AMMO for 454Casul/45LC: re-loads

Hello,

I am getting 454/45 SRHH 7.5" brl, primarily for hunting deer, and larger game.
I plan to mount Ultradot 30.

Question is about ammo:

I had planned to use mostly hand loaded hot 45LC for deer hunting, and most applications, and only us 454 when power was needed, or wanted for "fun".

Some have suggested using 454 brass exclusively. This would mean "downloading" it for lighter, lower recoil rounds, as I do not want or need the full force and abuse of the 454 power all the time.

This would avoid the issue of the "crud ring" that causes 454 brass to stick when fired after 45LC. But could it cause reduced accuracy?

Pros/Cons???

Personally, I would heed the advice about using .454 cases and load to the desired velocity. If you're handloading, there's really no reason not to and you avoid the crud ring. For deer and average sized hogs, standard weight bullets (250-260gr) are plenty and a good cast bullet will exit from any angle 99% of the time. A good 275-280gr LBT would also be a very good choice. For jacketed bullets, which tend to anchor deer a little quicker, I love the bonded-core Gold Dot all over the XTP. Which often suffers from jacket/core separation. I would drive them no faster than 1300-1400fps and you can do that easily enough with 2400 or 4227. Dick Casull pushed 260's at 2000fps in .45Colt brass when developing the cartridge and while that may impress the numbers worshipers, it does you no good in the real world.

.454 Casul for deer? A bit of overkill, don't you think? I hunt them 4 legged varmints with my .45LC S&W 25-5 with the following load: cast 265gr HP with 18.0gr of 2400 in a Starline case. If this load will shoot through a deer from stem to stern, what more do you need?

Don

I have an LBT mould block that casts a 320 gr WNFP and even loaded to the front crimp groove is too long for my SRH. Use the 45 Colt cases for "lighter" loads,cleaning the crud ring is not that big a deal.

Thanks, but I am new to re-loading, so what is LBT, is that like a BLT with the lettuce on top? WNFP?

I realize 45LC is plenty for deer. As I stated, using 45LC was my original plan, but many have suggested 454 exlucsively, but downloaded to reasonable levels. I am still confused. I'll try to get used to it! ;-)

LBT bullet molds.
http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

Thier WFN (Wide Flat Nose) are noted for hunting bullet design.

rc

USSR A 454 brass can be loaded down to 1000 to 1100 fps with a 260gr bullet would make a fine deer load and a mild shooter. What do you see wrong with that. Loaded to 1200fps it matchs your loads. 800 to 1000 fps for range time with the better half or teenages. Then if used to go after a trophy moose or brown bear it can be stepped up to 360 gr hardcast at 1400fps or a 435gr at 1200fps. Seems like a do it all big bore round. Specialy if you get a good buy it the 454. Soft and light shooting to hard and heavy.

USSR A 454 brass can be loaded down to 1000 to 1100 fps with a 260gr bullet would make a fine deer load and a mild shooter. What do you see wrong with that.

.45 Colt brass is cheaper and easier to come by. I load my .45 Colt load to that velocity, and the powder comes nowhere's near to filling the case. Only gonna be more dead air space in the longer case. Just MHO.

Don

Thanks guys.

Question: I have been told by an expereinced re-loader that I can use 45LC dies to load 454. Is that correct? Pros/Cons?

Also, what is the potential problem with the "dead air space" in a downloaded 454 case? Can this hurt accuracy?
How can this be avoided? Use of slower burning powders? Someone mentioned trail boss?

You can use 45 Colt dies for 454, I know guys who go that route, and it will work ok. However, I find I get better neck tension on the bullet using 454 specific dies from RCBS. Neck tension is important in 454 full power loads, because every time you fire the gun the recoil is trying to pull the bullets out of the cases of the remaining rounds.

What I did was buy the RCBS 3-die carbide set for the 454 Casull, and added a Lee Factory Crimp Die. The LFCD is the same between the 454 and the 45 Colt. I could also use these RCBS dies for 45 Colt I guess, but I don't because I don't want to mess with readjusting them every time I want to move from loading one to the other.

What would be the simplest, most cost effective die I could get for 454?
Or am I fine with 45LC dies? Having never bought one...???
My neighbor has all the presses and 45 and 44 dies, etc. I can use whenever.

I have 2 set ups for my 45 colt and 454,the Colt dies are from Dillon but the 454 dies are from Redding. Redding uses titanium carbide rather than tungsten carbide and I can tell the difference between the 2 on my 650. My only complaint with Redding is if your loading cast bullets you may have to call them for the correct seating punch. They will send it free of charge but you have to ask for it.

I just remembered something if you buy a set of 45 Colt dies and your using a single stage press you can switch back and forth by using a 1/8" washer to raise the 45 Colt dies to load 454. I think Redding may sell a set of spacers to do the same thing.

Approx price for 454 dies?
Or can I really get by w/o my bullets flying apart under recoil, using the 45 dies to make 454?

Or does the inovation of using the washer really work?

The washer spacer works fine, but not in your calibers.

The .454 case is 1.383" long.
The .45 Colt case is 1.285" long.

A differance of .098".

1/8" is .125", so a 1/8" washer won't work.

Still, .45 Colt dies can be used to load .454 just fine.

You just have to adjust the seating/crimp die accordingly by screwing it in or out of the press .098" and locking the lock-ring.

Die spacers for .44 Spl/.44 Mag (.125") and 38 Spl/357 Mag (.135").
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:die-spacer-kit

rc

The least expensive option is going to be getting a 4-die carbide set of Lee 45 Colt Dies. You can load 454 Casull with these just fine. They usually cost around $36 for the set from a place like Midway USA.

RCBS would probably be the next bump up in price. Then Redding.

Ok, so Hamrdwn77, what about the issue you raisde about recoil possibly causing bullets to come apart?

rcmodel, is it much extra work to adjust the crimp die and locking the lock ring? Or is that a normal part of the process? Or is it worth it to just buy a set of 454 dies for $40, and simolify the process, or does buying the 454 dies not give much advantage. I already have access to 45lc dies free.

Buy a set of dies for. 454 they don't cost that much more and will also load .45 Colt better than. 45 Colt dies will since neck tension will be better.

Make sure to buy a carbide resizing die so you don't have to lube cases. Also pick up a separate crimp die so you don't have to crimp when you seat bullets. Trying to put a heavy neck down crimp on while seating a bullet in the same stage is virtually impossible. So you will have four total dies in the set once you buy everything.

Don't buy anything. Use the stuff your friend has, under his supervision. IF you have problems, then start looking at other solutions.

With the loads you are likely to shoot I don't think much of this concern about bullet pulling is going to happen. That 3.3 pound gun is going to slow down a LOT of the recoil. Your target load generates this for recoil:
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

That's NOTHING. my .45 Super loads recoil about that much. When you start getting bullet pull is with heavier loads, or a much lighter gun.

For instance my 360PD Scandium has bullet pull issues. It gives you numbers like this:
148 grains 1131 fps:
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 40 fps.
Notice the VERY high Recoil velocity. This is what pulls bullets. It's the gun accelerating suddenly, and slamming the remaining rounds around.
Even at that speed, no bullet pull issues. Those start happening with full power .357 loads, like 158's at 1591 fps(thats the load data, I don't get that in my snubbie)
Recoil Energy of 43 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 61 fps.
I shot one round, unloaded the gun, and went back to something that wouldn't cut my finger and break my wrist.

If I heavy load my .500 Linebaugh Maximum, 525's at 1550 fps, I get these numbers:
Recoil Energy of 71 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 36 fps.
My gun is near the same weight as yours, and as you can see it's really hard to get the gun moving near as fast as some of the light guns.

What I'm trying to say is I don't see much you can load in your gun that's going to pull bullets.

In my old Seville the most I ever shot was 360 grains at 1550 fps:
Recoil Energy of 40 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 28 fps.
Even that didn't pull bullets. Those rounds loaded in .45 Colt brass, with .45 Colt dies.

If you run 260's with H110, at Max velocity 1954 fps, at 51,600 CUP
you get:
Recoil Energy of 37 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 27 fps.
That's STILL not bullet pull area in your gun, unless you really limp wrist it and just let the gun go.

I used to fill the .45 Colt case with H110, load a 230 grain super hard cast ball on top, and go plinking.
This load would run about 1900-2000 fps. While I would have liked a LFN
type bullet, I always thought this load would work for bears, deer, mountain lions or drug guys in our mountains.

That bit of insanity NEVER pulled a bullet, and I was loading with a Dillon 550 and standard .45 colt dies.

To put it simple:
Don't throw away money you don't have to for something that isn't going to happen.

Yep, Prosser is right. Use what you have access to right now for a bit and then determine what you want to buy next.

I did not mean to give the impression that bullet pull was a common thing. It is a concern, like Prosser said, in the lighter weight guns with heavy recoil, and heavy bullets. In the 454, the one you hear about it the most is with the Ruger Alaskan. Usually with factory ammo using a jacketed bullet (most of which do not have a very deep crimp groove). In fact, in that famous internet post about the guy shooting the charging brown bear with his Ruger Alaskan and killing it, the part that is often left out is that his revolver jammed up due to bullet pull (after the third or fourth shot, I believe).
A feller here in town also jammed up his Freedom Arms 454 with bullet pull. He was using bullets that came right out to the end of the cylinder throats, and just a little bit of bullet jump resulted in the next bullet being just a hair past the end of the cylinder, which hit on the forcing cone and prevent the cylinder from rotating. I think that was a shorter barreled FA, although I'm not sure.

In the bigger SRH, I doubt you'd have problems.

Ok, so I will plan 2 use the 45lc dies w/ 454 cases.
CD, etc, please explain about the carbide resizing die, and crimp die.
Lubing cases?

Are the above normally included in standard 45lc die sets?

Also, 4 getting started, where can I buy downloaded/soft 454 factory ammo so I can start shooting if I have a delay in re-loading? I am looking for something like 260 grns at 1100 fps or 250 at 12000-1300 fps.

Alternatively, where can I quickly get the 454 "starline" or other brass and powder/small rifle primers?
Do all 454 rounds, regardless of pressure require small rifle primers? Or can softer 454 loads use pistol primers?



Thanks!

Huntolive,

You're making yourself more work than necessary. Just load 18.0 - 18.5gr of 2400 behind a 255 - 270gr SWC in a Starline .45LC case and, voila, instant 1100fps deer load.

Don

Carbide resizing dies will be noted on the box the dies are stored in, and can be identified by the recessed ring of metal at the bottom of the die. This metal ring is the actual tungsten carbide re-sizer. This material is harder than normal tool steel and also takes on a very smooth low friction surface finish. Thus allows re-sizing brass without the need to lubricate cases, which would otherwise get stuck in the die or be extremely difficult to work. Don't worry too much about thus since most strait wall pistol cartridge reloading dies sold today come with a carbide resizing die. There are still some non carbide dies still sild though, so if you need to buy dies spend the extra money for carbide.

For downloaded .454 ammo your best bet is Winchester Super X 250gr hollow points at 1300fps. They are pleasant to shoot and accurate.

For brass, powder, primers, and bullets there is probably a local dealer you can order or buy from. Failing that I get components from Midway USA. They have a website, and their customer service is excellent. Natchez Shooters Supply is another excellent online source.

Stick with small rifle primers by the way, a small pistol primer won't have enough power.

Thanks,

USSR, That was my 1st plan, but there seem 2 b advantages to 454 cases due to my owning a 45lc Judge, so I'd hate to accidentally put a hot 45 in that, and 454 avoids the crud ring, and other possible wear to the gun.

But, I would like to hear you argument for sticking w/ the 45lc, as I almost got sick to my stomach when i saw the prices of 454 brass, plus it is hard to find. Starline 454 is backordered, while 45lc and 44Mag is widely available, at about 1/2 the price. I am now even considering just getting the 44Mag, and walking away from the 454 altogether.

I love my 454, plenty of brass on sites like gunbroker etc. I still am on my first brass, maybe 5-6 years of owing it. 100 rounds will last a while, YMMV

...due to my owning a 45lc Judge, so I'd hate to accidentally put a hot 45 in that, and 454 avoids the crud ring, and other possible wear to the gun.

Okay, let's deal with your issues. First, there are a lot of ways to identify different loads in the same cartridge case. Using different cases, or primers such as nickle plated ones for one type of load, brass for another are useful indicators. Or, using different bullets for different loads. Or, as a last resort, marking the cases with a black magic marker to indicate how the cartridge is loaded. The crud ring is a non-issue. Guys have been shooting .38 Specials out of .357 Magnums and .44 Specials out of .44 Magnums for years without problems. You simply run your cleaning rod through the chambers which takes all of 5 minutes. Wear to the gun? You are using loads that develop pressure well below what the gun is designed to handle, so there is actually less wear than the manufacturer expects. Hope that helps.

Don

"But, I would like to hear you argument for sticking w/ the 45lc, as I almost got sick to my stomach when i saw the prices of 454 brass, plus it is hard to find. Starline 454 is backordered, while 45lc and 44Mag is widely available, at about 1/2 the price. I am now even considering just getting the 44Mag, and walking away from the 454 altogether."

:banghead:

.45 Colt brass will do ANYTHING you want to do in a SRH, provided the chambers are cut tight.

Yes, Freedom Arms probably gets a royalty paid for every piece of .454 brass sold, inflating the price, and making ammo makers reluctant to invest in such an enterprise when they can produce .45 Colt brass for the same price and keep all the profit themselves.

I would consider saving up a bit of money and shopping for any of the following:

Freedom Arms 83 in .454. Can be found for 1000 dollars or less, and are far better then ANY ruger.

www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Firearms.asp
BFR 45 Colt/.410
BFR .454

Better made then Rugers, and worth the money.

When I buy another .45, it's going to be the BFR in .454, and I will use .45 Colt brass only. I know the BFR chambers are cut tighter, and they are using 17-4 now for cylinders. Hard to cut, but super strong.

On rare days you can get fantastic deals on the BFR revolvers that get them into the Ruger price range.

They also make a .44 magnum.

Your idea of going with the .44 Magnum has little merit. There are just too many bullets being made in .45 ACP/Colt and this variety and supply keeps the cost down. The .44 Special market is just too small compared to the .45 ACP market to provide cheap plinking bullets in the long run, like the .45 ACP does for the the .45 Colt.

If you decide to go .44 Magnum, the BFR would be first choice, but, the .44 Magnum from Ruger has the wonderful option of having the cylinder bored out to .45 Colt, and rebarreled, if you get a dog with oversized chambers.

255 grain SWC or RNFP bullet + 12.2 grains of Herco is about 1300 fps from a 7.5" Blackhawk. That's a pretty hot load for a .45 Colt (don't shoot it in your Judge or prewar Colt or derringer!) but would be nothing for a .454 Casull gun. You should be able to use either size brass, but maybe bump it up to 13.0 in the longer Casull case.

A good downloaded .454 Casull recipe is with a 250gr XTP (the one for .45 Colt NOT the 240gr XTP/Mag) and Universal powder. Pretty much duplicates the factory Winchester Super X loading, a whole lot less recoil and PLENTY for deer.

Another is a 255gr or 265gr lead SWC and Trail Boss you will hit harder than most standard pressure .45 Colt loads. Again, a great load for deer.

Find recipes at data.hodgdon.com

There should be no issue of lacking neck tension with the 45 dies used for .454. But as with any big boy wheel gun cartridge, a good firm roll crimp is always necessary to prevent bullet jump under fire.

I also like not having to worry about a double or over charge of fast burning powder slipping by unnoticed. If I can get a double charge to fit in a case with ease, I won't use that powder, but that's just me and my approach to reloading.

GS

Your idea of going with the .44 Magnum has little merit.
Oh hogwash! He wants a deer gun and you think he should spend twice as much on a used FA??? The .44 will do everything he needs it to and he won't have to worry about the chambers being cut properly. As usual, the .45 Cult is high on passion and low on logic.

.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets also wider.

Shouldn't it really be called the ".43 Magnum"?

No cheap and easy to get .45 ACP bullets for the .43 to be loaded with.


What's a .43 Magnum going for these days?

Price on the .454 SRH is pretty good. Besides if the chambers are off he can get it a new cylinder and barrel in .475 L or .500JRH.

I don't like the gambling 600-700 on a Ruger to have to work it when the FA and BFR are considerably better guns, and priced not THAT far from the guns he's considering.

Nothing wrong with a Ruger .43 Magnum, and except for plinking bullets,
it might well be a bit cheaper all the way down the line.

Hell if he got a used FA or a BFR he could just have a cylinder made and timed to the frame chambered for .45ACP. Cheap plinking bullets in readily available brass and loaded ammo by the bulk pack if he so desires.

That is what I plan to do with my FA when it goes in for an action job.

.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets also wider.
Yes, I've heard that regurgitated statement before.....once or twice. Another crock. At the top end, at standard pressures (32,000psi for the .45), the .44 will sling bullets with higher sectional densities at higher velocities. Examples, for equivalent sectional densities - 355gr .44 at 1250fps vs 395gr .45 at 1050fps. For equivalent bullet weights 355gr at 1250fps vs 360gr .45 at 1150fps.

No critter will ever tell the difference.


No cheap and easy to get .45 ACP bullets for the .43 to be loaded with.

When's the last time you actually shopped for .44 bullets??? The .44 has a plethora of bullets available and I'd love to hear where you're getting jacketed ACP bullets for less than cast .44 bullets. I've also never seen an ACP bullet with a cannelure for crimping.


I don't like the gambling 600-700 on a Ruger...
Open your eyes. Ruger has been operating in the black for every year since its inception. They operate on cash, have no debt and can't build guns fast enough. The fear of getting a "bad" .44 is completely unjustifiable.


Besides if the chambers are off he can get it a new cylinder and barrel in .475 L or .500JRH.
Yeah, because that's a cheap and easy solution. 'Some' folks obviously lack perspective.

USSR
Member



.454 Casul for deer? A bit of overkill, don't you think? I hunt them 4 legged varmints with my .45LC S&W 25-5 with the following load: cast 265gr HP with 18.0gr of 2400 in a Starline case. If this load will shoot through a deer from stem to stern, what more do you need?

Don


Dead is dead, isn't it? 'ol Elmer never thought this.
Steve

Last .45 bullets I bought are here:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25637/catid/5/S_S_Hardcast_Bullets__packages_of_1000_
Same cost as the .44 magnum bullets, pretty much.

Who cares about sectional density? If a 260 grain bullet goes end to end on deer and hogs that's all you need.

He's also not buying a .45 Colt. The suggestion is to use .45 Colt BRASS, in a .454 Casull chambered gun. I just pointed out the .45 Colt loadings can equal the .44 magnum, in a .454 gun, with lower pressure. I'm discussing bullets with equal bullet weights, since sectional density is irrelevant, unless you are shooting cape buffalo.

So are you saying there is something in the 48 that a .45 Colt brass in a .454 gun can't be loaded to shoot through? Maybe a Peterbilt?

I've loaded a LOT of bullets in the .45 Colt, and with an adequate crimp, regardless of crimp grove or not, only the very top pressure loads had bullet creep.
Another strawman.

WHY would you load 355 grain or heavier bullets in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt?
The elephants break out of the zoo? I guess if you have a lot of 2000 pound
plus animals running around this might be a concern.

If that was REALLY the concern then a .44 Magnum or a .45 Colt are poor choices, since you can get a .480 or .475 Linebaugh in either a BFR or Ruger
for the same cost.

So you berat my position since all he wants is a deer gun, and then suggest the .44 magnum because it's better with 355 grain bullets?

We are done.

Kid, you can't loose either way. I just threw out a few options you might consider. I'd really ask your mentor, the guy who's going to let you use his reloading equipment what he thinks you should get, and what you should use for your area. If he's on board your life and situation will work out.
He'll be invested in what you buy, rather then listening to a bunch of advice from some old internet gun "experts".

I actually don't know why I'm even discussing this. I loved the .44 Special/Magnum. Something warm and fuzzy about 240 grain .430" bullets.
They are totally adequate for anything you'll shoot, and I enjoyed loading them. I carried a .44 Special CA bulldog, until I shot it loose using low end .44 magnum loads in it, in .44 special brass.

There are more guns, that are easier to conceal, in .44 Special then their used to be, and some are darn good.

I like the .45 bullets since I can use them in .45 Colt, .45 Super, .45 ACP, 460 Rowland, 454 Casull etc. That allows me to buy a certain type of bullet
and load it across the board.

Prosser,

On the 355+gr bullets in .45 Colt or. 454 I know there is no logical reason to load them for anything I am likely to ever hunt. On the other hand I am still curious what kind if performance I can get from one. I also enjoy shooting rocks with them even if they are pretty expensive plinking fodder.

I suppose if I were ever lucky enough to draw a bison tag in South Dakota a 360gr hard cast WFNGC over a stiff charge of H110 or IMR4227 might be just the ticket.

One other advantage of the .454 at least in South Dakota, is that it meets and exceeds the minimum energy requirements for elk hunting. Not sure if the .44 Magnum can get there, the regulation states that the firearm must utilize ammunition factory rated at a minimum of 1800lb-ft. Obviously this is intended to rule out small caliber centerfire rifles, but also ends up ruling out many centerfire pistols that are more than powerful enough. I am personally not a worshipper at the altar of kinetic energy but the law is what it is. Other states may vary.

So you berate my position since all he wants is a deer gun, and then suggest the .44 magnum because it's better with 355 grain bullets?
You're the one that brought up heavy bullets:
.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets
All I was doing was countering the .45 Cult nonsense.


WHY would you load 355 grain or heavier bullets in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt?
I don't know about you but I'm toting my ass to Africa before I'm 40.

Then you better get a .45 Colt.:evil:
360 grain bullets, in a .454 revolver, at 1550 fps. 38" of cape buffalo was the average of 5 shots by Ross Seyfried. YMMV.


Over 1800 ft-lbs as well.
The weird part about that law is guns like the .475 Linebaugh with 420 grain bullets at 1350 fps, and the 430 grain 1350 fps .500JRH just miss 1800 ft-lbs.

When I said "heavier bullets" I was thinking bullets in the 360-395 grain range, literally. .43 Magnum won't do those.

Again: My position is if you need that weight bullet, get a bigger caliber.

Jack Huntington went to Africa a bit back and the hassle of getting his pistol into the countries was so bad he just took rifles. I know it can be done so tell me how you do it when you go.

I'm not a .45 Cultist, since what I really use is a 45/454 when I have one, and plan on getting another. Argument is the .45 Colt will do anything I need doing with a 260 grain bullet at 1200 fps. Likewise that would apply to the .43 Magnum as well.

I was pointing out that the .45 Colt case seems to like at least that bullet weight, and up until about 325 grains. The velocity results seems to favor the heavy bullets, unless you get a long barrel.

I find the .45 adequate for anything and with the big case the reduction in pressure is nice. However it does take a little more powder. I just found the .45 Colt with 260's very pleasant to shoot.

I also find it compelling that Ross Seyfried seems to have settled on the .45 Colt as his carry and hunting pistol, after using all the exotics.

I'm already invested in .45's so...

Really too bad no one ever made an automatic case that takes the .430"
bullets.

....43 Magnum won't do those...
Like I said, the 355gr does just fine and its sectional density is equal to the 395gr .45 and it pushes it 200fps faster. The .45 really only comes into its own in the custom five-shots and FA's.


I'm already invested in .45's so...
We finally get to the real reason.

The 360gr and 395gr loading data for the .454 is dumbed down just like nearly all .454 load data and factory loads are a bit dumbed down to accommodate double action revolvers now chambered for it. Granted real full pressure loads are pretty unpleasant to shoot, even in a FA or other purpose built single action, but at least you can get the empty cartridges to extract reliably. Double actions especially the one with 6 chambers, seem to have trouble with this. Of course trying to punch all of them out at the same time has a lot to do with this.

As a side note you argue that the .454 only comes into it's own in specialized guns like the FA etc, but fail to note that the super heavy 355gr .44 Magnum load you keep touting is, as far as I can tell, not loaded by anyone and all the +P+ .44 Magnum loads are limited to only certain revolvers as well. So in effect they are just as specialized.

Oh not that it makes a big difference I just re-checked the SD game laws on suitable firearms for elk season, and I was off by 100ft-lbs. The regulation calls for a minimum of 1,700ft-lbs at the muzzle, and a caliber of .243 or greater. Soft points or expanding ammo only.

CD:
Let's keep this on the facts. CraigC, like many gun folks, seems in love with his caliber. That's fine, and God Bless him. I see NO reason that in the real world the .44 isn't as good as the .45.

In fact, my first choice WAS the .44 Special, loading low end .44 magnum loads, with a 240 grain bullet. At the time, weren't enough guns. When I bought my .45 Colt/Linebaugh I did it because the .45 ACP offered cheap bullets that would work in both, and that I only stocked one size bullets.

I tried the .44 to begin with, but, at the time, couldn't find a .44 CCW that would stand up to constant shooting I did not find.

The bottom line is this:
"The .45 really only comes into its own in the custom five-shots and FA's. "

However, just as you accuse us of mantra from the old days, so is this.
SRH's, Alaskans, etc. have changed the game. However, they aren't easy to find, least not here. BFR has helped.

Bottom line is the .44 works at reasonable pressures. So does the .454.
Look at 4227 and H110, and take the minimum pressure loads. The difference between the min and max aren't much, and the extra recoil and pressure not worth the effort. Or are they, for accuracy???????

Bottom line is I see them as real close.

However, load the .45 Colt case to .44 magnum pressures and that opens the gap. What are you going to shoot that is going to know the difference?

If it's that close, or you want to use the .454 at max, be my guest. We have a guy around here with a bunch of cape buffalos with the .454. He likes the long range flat for Africa.

I do have a friend, thank God for him, that has taken more game, and just about everything on the planet, with a .44 magnum. He uses 185 grain LFN style bullets, at 1900 fps. On good days now, he can put a cylinder on a
playing card, at 100 yards.

I've never asked him why he picked the .44, but I think it's time I did. I know his answer already. It works.

Also, with the powderpuff recoil of 185's in a hunting gun, at 1900 fps, you can shoot a LOT of them, and still have normal arms, and no nerve damage.

That said, I got near the same ballistics with a .05 cent hard cast bullet, in the .45 Colt, with a full case of H110. Anyone want to try and quantify the difference between a 185 .44 at 1900 fps, and a 230 grain 45 at 1800 fps?

I PROMISE the only ones that can are dead.

I'd like to hear Ross Seyfrieds' and Bob Munden's opinion of the .45 Colt. There is another guy that shoots .45 pretty well, Jerry something...

Anyone want to argue with them?

CraigC:
Why no .430" automatic cartridge that is as popular as the .45 ACP>?

1700? That's great. the .500JRH has guys saying it kills like a .375 H&H rifle. That should do the trick. The guys are in Texas, and they have an exotic game ranch.. They get to see
2000 pound animals getting hammered, mainly bison.

For what it's worth:
Loading the 240 grain Hornady JHP in .44 ALWAYS GAVE me the warm and fuzzies. That big, long bullet, for me, is the bottom line for defense. Everyone that ever attacked me was the size of a BIG hog, and, if I had it to do again, the 240 grain JHP's WOULD WORK. I KNOW IT.

Recoil and pressure (which go hand in hand in my experience) are sometimes worth the trouble for certain applications, but not for everyday recreational shooting. That is one of the many reasons I reload my own, so I can tailor the ammo to what my intended use is.

You mention enjoying the 255-260gr .45 bullet in the 1200-1300fps range, and I have to agree with you. Quite powerful for most reasonable uses, and frankly I can shoot those all day with no discomfort. I find them to be pretty pleasant actually, and I find myself shooting more rounds loaded at that power level than any other loading. Albeit I do it in .454 brass, so I have to use a bit more powder to get there, but I already have plenty of .454 brass and prefer to keep it simple that way.

CD: I have a history with Bob Baker. That said, genius skips a generation.:D

His dad, and Casull had an idea and they made it work.

The FA 83 in .454 is common, and therefore, the only one of the calibers that is really reasonably priced. I slowly save money, and when I see a FA in this area for a good price I buy it. You want a 500 dollar gun for 600 dollars, or a 2500 dollar gun for a 1000????:eek::what:;)

Quality is incredible, and, compared to a ruger, it's worth 8 times the price.
BFR's are more rare here then FA's, and priced higher. Should say something about the quality.

For perspective:
The .45 Colt at 260 grains and 950 fps was considered a war standard in 1900 to kill HORSES. We are talking about upping the velocity 25%, and energy way more.

I have 500 rounds of .500JRH at 430 grains, 950 fps, or more.
Lee Jurras says the 420 grain .475 L at 1050 fps, 16 grains of HS-6, IRRC is enough for ANYTHING, and recoils like a .45 Super.

I'm talking spots for folks that disagree. Bring yourself, or some animals that can handle that...

Out of curiosity where is "here" for you?

I have handled both the BFR and the Freedom Arms, and the BFR was tempting but overall the workmanship on the FA was, in my estimation, better so that is what I now own. I would not mind owning a BFR though, the one I was able to look at was a nice gun, and certainly far superior to a Ruger.

I have heard that Bob Baker is kind of a hard headed individual, but I have had no dealings with him. I have only called the factory once to order taller front sights, and they offered to put me on the phone with him to hash out what I needed.

You mention being able to pick up the FA's on the cheap, well relatively speaking at least. I notice that same phenomenon with a lot of big bore revolvers, they don't seem to hold their value as well as others. This might have a lot to do with people who buy them to show off to their buddies with at the range, or otherwise brag up. Then they find out that their previous experience shooting a 9mm or .40S&W is woefully inadequate for the bucking, stinging, sharp recoiling hand-cannon they just bought that is plotting ways to smack them in the face every time they jerk the trigger. Most of these guys don't reload so they can't tailor ammo for their actual needs, and they also can't afford to feed the beast enough to train with it and hit anything. So the gun ends up collecting dust until one day the nimrod comes to the realization that the hand-cannon is worthless to him, and he sells it off for cheap.

Then you step in.

Back to the OP question:

Question is about ammo:

I had planned to use mostly hand loaded hot 45LC for deer hunting, and most applications, and only us 454 when power was needed, or wanted for "fun".

Some have suggested using 454 brass exclusively. This would mean "downloading" it for lighter, lower recoil rounds, as I do not want or need the full force and abuse of the 454 power all the time.

This would avoid the issue of the "crud ring" that causes 454 brass to stick when fired after 45LC. But could it cause reduced accuracy?

Pros/Cons???

Don

...but fail to note that the super heavy 355gr .44 Magnum load you keep touting is, as far as I can tell, not loaded by anyone and all the +P+ .44 Magnum loads are limited to only certain revolvers as well. So in effect they are just as specialized.
In near about every post I've made about those loads I've also stipulated that they are at standard pressures. They also fit very nicely into standard length Ruger .44 cylinders. Nothing "special" about it.


CraigC, like many gun folks, seems in love with his caliber.
It has less to do with my affinity for the .44's and much more to do with the crap that .45 fans tend to regurgitate from a 30yr old Linebaugh article. I'm sorry but all the "better performance, less pressure" and "the .45 is better with heavier bullets" that people keep repeating, including yourself, is complete nonsense. I have four .45Colts and I love them, I just don't drink the Kool Aid.


Why no .430" automatic cartridge that is as popular as the .45 ACP>?
Because the Army asked for a .45cal cartridge in 1873, vs the .44 rimfire that Colt offered in the Open Top. The Colt SAA .45 was born months thereafter. So when their shiny new .38 DA's did a terrible job of stopping folks, they went back to the .45 with the 1911 and the rest is history. However, whatever the hell .45ACP bullets have to do with this conversation I have no idea.

Well, I guess I learned something from that debate: mostly that people have strong opinions, and particular situations, different from my own.

Basic question is about ammo. I am getting the 454/45 SRHH asap.
I may in a year or 2 also get a 44mag SRH or similar.
Waaay down the line, if I find a great deal on an FA, I may pick one up, but doubt I will need one. For now, I doubt I can go wrong w/ the deals I have on either the 454/45 SRHH or the 44mag SRHH.

For NOW, for ammo, I will be getting about 500 rounds of cowboy 45LC included as part of the deal on the gun, and 40 rounds of 454 thrown in.

So, I think for now, instead of buying 454 brass, I will train with 45LC cowboy, and start reloading 45 brass up to 260 grns at 1200 fps.
I will have plenty of free 45 brass that way. I can mark boxes and cases as HOT to avoid putting in the Judge, and clean the chambers fairly before using 454.
As I go along, I will accumulate 454 brass, to start reloading that.

I can use the same bullets w/ 45LC as w/ 454, right? Does this sound like a sound plan? If so, with this plan in mind, what bullets/powders do you rec for 45LC medium hot loads, and where do I get the best deal on em?

I can use the same bullets w/ 45LC as w/ 454, right?Yes, except some .45 jacketed bullets are made for the Casull and .460 S&W and don't expand any anything you can sanely achieve with .45 Colt.

So, what would be good bullets I could use for both 454 and 45LC? Or do i need to specialize for the 2?
I mostly want to drop deer on the spot. I know bullet placement is key, but what bullets make em deader quicker? Also, price factor?

I can use the same bullets w/ 45LC as w/ 454, right?

Yep.

Does this sound like a sound plan?

Yep.

If so, with this plan in mind, what bullets/powders do you rec for 45LC medium hot loads, and where do I get the best deal on em?

I cast my own HP bullets which come out weighing 265gr. I have used both 2400 (18.0 - 18.5gr) and 4227 (21.0 - 22.0gr). Last year I shot a large doe with the 18.0gr load. Neck shot with complete penetration and dropped instantly. Any cast bullet 255gr or heavier at 1000+fps is gonna drop any deer in North America with a well placed shot. Deer are just not that hard to kill.

Don

So, what would be good bullets I could use for both 454 and 45LC? Or do i need to specialize for the 2?
I mostly want to drop deer on the spot. I know bullet placement is key, but what bullets make em deader quicker? Also, price factor?
If I were going to choose one bullet for both 45 Colt and 454 Casull, I'd be hard pressed not to pick the 270 grain SAA. It's made from an RCBS mold, but several commercial casters are now offering it. Here's the mold: https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3367&route=C12J059

Here's a picture of the bullet. This one was hollow pointed.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Hammerdown77/732923de.jpg

Here's a 5-shot group using it in 454 out of my Freedom Arms 83.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Hammerdown77/64f6dca9.jpg

USSR has it down.

Make sure that the grips match your hand size. With .45 colt up I think grip size is critical to making it fun to shoot the gun. You can adjust the grip size up by wrapping tape, cloth, whatever around the grip. When you can shoot the gun without having to worry about the gun ending up in your forehead, and your hands aren't death gripping the gun, you have the right grip size.

If you don't cast your own:
First your friend probably can really help you, since he's setup in both calibers, and therefore has been shopping. First check with him.

Second get the gun and ask him what he shoots, and try it. Decide if that's good enough. If you what something hotter work up to what you think you want.
Want something milder, same thing. Once you find a load level you like,
start shopping for bullets.

The general consensus is a .45 LFN at 1150 fps does something like this:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/45deer01045coltentry1150fpshardcast.jpg

As the velocity goes up, and the animals get heavier, velocity with cast bullets helps. If they are cast right, they mushroom a bit:
These are 430 grain bullets from a buffalo, at 1350 fps, in .500JRH:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/H%20H%20375%20buffalo/Recoveredbullets500JRHor500MAX.jpg
It illustrates the point.

So once you decide what speed you are comfortable shooting what weight bullet then start your massive shopping expedition.

Best is to start locally, so ask your friend. Saves shipping. Dillon
has always been good to me.

If you have a place to cast your own, that's a great way to go.

Lube is a science in itself, or was in my day.

Velocity is key, because how hard the bullet is cast is going to determine if it opens up or not at the speed you are shooting.

Also the elephant, and it's a REAL elephant, in the closet is generally the cheaper, low velocity designed bullets aren't gas checked, and will lead your barrel as you increase velocity. You need to talk to the caster about if the bullets are designed for the velocity you want to shoot or not.

The speed you decide on may not require a really hard cast bullet or a gas check to prevent leading.

General rule: 454 velocity equals gas check or very hard cast.

And Hunttolive your plan sounds near perfect.

Your friend is setting you up the way you should be setup. Plenty of .45 Colt
and enough .454 brass to figure out you don't need it.

By the way this all got started when Hunttolive was shocked by the price of .454 brass, and was considering the .44 Magnum instead.

I guess that idea is done, and he's now on the .45 Colt wagon.

Since it has something to do with what you are doing, here is the article CraigC refers to:
the .45 Cult:
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

It's good for you since it illustrates a reasonable pressure limit for .45 Colt
brass, with a tight chambered gun, and which guns to run it in.

CraigC has a point about being a bit upset with the comments made by the 45 guys. You'll notice this article really isn't about .45 Colt, but a special
round, somewhere in between .45 Colt and .454 that has a maximum pressure of 32,000 cup. It starts with .45 Colt brass, but requires a gun with tight cylinders, and one that is very strong, something like a .454 revolver would be. If the .454 you are buying is designed to take up to 60,000 cup, and then add something for a safety margin, it's going to take your loads all day, unless you do something really stupid.

Linebaugh's article is addressing the issues you are discussing.
When I first talked to him on the phone in Cody, Wyoming he was living in the sticks, making guns, and used a S&W Mountain gun to kill deer as did his wife. IIRC he was using a 260 grain Keith at 1100-1200 fps, and it just works. He also had his son killing deer with that same bullet at 900 fps.
Dustin has turned into a great shot, and gunsmith in his own right.

I'm looking through that article and he pretty much gives you everything you need for loading .45 Colt in a .454.

READ it learn it, and try it.

Funny but the .44 special stuff I used to load was much like the .45 Colt/Linebaugh in the article. I would load 240 grain HP's at around 1000 fps
in .44 Special brass. Worked great until the gun, Charter Arms bulldog, shot loose. There is a great place for the .44 in guns designed for it, 5 shot, CCW
at around the 30k pressure mark. It does the same thing the .45 Colt/Linebaugh does, but in a smaller framed, better concealable revolver.

That said, in a way, both the .44 Special and .45 Colt cases are wasted as CCW, because the cases are so big, and with modern powders you can get
near the same ballistics using .45 Super level loads(originally .451 Detonics)
or 10MM.

This is the same concept: Modern brass in a strong gun, and you can run .45 Autos in the same 25-32K range, with similar weight bullets, but in a slim
.45 ACP 1911 type gun.

I'm getting old. MY STARTING point thought was to pick one bullet weight and design and shoot it all the time. Yes, a 260 grain cast bullet at whatever velocity you decide on will
work for EVERYTHING. You may want to settle on 310's, but I think that's overkill for deer, etc.

Decide on one load, use it for EVERYTHING. Get to know exactly what it's going to do, and get really good with it.

CraigC,

Not sure how you can claim a .44 Mag will spit out a 355gr bullet at 1600fps under standard pressures. You claim 200fps faster than a .454 with a 395gr bullet, and Double Tap claims to load one to 1400fps. Funny that Buffalo Bore lists a 340gr .44 Mag at a bit over 1600fps and call it +P+ and restrict use to only select guns. Your 355gr standard pressure 1600fps magic load sounds pretty special. I suppose they would work in a Smith&Wesson M29 just fine? If not then they are specialized non standard ammo for only certain guns. Just like maxed out .454 loads.

Not sure how you can claim a .44 Mag will spit out a 355gr bullet at 1600fps under standard pressures.
I don't know where you got that but I never made such claims. Go back and read the posts again. I was referring to the .45Colt running at 32,000psi.

Reading comprrhension fail.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST IS NOT COMPLETELY ON TOPIC, SINCE IT RELATES TO GUN CHOICES IN .45 COLT. THAT IS RELATED TO LOADS FOR THE .45/454.
CD'S POST:
"Out of curiosity where is "here" for you?

I have handled both the BFR and the Freedom Arms, and the BFR was tempting but overall the workmanship on the FA was, in my estimation, better so that is what I now own. I would not mind owning a BFR though, the one I was able to look at was a nice gun, and certainly far superior to a Ruger.

...
You mention being able to pick up the FA's on the cheap, well relatively speaking at least. I notice that same phenomenon with a lot of big bore revolvers, they don't seem to hold their value as well as others. This might have a lot to do with people who buy them to show off to their buddies with at the range, or otherwise brag up. Then they find out that their previous experience shooting a 9mm or .40S&W is woefully inadequate for the bucking, stinging, sharp recoiling hand-cannon they just bought that is plotting ways to smack them in the face every time they jerk the trigger. Most of these guys don't reload so they can't tailor ammo for their actual needs, and they also can't afford to feed the beast enough to train with it and hit anything. So the gun ends up collecting dust until one day the nimrod comes to the realization that the hand-cannon is worthless to him, and he sells it off for cheap.

Then you step in."

CraigC has a good point about the .45 Cult. They go to Linebaugh's article.
MOST of Linebaughs' customs start as Ruger .44's. The magnum cylinder can be bored out to tight .45 Specs. Rugers own .45 Colt cylinders are often too big to be recut, so you end up having to add the expense of a new cylinder to the equation to get a tight .45 Colt, in the .45 Colt you bought from Ruger.

This may have changed since I think the equipment they use to cut cylinders
is now better. However, they may just cut the .45 Colt big to work with any brass. Don't know these days.

BFR's I have handled don't have that problem. As for quality, the BFR's are excellent, and a great value for the money. I have shot Jack Huntington's
.500JRH from the BFR custom factory, and had another friend order one.
They come in around 1500-1800 dollars and aren't Rugers anymore. They are very tight, hand built customs worth every dime. Compared to an FA
I would compare price, and value. The 83's are 4 shot guns, unless you get
a holster that holds the hammer right, and you trust the 1/8th position
'safety'.

That said, I've owned 3 FA 83's, still own two, and no BFR's.

CD: I think you have the scenario down. Add to that that guys get great ideas on custom revolvers, like huge barrel bands:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/FAMILY%20PORTRAITS/FamilyPortrait1.jpg

Top to bottom:
My custom .45 Colt/Linebaugh redone by Jack Huntington with custom grips
and blued.

The following two guns are customs, a .475 Linebaugh on a FA 83 done before FA did the .475 Linebaugh, by Jack Huntington. I'll say that some of the stuff with Baker came from a couple issues.
(First is the .475 Linebaugh, now with a smaller rim then Linebaugh designed it with. This was done by Jack Huntington to fit in the FA revolvers, and ended in litigation over what is the .475 Linebaugh. The .475 Linebaugh is now the .475 Linebaugh with a smaller rim done by Jack Huntington to fit
the FA 83, industry standard wise.)

(The other is the .500JRH which predated the .500 Wyoming Express.
The late one to the party, the .50WE looks nearly identical to the .500JRH,
with a belt added because someone kept crunching cases reloading.:rolleyes:)

The next gun is a Ruger Maximum, converted to .500 Linebaugh Maximum.

That said, I got a custom Douglas barrel on both guns, but with huge barrel bands, thanks to the previous owner. I think the barrel bands kept them from selling. Both guns have been reworked by JRH, the FA 83 and .500 Maximum Ruger so they now look like real guns, not cartoons.

One issue that seems contrary to your theory is I bought a FA 252 for 1100 dollars. The shop wanted 2000, but no one bites at that price. I did sell it for 1500. Also every sale has **** tax and fees so the 1100 turns into 1200 real fast. Appears expensive single actions just don't sell around here.
NorCal east bay.

The only BFR's I've scene in 15 years were 1000 dollars in .475 Linebaugh.
Nice guns, but I already have a tack driving .475, and the barrel lengths were the same, 7.5"

I said all that to point out the situation I'm in looking for .45 Colt.

Since I had the Seville, not having the ability to use heavy .45 Colt loads for me would be a problem. So, I'm stuck looking for .45 Colts around here.
Mostly clones for action shooting, and they aren't suitable. The smaller Ruger .45's aren't either.

So I end up ordering a new Ruger, and that's nearly the price of a BFR, and may have big chambers. :banghead:
I've been looking for a BFR in .45 Colt/454 for a LONG time. Haven't found one.

I think I'm more likely to end up with a .454 FA 83 for around 1000 dollars then find a used BFR .454/45 Colt. More of them made. We'll see.

Just order a BFR if that is what you desire.

Thanks PRSR, HMRDWN, and USSR, etc.
CraigC, I'll be sure to look you up again when I am gettin that 44Mag down the line.

What is best way, with basic (non-power) cleaning tools, to clean out crud ring in 454/45 SRHH?
I have all basic cleaning tool for rifles/blackpowder.
What will I need 2 get for SRHH 454/45?.

Anyone think I am crazy to go the uploading 45LC route, instead of the downloading 454 route?
Or, as long as I keep the hot 45LC out of where it can't go, and clean gun,
is this a good, and $ saving way to go?

Also, on cast bullets, there are diferent hardnesses? How do I tell how "hard" they are, so for the velocity I want to shoot, that they will expand?
If not shooting over 1300 fps, I do not need jacketed bullets, right? At higher velocities, do I?
Any advantage of jacketed hollow points over cast bullets? My main game is deer and blackbear/hogs.

What is best way, with basic (non-power) cleaning tools, to clean out crud ring in 454/45 SRHH?
I have all basic cleaning tool for rifles/blackpowder.
What will I need 2 get for SRHH 454/45?.

All you need is a .45 brass brush, wrap some cloth around it and wet the cloth with the cleaning solution of your choice. Same diameter chambers (just longer for .454), so one .45 caliber brush serves both .454 and .45LC.


Also, on cast bullets, there are diferent hardnesses? How do I tell how "hard" they are, so for the velocity I want to shoot, that they will expand?
If not shooting over 1300 fps, I do not need jacketed bullets, right? At higher velocities, do I?
Any advantage of jacketed hollow points over cast bullets? My main game is deer and blackbear/hogs.

Since you will buying your cast bullets, most manufacturers list the hardness. You really don't need them any harder than BHN 12. IMHO there is no advantage to jacketed bullets. They are more expensive and will not penetrate as deeply as a good hard cast bullet. Just MHO.

Don

I had heard that at high velocities, jacketing was needed to prevent fouling of rifled barrels, and also that they could put game down quicker.

I may get a mould, my neighbor has a smelter he uses regularly to make sinkers, and has some bullet moulds. I like the 270 grn one Hammerdown recommended. So, about how much do cast bullets cost to buy pre-made, vs making them? If paying about $90 for a good mould, after how many bullets would I start saving $? Is it worth going through that whole process? I guess it would be kind of cool...

What do you figure the recoil would be like at 1100fps w/ those 270 grn hard casts?

Also, for cleaning, could i use a 50 cal wire brush?

I assume I clean the cylendars with it open as if I were loading it.
Anything special about cleaning the barrel? What do I need to watch out for when cleaning, so as not to neglect something, or foul up the revolver, without taking it all apart?

You can get a decent bullet mold (Lee) for $20, including the handles. A better iron mold (much more spendy) may hunt better cuz it will have deeper lube grooves and sharper corners.

Buying cast bullets will cost you from 5¢ each up to however much you want to spend. I don't know what heavy jacketed bullets will cost; I'm guessing they start at about 20¢ and go up real fast.

You also need a size and lubing press.

Any casters want to jump in on what they use for lube, what it costs?
Also when leading occurs, with what powders and what velocities?
For the 270's out of a SRH:

Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps for that load.

Compare:
Full sized 1911, Kimber, with 230 grain 1100 fps .45 Super:

Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

.45 ACP 230 @ 950:
Recoil Energy of 7 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 14 fps.

310's at 1200 fps:

Recoil Energy of 16 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

To get .44 Magnum type recoil you need to go to 325's @ 1350 fps:

Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 21 fps.

Here is the real advantage of the .454/45:

The 310's Linebaugh swears by, and says are enough for anything in the 48.

You have a very effective round, with very little recoil. Likewise the 270's.

The 325's at 1350 fps are a handful, and your grips better fit properly to your hands to shoot them accurately. That load was THE hog load
for the boys in Hawaii when I was there. On the big island they have nothing behind them, as a general rule, to worry about hitting after the bullet zips through the hog.

My view of hollow points is they have to be VERY heavy for caliber to penetrate properly. Or if the target doesn't offer much resistance, very thin jacketed to expand.

I have played around with HP's from Hawk bullets, and some speers, just because they were cheap, and fun. Blems on sale, IIRC.

Here is a .475 Linebaugh, loaded with a minimum charge of AA9, that still gave it 1550 fps, and the bullet is 275 grains. It was shot into sand:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/quartersand275grainbullet.jpg

Something appealing about getting a hole the size of a 2 bore rifle bullet, out of a pistol.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

Hawk has a .452 example that expands the same, or bigger.
You can adjust the penetration with jacketed bulled by changing the jacket thickness.

The problem with jacketed bullets is you order them light, with a thin jacket for deer. Your out hunting and the mother of all hogs, Hogzilla shows up. All of a sudden you have penetration problems.

The advantage of cast bullets is they just work. Maybe not as fast as an ideal match of jacketed bullet to game, but they work all the time, and don't fail, except if improperly cast.

Also Hawk recommends at MINIMUM, 1200 fps for their jacketed bullets to expand. I would keep that in mind with any hollow point you use for game.

If I was going hunting with a .45 and Hawk bullets I'd be looking at the heavy end of the scale for HP's, so if I ran into something big with tusks or claws I would still get decent penetration.

That would mean 300-350 grain bullets, and getting those going 1200 fps, ideally 1350 fps, is going to take you WAY up the recoil and cost scale.

Thanks PRSR, HMRDWN, and USSR, etc.
CraigC, I'll be sure to look you up again when I am gettin that 44Mag down the line.

What is best way, with basic (non-power) cleaning tools, to clean out crud ring in 454/45 SRHH?
I have all basic cleaning tool for rifles/blackpowder.
What will I need 2 get for SRHH 454/45?.

Anyone think I am crazy to go the uploading 45LC route, instead of the downloading 454 route?
Or, as long as I keep the hot 45LC out of where it can't go, and clean gun,
is this a good, and $ saving way to go?

Also, on cast bullets, there are diferent hardnesses? How do I tell how "hard" they are, so for the velocity I want to shoot, that they will expand?
If not shooting over 1300 fps, I do not need jacketed bullets, right? At higher velocities, do I?
Any advantage of jacketed hollow points over cast bullets? My main game is deer and blackbear/hogs.
I have no issues with shooting .45 colt in a SRH, but if you are going to go hot why not use .454. Then just use standard pressure .45 colt for range use. You have the gun that was the solution to people hot loading .45 colt.

Mt Baldy is one commercial caster who offers the 270 SAA bullet. It's $108 for 500, or $24 for 100. Not including shipping.

http://www.mtbaldybullets.com/asp/products.asp

The .45 270 SAA bullet is a good one. I ordered one of HiHec's hollowpoint moulds, which is a copy of it, and am extremely pleased with it.

Don

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNzjiDAgOdtIgvFPTDcuEYceXINFgnnU8vT-BrPw181kWKXrU7xA

USSR, if you hard cast these why would you need the hollow point? Do yours expand with this? I cast the 260 grain LBT Keith bullet(without the hollow point) and never have had any problems.
Steve

Longer bullet? VERY accurate? MIGHT expand...

I suspect they work VERY well.

Prosser, I disagree if they are cast hard enough to penetrate deeply. Evidently, you don't cast much. Starting out at .45 diameter in a handgun, don't think expansion is a priority.
Steve

USSR, if you hard cast these why would you need the hollow point? Do yours expand with this? I cast the 260 grain LBT Keith bullet(without the hollow point) and never have had any problems.

Casting hollowpoint bullets is quite a bit more involved than nonhollowpoints. Antimony makes for hard bullets, but when you use an antimony alloy to make hollowpoints, they fracture instead of mushroom. So, you've got to use an alloy that eliminates or seriously reduces the antimony and replaces it with tin as the hardener, and match the BHN to the velocity you intend to achieve. Elmer Keith used a 16-1 lead/tin alloy (BHN of 11) for his magnum handgun rounds which reached 1400+fps. Since I am loading for my S&W 25-5 at a velocity between 1000 and 1100fps, I like to use an alloy of somewhere between 20-1 and 25-1. This is a BHN of somewhere around 10. When I cast nonhollowpoint SWC's (255gr and 270gr), I use a antimony based alloy with just a little tin to aid in mould fill out. Hope that helps.

Don

S.B. I tried it a long time ago. At the time it was cheaper to buy cast bullets.

I'm asking people that do cast for their information, so this kid knows what he's getting into. Casting isn't THAT simple.

I'm just guessing from a shooters point of view why one would use the longer 270 rather then a 260 LFN.

I am aware that hard cast bullets can fail if cast too hard, when they hit bone.

People also fail to remember that the hollow point bullet makes for one very accurate round.

There is also the theory that hard cast heavy bullets kill so well because the
extra bullet length increases wound channel and energy transfer.

You are just now getting into the different metals required. It would be nice
if someone would go over the lubes they use, and their favorite sizing presses.

Thanks guys.
I appreciate the info on re-loading and casting.
For now it seems like just handloading will be enough of a new adventure, so I will buy cast bullets for now. Later I may try casting, and I will post a new thread about that in about a year provided I do not blow myself up re-loading first... ;-)

But I do still seek advice on bullets to use, understanding the differences between powders, etc. I have also heard that decent 45LC cases can usually be re-loaded at least 6 times or more. Does that sound about right?

I am liking the 270 SAA, and at 1100fps that seems like very managable recoil for a starting deer hunting round, and could also take a black bear, or average hog, yes? When do jacketed bullets give an advantage if ever?

Other bullets I should consider?

Also, I plan to use an Ultradot , either 1 inch, or 30 mm. Anyone used both?

I have 1" rings, and if the 30mm is not a ton better, am leaning towards the 1" ultradot.
With luck, I hope 2 b shooting my "new to me" 454/45 SRHH this wknd!

Consider anything you see out there that is on special, and cheap. That's one of the real fun parts of reloading: SHOPPING:D

I buy jacketed bullets when they are on sale, blems, etc. Heck, sometimes factory ammo can be the same or less then reloads.

When Hornady was angry at Buffalobore, 400 grain XTPs in .475 Linebaugh were going for 20 bucks for 20 rounds. When you start pricing cast bullets for the .475, you realized that that was about what a cast bullet load might cost you. For instance here the 420's are 50 cents each:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
Guess it depends if you have brass or not.

You can do a lot better than that. Hunter's Supply 412gr comes in at 37cents and 355's from Leadhead's are 25cents if you buy 1000 and those are gas checked. Even their 425's are only 34cents each. The caster I used when I lived in FL has 345's for 20cents each. I wouldn't use premium bullets from Beartooth or CBPC unless I was after large/dangerous game.

http://spacecoastbullets.com/products.htm

https://secure25.securewebsession.com/proshootpro.com/order.htm

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046113419/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-475-caliber-476-diameter-412-grain-lead-flat-nose

Thanks!
I am looking hard at those 250 grn Hornaday JHP's and also the cast 270 grn SAA's.

CraigC, you wrote before that these JHP's were great for putting deer down quick. What advantage do these have ov er cast bullets like the 270 SAA for deer?

What advantage, and for what game do the 270 SAA's take the prize?

The 270gr SAA is a great bullet designed by sixgun fancier Dave Scovill. I am primarily a cast bullet shooter and that includes hunting. They work very well for all game. On deer and hogs, virtually any decent 250-260gr SWC will do fine, it doesn't have to be the Scovill bullet and you don't have to cast your own to get good cast bullets. The Hunter's Supply 275gr LBT is also very good and has proved accurate in my guns. However, for light skinned medium game like deer, a good standard weight JHP does a little more tissue damage and anchors them a little quicker but they still tend to exit. Which is good. I happen to prefer the bonded core design of the Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl bullets over the XTP, which are sometimes likely to have jacket/core separation.

I like the looks of some of those LBT bullets from Hunter's Supply. I think they had a 190 grain 357 bullet that I wanted to try as well.

163 dollars for 1000 bullets, cast for the 454? I'd give leadhead a call. At those prices , that's what, 16 cents a bullet, how can you say no?

I'd look at their lighter .45 Colt bullets and just make sure they are cast hard enough for your uses, and velcoity.

Some of you may be relieved to know I actually got my "new to me" 454/45 SRHH 7.5" this wknd, and shot a cylendar of 454 through it, to c if the cases would still stick, and non did, they all loaded and exited smoothly. I then shot about 100 cowboy 45's and am getting ok at 20 yards w/ open sights, but still need to get the hang of easing the trigger back, and getting comfortable slowly squeezing the trigger until it goes off almost "by surprise" , instead of pulling the trigger.

It came w/ 1" rings. I still plan 2 get ultradot. The 30 mm rings will cost $80. Ideally, I would get the ultradot 30mm, but is that necessary?
I have the 1" rings, and doubt ruger will exchange them, as they are clearly used. How much advantage is there w/ the Ultradot 30, over the standard original 1" Ultradot? I hope to hunt deer this Nov, out to 50 yrds, with practice.

I have about 500 45 cases and some large pistol primers. I want to make 300 cheap bullets at about 1000 fps, and 200 of the type I'll hunt w/. I will hold off on casting bullets till nxt yr. So, what kind of bullets can I get cheapest for target (250 grn cowboy type) to re-load?
And what for hunting? I'm thinking either a 265 grn Keith, or something else w/ a large meplat, or the 270SAA or a 260grn JHP. Deer is main quarry this year. What is my best bet? Where to get?
Also, I would like to make some cast bullet rounds for slightly larger game. Perhaps the 270 SAA fits both purposes?

Thanks!

To answer a question you asked, you can usually reload pistol brass until it splits. If you're shooting light loads your brass will last a long time. Just roll it around in your fingers and check it out before you reload them.

Now for plinking and just plain fun you can go to the other end of the scale. The heaviest load that I've shot out of my Raging Bull .454 was a 405 gr. bullet. Something to try when you're out plinking.

Great to hear you got the gun.

I would look through this thread(I often wonder if you read all the posts, since many of your questions are answered in previous posts).

CC gave you excellent advice and excellent links.

Ask the guy you are going to reload with what he thinks.
Then get on the phone call some people, and order some bullets.

Have fun, get on it, and do some shooting.

So, now I've shot all the ammo that came w/ the gun, and am eager to make more. For now I had to order some Magtech 250 grn off the shelf.

I ordered a few hundred 250 grn hornaday xtp jhp's bullets to hand load for deer.

And PRSR, of course I read the posts. I am just trying to get more input, and as I move forward, refine the questions as I understand more. I also have not found or had anyone rec. where to get the cheapest regular cowboy practice bullets to make target re-loads.

Is the 270 SAA gas checked? What cast bullet under 300 grns can I use for : deer, black bear, hogs, and other large game? Does the 270 SAA fill those roles? The guy who sold me the gun recomends a keith bullet or anything with a large meplat. But he will be serving over seas for a few months.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14811-c110-g8-b0-p0-Hard_Cast_.45LC_.452_250gr_RNFP.aspx

130 per 1000, and they also have light plated bullets for 123.00 per thousand.

Shipping is usually the killer.

I bought these from Dillon

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/catid/5/pid/25275/Laser_Cast_Bullets_500_pk

Seem just fine, but you have to call for a price and availability now.

I'd try some light bullets and see how much of a difference at your loads, point of aim is, and determine if that's a way you want to go.

General rule: light bullets>less material>cheaper
Also:
Industry standard weight and design=massive production=lower price
For example 230 grain ball lead maybe cheaper then a 200 grain flat point.

YMMV.