[Nematocyst]

I own one of these (http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/26): a full-size black KA-BAR, straight edge with 7" blade.

I bought it a few years ago thinking that it might make a good camp utility knife.

Yet, I found that it was too large for most camp chores (cutting meat and veges, cutting cord, ripping the legs off of trousers, etc) and too small for larger chores - cutting small wood, clearing a camp, etc.

I'm sure that for a dedicated fighter, it's a good choice. But I'm not one of those.
And if I was, I'd prefer an 11" blade (for an overall sword length of 18" - search "short sword" in this forum).

Yet, I still keep this knife.
It sits on my bedside table (which I guess says something about how I might use it, at least in fantasy).

And I confess: I like the way it feels. Nothing rational there, just a feeling.

But I'm curious. Do you own such a knife? If so, why? How do you use it? How often do you use it? Is it a fav?

I'll cut to the chase: Why would someone who is not a combat specialist own this knife?
______

My background with blades.

I have two other knives that I use with far greater frequency.

1) Spyderco Manix 2 (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=418) is my EDC. Love that knife.
(Thanks for the recommendation J Shirley.)

2) SOG Seal Pup Elite (http://sogknives.com/store/E37T.html) is my camp knife. If I could have only one, this is it.
Keeps the sharp. Feels good. Small. Cuts meat, veges, small wood.
I could defend myself with it if the stick (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646068) fails.

[hso]

The knife wasn't designed to be a fighter. It was a Fighting/Utility knife based on the Marbles Ideal. It was simply the best design of the time that had fighting and utility characteristics. I own several knives and I own a couple of "KaBar"s for historical/sentimental reasons.

The handle is too round, the blade too thick, the balance off for a fighter. Plenty of people have used it in combat, but it isn't a fighter and it has been equaled or surpassed by plenty of other knives in both categories it was intended to serve. It has a great tradition and a huge emotional link to all the sacrifice made by the people in uniform who carried it, but don't let that cloud your eyes to knives that do more better. Take it to a modern cutting rodeo and it won't "make the cut".

[Owen Sparks]

I have the new 'Next Generation' version and it is billed as a fighting knife.

[hso]

Ka-Bar calls it the Next Generation Fighting/Utility which is the original name of the USMC knife. That's not quite the same.

There are tons of knives that can be used as a fighter, but that also isn't the same as a knife that is designed for that purpose primarily. The Bagwell bowies that Ontario used to manufacture are pure fighters with all the characteristics of knife designed and made for that purpose. The USMC F/U that became the MKII that became known as the "Kabar" has been used across the globe and has a great history, but there are better fighters.

[Piraticalbob]

I'll cut to the chase: Why would someone who is not a combat specialist own this knife?

1. It's relatively inexpensive. Thus a working man can afford it, and won't weep bitter tears if it gets lost, stolen or it breaks.

2. It set out to be a reasonable compromise in its role as a military knife. You can do a little bit of prying with it, opening crates and such; some light chopping: think brush/branches, not trees; you can hammer with it, using the pommel: think tent stakes, NOT nails; game/fish prep; and personal combat: blade long enough to reach vital organs, pommel can deal a stunning blow.

3. It is comparatively easy to sharpen.

4. While not stainless, it is reasonably rust-resistant if kept clean and dry.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // All that I can add is the cool factor wearing it when I take out the M1 Carbine.

I have better knives but a $15.00 piece of history that is still serviceable is a joy to carry. Mine gets used around the house and sometimes deer hunting (more for nostaliga then practical use)

I like the older ones like this U.S.M.C. but to each their own.
164919164923

^Anyone venture a guess as to D.O.M.?^

[hso]

content,

Who is the manufacturer. Post a pic of the opposite side when you get the chance.

[content]

hso,
made in Olean N.Y. by KA-BAR

[Nematocyst]

Great discussion, guys. Just what I'd hoped for.

Hso, thanks for clarifying the intent of this knife. Very useful.
I had fallen under the same semantic marketing spell that Owen did.

Piraticalbob, thoughtful and thought-provoking response.

I suspect we've only scratched the surface of stories and details about this knife.

Please, continue ...

[Nematocyst]

For the record, link embedded:

"The Bagwell bowies that Ontario used to manufacture (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/668410-Vicksburg-Bowie-Bagwell-Fortress-Bagwell-Gambler) are pure fighters with all the characteristics of knife designed and made for that purpose."

[rcmodel]

At last count I have 5 of them in my knife collection from WWII through Viet Nam, made by Ka-Bar, Camillus, and Utica.
Also known as the U.S. Navy MK 2.

I still grab one every once and awhile for working in the yard.

As stated, it was not the best utility knife, or the best chopping knife, or the best fighting knife, or the best anything else.

But in a pinch, it could serve just about any need a combat solder had for a belt knife.

Plus, it was light to carry, cheap to make, used a minimum of scarce steel during the war years, and could be sharpened on a flat rock if thats all you had.

It has served the U.S. military continuously for around 70 years now, so it fits its intended role pretty darn well!

rc

[ArfinGreebly]

I have a couple or three knives in that class, one by Camillus, two by Ontario, and maybe another, but I'd have to look.

Mine are not a pattern match to the USMC "fighter" but they are similar enough (thick, poorly balanced, too round) to be in the same class.

I got mine when I was just beginning to research general-purpose knives for outdoor & camping use.

I have mentioned in earlier threads that "large knives don't work well" for me. It was through testing knives like this that I discovered that fact. They also don't take a fabulous edge.

I also have a few Bowie patterned knives, and I discovered the same thing about them. Too big for me to use effectively. Edge capability varies from one to the next, but none of mine are fabulous.

Now the Don Llewellyn fighter that I have, while it is still a bit big for me, is much lighter, a lot better balanced, and is sharp as the dickens. It's a knife you can actually use, as long as you're willing to pay attention to your fingers.

I don't rightly know what I'm going to do with all my "too big" knives. One of them has sentimental value, as it was re-handled by a friend of mine (the blade is still not great, but the handle is really nice).

I will tell you one thing for certain, though: I'm not keeping that Glock field knife. While it might serve as a trowel or a tent peg (heck, even a pry bar), it pretty much sux for any of the more common knife applications. It's ironic, really. Glock got his opportunity to compete for a new service pistol design based on the success of his field knife. Yeah, the knife came first. There must be a serious QA glitch. Either that, or my sharpening skills work for everything except a Glock.

So, for me, I'll be sticking with the six-inch and under blades.

[rcmodel]

Your observation of the Glock "knife" is quite correct.
It sucks as any sort of knife besides a bayonet, which some of them were.

I think they were wanting to buy a mine probe, and wrote the contract for a field knife by mistake.
Or perhaps a "field knife" designed by a committee??

Only explanation I can come up with.

The Glock sheath is very well thought out though.

rc

[p2000sk]

I have been told by one who ventures afield, the KaBar is often used "off label" for a decent shave.

[sixgunner455]

I have one that is a veteran of a lot of crap. When I got it, it was in a box of tools and knives and supplies my dad inherited from his uncle. The leather washer handle was rotten and falling apart, the pommel was gone, and the blade had rust pits.

It is a PAL. :( And the only one of those I have ever seen.

I rebuilt it into a decent field knife, but it is definitely not the same. It has a soldered, single-sided brass guard, a micarta handle, and reground (flat) bevels. I blued the blade, as well.

I think that anyone who wants a piece of US military history would do well to own one. I think lots of people out there have blades with less utility in their collections because they just like them.

[Nematocyst]

I'm getting the impression that this is the SAK of 7" fixed blades.

Not the top of the list, but a step above that non-stainless blade
that you bought at the army surplus store in 1975 that's rusted now.

Capable of cutting small wood, veges, skinning/butchering, digging a hole,
could do a fight in a pinch (even though you'd rather have a gun or a stick).

Much better knives out there, but if this is all you got, it'll work.

Word?

[SlamFire1]

People love big knives, they make great weapons. As a camp tool, if you want an axe, carry an axe. Big knives are inefficient in chopping things.

You can do a lot of things with a Swiss Army knife and a good hatchet.

The bottom one is a WW2 era Kabar

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/knives/ModernKabarnexttoUSNMKIIbyKabar.jpg

[Nematocyst]

Interesting how the Kabar has evolved over time.

Here's what mine looks like. The Benchmade folder was replace by the Spyderco.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=165009&stc=1&d=1337910890

[Ryden]

I agree that it's not really a very useful size.

I have a modern knife of about the same configuration.
7" blade 1/4" thick
http://www.addnature.com/assets/product_images/F/L_FALLKNIVEN_A1.jpg

I use it as a small chopper, a prybar, a spade, a hammer, a gouge, in fact I use it in all kinds of way but very rarely as a knife.

A normal camping/hunting knife shouldn't be longer than 4", actually 3" is just about perfect as you can lay it along your index finger and work inside an animal without exposing the tip and damaging the guts.

There's nothing you can't do with a 3" blade, the trend over here for the moment is that you absolutely need a 12" double-edged, preferably serrated, pig sticker while hunting wild boars so you will be able to put a wounded boar to death.

Experience shows that an ordinary 3" drop point knife does the job without any problems as long as you keep it sharp

I carry one of these and it's all you need
I wouldn't feel at a disadvantage if I had to fight with it either, It's all about placement, not about length and all the major arteries could be cut less than one inch deep.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldthc0KoZn1qzgbrdo1_500.jpg

[hso]

No, the MkI is a much better "SAK of fixed blades" or the Mora or the ...

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/128/kabar017.jpg
Image from Bladeforums

[Nematocyst]

^ Whoa!!! Purty!

What's it?!

(I mean the blade.)

[Nematocyst]

Searching for it on the Kabar site.

Can't find it, but right now,
this one's (http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/123) got my attention. :scrutiny:

Looks to be the same blade (but serrated; yes, I confess, I like serrated)
with a different handle.

[rcmodel]

Rat Cheer, lots of them.

Just keep clicking through the pages.

http://www.kabar.com/knives/military-tactical

rc

[Nematocyst]

But the unserrated version (http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/122) is impressive, also.

What I like most about the Kabars (above my beloved SOG SPE) is the pommel.

Which leads to another question:
What are the pros and cons of serration?

[rcmodel]

If you want a Navy Mark 2, get the real deal.
They are still out there.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-BAR-Camillus-Combat-Knife-/160805178727?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2570bc4d67

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-US-Navy-USN-Mk2-Fighting-Knife-Camillus-w-Scbd-Mark-2-VG-Sea-bee-/110883399770?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item19d12a685a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-WW2-CAMILLUS-MK2-Navy-USN-Fighting-Knife-Marked-Guard-/251012199206?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a717e3326

Repro:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-BAR-100-YEAR-ANNIVERSARY-USMC-FIGHTING-KNIFE-/290649954934?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ac165a76

rc

[Nematocyst]

On more reflection,
I've come to understand that
I want both the Mk1 and the Mk2.

And if there's an Mk3, I'll take one of those, too.

[hso]

There are better knives than either for not much difference in price.

The MkI can be replaced by many Moras, but the current KaBar MkI is an excellent knife if you flatten the sides a bit to take it off of round.

[Nematocyst]

Yah.

I'll take one.

[Nematocyst]

But I want the sheath almost as much as the knife.

Well, OK, only 1/2 as much. If it's like my 7"
and it looks to be, then it locks in.

Click.

[ArfinGreebly]

I recently picked up a replacement for my youngest daughter's USAF Pilot Survival knife (model 499 (http://www.ontarioknife.com/catalog/item/11)). When we lived in Scottsdale and she was -- what, 14? -- I took her to the local purv (knife shoppe) and told her to pick "anything" and that was what she chose.

It was stolen from her last year (the brother of a friend she was staying with broke into her bedroom while she was at work and stole all of her knives except the one he didn't find, sold them for drug money). I managed to find one that was a good match, and which was made the same year she was born.

I've spent an hour last week putting an edge on it. I have another of the same design by Camillus, and it's every bit as hard to put a good edge on. I probably have unrealistically high standards for how sharp a "fightin' knife" ought to be, but I find that the "classic" fighters are harder to sharpen well.

However, if we're gonna have a soft spot for military cutlery, then I'm inclined to go with hso's pick above.

That's a five-inch blade, a very manageable length, and it's flat ground. I will state with confidence that I could maintain a very slicey and serviceable edge on that blade.

My other fav among military knife designs is the P3 Quartermaster (http://www.ontarioknife.com/catalog/item/61) knife. That's another one that I'm pretty sure I could keep sharp.

. . .

All of that said, however, let's go back to the appellation "the SAK of fixed blades."

In no particular order of preference:

Finnish Puukko (also used by the Sami people)
Swedish Mora (including the Mora 2000 series)
Norwegian Helle/Brusletto

These are excellent outdoor and general purpose knives; the product of generations of woodworking and bushcraft. The blade type is often referred to as a "Scandi" or Scandinavian blade.

They are light, strong, sharp and suited to a wide range of tasks. The pattern is now being emulated the world over by people wanting to add a "bushcraft" knife to their product lines. There are a number of custom makers now doing "bushcraft" knives that show clear derivation from the Scandi knife families. You can pay $15 for a Mora or $400 for a custom bushcraft/puukko, and pretty much any price in between.

You want the "SAK" of the fixed blade world?

Go Mora/Puukko/Scandi.

[clem]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b213/clemdoggie/HPIM3429.jpg

I've had this one from the 60s.

[wheelgunslinger]

But I'm curious. Do you own such a knife? If so, why? How do you use it? How often do you use it? Is it a fav?

I'll cut to the chase: Why would someone who is not a combat specialist own this knife?

Not a fav at all. Have it because I picked it up cheap years ago and haven't thrown it in the yard sale or gun show trade pile yet. I don't really use it.

Question 2: Nostalgia. Neato factor.

[Nematocyst]

Nice post, Arf. Will look at them.
__________

Added by edit.

Arf, I just found this Mora 2000 (http://www.bensbackwoods.com/servlet/Detail?no=197) for $30.

Please help me understand why you would pick that knife over a Kabar MKI.

I'm not questioning your advice, just seeking to understand it.

[hso]

I can answer that one, Nem.

Better grip design. It is very comfortable to use, produces no hot spots, is stable in the hand.

[10thMtn]

I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for jumping in late. I have a long love-affair with this knife, not because of any real value as a fighter (much better knives have been developed since it's inception) or for its utility (there are better ones out there). I love it because it's the knife that saved my dad's life during WWII on a couple of occasions. You've got to think about it in its historical context. When we jumped into WWII, our Marines were issued old, clunky, heavy trench knives dug out of the vaults from WWI. The Kabar was a life-saver and was well-respected and wanted. So, if for anything, I have them because they're still made here in America, they're made like they used to be made, and they are part of our victory in Europe and the Pacific theaters.

[Nematocyst]

Thanks, Hso. Makes sense. I look forward to reading Arf's response, also.

10thMtn, welcome to THR. There's a reason my post count is creeping toward 11,000 and I've remained here for nearly 7 years. With a little discernment, you'll find the best advice here on many topics.

[ArfinGreebly]

Nice post, Arf. Will look at them.
__________

Added by edit.

Arf, I just found this Mora 2000 (http://www.bensbackwoods.com/servlet/Detail?no=197) for $30.

Please help me understand why you would pick that knife over a Kabar MKI.

I'm not questioning your advice, just seeking to understand it.

Couple of things, Nem.

Like hso said, the handle ergos are superior. Also, it's made of a steel (12C27 Sandvik) in which I have considerable confidence. It's really sharp. Sharp like slicing a tomato resting in the palm of my hand. I've made salads with mine, chopped up stew ingredients, prepped veggie platters, handled the post-meal processing of a turkey into usable sandwich meat, carved up roast chicken, trimmed cuts of beef & pork, opened packages, cut down heavy cardboard boxes, and done a bit of whittling with it.

It's a very good general purpose knife. It takes an edge easily and keeps it well. It's not at all prone to rust. It's light. It's small enough that it doesn't get in my way, big enough to do regular chores.

I've tried to do those things with a combat knife.

I have pretty decent skills with a knife, but I found most of the tasks awkward with the oversized blade, and the handle tended to encourage only a couple of grips. Veggie preps with a combat knife is pure entertainment; it tends to "throw" pieces of carrot and potato. Think food preps with splitting wedge.

On the other hand, I used a combat knife to trim the unwanted branches on a Christmas tree, and it did a fine job of lopping them off.

Why would I take a Mora over a combat knife? Usability. Broader application.

I trim Xmas trees once a year. I prepare food all year round. I open packages all year round.

Now, having said all that . . .

Of the various combat and dot-mil knives available, the MkI is easily my favorite design. The blade is flat ground, making it useful for a broader range of applications and easier to sharpen -- it will take a real and useful edge. It's not absurdly long, so the blade doesn't have undo leverage over my hands, meaning I'll have better control. The handle is a bit on the round side, and made for bigger mitts than mine, but it's still not bad.

Something to keep in mind is weight.

The Kabar MkI is just over 1.2 pounds (.56 Kg). The Mora 2000 is four ounces, five if you include the sheath.

I can actually get a better range of functionality from a light axe and a Mora knife than I can from a combat knife.

Hatchets like the Trail Blazer (Canada, 17.4 oz; 13 oz for the smaller one) or the Eriksson (Sweden, 18 oz), or maybe the slightly heavier Fiskars X7 (Finland, 22.6 oz).

Trail Blazer Ergo Hatchet: . . . The Smaller one: 165142 . . . 165141

Eriksson Hand Axe
(ragweedforge.com) . . . 165143

Of course a folding saw is lighter than any of those (Buck folding saw, Taiwan, under 5 oz).

Hatchet or saw? Well, if you know it will always and only be wood, then the saw. If you expect to need it in a hunting/skinning application or possibly for defense, then the hatchet.


The point is that if you're going to carry something that weighs more than a pound, it needs to be able to earn its keep, and do so in routine & mundane ways. If the venue is trenches and bleak, smoke-fogged battlefields, then a combat knife will have the edge (if you'll pardon the expression).

If the venue is the woods of Maine or the mountains somewhat further west, the knife + hatchet combo will (*koff*) have the edge.

And if the venue is daily out-and-about, then a 5-ounce compact knife that will tuck into an inside jacket pocket when it's not breaking down boxes or fixing dinner will surely be more suitable.

What about the old "throw it in my toolbox" thing? Well, I have a Mora #2 that I've had in a toolbox for most of the nearly forty years I've had it. I've never had a combat knife of any kind in a toolbox (my traveling kitchen being the exception).


At the risk of confusing the issue, let me finish with a mention of one other place where I do use a heavy knife. I have a traveling kitchen. It's a toolbox that I have pressed into service as my throw-in-car-for-long-trips kitchen utensil box. It is portable only in the sense that anything you can throw in a car is "portable" because the car carries it. In that box is an assortment of camping-friendly tools and equipment. In addition to some plain-Jane kitchen knives, hobo tools, GP camp soap, matches & fire starter, utilities knives, openers, sharpeners, compact cutting board, etc., there is a single heavy duty knife that sits all the way at the bottom. Just because. As in, just because you never know.

Gerber Harsey Hunter/Fighter
The heavy duty knife in my
traveling kitchen box . . . 165140

It's the only thing in the kitchen box that could plausibly stand in for a hatchet or be of any use as an actual weapon, and it would probably withstand being made to pry open a box or door. It's been in the box since 2005 or 2006. I take it out once in a while to admire it, show it off, or just reassure myself that it's still sharp. It's never actually been used. At all.

That same box also contains a Mora 2000. It's the first thing I reach for on the road when it's time to hack up some salami & cheese, make some celery stix, quarter an apple, or dismember a tomato. Of course, it also lives in the top tray. Shocker, I know.


Yes, the emotional draw of the MkI is greater. I have a considerable affinity for that knife. It is certainly more solid, a knife of more substance.

However, I'm not that teenager any more, and I can't just shrug off an extra twelve or sixteen ounces if I'm gonna carry it for any distance.

If I'm on foot, I have to justify every ounce. "Sentiment" is not an adequate justification for an extra pound of penalty weight. "Just in case" is something that I can get away with in a car, not so much on foot.

So, why the Mora over the MkI?

Weight, versatility, ergonomics.

[JimStC]

The amount of knowledge on THR is incredible!! I feel like I am reading an instructional book or an encyclopedia. Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge,
Jim

[Nematocyst]

That's a great essay, Arf. Thought-provoking and useful. Thanks for taking the time.

I may have a few thoughts or questions later.

[Nematocyst]

Update. I was at Wally's today (rare visit; saw my first Walmartian!), saw a Bear Grylls Sliding Saw, and bought it. May not be the quality of the Buck Folder that Arf mentioned, but I'll test it and see. From the reviews, it looks like the key is to cut small wood with it instead of full sized redwood trees. :D