raven 25 quite a bit in the past and it was very accurate and reliable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin
I've shot a Raven 25 quite a bit in the past and it was very accurate and reliable.
Sheepdog1968
May 20, 2012, 01:57 PM
Jeff Cooper talked somewhat often about 22 LR. He didn't advocate it. If you were going to use it, he said you need to practice a lot at targets the size of an eyeball as that was your best chance. Personally I'd go with a major caliber.
Robert
May 20, 2012, 02:12 PM
Vasili Blokhin killed 7000 people with a .25 acp.
Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.
Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.
Certaindeaf
May 20, 2012, 02:22 PM
Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.
I understand.
I understand.
MachIVshooter
May 20, 2012, 04:35 PM
As far as home defense you would be hard pressed to find a better close range gun than either the Smith&Wesson Governor or Taurus Judge With .410 Buckshot.
No, you wouldn't. If one was going to use either of those for HD, .45 Colt loads would be a much better choice. Buckshot has abysmal performance from those guns.
Personally, I'd rather have a typical double-column 9mm than a Governor/Judge for almost any purpose, save dealing with venomous snakes.
No, you wouldn't. If one was going to use either of those for HD, .45 Colt loads would be a much better choice. Buckshot has abysmal performance from those guns.
Personally, I'd rather have a typical double-column 9mm than a Governor/Judge for almost any purpose, save dealing with venomous snakes.
David E
May 20, 2012, 05:00 PM
The Judge and Governor have their place....but it ain't in my nightstand drawer for defense.
Kiln
May 20, 2012, 07:58 PM
Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.
Yeah but it kind of shows that half of the "I saw somebody get shot in the face with the .25 one a foot away and it just bounced off" comments that fill these threads are probably just more second hand bullcrap.
I'm also aware that it is possible the op is just trolling. There is also a chance that it was a legitimate question though. I've known alot of people who used small caliber mouse guns for defense that thought they were well armed.
Yeah but it kind of shows that half of the "I saw somebody get shot in the face with the .25 one a foot away and it just bounced off" comments that fill these threads are probably just more second hand bullcrap.
I'm also aware that it is possible the op is just trolling. There is also a chance that it was a legitimate question though. I've known alot of people who used small caliber mouse guns for defense that thought they were well armed.
jehicks87
May 20, 2012, 09:43 PM
+1 on the CZ82 though, or even a Makarov. I have a .380 makarov that I would trust my life to, and remember, the Russians used the 9x18 Makarovs for what, 60 years? Doesn't seem to have been a problem for them!
:scrutiny:
:scrutiny:
303tom
May 21, 2012, 12:22 PM
LOL....sure...unless the other guy is equally pumping bullets from a "real" gun back into you at the same time. You might only get 1 or 2 shots off and just "sting" him.
:D
No, That`s only till I get to this.............
:D
No, That`s only till I get to this.............
SabbathWolf
May 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
No, That`s only till I get to this.............
What is that?
The cylinder looks HUGE!:what:
Talk about going from one extreme to the other!.....lol
What is that?
The cylinder looks HUGE!:what:
Talk about going from one extreme to the other!.....lol
mljdeckard
May 21, 2012, 07:47 PM
Under THOSE circumstances, he could have killed them with a ball-point pen. And I flat don't believe that 100% of those execution victims died with one bullet. Especially a small one.
Doug S
May 21, 2012, 10:58 PM
Practice with and use what you got until you can upgrade. When I got my first house after college, all I had was a 1907 (or 0 something, I can't remember exactly) Savage 380, and a WWII Walther P38 that I found in my dad's attic. Neither of which was all that reliable, but they were much better than nothing.
303tom
May 21, 2012, 11:59 PM
What is that?
The cylinder looks HUGE!:what:
Talk about going from one extreme to the other!.....lol
Yep, BFR in .45-70......................
The cylinder looks HUGE!:what:
Talk about going from one extreme to the other!.....lol
Yep, BFR in .45-70......................
pockets
May 22, 2012, 08:42 AM
You can always get a 'hi-cap' magazine and really annoy the Raven-haters. :D
A friend of a friend's uncle who worked with my wife's boss's Auntie Griselda said that it's good for 15+1 bunnies....or 8 super-squirrels.
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/pockets25/mp25-15-03.jpg
A friend of a friend's uncle who worked with my wife's boss's Auntie Griselda said that it's good for 15+1 bunnies....or 8 super-squirrels.
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/pockets25/mp25-15-03.jpg
Loosedhorse
May 22, 2012, 09:03 AM
just more second hand bullcrap.Shooting someone "execution style" need not involve the bullet penetrating any thick bones, and we can expect an "expert" like the murderer Blokhin to have known that. In fact, placed correctly, a blank charge can be fatal.
By contrast, the heavy bones of the face and the front of the skull provide many opportunities to deflect or defeat the .25 ACP FMJ. (And no, I would not want to depend on that; I just would not be surprised to see it happen.)
However, I have no real way of judging whether "half of the 'I saw somebody get shot in the face with the .25 one a foot away and it just bounced off' comments" are false, as you suggest.
By contrast, the heavy bones of the face and the front of the skull provide many opportunities to deflect or defeat the .25 ACP FMJ. (And no, I would not want to depend on that; I just would not be surprised to see it happen.)
However, I have no real way of judging whether "half of the 'I saw somebody get shot in the face with the .25 one a foot away and it just bounced off' comments" are false, as you suggest.
mljdeckard
May 22, 2012, 01:47 PM
Mine was firsthand. I saw a .25 hit 15 minutes after the event, a guy wearing leather, it failed to penetrate skin. As correctly stated above, there is no guarantee any bullet will do anything, but......some are much less likely to perforn than others.
memphismark
June 2, 2012, 11:06 AM
I like your idea Pockets. You think like me. "Some is good, more is better, too much is just right!".........
skoro
June 2, 2012, 01:16 PM
How much protection can I expect with it?
Much more effective than harsh words.
But it wouldn't be my choice.
Much more effective than harsh words.
But it wouldn't be my choice.
jimbo555
June 2, 2012, 01:43 PM
For home defense,go and adopt a dog and sell the raven and save for a s&w model 10.
Bikewer
June 2, 2012, 02:14 PM
The redoubtable Jeff Cooper used to say of the .25..."Carry one if it gives you comfort. However, don't load it. If you load it, you may be tempted one day to shoot someone with it, and that person will become angry and do you harm."
I handled one shooting with a .25, a domestic where the fellow and his wife were evidently struggling with the pistol and it went off and hit him in the shoulder.
He was not noticeably inconvenienced; he was holding a handkerchief to the wound (which wasn't bleeding) and was talking to his lawyer on the phone when we came in.
Not only is the little cartridge on the "below" side of "marginally effective", but the tiny guns are difficult to shoot with any accuracy.
I handled one shooting with a .25, a domestic where the fellow and his wife were evidently struggling with the pistol and it went off and hit him in the shoulder.
He was not noticeably inconvenienced; he was holding a handkerchief to the wound (which wasn't bleeding) and was talking to his lawyer on the phone when we came in.
Not only is the little cartridge on the "below" side of "marginally effective", but the tiny guns are difficult to shoot with any accuracy.
David E
June 2, 2012, 03:50 PM
You left out the best part of the quote:
"if you shoot someone with it and they find out about it..."
"if you shoot someone with it and they find out about it..."
PabloJ
June 2, 2012, 04:05 PM
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats. :confused:
Get 20ga or 12ga Mossberg pump gun.
Found you a good one. Go to Simpson Ltd site and click on new products. First listing is SKS paratrooper which is commercial Chinese Simonov with 18" barrel plus whole lot of good stuff included for $295. That is very good value for reliable home defender chambered for the 7,62 Soviet cartridge. There is no way of going wrong with that package at that price.
calcats. :confused:
Get 20ga or 12ga Mossberg pump gun.
Found you a good one. Go to Simpson Ltd site and click on new products. First listing is SKS paratrooper which is commercial Chinese Simonov with 18" barrel plus whole lot of good stuff included for $295. That is very good value for reliable home defender chambered for the 7,62 Soviet cartridge. There is no way of going wrong with that package at that price.
Lost Sheep
June 3, 2012, 03:41 PM
We could offer better advice if we knew something about your situation. Do you live in a rural area, in suburbs, inner city, high-rise apartment etc.?
We assumed from your question that you have little small arms experience. Is this correct? One of the tenets of self-protection is that you must practice. Lots of practice. Without competent skills, you may be more of a danger to yourself than if you were unarmed. (This contention is not generally agreed, so expect this statement to cause a flurry.) Do you have other self-defense skills (general good physical condition and strength, martial arts training, etc)?
If you tell us something about yourself, we can help you better.
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats. :confused:
jimbo555 is the first to give REALLY good advice. (post #62)
My first instinct was to emphasize that, from the gun, you can expect NO protection. It is YOU who provides the protection. The gun is just a tool.
But that answer deliberately misinterprets your question. You want to know if the cartridge/gun combination is adequate as a self-protection tool.
If you have to use a fire extinguisher, that means your fire-prevention system has failed miserably.
By the same token, a gun is only a part of a self-protection system, and not the most important part. Early warning is far more important. If you have to use a gun to protect yourself, it means your entire protection system has failed miserably.
Small sample:
1 Make your home and your person less inviting as a target. This tends to send evil-doers elsewhere.
2 Maintain situational awareness while you are awake and an intrusion detection system for when you are away or asleep. (The dog is good at this, or alarm systems.)
3 Devise and maintain an action plan for the instances when the first steps fail. Manually activated alarm, "hardened" safe room, cell phone, escape routes.
Your local police and your insurance company are good sources of free advice and have a vested interest in giving you counsel which has been vetted by LOTS of experience, not anecdotal as SOME advice you get on forums may be.
Lost Sheep
p.s. The term "Clip" is a term of art in small arms language. "Magazine" and "Clip" are often interchanged (incorrectly) and cause purists to go into conniptions. In the simplest terms, a magazine has a feeding spring, a clip does not.
A clip merely holds cartridges (usually for easy insertion into a magazine) while a magazine has actually feeds cartridges into the chamber preparatory to firing.
Magazines may be able to be removed from the gun (as your Raven and most semi-auto pistols and the famous M-16 have detachable magazines) or may be part of the gun (as many bolt-action and lever action rifles, most shotguns and the M-1 Garand and Mauser pistol). Note that the M-1 used a clip to fill the magazine in the rifle and the clip itself was inserted into the magazine. The Mauser used a "stripper clip" where the shooter put the clip atop the magazine and stripped the rounds into the magazine. The M-16 had stripper clips that were used to fill the (detachable) magazines quickly, 20 rounds with a single hand movement. You can see that there are a lot of variations.
To repeat, in small arms, clips hold ammunition. Magazines both hold ammunition and feed into the chamber.
We assumed from your question that you have little small arms experience. Is this correct? One of the tenets of self-protection is that you must practice. Lots of practice. Without competent skills, you may be more of a danger to yourself than if you were unarmed. (This contention is not generally agreed, so expect this statement to cause a flurry.) Do you have other self-defense skills (general good physical condition and strength, martial arts training, etc)?
If you tell us something about yourself, we can help you better.
I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?
calcats. :confused:
jimbo555 is the first to give REALLY good advice. (post #62)
My first instinct was to emphasize that, from the gun, you can expect NO protection. It is YOU who provides the protection. The gun is just a tool.
But that answer deliberately misinterprets your question. You want to know if the cartridge/gun combination is adequate as a self-protection tool.
If you have to use a fire extinguisher, that means your fire-prevention system has failed miserably.
By the same token, a gun is only a part of a self-protection system, and not the most important part. Early warning is far more important. If you have to use a gun to protect yourself, it means your entire protection system has failed miserably.
Small sample:
1 Make your home and your person less inviting as a target. This tends to send evil-doers elsewhere.
2 Maintain situational awareness while you are awake and an intrusion detection system for when you are away or asleep. (The dog is good at this, or alarm systems.)
3 Devise and maintain an action plan for the instances when the first steps fail. Manually activated alarm, "hardened" safe room, cell phone, escape routes.
Your local police and your insurance company are good sources of free advice and have a vested interest in giving you counsel which has been vetted by LOTS of experience, not anecdotal as SOME advice you get on forums may be.
Lost Sheep
p.s. The term "Clip" is a term of art in small arms language. "Magazine" and "Clip" are often interchanged (incorrectly) and cause purists to go into conniptions. In the simplest terms, a magazine has a feeding spring, a clip does not.
A clip merely holds cartridges (usually for easy insertion into a magazine) while a magazine has actually feeds cartridges into the chamber preparatory to firing.
Magazines may be able to be removed from the gun (as your Raven and most semi-auto pistols and the famous M-16 have detachable magazines) or may be part of the gun (as many bolt-action and lever action rifles, most shotguns and the M-1 Garand and Mauser pistol). Note that the M-1 used a clip to fill the magazine in the rifle and the clip itself was inserted into the magazine. The Mauser used a "stripper clip" where the shooter put the clip atop the magazine and stripped the rounds into the magazine. The M-16 had stripper clips that were used to fill the (detachable) magazines quickly, 20 rounds with a single hand movement. You can see that there are a lot of variations.
To repeat, in small arms, clips hold ammunition. Magazines both hold ammunition and feed into the chamber.
David E
June 4, 2012, 02:39 PM
We could offer better advice if we knew something about your situation.
We already know what we need to know: he's a troll.
This thread should be locked.
We already know what we need to know: he's a troll.
This thread should be locked.
Ranger30-06
June 4, 2012, 05:32 PM
This has to be the longest troll thread ever...
Lost Sheep
June 5, 2012, 01:53 AM
We already know what we need to know: he's a troll.
This thread should be locked.
Uh, right. I am a sucker for trolls and an easy target that way. I believe every line I read is sincere until proven otherwise.
And I still have hope that Calcats will show up and prove to be as sincere as I am naive.
(Fingers crossed) Lost Sheep
This thread should be locked.
Uh, right. I am a sucker for trolls and an easy target that way. I believe every line I read is sincere until proven otherwise.
And I still have hope that Calcats will show up and prove to be as sincere as I am naive.
(Fingers crossed) Lost Sheep
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